WEBVTT - Sir Bill Denny: Where do Daffodil Day donations go? 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.961 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB. 0:00:34.241 --> 0:00:36.761 And welcome back to the show. This is the Weekend 0:00:36.761 --> 0:00:39.521 Collective and I'm Tim Beverage and this is the Health Hub. 0:00:39.561 --> 0:00:41.321 We want your we'd love to have your cause on 0:00:41.321 --> 0:00:48.721 this on ten eighteen text. But this health Hub is 0:00:48.761 --> 0:00:50.401 a sort of bit of a special health hub because 0:00:50.481 --> 0:00:54.361 August is well known as the Cancer Society's big fundraising month. 0:00:55.001 --> 0:00:56.961 Again it's once again it's supported by A and Z 0:00:57.521 --> 0:01:01.121 and Daffodil Day is well, it's it's not too far away. 0:01:01.121 --> 0:01:03.841 It's Friday, the thirtieth of August. But you don't have 0:01:03.881 --> 0:01:06.681 to wait till then. If you're in a position to 0:01:06.761 --> 0:01:09.201 help the one in three Kiwis who are affected by cancer, 0:01:09.801 --> 0:01:13.401 you can actually donate now. You can text the word 0:01:13.801 --> 0:01:18.081 donate two two double four to two. Okay, so the 0:01:18.161 --> 0:01:19.881 number is two double four to two. You text the 0:01:19.881 --> 0:01:22.241 word donate and then what happens is you'll get a 0:01:22.281 --> 0:01:25.481 link and you can select your donation amount and the 0:01:25.521 --> 0:01:29.401 donations from Kiwi's help with research into all sorts of cancers. 0:01:29.721 --> 0:01:32.561 And it's a Daffodil Day soon, so good time to 0:01:32.561 --> 0:01:34.521 find a bit more about that research. So joining us 0:01:34.521 --> 0:01:37.121 in the studio is a very special guest. He's a 0:01:37.161 --> 0:01:41.641 past director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center. I'm 0:01:41.641 --> 0:01:43.401 going to read a bit of his CV out. Then 0:01:43.401 --> 0:01:45.361 we're going to dig into a bit more about Professor 0:01:45.401 --> 0:01:49.321 Sibil Denny. But his interests include the design and evaluation 0:01:49.401 --> 0:01:51.881 of small molecule drugs. He's been involved in the development 0:01:51.921 --> 0:01:55.081 of fourteen drugs to clinical trial. He'll be embarrassed if 0:01:55.121 --> 0:01:56.761 I read out as awards, but he's got a few. 0:01:57.241 --> 0:02:01.321 He's serve build Any. For a start, he's received the 0:02:01.361 --> 0:02:04.041 Rutherford Medal of the Royal Society of New Zealand, the 0:02:04.081 --> 0:02:07.081 Adrian Albert Meda of the UK Royal Society of Chemistry, 0:02:07.121 --> 0:02:11.161 in the twenty fourteen Medicinal Chemistry Award of the American 0:02:11.241 --> 0:02:16.801 Chemical Society. Anyway, I think the gist is if you've 0:02:16.841 --> 0:02:19.361 got some questions, or you're interested in the science and 0:02:19.361 --> 0:02:24.081 the development of cancer cures and technology and research, then 0:02:24.161 --> 0:02:25.841 this is the hour for you. So joining me in 0:02:25.881 --> 0:02:28.281 the studios, Professor to bild Any, I'm just going to 0:02:28.361 --> 0:02:30.041 call you Bill, good Bill, how are you. 0:02:30.561 --> 0:02:32.321 I'm fine, that's the best way to do it. 0:02:32.401 --> 0:02:34.721 Excellent. Firstly, just to find out a bit about you. 0:02:34.841 --> 0:02:36.601 I mean, I did read out the awards because I 0:02:36.601 --> 0:02:38.641 thought we should we should start by polishing your apple 0:02:38.641 --> 0:02:42.001 a little bit. But how did you you have you've 0:02:42.001 --> 0:02:45.041 recently retired and you've had a lengthy career. But how 0:02:45.761 --> 0:02:47.841 did you get started in science full stop? 0:02:48.561 --> 0:02:48.721 Well? 0:02:48.721 --> 0:02:51.361 I got started in science because I was always interested 0:02:51.401 --> 0:02:54.241 in chemistry for some particular reason, even when I was 0:02:54.441 --> 0:02:58.481 a child, and I remember I collected my own group 0:02:58.561 --> 0:03:00.481 of chemicals and I had to shed out the back 0:03:00.521 --> 0:03:06.401 which I made explosions and various dangerous things. My parents 0:03:06.401 --> 0:03:12.201 were very accepting of that, and I followed that right 0:03:12.241 --> 0:03:17.201 through into into school and then into university and ended 0:03:17.281 --> 0:03:21.441 up at the University of Oxford, where I spent three years. 0:03:22.281 --> 0:03:26.041 And at that particular, at the end of that time, 0:03:26.081 --> 0:03:28.561 we started to look around for jobs for me in 0:03:28.601 --> 0:03:31.641 the UK, and I was expecting to go maybe into 0:03:31.641 --> 0:03:34.641 a pharmaceutical company there, and then I got a call 0:03:34.721 --> 0:03:37.121 from someone, and it was a letter in those days 0:03:37.801 --> 0:03:42.041 from Bruce Kane, who was then director of the Auckland 0:03:42.081 --> 0:03:45.281 Kancer Society Research Center, wanted to know if I would 0:03:45.361 --> 0:03:47.481 like to come back and join the center. 0:03:47.961 --> 0:03:50.361 So how did you go from sort of it sounds 0:03:50.401 --> 0:03:52.081 like you're blowing things up in your shed, a little 0:03:52.121 --> 0:03:55.561 bit like Sir Peter Beck, except you didn't go into rockets. 0:03:55.601 --> 0:03:58.881 You went into into sort of medicinal chemistry. When when 0:03:58.881 --> 0:04:02.801 did you When did your interest refine from you know, 0:04:02.841 --> 0:04:07.561 your initial undergraduate studies of doing I'm guessing you did chemistry. 0:04:08.641 --> 0:04:12.761 When did that refine into something that became useful for 0:04:13.801 --> 0:04:14.521 medical research? 0:04:15.601 --> 0:04:15.721 Well? 0:04:15.761 --> 0:04:18.921 I thought I was interested in chemistry because of what 0:04:18.961 --> 0:04:21.281 you can do with it and how you can develop 0:04:22.441 --> 0:04:27.121 new molecules, and that was what I was doing in Oxford. 0:04:27.281 --> 0:04:29.841 And when I got the I hadn't really thought about 0:04:30.041 --> 0:04:34.161 cancer research until I got the letter from Bruce Kane 0:04:34.601 --> 0:04:36.881 asking me would I like to join the Cancer Research 0:04:37.001 --> 0:04:40.041 Center because they were developing new drugs therapy. How long 0:04:40.081 --> 0:04:45.721 ago was that, Oh, nineteen sixty, I'm nineteen seventy something. 0:04:45.481 --> 0:04:46.321 Like that, criky. 0:04:46.961 --> 0:04:49.961 Yeah, it's been a long journey, but a very very 0:04:50.041 --> 0:04:50.801 rewarding one. 0:04:50.921 --> 0:04:54.001 And what was the state of cancer research and treatment 0:04:54.441 --> 0:04:55.801 back when you started. 0:04:58.161 --> 0:05:00.961 Well, it was a lot less effective than it is 0:05:01.041 --> 0:05:05.401 now because in the last twenty thirty years, a lot 0:05:05.441 --> 0:05:08.841 of work going on into developing drugs which are not 0:05:09.001 --> 0:05:13.561 simply sell killing agents, but more or less this is 0:05:13.641 --> 0:05:17.961 designed to select and treat specific cancers, so there's a 0:05:18.041 --> 0:05:20.921 much more specificity now in the therapy. 0:05:21.641 --> 0:05:25.201 What's the most It might be difficult to answer them 0:05:25.201 --> 0:05:28.001 these questions because you've had such a lengthy career, but 0:05:28.361 --> 0:05:31.681 is there anything that stands out to you through the 0:05:31.721 --> 0:05:35.081 course of your career as being the most exciting sort 0:05:35.081 --> 0:05:38.121 of development or the most a real moment where you've 0:05:38.121 --> 0:05:40.801 got got where you've thought this is, this is this 0:05:40.921 --> 0:05:43.161 is a real game changer when it comes to treating cancer. 0:05:44.881 --> 0:05:49.161 It is a difficult question to answer, probably whenever we 0:05:49.441 --> 0:05:52.801 succeed in getting a new drugs through into clinical trial, 0:05:53.521 --> 0:05:58.041 probably because we've spent ten fifteen years working on refining 0:05:58.081 --> 0:06:00.481 that to the stage where it has been accepted by 0:06:00.521 --> 0:06:03.961 the authorities and can be used in Man. And for example, 0:06:04.401 --> 0:06:07.081 we have now a drug and trial in Auckland Hospital 0:06:07.121 --> 0:06:13.881 Tarlocksotten which has been developed by a couple of people 0:06:13.921 --> 0:06:16.041 in the lab and that's taken them ten years to 0:06:16.081 --> 0:06:18.721 get it to this point. So getting a drug over 0:06:18.761 --> 0:06:21.841 the line the authority is accepted into even the first 0:06:21.881 --> 0:06:25.281 stage trials is a big moment for everybody. 0:06:25.881 --> 0:06:29.601 Uh, and what's that drug particularly, what's this, what's what's 0:06:29.641 --> 0:06:31.441 that one about? What's the named treating. 0:06:32.841 --> 0:06:36.441 We're still working that out. But the drugs drug is 0:06:36.441 --> 0:06:42.241 one of a particular type which we call a it's 0:06:42.281 --> 0:06:45.121 it's a pro drug in the sense that when you 0:06:45.121 --> 0:06:48.441 give it cancer drug to people, the drug distributes everywhere 0:06:48.441 --> 0:06:51.481 in the body and you end up with the side 0:06:51.521 --> 0:06:55.241 effects that are inevitable from drug treatment because it doesn't 0:06:55.281 --> 0:06:58.521 all it doesn't just go to the cancer. So with 0:06:58.761 --> 0:07:04.201 this with tarsott is a pro drug which is circulates 0:07:04.321 --> 0:07:08.641 all the around than the body, but it's relatively non 0:07:08.761 --> 0:07:11.561 toxic and it's only when it gets into the low 0:07:11.601 --> 0:07:14.801 oxygen regions of tumors that it turns itself on. 0:07:14.721 --> 0:07:18.481 To be toxic. Okay, So in other words, from the 0:07:18.641 --> 0:07:21.881 from the layperson's point of view, I've always under does 0:07:21.921 --> 0:07:24.121 it still come under the headline of chemotherapy? Oh, it 0:07:24.161 --> 0:07:26.881 is certainly that because chema. Well, actually, let's just so 0:07:26.961 --> 0:07:29.481 people know, because chemotherapy in a way has a stigma 0:07:29.641 --> 0:07:33.161 because you think you're up for chemotherapy. Therefore saygabidy, you'rre here, 0:07:33.241 --> 0:07:36.081 sagabidy your health and hopefully the drug will just kill 0:07:36.121 --> 0:07:39.001 your disease rather than you would be. Some people's fear 0:07:39.001 --> 0:07:44.121 about chemotherapy, and is this one where it's more targeted? Well, 0:07:44.161 --> 0:07:46.121 what is chemotherapy, I'll interrupt myself. 0:07:46.281 --> 0:07:49.561 Human therapy is simply the treatment of cancer with small 0:07:49.641 --> 0:07:53.641 molecular drugs. Okay, So, and as you say, those drugs 0:07:53.761 --> 0:07:58.281 generally distribute everywhere in the body, and they do damage 0:07:58.321 --> 0:08:01.961 to normal cells as well. I mean, perhaps still lesser extent, 0:08:02.161 --> 0:08:07.721 but in the general course of events, you do get 0:08:07.761 --> 0:08:12.481 side effects because the drug is distributed everywhere. It's killing 0:08:12.561 --> 0:08:20.401 cancer cells, but there's also a concombatant cell kill in 0:08:20.641 --> 0:08:25.641 various other areas in the body, especially where cells are 0:08:25.641 --> 0:08:26.641 turning over rapidly. 0:08:27.401 --> 0:08:31.001 That in a way would that be I'm going to 0:08:31.041 --> 0:08:32.801 ask some dumb questions, by the way, because I'm not 0:08:32.841 --> 0:08:37.561 a scientist, But to me, over the last few years, 0:08:37.681 --> 0:08:40.721 I've got the impression that the treatments that are available 0:08:40.801 --> 0:08:44.801 are more and more about just the drugs being smarter 0:08:45.081 --> 0:08:47.001 and being able to what you're saying is a pro 0:08:47.161 --> 0:08:49.481 what did you say pro so? In other words, so 0:08:49.521 --> 0:08:52.161 it's not that's not just we're going to carpet bomb everything. 0:08:52.561 --> 0:08:54.921 Now it's a bit more precision sort of targeting, and 0:08:55.321 --> 0:08:58.841 is that maybe the biggest advance, one of the bigger 0:08:58.881 --> 0:09:00.201 advances in chemotherapy. 0:09:00.841 --> 0:09:04.241 There's two sorts of advances along the lines that you 0:09:04.281 --> 0:09:08.161 say is we're developing molecules that are much more specific 0:09:08.361 --> 0:09:13.881 for particular cancer types, and so that means we can 0:09:15.081 --> 0:09:18.401 develop drugs to target cancer A or cancer B. And 0:09:19.081 --> 0:09:21.641 it's a different drug. It's not simply we've got six 0:09:21.721 --> 0:09:25.001 drugs and we give it to every patient. But the 0:09:25.041 --> 0:09:28.521 other thing is, as we've said before, drugs, once they 0:09:28.561 --> 0:09:31.961 get into the body distribute everywhere, and so the idea 0:09:31.961 --> 0:09:35.161 of a pro drug is to have it inactive until 0:09:35.201 --> 0:09:40.401 it enters the tumor cells. And we managed to do 0:09:40.441 --> 0:09:44.001 that by recognizing that in tumors there is very low 0:09:44.041 --> 0:09:47.121 oxygen levels. So if you can design a drug which 0:09:47.201 --> 0:09:51.001 is not active in high oxygen levels but active in 0:09:51.041 --> 0:09:55.321 low oxygen levels, then you will target cancer specifically. And 0:09:55.361 --> 0:09:58.161 this is one of the major areas of interest in 0:09:58.201 --> 0:09:59.081 our laboratory. 0:09:59.681 --> 0:10:04.561 When so you talked about the colleagues who have developed this, 0:10:05.601 --> 0:10:08.201 it's going to clinical trials. So clinical trials means it's 0:10:08.201 --> 0:10:10.641 going to go into people. Is that right, that's correct. 0:10:10.681 --> 0:10:14.121 There are three sorts of clinical trials. The first stage 0:10:14.161 --> 0:10:18.681 one where you're simply evaluating the drug in people to 0:10:18.881 --> 0:10:22.121 be concerned about toxicity efforts and things like that. 0:10:23.281 --> 0:10:25.041 Yep. And what's stage two? 0:10:25.441 --> 0:10:31.121 Stage two really is when you give the drug to 0:10:32.001 --> 0:10:34.761 a larger number of people, but all with one specific 0:10:34.841 --> 0:10:38.561 cancer type, so you can see whether this has general 0:10:38.601 --> 0:10:42.641 effects beneficial effects in the cancer itself. 0:10:43.241 --> 0:10:46.681 And stage three is three is what when it's basically 0:10:47.401 --> 0:10:49.201 a larger proportion of people. 0:10:49.001 --> 0:10:52.881 Or Stage three as rall is that it's a larger 0:10:52.921 --> 0:10:59.201 proportion of people, usually around one thousand people, So you 0:10:59.241 --> 0:11:03.281 want a broad spectrum of people with this particular disease 0:11:03.721 --> 0:11:06.521 to see whether the drug is consistently effected. 0:11:06.641 --> 0:11:09.041 And is that usually the stage where you're you're pretty 0:11:09.041 --> 0:11:11.081 confident that it's a safe drug. You just want to 0:11:11.081 --> 0:11:13.241 see how effective it is or is it still considering 0:11:13.281 --> 0:11:14.041 issues of safety. 0:11:14.081 --> 0:11:17.961 You've always been You've always got to consider issues of 0:11:18.001 --> 0:11:22.441 safety because cancer drugs are generally designed to kill cells. Yeah, 0:11:22.641 --> 0:11:24.601 and so with that, your safety has always got to 0:11:24.641 --> 0:11:25.641 be a major concern. 0:11:26.121 --> 0:11:29.921 Okay, So in the journey of from ten years from 0:11:30.321 --> 0:11:34.521 developing a drug to going on clinical trials, what what 0:11:34.641 --> 0:11:37.361 is the first year or two of that sort of 0:11:37.361 --> 0:11:42.001 research look like, is it again dumb questions? But is 0:11:42.041 --> 0:11:43.721 it sort of Petri dish sort of stuff? 0:11:43.881 --> 0:11:45.881 Yeah, absolutely it is. 0:11:46.121 --> 0:11:46.681 It's okay. 0:11:48.281 --> 0:11:51.681 The chemist are in their lab devising all these interesting 0:11:51.761 --> 0:11:54.361 new molecules that are new and they look exciting and 0:11:54.361 --> 0:11:57.201 they're interesting to make. Then we test them all in cells, 0:11:57.361 --> 0:11:59.641 just in cells and a petri dish, and most of 0:11:59.681 --> 0:12:02.241 them fall over at that point, and. 0:12:02.641 --> 0:12:04.321 Now they basically don't do what they've got. Do you 0:12:04.361 --> 0:12:06.601 have some tumors or something you introduce a drug to 0:12:06.921 --> 0:12:08.801 correct and you go, let's see what happens, and you know, oh, 0:12:08.841 --> 0:12:09.361 that didn't work. 0:12:09.481 --> 0:12:12.321 Yeah, that's right. I mean that's an awful lot of 0:12:12.361 --> 0:12:14.081 what goes on in the lab. No, this didn't work. 0:12:14.121 --> 0:12:15.121 Let's do something. 0:12:14.841 --> 0:12:17.641 Else if you But just another dumb question. I'm going 0:12:17.681 --> 0:12:22.201 to specialize in dumb questions. So when you are say, 0:12:22.321 --> 0:12:25.081 you talk about having drugs that can thrive in a 0:12:25.121 --> 0:12:27.601 low oxygen environment and that's those are the ones that 0:12:27.641 --> 0:12:31.281 are going to target the cells. Does that mean what 0:12:31.441 --> 0:12:33.961 sort of if you're doing it in a petri dish? 0:12:35.121 --> 0:12:37.201 That sounds like it'd be quite a challenge because you 0:12:37.201 --> 0:12:39.921 don't want to introduce oxygen at that stage either do 0:12:39.961 --> 0:12:41.761 you you want it to have a low oxygen environment 0:12:42.001 --> 0:12:44.361 in that peatra dish? So does that mean that the 0:12:44.361 --> 0:12:47.841 equipment you've what does that mean in terms of equipment? 0:12:48.921 --> 0:12:50.961 Or you can simply put the peachradish in a low 0:12:51.001 --> 0:12:51.961 oxygen environment? 0:12:52.041 --> 0:12:53.681 Yeah? What's a low oxygen environment? 0:12:54.201 --> 0:12:56.561 Or oxygen levels below about one or two percent? 0:12:56.761 --> 0:12:56.841 No? 0:12:56.881 --> 0:12:59.961 I mean that is that just so? Is that in 0:13:00.001 --> 0:13:02.961 a specific chamber or something stripped out of there? 0:13:03.481 --> 0:13:04.881 We have the equipment to do that. 0:13:05.081 --> 0:13:09.441 Yeah, okay, okay, before my brain needs a rest and 0:13:09.441 --> 0:13:11.281 a cup of teaen to lie down, one more question 0:13:13.281 --> 0:13:14.801 and we'll take your cause. By the way, if you've 0:13:14.841 --> 0:13:17.041 got any questions around the science or if for professor 0:13:17.361 --> 0:13:20.121 Sir Bill Denny, then this is your chance. Because we 0:13:20.281 --> 0:13:21.681 a lot of the time when we do we talk 0:13:21.721 --> 0:13:24.041 about health and cancer treatments and all sorts of things 0:13:24.081 --> 0:13:26.481 on talkback. We don't have an expert in the room. 0:13:26.681 --> 0:13:28.521 So we've got one and now so you can give 0:13:28.561 --> 0:13:30.041 him a call. He's not a doctor, by the way, 0:13:30.041 --> 0:13:32.601 in terms of a medical doctor. It's about the science 0:13:32.641 --> 0:13:36.401 of developing molecules to treat cancers. If you've got any questions, 0:13:36.481 --> 0:13:38.521 we'd love to hear from you. On eight hundred and 0:13:38.561 --> 0:13:40.561 eighty ten eighty. By the way, I'm going to mention 0:13:40.641 --> 0:13:43.761 it a few times probably, But if you want to 0:13:43.801 --> 0:13:47.641 donate to for Daffodil Day, and it's thirtieth of August, 0:13:47.641 --> 0:13:50.601 but rarely from now on, it's open. It's supported by 0:13:50.601 --> 0:13:52.761 A and Z. All you need to do is text 0:13:52.841 --> 0:13:56.841 the word donate to two four four two and there'll 0:13:56.841 --> 0:13:59.521 be link you'll get and you can select your donation amount. Actually, 0:13:59.561 --> 0:14:01.441 I'll come back with my interesting question about where we're 0:14:01.441 --> 0:14:03.961 at in terms of New Zealand research in just a moment. 0:14:04.041 --> 0:14:06.161 But this is the health up on the Weekend Collective. 0:14:06.641 --> 0:14:09.401 It's twenty past four. News Talk said, b give us 0:14:09.401 --> 0:14:10.841 a caller, you can text your question. 0:14:15.721 --> 0:14:20.841 Don't show over, don't colder, don't stuck caring. 0:14:21.521 --> 0:14:27.001 He mean welcome, you're not and welcome back to the 0:14:27.001 --> 0:14:29.801 health Hub. I'm Tim Beverage and this is this is 0:14:29.841 --> 0:14:31.881 a health hub looking forward to Daffodil Day on the 0:14:31.881 --> 0:14:34.281 thirtieth of August. And my guess is Professor of Bill Denny. 0:14:34.481 --> 0:14:37.361 He's former director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center 0:14:37.641 --> 0:14:41.361 and we're just chatting basically about the scientific advancements when 0:14:41.401 --> 0:14:43.881 it comes to treating cancers. But of course if you 0:14:43.921 --> 0:14:48.401 want to support the work that has done to address 0:14:48.441 --> 0:14:52.121 the challenge that cancer presents to right around New Zealand, 0:14:52.121 --> 0:14:54.241 then you can text two four four two in the 0:14:54.241 --> 0:14:57.281 word donate tense text donate to two four four two. 0:14:57.441 --> 0:15:00.521 You'll get a link and you can select your donation amount. Bill. 0:15:01.241 --> 0:15:04.961 How good are we in New Zealand at cancer research? 0:15:06.881 --> 0:15:09.601 Well, I think we're very good, and I'm not speaking 0:15:10.241 --> 0:15:12.681 just about our own research center, but there are groups 0:15:12.721 --> 0:15:15.081 the Madigan Institute, there are groups in the University of 0:15:15.721 --> 0:15:19.881 Otago which are carrying out a large number of which 0:15:19.921 --> 0:15:22.521 are covering a large number of areas in cancer research, 0:15:22.801 --> 0:15:26.121 which is a very broad area. So we've got in 0:15:26.161 --> 0:15:29.881 most of the universities, we've got groups that are very 0:15:29.921 --> 0:15:36.641 important and hooked up with groups overseas as well. 0:15:37.561 --> 0:15:39.481 Has there been a big change in terms of science 0:15:39.521 --> 0:15:42.881 ific research in our capabilities in New Zealand. So for instance, 0:15:43.401 --> 0:15:45.921 I mean the analogy i'd use as everyone assumes that 0:15:45.921 --> 0:15:48.161 everything a lot of the big advancements happen in Europe 0:15:48.201 --> 0:15:51.721 or America. But of course now we've got on the 0:15:51.801 --> 0:15:54.641 rocket science thing we've got. I mean, that's an obvious thing. 0:15:54.681 --> 0:15:58.601 But does that reflect generally the science community in New 0:15:58.681 --> 0:16:01.161 Zealand that actually, you know what, we are punching well 0:16:01.201 --> 0:16:01.881 above our weight. 0:16:03.361 --> 0:16:05.641 I think it's fair to say that very hard to 0:16:06.041 --> 0:16:09.241 it's very hard to evaluate. We can't evaluate ourselves easily 0:16:09.321 --> 0:16:13.121 against the United States, for example, because we're very small 0:16:13.161 --> 0:16:17.481 and they're very big, but we have a presence there certainly. 0:16:17.801 --> 0:16:21.881 Yeah, are there what are the things that I mean, 0:16:21.921 --> 0:16:23.601 I don't know if you can talk about the research 0:16:23.641 --> 0:16:25.961 that you're most excited about now, because I know a 0:16:26.001 --> 0:16:28.681 lot of it's technical. But are there particular developments going 0:16:28.721 --> 0:16:32.521 on now which you think, Wow, this is really pretty 0:16:32.521 --> 0:16:34.521 amazing or is it just every time a drug comes 0:16:34.521 --> 0:16:37.041 to trial you go, there's another victory that's exciting. 0:16:39.121 --> 0:16:43.601 I think the research is much more targeted now because 0:16:43.601 --> 0:16:46.801 we know so much more about the myriad enzymes that 0:16:46.841 --> 0:16:52.681 are present in cells which sometimes go crazy, and we 0:16:52.721 --> 0:16:56.441 can target them much more specifically. For example, there are 0:16:56.801 --> 0:17:01.521 about one hundred different kinase enzymes and there are people 0:17:01.561 --> 0:17:05.161 developing drugs specifically for each one of those. So I 0:17:05.201 --> 0:17:07.961 think in future the drugs will even will be even 0:17:08.041 --> 0:17:10.881 better targeted than they are. Now we've made a big 0:17:10.921 --> 0:17:13.641 advance in that already are there. 0:17:14.721 --> 0:17:19.161 While you're becoming more targeted with the drugs that you're creating, 0:17:19.721 --> 0:17:23.481 does that mean that each drug you're creating treats fewer 0:17:23.561 --> 0:17:26.521 cancers though they're more specific to each type of cancer. 0:17:27.121 --> 0:17:31.401 So if you're a cancer suffering, you've got to again 0:17:31.521 --> 0:17:36.961 dumb questions. So chemotherapy seemed to me, in my lay understanding, 0:17:36.961 --> 0:17:39.081 to be something that was more broadly. You might have 0:17:39.081 --> 0:17:42.401 one chemotherapy that would targets several different cancers. I don't know, 0:17:42.841 --> 0:17:46.281 But now you've got this particular chemotherapy which is targeted 0:17:46.321 --> 0:17:48.161 for this particular cancer. That's your drug. 0:17:49.241 --> 0:17:51.401 We're going down that line. I mean, that is exactly 0:17:51.481 --> 0:17:55.201 the area in which is being developed most vigously at 0:17:55.201 --> 0:17:57.521 the moment. There's a large number of new drugs are 0:17:57.561 --> 0:18:01.721 coming out. They're very specific for particular cell types, they're 0:18:01.801 --> 0:18:07.001 very specific for particular enzymes, and so speaking, now it's 0:18:07.121 --> 0:18:11.241 much easier to rapidly determine which enzymes in a particular 0:18:11.761 --> 0:18:16.681 cancer has gone haywire and select the drugs that can 0:18:16.721 --> 0:18:20.041 treat that. So treatment is much more selective much more 0:18:20.081 --> 0:18:22.601 patient selective than it than it was before. 0:18:23.001 --> 0:18:26.961 Okay, how do you how do you fund your research? 0:18:27.241 --> 0:18:28.681 How do you get the money for it? Is it 0:18:28.961 --> 0:18:30.961 things like Daffidilt Day? Where does the money come from? 0:18:32.081 --> 0:18:36.921 Certainly the Cancer Society Auckland Cancer Society has set up 0:18:36.961 --> 0:18:41.361 the center in the first place and has always been 0:18:41.401 --> 0:18:45.081 a significant funder of it. But we also raise our 0:18:45.121 --> 0:18:51.321 own funding through writing, writing grants for applications, and in 0:18:51.401 --> 0:18:55.601 particular we've also had close relationships with several big pharmaceutical 0:18:55.641 --> 0:18:59.601 companies who've been interested in the particular compounds we're developing, 0:19:00.001 --> 0:19:02.521 and we've had a good support from them as well. 0:19:02.601 --> 0:19:07.161 So we have a range of support from different areas. 0:19:07.361 --> 0:19:10.561 What role does do What role does the charitable side 0:19:10.961 --> 0:19:16.561 play when it comes to initiatives like Daffodil Day? How 0:19:16.601 --> 0:19:20.601 important is the biggest thing about the money you raise 0:19:20.761 --> 0:19:22.761 or is it more the awareness or is it a 0:19:22.801 --> 0:19:24.721 package of the whole lot? In terms of this, what 0:19:24.841 --> 0:19:28.241 daffodil Daffodil Day means well, deafit to. 0:19:28.281 --> 0:19:30.961 Day is critical for the cancer societies because they do 0:19:31.081 --> 0:19:34.041 lots of things other than just support our center. They 0:19:34.121 --> 0:19:37.961 also run the main lodge here in Auckland where patients 0:19:37.961 --> 0:19:42.921 who are receiving treatment can get free board, and they 0:19:44.081 --> 0:19:48.521 support a fleet of nurses who go around to treat 0:19:48.521 --> 0:19:52.801 people at home with follow up therapy. So there's a 0:19:52.801 --> 0:19:55.401 lot of things that they do in a part apart 0:19:55.561 --> 0:19:58.761 from partially funding the center. 0:19:59.321 --> 0:20:02.521 Does the treatment of cancers mean that also that cancers 0:20:02.521 --> 0:20:05.001 can more cancers can be treated. I mean, I don't know. 0:20:05.121 --> 0:20:06.881 We still do we still have the four stage model 0:20:06.921 --> 0:20:10.801 of cancer one stage one, two, three, and four, And 0:20:11.121 --> 0:20:14.401 does it are we able to treat cancers later effectively? 0:20:16.881 --> 0:20:19.401 That's getting a little bit outside my expertise, but my 0:20:20.201 --> 0:20:23.121 sense is that that is certainly true. The drugs with it, 0:20:23.361 --> 0:20:27.601 there are more drugs, they're more specific to particular targets, 0:20:28.081 --> 0:20:31.641 and so you could if you can combine a number 0:20:31.681 --> 0:20:36.921 of drugs to best target a particular cancer in a patience, 0:20:37.081 --> 0:20:39.801 then that is that is an advance. 0:20:40.041 --> 0:20:42.641 Yeah. I've got a few texts here which may or 0:20:42.681 --> 0:20:46.081 maybe either in or outside of your area of expertise, 0:20:46.161 --> 0:20:53.281 because when people hear doctor sud BUILDINGI, they think that 0:20:53.681 --> 0:20:55.521 they think that maybe you're going to give them a 0:20:55.561 --> 0:20:58.241 diagnosis on And I'll point out to anyone who's texting 0:20:58.241 --> 0:21:00.161 that we I'll read some of the texts and if 0:21:00.161 --> 0:21:02.721 we can answer them, sure, then then maybe some threat 0:21:02.761 --> 0:21:06.561 of conversation will come out of them. So brace yourself. Okay, Oh, 0:21:06.601 --> 0:21:10.401 this one's just an observation. Relates to my previous comment. 0:21:10.681 --> 0:21:12.721 I have a friend who has stage four cancer. I 0:21:12.761 --> 0:21:15.121 believe that used to be pretty much that much a 0:21:15.201 --> 0:21:18.361 death sentence. But how times have changed and medicine has 0:21:18.401 --> 0:21:21.121 improved that you can survive that level of cancer. And 0:21:21.121 --> 0:21:23.321 that's sort of what we're saying. Isn't it even a 0:21:23.361 --> 0:21:24.081 stage four cancer? 0:21:24.121 --> 0:21:27.081 I would agree with that. Yeah, I think across the 0:21:27.801 --> 0:21:33.041 spectrum there are more and better drugs that are more selective. 0:21:33.801 --> 0:21:37.521 Although there's a limit to how many drugs can be 0:21:37.601 --> 0:21:42.001 funded obviously, but looking at the field as a whole, 0:21:42.241 --> 0:21:44.681 we're better off now than we've ever been in terms 0:21:44.681 --> 0:21:46.761 of a bib ability to treat the disease. 0:21:47.081 --> 0:21:49.121 Do you think what you get to a stage? Again? 0:21:49.281 --> 0:21:53.481 I know you probably won't like guesswork because you're a scientist. Actually, okay, 0:21:53.521 --> 0:21:56.041 I'm going to ask a dumb question. How much when 0:21:56.041 --> 0:22:00.681 it comes to establishing a clinical trial is a scientist 0:22:00.721 --> 0:22:03.041 going I see this works here, this has worked, This 0:22:03.081 --> 0:22:05.841 has been an installary research, and it's pretty much you 0:22:05.921 --> 0:22:07.881 just switch on that creative part of your brain. I 0:22:07.961 --> 0:22:12.401 wonder if that drug might work here. In other words, 0:22:12.681 --> 0:22:16.081 in the early stages, how much guesswork is there as 0:22:16.081 --> 0:22:19.721 opposed to just evidence, evidence, evidence evidence. Therefore, we're going 0:22:19.801 --> 0:22:22.041 to do this next. Do you know what I mean? 0:22:22.121 --> 0:22:24.161 I think there's a lot of guesswork. Oh, I think 0:22:24.201 --> 0:22:27.201 you have to have you have to have guesswork inspired 0:22:27.241 --> 0:22:29.081 guess work is the basis of science. 0:22:29.401 --> 0:22:31.881 Well, well, it's because let's try this that doesn't work, 0:22:32.001 --> 0:22:34.921 and therefore that doesn't work. Okay, so oh good, because 0:22:34.961 --> 0:22:36.641 I was relieved. That was one of my dumb questions. 0:22:36.681 --> 0:22:40.561 Again, No, it's that's that's the essence of science. 0:22:40.761 --> 0:22:43.801 Well, because this is a slightly broader question. But where 0:22:43.841 --> 0:22:47.841