1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: Government's having a crack at cross party support for their 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: RMA reform. They're inviting the Labor Party in the Greens 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,040 Speaker 1: to the table to try and build sort of consensus 4 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: around these new laws. So what chance of this happening? 5 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: Labor Party leader Crusipkins with us morning. 6 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 2: Good morning, Mike. I'm glad you found my number again. 7 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: And no, we never lost your number, Chris, just didn't 8 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: want to ring it. You know how it does now? 9 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: So is the brutal business, Mike. 10 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: It's a tough business, Chris. On a scale of one 11 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: to ten when we talk about this cooperation business, on 12 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: a scale of one to ten ten, you can't wait 13 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: to get into bed with these people and sort out 14 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: the RMA one. You hate them and you're never going 15 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: to touch them with a barge pole. Where are you at? 16 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: Oh? I think we're keen to try and achieve some 17 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 2: certainty for New Zealanders. So if we can work with them, 18 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: find a way forward that involves a bit of compromise 19 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: and that will actually give some certainty to RIMA reform, 20 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: then we're very keen to talk to them. 21 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: You know. 22 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: I think one of the things that we've heard a 23 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 2: lot in the last year or so from New Zealanders 24 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: is you know, the ping pong where each government comes 25 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: in and just changes everything the last government did is 26 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: actually getting a bit dizzy. And for people, compromise will 27 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: be required on both sides. If we're going to get 28 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: something that's a bit more stable and that avoids that, 29 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 2: and if we can try and achieve that over the 30 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 2: next year and a half or so, then we're open 31 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: to that conversation. 32 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: Now. I was very pleased to hear you say that 33 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: the other day, and I thought, well, maybe we're onto something. 34 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: But then I asked Ginny Anderson on the program last 35 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: week about your charter schools and she botched that completely. 36 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: And you're still canceling charter schools. But so on one 37 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: hand you're saying we want to cooperate. On another hand, 38 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: we're not canceling stuff. 39 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 2: And then you are, well, there are I mean, you're 40 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: never going to get complete unanimity in politics, So there 41 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: are going to be areas where there's difference, but an 42 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 2: areas like infrastructure and areas like RIMA reform where we've 43 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 2: got really long lead times, very long kind of tails 44 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: to some of these things and very significant effects with 45 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 2: a short term chop and change cycle. We do want 46 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: to try and provide a bit more certainty. So if 47 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: you take things like infrastructure, for example, one government coming 48 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: in and saying, oh suh, I don't like the roading 49 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: projects that the last government have signed up to, so 50 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 2: we're going to put all them on hold, and we're 51 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: going to come up with our own list of roading projects. 52 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: What happens in the meantime is all the businesses who 53 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: would build those roading projects suddenly go, what do we 54 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: do with all the workers who we've got leaning on shovels? 55 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: And you know, I just think that's got to stop. 56 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 2: So what I said was in areas like roading, for example, 57 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: if there are projects underway, even if they might not 58 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: have been our first choice, we'll keep doing them. Now 59 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: the long term pipeline might change, so further down the track, 60 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: five years down the track, you might find that the 61 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: priorities have changed and we're building different roads. But we 62 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 2: won't grind everything to a hold Holt In the meantime. 63 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: What about your comment about the treaty. So the treaty's 64 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: not in it? Do you is that like put it 65 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: in or else we're out. 66 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: It's certainly something we want to talk to them about. So, 67 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: I mean, Chris Bishop made some soothing comments yesterday about 68 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 2: wanting to respect, you know, Marty rights under the treaty, 69 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: wanting to make sure that treaty settlements were upheld and 70 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: all of that. We need to kind of see what 71 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: that looks like because saying that you want to do 72 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 2: that but then saying you don't want to put it 73 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 2: in the law are kind of contradictory thing. So we 74 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: need to understand exactly what the government are proposing there. 75 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to make it too political, but one 76 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: of the examples that's been tossed around the last couple 77 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: of days the Island Singapore thing, where they've got all 78 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: the rules on basically one page, when David Parker wanted 79 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: to reform it and came up with nine hundred plus pages. 80 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: Was that a bridge too far? 81 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I think you can't judge the quality of 82 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: legislation in an area like this by the length of it, 83 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: because in some cases, longer legislation that gives more clarity 84 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: is better than shorter legislation, which then means you get 85 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: a whole lot of regulations which can chop and change 86 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: more so I don't think that we should set a 87 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: page limit to it, because sometimes you know, a longer 88 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 2: legislation actually is clearer than shorter legislation. So if you 89 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: did get it down to a page, for example, Mike, 90 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: and it was a page of principles, that'd be quite 91 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 2: subjective potentially, and then the courts end up having more 92 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 2: sway in it rather than Parliament. So you know, I 93 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: think what we want to try and do is find 94 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: something that gives New Zealanders some certainty so that they 95 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: can say, Okay, these are the rules, we know what 96 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 2: they're going to be, they're locked in and we can 97 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: move forward. And I think that that actual but that 98 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: does put an onus on National in particular, to say, yet, 99 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: we'll come to the table and we'll try and find 100 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: a way forward that Labor and National can both live with. 101 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: And it might not be first preference for either of us, 102 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: but we'll find a way forward. What Chris Bishop's leader 103 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: effectively said yesterday was that New Zealand first and ACTI 104 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: continue to have a veto on any decisions. Now I 105 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: think he is a fed up of that. So I'm 106 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 2: saying to them, look, if Labor and National can get 107 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: around the table, find a way forward that gives you 108 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 2: your majority in parliament, but it also means it's an 109 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: enduring majority if the government changes. I think New Zealanders 110 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: would be quite keen on that. 111 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: Would you concede? Though? The couple of examples I've got 112 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: exercised about it, like was this k road building by 113 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: Farrenhey that was rejected for reasons that having read it, 114 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: I can't even begin to understand. And the wind farm 115 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: in Southland under your fast track rule, the wind farm 116 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,559 Speaker 1: wasn't allowed, so renewable fast tracks still can't go ahead. 117 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you can't defend that stuff, can you. 118 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: No? I mean I was pretty frustrated by both of 119 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 2: those decisions, to be frank, you know, and you know 120 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: the fast track was designed to try and speed up 121 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 2: exactly that kind of project and those kind of projects. 122 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: When we need more renewable energy in New Zealand and 123 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: we need a resource management process that allows us to 124 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: get there. I think if you take the case of 125 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 2: the wind farm for example, it kind of highlights where 126 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: we need a bit of a almost like an attitude 127 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 2: shift towards this stuff from saying no, you can't do 128 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: these things for these reasons to saying, look, these are 129 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: the concerns that we've got, and here's how you can 130 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: mitigate those concerns so that you can go ahead and 131 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: do it now. That's the kind of I think, sort 132 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: of attitude shift that we need around resource management stuff. 133 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: It's not that there shouldn't be environmental protections, there should be. 134 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 2: It's not that there shouldn't be constraints. There should be, 135 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: but the way we approach them has to be. Wind 136 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: farms are good. We won't need them to happen in 137 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: order for them to happen in this area. These are 138 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: the things you need to do to mitigate the risks now. 139 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: Are nice to catch up with the cross Sipkins Labor 140 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: Party leader immediate feedback, Mike, I wouldn't trust chippy with 141 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: a barge pole too much baggage. Sure, that's my ongoing 142 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: This why I can't wait for the election to year 143 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: next year because it'll be a fascinating thing. And that's 144 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: why traditionally governments get two terms in this country, especially 145 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: ones that got heaved out of power for very obvious 146 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: and overt reasons around the economy. Is that you haven't 147 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: forgotten and the same people are there so unless I mean, 148 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: if they'd materially changed that, they'd gone, look those policies 149 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: for another time, another day, and we're different now, or 150 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: they jettison a whole lot of people out and put 151 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: a whole lot of new people, and then you have 152 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: a different conversation. But the same people who shafted the 153 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: economy are going to be presenting themselves to you next 154 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: year and going, hey, remember us, Mike, Shorter legislations always better. 155 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: Hipkin's not convincing. All Chippy is doing is appeasing potential 156 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: swing voters. This rat will say anything to get in power. 157 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: Mike Chippy needs the Marry Party to get back into 158 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: government and they won't agree weasel words. So didn't go 159 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: too well for them. 160 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: For more from The Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 161 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: news talks that'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 162 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.