Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2: And welcome back to the show. This is the Weekend
Speaker 2: Collective and I'm Tim Beverage and this is the Health Hub.
Speaker 2: We want your we'd love to have your cause on
Speaker 2: this on ten eighteen text. But this health Hub is
Speaker 2: a sort of bit of a special health hub because
Speaker 2: August is well known as the Cancer Society's big fundraising month.
Speaker 2: Again it's once again it's supported by A and Z
Speaker 2: and Daffodil Day is well, it's it's not too far away.
Speaker 2: It's Friday, the thirtieth of August. But you don't have
Speaker 2: to wait till then. If you're in a position to
Speaker 2: help the one in three Kiwis who are affected by cancer,
Speaker 2: you can actually donate now. You can text the word
Speaker 2: donate two two double four to two. Okay, so the
Speaker 2: number is two double four to two. You text the
Speaker 2: word donate and then what happens is you'll get a
Speaker 2: link and you can select your donation amount and the
Speaker 2: donations from Kiwi's help with research into all sorts of cancers.
Speaker 2: And it's a Daffodil Day soon, so good time to
Speaker 2: find a bit more about that research. So joining us
Speaker 2: in the studio is a very special guest. He's a
Speaker 2: past director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center. I'm
Speaker 2: going to read a bit of his CV out. Then
Speaker 2: we're going to dig into a bit more about Professor
Speaker 2: Sibil Denny. But his interests include the design and evaluation
Speaker 2: of small molecule drugs. He's been involved in the development
Speaker 2: of fourteen drugs to clinical trial. He'll be embarrassed if
Speaker 2: I read out as awards, but he's got a few.
Speaker 2: He's serve build Any. For a start, he's received the
Speaker 2: Rutherford Medal of the Royal Society of New Zealand, the
Speaker 2: Adrian Albert Meda of the UK Royal Society of Chemistry,
Speaker 2: in the twenty fourteen Medicinal Chemistry Award of the American
Speaker 2: Chemical Society. Anyway, I think the gist is if you've
Speaker 2: got some questions, or you're interested in the science and
Speaker 2: the development of cancer cures and technology and research, then
Speaker 2: this is the hour for you. So joining me in
Speaker 2: the studios, Professor to bild Any, I'm just going to
Speaker 2: call you Bill, good Bill, how are you.
Speaker 3: I'm fine, that's the best way to do it.
Speaker 2: Excellent. Firstly, just to find out a bit about you.
Speaker 2: I mean, I did read out the awards because I
Speaker 2: thought we should we should start by polishing your apple
Speaker 2: a little bit. But how did you you have you've
Speaker 2: recently retired and you've had a lengthy career. But how
Speaker 2: did you get started in science full stop?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 3: I got started in science because I was always interested
Speaker 3: in chemistry for some particular reason, even when I was
Speaker 3: a child, and I remember I collected my own group
Speaker 3: of chemicals and I had to shed out the back
Speaker 3: which I made explosions and various dangerous things. My parents
Speaker 3: were very accepting of that, and I followed that right
Speaker 3: through into into school and then into university and ended
Speaker 3: up at the University of Oxford, where I spent three years.
Speaker 3: And at that particular, at the end of that time,
Speaker 3: we started to look around for jobs for me in
Speaker 3: the UK, and I was expecting to go maybe into
Speaker 3: a pharmaceutical company there, and then I got a call
Speaker 3: from someone, and it was a letter in those days
Speaker 3: from Bruce Kane, who was then director of the Auckland
Speaker 3: Kancer Society Research Center, wanted to know if I would
Speaker 3: like to come back and join the center.
Speaker 2: So how did you go from sort of it sounds
Speaker 2: like you're blowing things up in your shed, a little
Speaker 2: bit like Sir Peter Beck, except you didn't go into rockets.
Speaker 2: You went into into sort of medicinal chemistry. When when
Speaker 2: did you When did your interest refine from you know,
Speaker 2: your initial undergraduate studies of doing I'm guessing you did chemistry.
Speaker 2: When did that refine into something that became useful for
Speaker 2: medical research?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 3: I thought I was interested in chemistry because of what
Speaker 3: you can do with it and how you can develop
Speaker 3: new molecules, and that was what I was doing in Oxford.
Speaker 3: And when I got the I hadn't really thought about
Speaker 3: cancer research until I got the letter from Bruce Kane
Speaker 3: asking me would I like to join the Cancer Research
Speaker 3: Center because they were developing new drugs therapy. How long
Speaker 3: ago was that, Oh, nineteen sixty, I'm nineteen seventy something.
Speaker 2: Like that, criky.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a long journey, but a very very
Speaker 3: rewarding one.
Speaker 2: And what was the state of cancer research and treatment
Speaker 2: back when you started.
Speaker 3: Well, it was a lot less effective than it is
Speaker 3: now because in the last twenty thirty years, a lot
Speaker 3: of work going on into developing drugs which are not
Speaker 3: simply sell killing agents, but more or less this is
Speaker 3: designed to select and treat specific cancers, so there's a
Speaker 3: much more specificity now in the therapy.
Speaker 2: What's the most It might be difficult to answer them
Speaker 2: these questions because you've had such a lengthy career, but
Speaker 2: is there anything that stands out to you through the
Speaker 2: course of your career as being the most exciting sort
Speaker 2: of development or the most a real moment where you've
Speaker 2: got got where you've thought this is, this is this
Speaker 2: is a real game changer when it comes to treating cancer.
Speaker 3: It is a difficult question to answer, probably whenever we
Speaker 3: succeed in getting a new drugs through into clinical trial,
Speaker 3: probably because we've spent ten fifteen years working on refining
Speaker 3: that to the stage where it has been accepted by
Speaker 3: the authorities and can be used in Man. And for example,
Speaker 3: we have now a drug and trial in Auckland Hospital
Speaker 3: Tarlocksotten which has been developed by a couple of people
Speaker 3: in the lab and that's taken them ten years to
Speaker 3: get it to this point. So getting a drug over
Speaker 3: the line the authority is accepted into even the first
Speaker 3: stage trials is a big moment for everybody.
Speaker 2: Uh, and what's that drug particularly, what's this, what's what's
Speaker 2: that one about? What's the named treating.
Speaker 3: We're still working that out. But the drugs drug is
Speaker 3: one of a particular type which we call a it's
Speaker 3: it's a pro drug in the sense that when you
Speaker 3: give it cancer drug to people, the drug distributes everywhere
Speaker 3: in the body and you end up with the side
Speaker 3: effects that are inevitable from drug treatment because it doesn't
Speaker 3: all it doesn't just go to the cancer. So with
Speaker 3: this with tarsott is a pro drug which is circulates
Speaker 3: all the around than the body, but it's relatively non
Speaker 3: toxic and it's only when it gets into the low
Speaker 3: oxygen regions of tumors that it turns itself on.
Speaker 2: To be toxic. Okay, So in other words, from the
Speaker 2: from the layperson's point of view, I've always under does
Speaker 2: it still come under the headline of chemotherapy? Oh, it
Speaker 2: is certainly that because chema. Well, actually, let's just so
Speaker 2: people know, because chemotherapy in a way has a stigma
Speaker 2: because you think you're up for chemotherapy. Therefore saygabidy, you'rre here,
Speaker 2: sagabidy your health and hopefully the drug will just kill
Speaker 2: your disease rather than you would be. Some people's fear
Speaker 2: about chemotherapy, and is this one where it's more targeted? Well,
Speaker 2: what is chemotherapy, I'll interrupt myself.
Speaker 3: Human therapy is simply the treatment of cancer with small
Speaker 3: molecular drugs. Okay, So, and as you say, those drugs
Speaker 3: generally distribute everywhere in the body, and they do damage
Speaker 3: to normal cells as well. I mean, perhaps still lesser extent,
Speaker 3: but in the general course of events, you do get
Speaker 3: side effects because the drug is distributed everywhere. It's killing
Speaker 3: cancer cells, but there's also a concombatant cell kill in
Speaker 3: various other areas in the body, especially where cells are
Speaker 3: turning over rapidly.
Speaker 2: That in a way would that be I'm going to
Speaker 2: ask some dumb questions, by the way, because I'm not
Speaker 2: a scientist, But to me, over the last few years,
Speaker 2: I've got the impression that the treatments that are available
Speaker 2: are more and more about just the drugs being smarter
Speaker 2: and being able to what you're saying is a pro
Speaker 2: what did you say pro so? In other words, so
Speaker 2: it's not that's not just we're going to carpet bomb everything.
Speaker 2: Now it's a bit more precision sort of targeting, and
Speaker 2: is that maybe the biggest advance, one of the bigger
Speaker 2: advances in chemotherapy.
Speaker 3: There's two sorts of advances along the lines that you
Speaker 3: say is we're developing molecules that are much more specific
Speaker 3: for particular cancer types, and so that means we can
Speaker 3: develop drugs to target cancer A or cancer B. And
Speaker 3: it's a different drug. It's not simply we've got six
Speaker 3: drugs and we give it to every patient. But the
Speaker 3: other thing is, as we've said before, drugs, once they
Speaker 3: get into the body distribute everywhere, and so the idea
Speaker 3: of a pro drug is to have it inactive until
Speaker 3: it enters the tumor cells. And we managed to do
Speaker 3: that by recognizing that in tumors there is very low
Speaker 3: oxygen levels. So if you can design a drug which
Speaker 3: is not active in high oxygen levels but active in
Speaker 3: low oxygen levels, then you will target cancer specifically. And
Speaker 3: this is one of the major areas of interest in
Speaker 3: our laboratory.
Speaker 2: When so you talked about the colleagues who have developed this,
Speaker 2: it's going to clinical trials. So clinical trials means it's
Speaker 2: going to go into people. Is that right, that's correct.
Speaker 3: There are three sorts of clinical trials. The first stage
Speaker 3: one where you're simply evaluating the drug in people to
Speaker 3: be concerned about toxicity efforts and things like that.
Speaker 2: Yep. And what's stage two?
Speaker 3: Stage two really is when you give the drug to
Speaker 3: a larger number of people, but all with one specific
Speaker 3: cancer type, so you can see whether this has general
Speaker 3: effects beneficial effects in the cancer itself.
Speaker 2: And stage three is three is what when it's basically
Speaker 2: a larger proportion of people.
Speaker 3: Or Stage three as rall is that it's a larger
Speaker 3: proportion of people, usually around one thousand people, So you
Speaker 3: want a broad spectrum of people with this particular disease
Speaker 3: to see whether the drug is consistently effected.
Speaker 2: And is that usually the stage where you're you're pretty
Speaker 2: confident that it's a safe drug. You just want to
Speaker 2: see how effective it is or is it still considering
Speaker 2: issues of safety.
Speaker 3: You've always been You've always got to consider issues of
Speaker 3: safety because cancer drugs are generally designed to kill cells. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and so with that, your safety has always got to
Speaker 3: be a major concern.
Speaker 2: Okay, So in the journey of from ten years from
Speaker 2: developing a drug to going on clinical trials, what what
Speaker 2: is the first year or two of that sort of
Speaker 2: research look like, is it again dumb questions? But is
Speaker 2: it sort of Petri dish sort of stuff?
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely it is.
Speaker 2: It's okay.
Speaker 3: The chemist are in their lab devising all these interesting
Speaker 3: new molecules that are new and they look exciting and
Speaker 3: they're interesting to make. Then we test them all in cells,
Speaker 3: just in cells and a petri dish, and most of
Speaker 3: them fall over at that point, and.
Speaker 2: Now they basically don't do what they've got. Do you
Speaker 2: have some tumors or something you introduce a drug to
Speaker 2: correct and you go, let's see what happens, and you know, oh,
Speaker 2: that didn't work.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I mean that's an awful lot of
Speaker 3: what goes on in the lab. No, this didn't work.
Speaker 3: Let's do something.
Speaker 2: Else if you But just another dumb question. I'm going
Speaker 2: to specialize in dumb questions. So when you are say,
Speaker 2: you talk about having drugs that can thrive in a
Speaker 2: low oxygen environment and that's those are the ones that
Speaker 2: are going to target the cells. Does that mean what
Speaker 2: sort of if you're doing it in a petri dish?
Speaker 2: That sounds like it'd be quite a challenge because you
Speaker 2: don't want to introduce oxygen at that stage either do
Speaker 2: you you want it to have a low oxygen environment
Speaker 2: in that peatra dish? So does that mean that the
Speaker 2: equipment you've what does that mean in terms of equipment?
Speaker 3: Or you can simply put the peachradish in a low
Speaker 3: oxygen environment?
Speaker 2: Yeah? What's a low oxygen environment?
Speaker 3: Or oxygen levels below about one or two percent?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 2: I mean that is that just so? Is that in
Speaker 2: a specific chamber or something stripped out of there?
Speaker 3: We have the equipment to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, before my brain needs a rest and
Speaker 2: a cup of teaen to lie down, one more question
Speaker 2: and we'll take your cause. By the way, if you've
Speaker 2: got any questions around the science or if for professor
Speaker 2: Sir Bill Denny, then this is your chance. Because we
Speaker 2: a lot of the time when we do we talk
Speaker 2: about health and cancer treatments and all sorts of things
Speaker 2: on talkback. We don't have an expert in the room.
Speaker 2: So we've got one and now so you can give
Speaker 2: him a call. He's not a doctor, by the way,
Speaker 2: in terms of a medical doctor. It's about the science
Speaker 2: of developing molecules to treat cancers. If you've got any questions,
Speaker 2: we'd love to hear from you. On eight hundred and
Speaker 2: eighty ten eighty. By the way, I'm going to mention
Speaker 2: it a few times probably, But if you want to
Speaker 2: donate to for Daffodil Day, and it's thirtieth of August,
Speaker 2: but rarely from now on, it's open. It's supported by
Speaker 2: A and Z. All you need to do is text
Speaker 2: the word donate to two four four two and there'll
Speaker 2: be link you'll get and you can select your donation amount. Actually,
Speaker 2: I'll come back with my interesting question about where we're
Speaker 2: at in terms of New Zealand research in just a moment.
Speaker 2: But this is the health up on the Weekend Collective.
Speaker 2: It's twenty past four. News Talk said, b give us
Speaker 2: a caller, you can text your question.
Speaker 4: Don't show over, don't colder, don't stuck caring.
Speaker 2: He mean welcome, you're not and welcome back to the
Speaker 2: health Hub. I'm Tim Beverage and this is this is
Speaker 2: a health hub looking forward to Daffodil Day on the
Speaker 2: thirtieth of August. And my guess is Professor of Bill Denny.
Speaker 2: He's former director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center
Speaker 2: and we're just chatting basically about the scientific advancements when
Speaker 2: it comes to treating cancers. But of course if you
Speaker 2: want to support the work that has done to address
Speaker 2: the challenge that cancer presents to right around New Zealand,
Speaker 2: then you can text two four four two in the
Speaker 2: word donate tense text donate to two four four two.
Speaker 2: You'll get a link and you can select your donation amount. Bill.
Speaker 2: How good are we in New Zealand at cancer research?
Speaker 3: Well, I think we're very good, and I'm not speaking
Speaker 3: just about our own research center, but there are groups
Speaker 3: the Madigan Institute, there are groups in the University of
Speaker 3: Otago which are carrying out a large number of which
Speaker 3: are covering a large number of areas in cancer research,
Speaker 3: which is a very broad area. So we've got in
Speaker 3: most of the universities, we've got groups that are very
Speaker 3: important and hooked up with groups overseas as well.
Speaker 2: Has there been a big change in terms of science
Speaker 2: ific research in our capabilities in New Zealand. So for instance,
Speaker 2: I mean the analogy i'd use as everyone assumes that
Speaker 2: everything a lot of the big advancements happen in Europe
Speaker 2: or America. But of course now we've got on the
Speaker 2: rocket science thing we've got. I mean, that's an obvious thing.
Speaker 2: But does that reflect generally the science community in New
Speaker 2: Zealand that actually, you know what, we are punching well
Speaker 2: above our weight.
Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say that very hard to
Speaker 3: it's very hard to evaluate. We can't evaluate ourselves easily
Speaker 3: against the United States, for example, because we're very small
Speaker 3: and they're very big, but we have a presence there certainly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, are there what are the things that I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know if you can talk about the research
Speaker 2: that you're most excited about now, because I know a
Speaker 2: lot of it's technical. But are there particular developments going
Speaker 2: on now which you think, Wow, this is really pretty
Speaker 2: amazing or is it just every time a drug comes
Speaker 2: to trial you go, there's another victory that's exciting.
Speaker 3: I think the research is much more targeted now because
Speaker 3: we know so much more about the myriad enzymes that
Speaker 3: are present in cells which sometimes go crazy, and we
Speaker 3: can target them much more specifically. For example, there are
Speaker 3: about one hundred different kinase enzymes and there are people
Speaker 3: developing drugs specifically for each one of those. So I
Speaker 3: think in future the drugs will even will be even
Speaker 3: better targeted than they are. Now we've made a big
Speaker 3: advance in that already are there.
Speaker 2: While you're becoming more targeted with the drugs that you're creating,
Speaker 2: does that mean that each drug you're creating treats fewer
Speaker 2: cancers though they're more specific to each type of cancer.
Speaker 2: So if you're a cancer suffering, you've got to again
Speaker 2: dumb questions. So chemotherapy seemed to me, in my lay understanding,
Speaker 2: to be something that was more broadly. You might have
Speaker 2: one chemotherapy that would targets several different cancers. I don't know,
Speaker 2: But now you've got this particular chemotherapy which is targeted
Speaker 2: for this particular cancer. That's your drug.
Speaker 3: We're going down that line. I mean, that is exactly
Speaker 3: the area in which is being developed most vigously at
Speaker 3: the moment. There's a large number of new drugs are
Speaker 3: coming out. They're very specific for particular cell types, they're
Speaker 3: very specific for particular enzymes, and so speaking, now it's
Speaker 3: much easier to rapidly determine which enzymes in a particular
Speaker 3: cancer has gone haywire and select the drugs that can
Speaker 3: treat that. So treatment is much more selective much more
Speaker 3: patient selective than it than it was before.
Speaker 2: Okay, how do you how do you fund your research?
Speaker 2: How do you get the money for it? Is it
Speaker 2: things like Daffidilt Day? Where does the money come from?
Speaker 3: Certainly the Cancer Society Auckland Cancer Society has set up
Speaker 3: the center in the first place and has always been
Speaker 3: a significant funder of it. But we also raise our
Speaker 3: own funding through writing, writing grants for applications, and in
Speaker 3: particular we've also had close relationships with several big pharmaceutical
Speaker 3: companies who've been interested in the particular compounds we're developing,
Speaker 3: and we've had a good support from them as well.
Speaker 3: So we have a range of support from different areas.
Speaker 2: What role does do What role does the charitable side
Speaker 2: play when it comes to initiatives like Daffodil Day? How
Speaker 2: important is the biggest thing about the money you raise
Speaker 2: or is it more the awareness or is it a
Speaker 2: package of the whole lot? In terms of this, what
Speaker 2: daffodil Daffodil Day means well, deafit to.
Speaker 3: Day is critical for the cancer societies because they do
Speaker 3: lots of things other than just support our center. They
Speaker 3: also run the main lodge here in Auckland where patients
Speaker 3: who are receiving treatment can get free board, and they
Speaker 3: support a fleet of nurses who go around to treat
Speaker 3: people at home with follow up therapy. So there's a
Speaker 3: lot of things that they do in a part apart
Speaker 3: from partially funding the center.
Speaker 2: Does the treatment of cancers mean that also that cancers
Speaker 2: can more cancers can be treated. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2: We still do we still have the four stage model
Speaker 2: of cancer one stage one, two, three, and four, And
Speaker 2: does it are we able to treat cancers later effectively?
Speaker 3: That's getting a little bit outside my expertise, but my
Speaker 3: sense is that that is certainly true. The drugs with it,
Speaker 3: there are more drugs, they're more specific to particular targets,
Speaker 3: and so you could if you can combine a number
Speaker 3: of drugs to best target a particular cancer in a patience,
Speaker 3: then that is that is an advance.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I've got a few texts here which may or
Speaker 2: maybe either in or outside of your area of expertise,
Speaker 2: because when people hear doctor sud BUILDINGI, they think that
Speaker 2: they think that maybe you're going to give them a
Speaker 2: diagnosis on And I'll point out to anyone who's texting
Speaker 2: that we I'll read some of the texts and if
Speaker 2: we can answer them, sure, then then maybe some threat
Speaker 2: of conversation will come out of them. So brace yourself. Okay, Oh,
Speaker 2: this one's just an observation. Relates to my previous comment.
Speaker 2: I have a friend who has stage four cancer. I
Speaker 2: believe that used to be pretty much that much a
Speaker 2: death sentence. But how times have changed and medicine has
Speaker 2: improved that you can survive that level of cancer. And
Speaker 2: that's sort of what we're saying. Isn't it even a
Speaker 2: stage four cancer?
Speaker 3: I would agree with that. Yeah, I think across the
Speaker 3: spectrum there are more and better drugs that are more selective.
Speaker 3: Although there's a limit to how many drugs can be
Speaker 3: funded obviously, but looking at the field as a whole,
Speaker 3: we're better off now than we've ever been in terms
Speaker 3: of a bib ability to treat the disease.
Speaker 2: Do you think what you get to a stage? Again?
Speaker 2: I know you probably won't like guesswork because you're a scientist. Actually, okay,
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask a dumb question. How much when
Speaker 2: it comes to establishing a clinical trial is a scientist
Speaker 2: going I see this works here, this has worked, This
Speaker 2: has been an installary research, and it's pretty much you
Speaker 2: just switch on that creative part of your brain. I
Speaker 2: wonder if that drug might work here. In other words,
Speaker 2: in the early stages, how much guesswork is there as
Speaker 2: opposed to just evidence, evidence, evidence evidence. Therefore, we're going
Speaker 2: to do this next. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of guesswork. Oh, I think
Speaker 3: you have to have you have to have guesswork inspired
Speaker 3: guess work is the basis of science.
Speaker 2: Well, well, it's because let's try this that doesn't work,
Speaker 2: and therefore that doesn't work. Okay, so oh good, because
Speaker 2: I was relieved. That was one of my dumb questions.
Speaker 3: Again, No, it's that's that's the essence of science.
Speaker 2: Well, because this is a slightly broader question. But where
Speaker 2: I was chatting with we're talking about career choices with kids,
Speaker 2: and and there was a comment made I think it
Speaker 2: was I'm not going to get involved in politics, don't
Speaker 2: worry that. There was a comment made about from our
Speaker 2: prime minister that the arts might need to take a
Speaker 2: bit of a back seat, and I was thinking, well,
Speaker 2: hang on a minute. Even some of our greatest scientific
Speaker 2: minds have a creative bent. Because you have to have
Speaker 2: those creative moments where you think were you're thinking outside
Speaker 2: the box. In fact, science has to be thinking outside
Speaker 2: the box all the time, isn't it right?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's where the great changes come from.
Speaker 2: Oh god, that's a relief to Okay, this is a
Speaker 2: specific one. I'm not sure if you've able to help,
Speaker 2: but I'll read it anyway. Hi, thank you for your time.
Speaker 2: What further research are you aware of any research that's
Speaker 2: been done with pre existing vulva liken slerosis and high
Speaker 2: time risk of vulver cancer with this autoimmune disease? How
Speaker 2: common is that cancer and is there any research going
Speaker 2: into it that you know about.
Speaker 3: I don't know of that cancer, which seems to me
Speaker 3: to be relatively rare. Therefore, I really don't know what
Speaker 3: research is going into that specific area. I'm sorry, I can't.
Speaker 2: No, that's all right. What about prostate cancer? Do you
Speaker 2: know much about what's going on with because that because
Speaker 2: there's the big debate that you people say, oh, well,
Speaker 2: you're better you die with prostate cancer than treat it,
Speaker 2: and is the care you are better? Are there any
Speaker 2: anything particular in prostate cancer that's going on right now?
Speaker 3: Look? I don't specifically know of unique treatments for prostate cancer.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can't really answer that question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, here's one about just thought of a good question,
Speaker 2: specific drugs coming out, Will we see them or will
Speaker 2: they be out of reach of New Zealanders because of pricing?
Speaker 2: And I guess that's in asure around farmac. But any
Speaker 2: comment on that, well.
Speaker 3: The only comment is that the more drugs that are
Speaker 3: collectively developed wherever they're developed, that are more and more specific,
Speaker 3: the better it is for everybody. The question of whether
Speaker 3: we can afford it is really a completely different question,
Speaker 3: and we would I mean, obviously we prefer to have
Speaker 3: a vigorous research area. Yeah, that is exploring everything. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but price then becomes a problem.
Speaker 2: I know, Well you mentioned that, so you get funding
Speaker 2: from a variety of resources. And as you say, you
Speaker 2: mentioned that Daffodil Days about doing so much more for
Speaker 2: the cancer Society, supporting people when their need accommodation and
Speaker 2: to visit centers for cancer treatment and that holistic sort
Speaker 2: of support I guess for cancer suffers in their families.
Speaker 2: By the way, I'm going to keep plugging this if
Speaker 2: you want to text two four four two text the
Speaker 2: word donate and you can click a link and select
Speaker 2: your donation for Daffodil Day, which may be on Friday,
Speaker 2: the thirtieth of August. But you can get stuck into
Speaker 2: it right now. And I've completely forgotten the question I
Speaker 2: was going to ask there. Maybe that's a that's a
Speaker 2: moment for me to take a break and I'll come
Speaker 2: and work out what i was going to ask, because
Speaker 2: I've got a truck load of questions. If you have
Speaker 2: any questions for Professor Sir Bill Denny, he's former director
Speaker 2: of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center, you can call
Speaker 2: or text now eight hundred eighty ten eighty or text
Speaker 2: nine two niney two and back in a moment. It's
Speaker 2: twenty four minutes to five News talks 'b Yes, and
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Speaker 1: Helping you get on top of your busy life. Tim
Speaker 1: Beveridge on the Weekend Collector News.
Speaker 2: Talk said, be yes and welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2: This is the Health Hub and my guest is a
Speaker 2: special guest, professor Sir Bill Denny. He's former director of
Speaker 2: the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center. And the reason that
Speaker 2: Bill's with me is to have a chat about the
Speaker 2: science and just to help us get a bit more
Speaker 2: of an understanding of their amazing work that our New
Speaker 2: Zealand scientists are doing. And also that the Cancer Society does,
Speaker 2: and that to that end, with Daffodil Day approaching on
Speaker 2: the Friday the thirtieth, I'm going to keep pushing this
Speaker 2: that you text the word donate to two four four two.
Speaker 2: You can click the link and select your donation now.
Speaker 2: And as Bill was saying earlier on that the work
Speaker 2: of the Cancer Society is so important and funding from
Speaker 2: Daffodil Day because it's not just we're not just about
Speaker 2: supporting science, it's about supporting the holistic needs of families
Speaker 2: and the cancer sufferers who have to travel or whatever
Speaker 2: around people who do with that what is still a
Speaker 2: very challenging illness despite the scientific advances. So Bill, a
Speaker 2: quick question for you is such a thing as a
Speaker 2: quick question? I don't know you mentioned that the funding,
Speaker 2: so you know, the funding from that you apply for
Speaker 2: from government and for different funds, but sometimes you get
Speaker 2: funded by pharmaceutical companies. What makes does it? What does
Speaker 2: it mean once a pharmaceutical company funds something, does that
Speaker 2: mean that they take complete ownership of the results of
Speaker 2: that as well? Or how does that all work in
Speaker 2: Because most people's concern is, oh, those pharmaceutical companies are
Speaker 2: going to put the price up in we're never going
Speaker 2: to be afford our treatment. But of course we need
Speaker 2: their money to fund the research too, don't we.
Speaker 3: We do, And it's only the companies that have the
Speaker 3: funding to take drugs through the necessary government mandated processes
Speaker 3: before it can become available to the public. And that,
Speaker 3: you know, for doing the stage three trials for a
Speaker 3: new drug is one hundred million US dollars and so
Speaker 3: that can't be funded by well, the scientific groups.
Speaker 2: Goodness, we get.
Speaker 3: We have had in the past very productive collaborations with
Speaker 3: pharmaceutical companies who've come in to us and said, we're
Speaker 3: interested in the sort of work that we see you've
Speaker 3: been doing from your publications. We have things in the
Speaker 3: same area. Could we do some work together, and then
Speaker 3: we get funded to do that, We build our relationships
Speaker 3: with those companies and it's all positive all round.
Speaker 5: Man.
Speaker 2: That's a lot of money, isn't it.
Speaker 3: But yes, well, I mean we can get a drug
Speaker 3: to phase one perhaps, but phase two, phase three, the
Speaker 3: companies have to do that.
Speaker 2: How much just okay, one hundred million for stage three trials,
Speaker 2: what's it cost for stage four?
Speaker 3: Well? Really, then you're stage three is really the major
Speaker 3: last stage that's required before a drug will get registered. Okay,
Speaker 3: So there are stage four trials when there are really
Speaker 3: their retrospective trials of drugs that.
Speaker 2: Are already okay, right, so stage three is the important one.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 2: If New Zealand scientists are developing a drug which is
Speaker 2: effective in treating cancer and it's been funded by a
Speaker 2: big pharmaceutical company, does the fact that it's been invented
Speaker 2: or developed by New Zealand technology, does that mean that
Speaker 2: it's more it's ease more easily accessible by New Zealand
Speaker 2: patients or does that have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's possible to do that because often
Speaker 3: we will only get involved with a pharmaceutical company and
Speaker 3: at the stages where we can't do any more work,
Speaker 3: we can't the sort of work that's required to do.
Speaker 3: We can't fund one hundred million dollars for a stage
Speaker 3: three trial, so it has to be taken over by
Speaker 3: the companies to do that.
Speaker 2: Is there and what recent technology is there that's allowed
Speaker 2: researchers to be more effective with their research? Is there
Speaker 2: sort of hardware that's made your job easier?
Speaker 3: Yes, The hardware gets better and better each time. There's
Speaker 3: also a much better availability of being able to find
Speaker 3: out what other people are doing through the Internet, and
Speaker 3: so we can collaborate much more easily than we used
Speaker 3: to do. I mean, in my early days, I spent
Speaker 3: hundreds of hours flying to different parts of the world
Speaker 3: to talk with other people, and now it can all
Speaker 3: be done at home, which is much of an advantage.
Speaker 2: Of the Magic Zoom meeting. So you guys could consider. Actually,
Speaker 2: I was just wondering how things would have been interrupted
Speaker 2: during the whole isolation phase of COVID. I guess how
Speaker 2: did what happened in the science community around that time, I.
Speaker 3: Think slowed down quite a bit. You still have to
Speaker 3: work together at some point, side by side. You couldn't
Speaker 3: do that.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's take let's take a call Liz.
Speaker 5: Hello you Hi Dea, Hello dear. Something that I heard
Speaker 5: was that Massy University had was working on some enzymes,
Speaker 5: as I understand it, that will stop cancer metastasizing. Do
Speaker 5: you know?
Speaker 2: Okay, yep, yeah, Sorry, your lines a bit dodgy there, Liz,
Speaker 2: But I think Liz was saying, she said that Massive
Speaker 2: is doing something about stopping research that's on something that
Speaker 2: stops cancers from metastasizing. You've got any inside running on that.
Speaker 3: No, I'm afraid I haven't. I haven't heard of that.
Speaker 3: I don't know of the specific work that you're talking about. Sorry.
Speaker 2: No, hey, the other thing you mentioned when we were
Speaker 2: chatting in the break A couple of things. But you
Speaker 2: guys using the same sort of technology using for cancer,
Speaker 2: you're doing something on tuberculosis. Is that right?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 3: It is. I mean that was I had a chance
Speaker 3: meeting with the director of the Global Fund for Tuberculosis
Speaker 3: in New York a few years back, two thousand and eight,
Speaker 3: and we got together and he and just decided we
Speaker 3: would Although we were focused and funded to do cancer,
Speaker 3: we have the same technologies we have can apply to
Speaker 3: other diseases. And provided that we got that totally funded
Speaker 3: by them and no one else other cancerciety was happy
Speaker 3: with us doing that.
Speaker 2: So is this a treatment? Is not a prevention, it's
Speaker 2: a treatment.
Speaker 3: This is a treatment. Yeah, I mean the cancer I
Speaker 3: mean tuberculosis has kills normally one hundred, I mean between
Speaker 3: one to two million people of the year every around
Speaker 3: the world. And the treatment for late stage disease, which
Speaker 3: is which is often what it is when it's when
Speaker 3: people present has been very very difficult. Or recently we've
Speaker 3: been working with the Global Alliance for TV it developed
Speaker 3: a drug TBJ eight seven six it's got no better
Speaker 3: name yet, which is now and we're now in clinical
Speaker 3: trials worldwide and it's clearly effective.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: And the cure rates have gone from thirty five percent
Speaker 3: when this is drug is used up to about ninety
Speaker 3: five percent.
Speaker 2: God, that must be I mean, that must be quite
Speaker 2: a thrill when you.
Speaker 3: So that for us, although it's off our major them,
Speaker 3: for the scientists involved, it's a major it's a major thing.
Speaker 3: We are very very proud of it.
Speaker 2: I guess the other thing we were chatting out the
Speaker 2: break is that it's you know, the New Zealanders tend
Speaker 2: to be pretty modest and obviously you're not going to
Speaker 2: talk about your own successes. But now that you've retired,
Speaker 2: you can talk about the people who are still involved
Speaker 2: in cancer research in New Zealand. I mean, what would
Speaker 2: you how? Our scientists are pretty awesome, aren't they.
Speaker 3: It's almost impossible to judge when you're judging yourself. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but I would say the answer that is absolutely correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean we're a very small group. We've delivered seventeen
Speaker 3: new drugs to clinical trials.
Speaker 2: That's pretty I think that's a big deal. Is it fair?
Speaker 2: You might not look like this comparison, but for instance,
Speaker 2: apparently in per capita we're the best Olympic nation in
Speaker 2: the world. Are we sort of pretty awesome when it
Speaker 2: came in that similar respect when it comes to science
Speaker 2: and cancer development treatments.
Speaker 3: I think that's a very hard call to make.
Speaker 2: Well, of course, it's not comparing apples with oranges or
Speaker 2: something apples with apples. I guess quick question here before
Speaker 2: we go to the break again. Somebody's suggested that's suspicious
Speaker 2: that if a study that you're working on gets funded
Speaker 2: by a pharmaceutical company and it doesn't pan out, do
Speaker 2: those results still get published or this person says, if
Speaker 2: the results don't fall in favor of the pharmaceutical company
Speaker 2: funding the study, they don't have to make it available
Speaker 2: to the public, which is implying that some of the
Speaker 2: failures get covered up, or what do we know about that?
Speaker 3: I don't think that's I mean, as far as we're concerned,
Speaker 3: our collaborations with pharmaceutical companies in the later stages of
Speaker 3: the development of a drug have never stopped us from
Speaker 3: being able to publish the results scientifically, which is what
Speaker 3: we need for.
Speaker 2: Our careers exactly. Okay, so that's yes. I think that's
Speaker 2: a good response to our text. Right. We're going to
Speaker 2: be back in just a moment. It's ten to five
Speaker 2: News Talks there be but before we go to the break,
Speaker 2: just before we go to the break, that's a note
Speaker 2: to my producer not to hit the button so quickly.
Speaker 2: You can text the word donate to two four four
Speaker 2: two and you'll get it. You'll get taken to a
Speaker 2: link and you can select your donation because it is
Speaker 2: Daffodil Day on Friday, the thirtieth of August. But the
Speaker 2: donation drive is underway right now in support of the
Speaker 2: Cancer Society, So get into it right now and we'll
Speaker 2: be back in just mo It's ten to five News
Speaker 2: Talks d B. We welcome back to the Weekend Collective.
Speaker 2: This has been a special health hub with Professor Sibil Denny.
Speaker 2: He's a former director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center.
Speaker 2: Just chatting about the developments and science and everything. But
Speaker 2: it's all in support of Daffodil Day. So you can
Speaker 2: text donate to two four four two and click a
Speaker 2: link and select your donation amount. A quick text from
Speaker 2: someone saying I have stage four cancel cancer and on
Speaker 2: trial drugs. Unfortunately, I've just tuned and can I re
Speaker 2: listen to this program somewhere? I'd love to be able
Speaker 2: to listen to the full program. And that's a perfect
Speaker 2: question for me, because yes you can. We get the
Speaker 2: pop podcast up and running not long after the show,
Speaker 2: and you just look for the Weekend Collective and this
Speaker 2: will be online. You can also go to the news
Speaker 2: Talk ZB website and hear the fascinating conversation with Bill.
Speaker 2: But there's not much time left Bill, So I'm just
Speaker 2: going to say I think that while it says retired,
Speaker 2: you are technically retired, but what's what are you up to?
Speaker 2: What's retired?
Speaker 3: Look Black, I seem to occupy most of my mornings
Speaker 3: with scientific work. I'm an editor of two major journals,
Speaker 3: and the requests to review papers and make decisions flooded
Speaker 3: each morning, and that really keeps me occupied till lunchtime.
Speaker 3: Then if the weather is decent, I can get out
Speaker 3: in the garden or go for a long walk or something.
Speaker 2: Okay, so you do have a bit more time at
Speaker 2: your dispose. I do, and I appreciate it's because it
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like it's complete. It's partial retirement, really, isn't it.
Speaker 2: If you're you know, you're editing journals and things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is true. I mean the still keeps me
Speaker 3: linked and that that's for me is important to do.
Speaker 4: That is it?
Speaker 2: Also? Is it quite fun editing journals and looking at
Speaker 2: papers and the research that's coming out. Is it sort
Speaker 2: of a bit intimidating as well, because you probably have
Speaker 2: to say yes to some and no to others.
Speaker 3: I have to say yes. I have to say yes
Speaker 3: or no depending on what the reviewers think and depending
Speaker 3: on what I think. And yeah, it and sometimes you
Speaker 3: get calls from frustrated authors who have been turned down. Okay,
Speaker 3: but no, it's it's exciting you keep abreast of what's
Speaker 3: going on in the scientific world in your area.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you're and you from what you from
Speaker 2: what you've seen and from your career and everything, you're
Speaker 2: excited about where science is heading at the moment with cancer.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, absolutely, I mean we have a wider range
Speaker 3: of more useful drugs to choose from than we ever
Speaker 3: had before. Of course, there are issues like funding and
Speaker 3: cost of those drugs which have to be balanced down.
Speaker 3: But the science is going very well.
Speaker 2: Excellent, Hey Bill, thanks so much for your time. Time flies,
Speaker 2: isn't it it?
Speaker 3: It really does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were thinking it's an hour. It's a long time,
Speaker 2: but it's over in a flash when you're.
Speaker 3: On talking quicker than even in the borough.
Speaker 2: Indeed, Okay, by the way, as I say, I've mentioned it,
Speaker 2: but text four four two the text weird. Donate and
Speaker 2: go from there. Thanks Bill, and we'll be back shortly
Speaker 2: with smart money. Andrew Besquin from harber Asset Management will
Speaker 2: be joining.
Speaker 1: Us for more from the Weekend Collective. Listen live to
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