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Speaker 1: Heather Duke Cla.

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Speaker 2: Now the three principles to be included in the controversial

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Speaker 2: Treaty Principles Bill have been released today. They include Principles

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Speaker 2: of Civil Government that's number one, Number two the rights

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Speaker 2: of Hapu and Ewi Maori, and number three the right

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Speaker 2: to equality. Our cabinet documents released today also reveal warnings

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Speaker 2: from officials that the policy is based on a novel

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Speaker 2: reading of the treaty and advice that government should stick

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Speaker 2: with the status quo. Helmut Motlik is the chief executive

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Speaker 2: of Terrunanga or tour Ranga and is with us. Now, Hey, Helmut,

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Speaker 2: good evening. Now that you've seen them, what do you think?

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Speaker 2: Have you got any problems with them?

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Speaker 1: It's second first, same as the first verse head that

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Speaker 1: the idea that the idea that the rights that accrue

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Speaker 1: to New Zealanders and that the rights that accrue to

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Speaker 1: Parliament as sovereign just came out of fresh air, is

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Speaker 1: of course what the first one is trying to say,

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Speaker 1: which of course is factorily incorrect. That came from the British,

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Speaker 1: and the British got it from signing treaty with the

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Speaker 1: Hapoo of New Zealand. That seems to be totally missing

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Speaker 1: and David's calculation in respect of the rights that supposedly

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Speaker 1: accrue to Ewe and Hapoo, were those only going to

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Speaker 1: be the rights that the government decides to give Ie

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Speaker 1: will just ignore all of the constitutional and historical background.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll make it up as we go. So no, no,

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Speaker 1: it's not a surprise entirely. But second best sement is

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Speaker 1: that fair?

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Speaker 2: I mean, because the rights that it's talking about here

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Speaker 2: are rights that are specified. These are the rights for

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Speaker 2: Hapoo and ee Ma, specified in legislation, specified in treaty settlements,

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Speaker 2: are specified in other agreements with the crown. Where else

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Speaker 2: are the rights going to come from?

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Speaker 1: Well, they come from the original documentation, the original treaty

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Speaker 1: that was signed up to you. That's where they come from. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And one of.

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Speaker 2: The interesting but that's not going to happen because that

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Speaker 2: is still that is what your treaty settlements, that that's

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Speaker 2: covered off by treaty settlements. They reflect what's in the treaty.

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Speaker 1: No. No, the only thing that are spoken to in

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Speaker 1: the treaty settlements that primarily relate to property and also

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Speaker 1: then relate at the margin to opportunities to be consulted

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Speaker 1: and to engage in process. Tobity your white tongue, he says,

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Speaker 1: a heck of a lot more than that. Either what

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Speaker 1: does it say and that that well if you if

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Speaker 1: you want to read it and most that's in there, well,

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Speaker 1: well let's go back one step and let me frame

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Speaker 1: it this way. What what what David is in those

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Speaker 1: you're supporting his views trying to sell is the idea

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Speaker 1: that one hundred thousand warlike, fiercely independent tribes in their

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Speaker 1: in their leadership, agreed when presented when met with a

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Speaker 1: console representing two thousand British people who were living in

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Speaker 1: the country at the time. David's proposition is that those

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Speaker 1: one hundred thousand fiercely independent warlike people surrendered all of

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Speaker 1: their rights to this, to Buzzb and Hobson, and they

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Speaker 1: did that willingly.

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Speaker 2: But what other rights are the treaty that are not

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Speaker 2: represented in these principles?

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Speaker 1: To not tended tongue speaks to the ability to continue

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Speaker 1: to live your life according to your customs, to have

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Speaker 1: responsibility for your people, your place, and to live according

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Speaker 1: to your own to comer. That's what was agreed and

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Speaker 1: that's the only thing that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: But legal or in agreements with the crown.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but that was the that was the journey we

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Speaker 1: were on. The journey we were on was truth and

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Speaker 1: reconciliation of figuring out what what does what does those

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Speaker 1: rights in eighteen forty translate to in the in the

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Speaker 1: current setting, And that was the trajectory we were on. Now,

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Speaker 1: what David doesn't doesn't like where that that conversation was going,

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Speaker 1: and so he's trying to actually enter into a revision

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Speaker 1: as history writing exercise, ignoring all of the history, all

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Speaker 1: of the legal advice, all of precedent, and wanting to

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Speaker 1: just rewrite the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, is it possible that what David Seymour was I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to speak for him. I'm having a punt

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Speaker 2: at this, but I don't like the way the courts

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Speaker 2: are going on any number of issues, right, So maybe

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Speaker 2: the right place for these things to be defined is

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Speaker 2: not by the courts as it has been up to now,

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Speaker 2: but actually by the representatives that we elect.

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Speaker 1: What's the problem with that, Well, there's two main observations

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Speaker 1: I'd make about that. The whole idea of a constitutional

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Speaker 1: of constitutional law is that it supersedes the ability of

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Speaker 1: current government to faff around according to you know, the

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Speaker 1: women will of the current settings with some fundamental things. Right,

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Speaker 1: so you put in place of ideas that supersede the

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Speaker 1: ability of governments to just for example, I'll give you

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Speaker 1: an example. Right, just because just because everybody decided today

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Speaker 1: that we don't like what was agreed previously, we're going

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Speaker 1: to change in fact, the provisions that have been set

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Speaker 1: aside for the aging population. And so they've all made

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Speaker 1: plans for being able to retire, have their superannuation, have

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Speaker 1: their healthcare provided for. But because we don't like that anymore,

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Speaker 1: we're going to change the law. Now is that right?

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Speaker 1: Probably not, but it's possible, it's possible under the ability

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Speaker 1: from just pure democratic principle to play out. Now that's

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Speaker 1: a that's a contemporary example where the idea of just

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Speaker 1: you know, simple democratic principle doesn't make it right. And

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Speaker 1: I just make the parallel that the agreement that was

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Speaker 1: entered into that enabled the British to stay here. It

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Speaker 1: is set down, it's readable, and all of the historical

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Speaker 1: interpretation and research and context that's all clear. And rewriting

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Speaker 1: it is just an exercise and writing it that's not

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Speaker 1: that's what he's trying to do. No, that's what he's

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Speaker 1: trying to do. He's trying to actually say it doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean what it says. We're going to have a debate.

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Speaker 2: That's the whole point of principles to helmet. Sorry, that's

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Speaker 2: the whole point of principles. All of the principles. Do this, right,

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Speaker 2: all of the principles look at the articles in the

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Speaker 2: treaty and say this, we have to find a way

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Speaker 2: to apply this to twenty twenty four New Zealand and

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Speaker 2: then extract from it. That's all that this is doing.

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Speaker 2: He's not rewriting anything. He's just writing three principles to

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Speaker 2: override all the other principles.

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Speaker 1: Well, he's wanting to do that, but his There's two

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Speaker 1: observations I'd make in that connection. First Off, he still

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Speaker 1: is not acknowledging, not in any of his literature nor

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Speaker 1: anything he said, that the treaty actually means what it says.

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Speaker 1: His interpretation of those words are for LASiS. So that's

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Speaker 1: first point. Second point is, and I've spoken to them

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Speaker 1: directly about this, is when it comes to the interpretation

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Speaker 1: of law, whether it's constitutional law or any others whose

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Speaker 1: job is that to do that. That's that is literally

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Speaker 1: the job of the judiciary. That's what judges and judiciary do,

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Speaker 1: right and so what so I've asked, David, so why

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Speaker 1: have you moved away from that tried and true international

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Speaker 1: Really some balance.

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Speaker 2: For you the judges and lunatics in this country at

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Speaker 2: the moment, aren't they the helmet Listen thank you, haven't

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Speaker 2: got any more time, but really appreciate it as always

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Speaker 2: love chatting to you that helmet model like chief Executive.

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