WEBVTT - Teachers Disciplinary Tribunal: How misconduct is handled in teaching

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<v Speaker 1>Hilda.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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<v Speaker 2>daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There are

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<v Speaker 2>a number of employment dispute avenues in New Zealand, dependent

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<v Speaker 2>on what industry you're in. If you're one of the

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred and fourteen thousand registered teachers in this country,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to appear before something called the teacher's Disciplinary Tribunal.

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<v Speaker 2>Last year, there were five hundred and twenty four complaints,

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<v Speaker 2>mandatory reports and self reports received by the Teaching Council,

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<v Speaker 2>which is about zero point five percent of the total

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<v Speaker 2>number of teachers who held a practicing certificate. Now, while

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<v Speaker 2>it's more than twenty twenty three, which saw four hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and sixty two complaints, that accounted for just zero point

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<v Speaker 2>four percent. For the latest in our series looking at

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<v Speaker 2>how different tribunals work today on the Front Page, we're

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<v Speaker 2>joined again by Open Justice reporter Jeremy Wilkinson. So tell me, Jeremy,

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<v Speaker 2>what actually is the teacher's disciplinary Tribunal.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So, the Teacher's Disciplinary Tribunal is an arm of

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<v Speaker 3>the Teaching Council who will appoint a what's called a

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<v Speaker 3>professional conduct committee to charge or prosecute teachers before the

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<v Speaker 3>Teachers Disciplinary Tribunal, and that's for breaches of their professional obligations,

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<v Speaker 3>so that they're not breaches that are illegal in a

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<v Speaker 3>criminal context, but they are breaches of their code of ethics.

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<v Speaker 3>So that might be drug use or an inappropriate relationship

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<v Speaker 3>with a student, or in some cases they're kind of

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<v Speaker 3>taking a second bite out of the cherry. If, for example,

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<v Speaker 3>there's a teacher who's been caught drink driving and is

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<v Speaker 3>charged through the district court, then they might well, they

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<v Speaker 3>probably will end up before the Teachers Disciplinary Tribunal as

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<v Speaker 3>well because it's a brief of their code of efforts.

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<v Speaker 2>So what kind of powers does the tribunal have.

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<v Speaker 3>They can cancel a teachers registration so that that person

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<v Speaker 3>can no longer teach in New Zealand. That really only

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<v Speaker 3>happens for the most serious of breaches, but we do

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<v Speaker 3>see it happen often. We will see a suspension or

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<v Speaker 3>a fine or conditions imposed on their practice, and that

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<v Speaker 3>those conditions might be they need to complete a course

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<v Speaker 3>or have supervision while they teach, or inform a prospective

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<v Speaker 3>employer that they've had a censure or a mark against

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<v Speaker 3>them at the tribunal.

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<v Speaker 2>What kind of cases have you seen.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I've seen quite a few in my time. There's

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<v Speaker 3>a few. I think one that stands out is probably

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<v Speaker 3>Sealin Romiah. He was the Jamescott High School deputy principal

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<v Speaker 3>and he was caught sending explicit images and text messages

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<v Speaker 3>to several students and another staff member, and he actually

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<v Speaker 3>ended up in prison because one of those students was

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<v Speaker 3>under the age of sixteen.

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<v Speaker 2>Are all of the cases that the tribunal rules on

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<v Speaker 2>made public? What's the threshold for keeping a teacher's name

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<v Speaker 2>out of the public records? Say?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So my understanding was that all of the tribunal's

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<v Speaker 3>decisions are made public, but the teacher might get suppression. Basically,

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<v Speaker 3>the tribunal will maker an assessment similar to the courts,

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<v Speaker 3>about whether someone is entitled to suppression, and they'll take

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<v Speaker 3>him into account a range of things. But the decision

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<v Speaker 3>will be published, but whether that person's name is in

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<v Speaker 3>it is a different thing.

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<v Speaker 2>I saw a case recently that you reported on. It

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<v Speaker 2>was a seventeen year old girl who said she was

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<v Speaker 2>offered ten thousand dollars to drop a complaint against a

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<v Speaker 2>family friend who came into her room in the hope

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<v Speaker 2>that she would sleep with him. Now he wasn't her teacher,

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<v Speaker 2>but he was a registered teacher. She took her complaint

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<v Speaker 2>to the police, who then referred it to the Complaint's

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<v Speaker 2>Assessment Committee of the teacher's Council, which then later che

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<v Speaker 2>charge against him. So I guess this is an example

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<v Speaker 2>of the kind of case that maybe police wouldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>able to take to court and successfully convict, but the

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<v Speaker 2>council could. Is that right?

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<v Speaker 3>So the police will obviously charge someone where they can

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<v Speaker 3>where they have enough evidence too, but in some cases

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<v Speaker 3>the charge doesn't meet the threshold for a criminal charge.

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<v Speaker 3>So I suppose a good example of this is that

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<v Speaker 3>the age of consent in New Zealand is sixteen, So

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<v Speaker 3>it's not illegal for a teacher to engage in a

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<v Speaker 3>physical sexual relationship with a sixteen year old student, and

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<v Speaker 3>purely in the terms of it not being criminal, but

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<v Speaker 3>it is deeply and fundamentally ethically morally inappropriate in terms

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<v Speaker 3>of a professional conduct context, so not illegal. They wouldn't

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<v Speaker 3>be criminal criminally charged, but they would end up before

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<v Speaker 3>the teacher's disciplinary tribunal and probably lose their teaching registration

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<v Speaker 3>for it.

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<v Speaker 2>Also recently, there was an interesting case from christ Church

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<v Speaker 2>Boys High School where an ex teacher accused the headmaster

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<v Speaker 2>of leaving feces on her property on eight occasions in

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<v Speaker 2>retaliation for her raising concerns about him with the board

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<v Speaker 2>and police. Now, this case was going through the Employment

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<v Speaker 2>Relations Authority rather than the teaching council. But you then

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<v Speaker 2>have a teaching council case processed in the year to

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<v Speaker 2>June twenty twenty four where a Fielding daycare owner was

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<v Speaker 2>found guilty of serious misconduct for her behavior towards children

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<v Speaker 2>and staff members, including telling one staffer that she was

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<v Speaker 2>quote too fat to eat KFC. So what is the

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<v Speaker 2>threshold for a case to go to one tribunal over

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<v Speaker 2>another When it comes to teachers.

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<v Speaker 3>My understanding was that with the er, you needed to

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<v Speaker 3>lodge your complaint to yourself. It's not a quasi judicial

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<v Speaker 3>professional body that is prosecuting or laying charges against a

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<v Speaker 3>professional like a teacher, a doctor, or a lawyer. Instead,

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<v Speaker 3>you have a disgruntled employee who was taking their employer

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<v Speaker 3>proactively through the court. I suppose and effect the employee

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<v Speaker 3>becomes the prosecution. You know, they might hire a lawyer

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<v Speaker 3>or an employment advocate to take the case on their behalf,

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<v Speaker 3>whereas with the teacher's disciplinary tribunal, it is a professional

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<v Speaker 3>conduct committee of the Teaching Council who will lay charges

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<v Speaker 3>against a teacher for breaches of their conduct, and the

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<v Speaker 3>same way that the Medical Council as a professional conduct

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<v Speaker 3>committee or the New Zealand Law Society they have standards

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<v Speaker 3>committees who will lay charges against lawyers on behalf of

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<v Speaker 3>the law Society to take them to the lawyers and

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<v Speaker 3>conveyances disciplinary tribunal. So I suppose that's whether the difference

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<v Speaker 3>is one is person or complainant led the other side

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<v Speaker 3>is led by the professional body.

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<v Speaker 4>Nothing was done to prevent it. There were no talks

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<v Speaker 4>to students about specific things. It was just kind of

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<v Speaker 4>a don't connect with teachers on social media. There were

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<v Speaker 4>never any hard lines about it and it was really

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<v Speaker 4>up to the discretion of teachers at the end of

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<v Speaker 4>the day. I think the issue is with these apps

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<v Speaker 4>where you can erase all of the previous messages, you

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<v Speaker 4>can delete texts, you can erase cool history, snapchats disappear,

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<v Speaker 4>but having a platform where the it or the school

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<v Speaker 4>department is able to have access to those records.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's really important. I stumbled upon your reporting

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<v Speaker 2>of teachers and the use of social media. Can you

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<v Speaker 2>tell me a little bit more about that?

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<v Speaker 3>So I went through the numbers last year and looked

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<v Speaker 3>at how many inappropriate relationship cases there were before the

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<v Speaker 3>tribunal and of those, how many of those was social

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<v Speaker 3>media a factor? And so the data showed that since

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<v Speaker 3>twenty ten, there have been fifty three cases of teachers

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<v Speaker 3>using social media to groom young people in their care,

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<v Speaker 3>which makes up about sixty percent of the eighty nine

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<v Speaker 3>cases involving that type of behavior in the last fourteen years.

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<v Speaker 2>Have you spoken with anyone who feels that we need

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<v Speaker 2>some kind of law around teachers student interactions updated given

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<v Speaker 2>how social media controls our lives these days.

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<v Speaker 3>I spoke to a few people for that article. One

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<v Speaker 3>of them was Professor Michael McCauley. He's form a judge

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<v Speaker 3>from the United Kingdom, a lecture at Victoria University School

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<v Speaker 3>of Government, and he focuses on ethics and integrity with

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<v Speaker 3>his own research. He said, be really simple and not

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<v Speaker 3>really that controversial to ban social media contact between teachers

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<v Speaker 3>and students, even in a digital age where students and

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<v Speaker 3>teachers do actually need to be able to email or

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<v Speaker 3>have some kind of communication for their assignments or their

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<v Speaker 3>homework or whatever it is. Has point, I suppose was

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<v Speaker 3>that you could just have one official point of contact

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<v Speaker 3>basically so that there can be a site so that

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<v Speaker 3>the messages can't be deleted. Like we saw with Seale

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<v Speaker 3>and Remia from James Cook High School. He asked three

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<v Speaker 3>students to download Signal, which is an encrypted messaging app,

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<v Speaker 3>and the messages are deleted after a certain period of time.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's I suppose a common theme that I saw

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<v Speaker 3>among that data, with those sixty percent of those eighty

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<v Speaker 3>nine cases was that it starts with emailing in the

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<v Speaker 3>pre Facebook era, and now these days it is primarily

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<v Speaker 3>texting or Facebook or Instagram, where these teachers are starting

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<v Speaker 3>a point of contact that begins quite innocently and then

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<v Speaker 3>progresses into something that is quite deeply inappropriate.

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<v Speaker 2>When we spoke last, we talked about the length of

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<v Speaker 2>time it takes to go through the human rights justice process.

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<v Speaker 2>What's the turnaround for these cases.

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<v Speaker 3>They're a good couple of years old generally by the

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<v Speaker 3>time I see them come through into the written decision phase.

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<v Speaker 3>So what happens is they held a hearing, and that

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<v Speaker 3>hearing is it was similar to a courtroom, except a

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<v Speaker 3>lot more informal, and then the tribunal panel members will

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<v Speaker 3>go away and write a decision and a penalty for

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<v Speaker 3>the teacher and it will often be given to the

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<v Speaker 3>parties while in advance of it being made.

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<v Speaker 1>Public schools could be more than twelve hundred teachers short

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<v Speaker 1>this year with demand outstripping supply. And it's not just here.

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<v Speaker 1>Data show it's a global issue, but in New Zealand

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<v Speaker 1>the Ministry is projecting it's twelve hundred and fifty teachers

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<v Speaker 1>short of what's needed.

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<v Speaker 5>Ali Mattia used to be adopted. Now she wants to

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<v Speaker 5>be here inspiring the next generation to pursue science.

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<v Speaker 6>Being able to teach academics or especially a subject that

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<v Speaker 6>I'm passionate about, but also being able to mentor students.

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<v Speaker 6>I feel like that just adds another layer of value

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<v Speaker 6>and impact to the students.

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<v Speaker 5>High schools are said to face a teacher's shortage through

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<v Speaker 5>to twenty twenty seven. According to the Education Ministries modeling.

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<v Speaker 5>We have very few qualified applicants who have the right

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<v Speaker 5>set of skills to be able to teach our school

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<v Speaker 5>for any position.

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<v Speaker 2>When you're ever reviewing these kind of cases, Jeremy, does

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<v Speaker 2>it ever feel like there should be more standards in

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<v Speaker 2>place for teachers or even just better checks and balances

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<v Speaker 2>around who actually becomes a teacher?

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<v Speaker 3>The Teachers Counsel I think they do a really good

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<v Speaker 3>job of vetting teachers before they enter the profession. And

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<v Speaker 3>the Teachers Council will be the first to say that

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<v Speaker 3>the people who end up before the tribunal are a

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<v Speaker 3>really small minority, and it is something that they stress

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<v Speaker 3>when we ask them questions about people who have been

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<v Speaker 3>suspended or had their registration canceled.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, of course, I mean how many cases do we

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<v Speaker 2>see on average a year, say just off the top

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<v Speaker 2>of your head, because there's more than you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>over one hundred thousand registered teachers or something like that

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<v Speaker 2>in New Zealand.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, we might see on average around thirty thirty decisions

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<v Speaker 3>a year. To throw an number out, to just throw

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<v Speaker 3>a number out that seems about right, and we would

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<v Speaker 3>cover actually quite a small percentage of those. So there

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<v Speaker 3>are several decisions that have been uploaded this year, for example,

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<v Speaker 3>which involve teachers who have struck a child. But it

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<v Speaker 3>might be in quite a minor way, so they might

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<v Speaker 3>have pulled on their shirt, you know, to get them

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<v Speaker 3>to stop misbehaving or to direct them somewhere, and you're

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<v Speaker 3>not allowed to You're not allowed to do that in

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<v Speaker 3>New Zealand anymore. You're not allowed to lay your hands

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<v Speaker 3>on a child in that way. But does it make

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<v Speaker 3>media threshold for us to cover in most cases, No,

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<v Speaker 3>unless it's quite severe.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for joining us, Jeremy no Worrith no Worth. That's

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<v Speaker 2>it for this episode of the Front Page. You can

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<v Speaker 2>read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at

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<v Speaker 2>enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page, which is

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<v Speaker 2>produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also

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<v Speaker 2>a sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front

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<v Speaker 2>Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and

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<v Speaker 2>tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.