WEBVTT - NZ sanctions Israeli ministers as Gaza humanitarian crisis worsens: Should we be doing more?

0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:05.720
<v Speaker 1>Kiota.

0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:15.720
<v Speaker 2>daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. More than

0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:20.080
<v Speaker 2>six hundred days of war and an eleven week blockade

0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.840
<v Speaker 2>of all aid has pushed those living in Gaza into

0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:29.160
<v Speaker 2>a deeper crisis. Israel imposed a full humanitarian blockade of

0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:32.840
<v Speaker 2>Gaza in March, cutting off food, medical supplies and other

0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.839
<v Speaker 2>aid to more than two million Palestinians, and while some

0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.240
<v Speaker 2>aid has been allowed in in recent weeks, many countries

0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:43.080
<v Speaker 2>are calling for more to be done. New Zealand has

0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:48.480
<v Speaker 2>joined the condemnation, placing travel restrictions against two Israeli ministers,

0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.159
<v Speaker 2>but is that going to be enough to send a

0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.959
<v Speaker 2>strong message? Today on the Front Page where joined by

0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.800
<v Speaker 2>University of Waikato professor Alexander Gillesbie to get into the

0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:03.080
<v Speaker 2>latest on the old im going Israel Hamas conflict.

0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.479
<v Speaker 1>Ol looking at the war a little broader.

0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.399
<v Speaker 2>Are we only closer to ceasefires or an end to

0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:13.600
<v Speaker 2>the war at all?

0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.160
<v Speaker 3>We don't seem to have any end in sight and

0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.319
<v Speaker 3>this is just an absolute tragedy because the scale of

0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:24.320
<v Speaker 3>human suffering is terrible and we need to find a

0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:26.679
<v Speaker 3>pathway to end it. But even the simple step of

0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.600
<v Speaker 3>getting to a ceasefire right now, where by all sides

0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.040
<v Speaker 3>abide and have faith in each other that the rules

0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.080
<v Speaker 3>will be adhered to is very remote.

0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.959
<v Speaker 2>Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced that New Zealand has

0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.800
<v Speaker 2>joined the likes of Australia, Canada, the UK and Norway

0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:47.920
<v Speaker 2>in placing travel bands on Two extremist Israeli politicians are

0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:53.680
<v Speaker 2>the country's Finance Minister, Bazileel Smotrek and National Secretary Minister

0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:55.240
<v Speaker 2>It's amar Ben Gevert.

0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:55.960
<v Speaker 1>Who are they?

0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:01.080
<v Speaker 3>There are two outspoken ministers in support of increasing settlement

0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.080
<v Speaker 3>in the occupied territories. It's not the first time that

0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:08.840
<v Speaker 3>New Zealand has sanctioned people for their extremist views. But

0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:12.160
<v Speaker 3>what's unique about this is that it's moving from particular

0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.959
<v Speaker 3>settlers who have got extreme views through to government ministers.

0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.000
<v Speaker 3>And once you start sanctioning government ministers, it's quite possible

0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.679
<v Speaker 3>that there will be some diplomatic fallout of this, not

0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:23.240
<v Speaker 3>the least the fact that we see to have all

0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.119
<v Speaker 3>cited America at the same time.

0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:26.120
<v Speaker 1>In the same breath.

0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.600
<v Speaker 2>I saw that Peters said the action is not against

0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:34.080
<v Speaker 2>the Israeli people who suffered immeasurably on October seven, and

0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.280
<v Speaker 2>who have continued to suffer through her mass's ongoing a

0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.560
<v Speaker 2>refusal to release all hostages. This really highlights that tight

0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.639
<v Speaker 2>rope that countries are having to walk here. Hey, any

0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.600
<v Speaker 2>criticism of what Israel is doing in Gaza, and Israel

0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.079
<v Speaker 2>points out that they were struck first.

0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.440
<v Speaker 3>Israel is correct that the crimes that were committed against

0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:59.040
<v Speaker 3>them were egregious. They were terrible, the murder, that the rape,

0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:03.959
<v Speaker 3>the extra brutality. There's no forgiving for what happened there.

0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.360
<v Speaker 3>But on the other hand, whenever a country respond, it

0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.200
<v Speaker 3>must be done in a way which is focused and

0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.720
<v Speaker 3>not disproportionate to the actual incident it happened. And what

0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.560
<v Speaker 3>you've got now is a disproportionate response where the population

0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.440
<v Speaker 3>is suffering for the crimes of the mass. And that's

0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.320
<v Speaker 3>just wrong. It's not just wrong ethically, it's wrong legally.

0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:24.000
<v Speaker 3>And where it becomes an issue is for a country

0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:26.640
<v Speaker 3>like New Zealand, it's not about being pro Israel or

0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:29.600
<v Speaker 3>anti Israel. It's about being pro a rules based order

0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:31.959
<v Speaker 3>where there are rules around warfare, where there are rules

0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.440
<v Speaker 3>around annexation, and there are rules around how countries are

0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:37.240
<v Speaker 3>meant to behave and so it's a mistake to see

0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.400
<v Speaker 3>this isn't us verse the m thing. It's opposed to

0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.800
<v Speaker 3>us being in support of internationally agrees rules that allow

0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:44.240
<v Speaker 3>us to have a basis of civilization.

0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.280
<v Speaker 2>I saw that the US has been quick to denounce

0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.040
<v Speaker 2>the sanctions by Britain and its allies, including US, saying

0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.160
<v Speaker 2>we should focus instead on her mass solely.

0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:01.080
<v Speaker 4>We find that extremely unhelpful, will do nothing to get

0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:05.560
<v Speaker 4>us closer to a ceasefire in Gaza. This again is

0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:10.760
<v Speaker 4>about allied sanctions against Israeli ministers. They should focus on

0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:14.920
<v Speaker 4>this being UK, Canada, Norway and New Zealand should focus

0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:16.520
<v Speaker 4>on the real culprit, which is harmas.

0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:20.400
<v Speaker 1>Are they right?

0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.800
<v Speaker 3>It's important to be focused on her maas. But there

0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.320
<v Speaker 3>are two sides to this equation, and this is about

0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.200
<v Speaker 3>the rights of the Palestinian people to have their own

0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.360
<v Speaker 3>state and the rights of well the rules around warfare,

0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:36.560
<v Speaker 3>such as making sure that there's no starvation against the

0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:41.120
<v Speaker 3>collective population being adhered to. And there is terrible things

0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:43.800
<v Speaker 3>we're done to Israel, without doubt, but terrible things have

0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:45.760
<v Speaker 3>been done to the Palestinian people, often who were not

0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:47.960
<v Speaker 3>caught up in the conflict at the same time, and

0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.200
<v Speaker 3>what we need to be during is trying to focus

0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.080
<v Speaker 3>on where the rules are that we all adhere to.

0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:55.160
<v Speaker 3>The problem is is that some countries see the rules

0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:57.400
<v Speaker 3>and other countries don't see the rules. And what you're

0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.880
<v Speaker 3>seeing now with America and Europe is vision. But this

0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.720
<v Speaker 3>division is bigger than Gaza. This division is also about

0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.080
<v Speaker 3>Ukraine and wher geopolitical circumstances. In a country like New

0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.440
<v Speaker 3>Zealand is either going to follow the American approach or

0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.240
<v Speaker 3>the European approach, and that is going to get increasingly difficult.

0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.719
<v Speaker 2>It's not the first time New Zealand has enforced targeted

0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:20.200
<v Speaker 2>travel bands on politicians and military leaders. I'm thinking Russia, Belarus,

0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Miaan Mark. What is the significance of this, because what's

0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:28.480
<v Speaker 2>the likelihood of Smotrek or Ben Gevert actually hopping on

0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.280
<v Speaker 2>a plane and going to New Zealand for refuge?

0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:35.160
<v Speaker 3>Pretty remote And a lot of these sanctions were against

0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:40.000
<v Speaker 3>these countries, against named individuals. They're important symbolically, they're not

0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.560
<v Speaker 3>really important in terms of actually deterring them from their

0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.800
<v Speaker 3>summertime holiday. What this does, though, is it shows that

0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.080
<v Speaker 3>New Zealand takes the issue seriously, and we are having

0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.320
<v Speaker 3>a targeted approach to express our disapproval. The bigger question,

0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:54.320
<v Speaker 3>and what you see with the Europeans doing this at

0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.160
<v Speaker 3>the moment, is whether you go further than targeting individuals

0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:01.360
<v Speaker 3>do also potentially economic or diplomatic or cultural sanctions. And

0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.880
<v Speaker 3>so this is the range of sanctions that you can

0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.400
<v Speaker 3>have against the country are wide, and they're either unilateral

0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:09.760
<v Speaker 3>done by one country or the multilateral done by a

0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.000
<v Speaker 3>group of countries. The multilateral approach through the UN has

0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.559
<v Speaker 3>broken down, and so we can't get agreement that everyone

0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.480
<v Speaker 3>should sanction one particular country. So it forced on individual

0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.680
<v Speaker 3>countries to do that and then work out what's best

0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:22.920
<v Speaker 3>for them of how far they're willing to push. Some

0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.160
<v Speaker 3>countries in Europe are willing to push harder on Israel

0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.400
<v Speaker 3>than others. New Zealand at the moment is in the

0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.360
<v Speaker 3>European camp, but at the shallow end of what other

0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:31.320
<v Speaker 3>countries are willing to do.

0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.000
<v Speaker 2>What can be done to end the blockade on AID?

0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.719
<v Speaker 2>I read a harrowing quote on CNN. A woman who

0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:40.680
<v Speaker 2>was trying to get food for a family at one

0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.919
<v Speaker 2>of the aid distribution science told a reporter, we're so

0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.200
<v Speaker 2>hungry that we're willing to rest getting shot for just

0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:48.760
<v Speaker 2>a kilo of flower.

0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.680
<v Speaker 1>So when and how does this end it?

0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.280
<v Speaker 3>Starvation or forcing extreme hunger is one of the most

0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.960
<v Speaker 3>inhumane things you can do on an individual or a population.

0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.279
<v Speaker 3>It is completely wrong. This is barbarism that belongs in

0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.080
<v Speaker 3>the Middle Ages. It does not belong in the twenty

0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.400
<v Speaker 3>first century. The international law is clear on this. What

0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.479
<v Speaker 3>we need to do is completely reiterate the rule that

0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.880
<v Speaker 3>starvation is a method of warfare against the civilian population

0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.240
<v Speaker 3>is wrong. It's wrong ethically and it's wrong legally. What

0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:18.240
<v Speaker 3>we need to be pushing for is not only for

0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:20.960
<v Speaker 3>a lifting of the blockade to make sure that non

0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.240
<v Speaker 3>contraband of which foods can get through the civilian population,

0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.360
<v Speaker 3>but also that it's distributed through reputable international organizations like

0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.000
<v Speaker 3>the Red Cross or through the World Food Program. You

0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.480
<v Speaker 3>can't let aid and humanitarian assistant to become politicized in

0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:36.280
<v Speaker 3>terms of who gives it out or what's given to

0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:37.440
<v Speaker 3>particular populations.

0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.680
<v Speaker 2>According to ABC News, at least one hundred and sixty

0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.800
<v Speaker 2>three people have been killed while trying to get aid

0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:48.040
<v Speaker 2>from the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation just this week. The Hamas

0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:51.320
<v Speaker 2>run Gaza Ministry of Health claimed at least thirty six

0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.480
<v Speaker 2>people were killed attempting to get aid. That's the highest

0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:57.880
<v Speaker 2>death toll from a shooting near a distribution center in Gaza.

0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:02.160
<v Speaker 2>There's rail Defense forces said though that it fired warning

0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:06.080
<v Speaker 2>shots to distance suspects who were advancing in the area

0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.320
<v Speaker 2>and posed a threat to troops.

0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:09.920
<v Speaker 1>Who do we believe.

0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.880
<v Speaker 3>Here be skeptical of everyone. Everyone's got a reason not

0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.440
<v Speaker 3>to be direct and transparent about this. What you need

0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:22.080
<v Speaker 3>in these situations are international neutral observers whereby they've got

0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.560
<v Speaker 3>a blue helmet on or they're the Red Cross, or

0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.960
<v Speaker 3>they're the World Food Program, and the people without a

0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.240
<v Speaker 3>vest of interest. Hamas has a vest of interest. The

0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.000
<v Speaker 3>Israeli military has a vest of interest. You need independent

0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.240
<v Speaker 3>people in there to make sure that the rules are

0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.800
<v Speaker 3>adhered to in the aid is distributed on mass. But

0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:39.440
<v Speaker 3>what you've created, what's being created right now, is a

0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.719
<v Speaker 3>pressure cockotype situation where hungry people are tending upon the

0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:48.200
<v Speaker 3>minimal aid distribution which exists. It's an extremely bad situation.

0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:01.640
<v Speaker 2>Swedish activist Greater Tunberg left Israel on a flight to

0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:06.079
<v Speaker 2>France after being detained by Israeli forces alongside other activists.

0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.240
<v Speaker 1>They were on board an AID ship bound for Gaza.

0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.560
<v Speaker 2>It was intercepted earlier this week, with Israel describing it

0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.360
<v Speaker 2>as a selfie yacht carrying celebrities.

0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.840
<v Speaker 1>My name is Gebe Timber and i am from Sweden.

0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.080
<v Speaker 2>If you see this video, we have been intercepted and

0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:28.120
<v Speaker 2>kidnapped in international waters by the Israeli occupational forces or

0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:35.160
<v Speaker 2>forces that support Israel. The capture of Greta made international headlines.

0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.560
<v Speaker 2>So while they didn't succeed in carrying aid to Gaza,

0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:40.679
<v Speaker 2>have they succeeded in other ways?

0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.920
<v Speaker 3>Perhaps the both succeeded in putting a spotlight on the

0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:48.280
<v Speaker 3>continuing problem, and that is useful. But it's important to

0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.440
<v Speaker 3>note that the rule to blockade which Israel has applied

0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:55.440
<v Speaker 3>if it's done within Israeli waters, are lawful. They are

0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.880
<v Speaker 3>able to blockade areas of conflict, and no person has

0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.120
<v Speaker 3>the right to sail to another country, no matter how

0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:05.200
<v Speaker 3>well intentioned, with a small amount of assistant that you

0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.160
<v Speaker 3>don't have that right in times of conflict. The good

0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:12.520
<v Speaker 3>part about this situation is that there's been previous attempts

0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:16.679
<v Speaker 3>to breach Israeli blockades around the occupied territories, and they

0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.679
<v Speaker 3>ended in violence. In twenty ten, this attempt seems to

0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.600
<v Speaker 3>have been dealt with much better. Where the people have

0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.640
<v Speaker 3>been detained, that appears to be no injury, and I've

0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.920
<v Speaker 3>exited the people, which is an improvement on a shocking

0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:28.880
<v Speaker 3>situation to begin with.

0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.680
<v Speaker 1>Mister President Man, do you have a message for Greta

0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:35.800
<v Speaker 1>Tunberg and did she come up on your call with

0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:36.880
<v Speaker 1>the Prime Minister today?

0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.760
<v Speaker 5>Well, she's a strange person. She's a young, angry person.

0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:41.240
<v Speaker 5>I don't know if it's real anger, so I had

0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:46.600
<v Speaker 5>to believe actually, but I saw what happened. She's certainly

0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.920
<v Speaker 5>different anger management. I think she has to go to

0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:55.000
<v Speaker 5>an anger management last, that's my primary recommendation for her.

0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:59.960
<v Speaker 1>Why Israel, as she says, she I can I find it?

0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:04.520
<v Speaker 5>I think Israel has enough problems without kidnapping Gratathunburg.

0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.079
<v Speaker 2>When it comes to the blockade out, is it illegal

0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:12.240
<v Speaker 2>or legal?

0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.800
<v Speaker 1>In international law terms.

0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.400
<v Speaker 3>That blockades are legal, and that these are one of

0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.080
<v Speaker 3>the earliest rules of war, dating back to the Middle Ages,

0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:25.199
<v Speaker 3>whereby you can isolate an enemy to prevent them getting contraband.

0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:27.800
<v Speaker 3>And for a long time the debate was what is

0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.440
<v Speaker 3>contraband like? Obviously that's things like weapons, but originally it

0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.960
<v Speaker 3>used to cover food. But in the in betweentieth century

0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.280
<v Speaker 3>and in between the first century, we agree that food

0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.600
<v Speaker 3>is not contraband so all wouldings you should allow into

0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.520
<v Speaker 3>a country, you should not stop food and assistance. But

0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.200
<v Speaker 3>the rules are is that the occupying power, which in

0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:50.359
<v Speaker 3>this case is Israel, has the right to control that access.

0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.839
<v Speaker 3>And so even though in theory food should be allowed

0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.160
<v Speaker 3>in freely, the ability of Israel to control that lever

0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.120
<v Speaker 3>is strong. So what we need to be doing is

0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:05.480
<v Speaker 3>trying to make sure that Israel accepts neutral parties like

0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.640
<v Speaker 3>the Red Cross, like the World Food Program to freely

0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.840
<v Speaker 3>distribute food and food should not be weaponized or assistants

0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.319
<v Speaker 3>should not be weaponized as a way to force the

0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.720
<v Speaker 3>har mass which did terrible crimes, to make them change

0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:18.360
<v Speaker 3>their minds.

0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Right, So the blockade seems like kind of an archaic

0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.160
<v Speaker 2>tool of warfare. Should the rules be, like, how do

0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:30.040
<v Speaker 2>the rules change to allow food in? Because technically, I

0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:35.080
<v Speaker 2>suppose quotes, they're not doing anything technically illegal.

0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:39.000
<v Speaker 3>So blockade and the stopping of food was a weapon

0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:41.560
<v Speaker 3>that was used to huge impact in the First World

0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.080
<v Speaker 3>War and in the Second World War. In the First

0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.640
<v Speaker 3>World War around occupying Europe by the Germans, and the

0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.360
<v Speaker 3>Second World War, Japan had a very effective blockade put

0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:52.559
<v Speaker 3>around it where they tried to use starvation as a

0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.200
<v Speaker 3>method as well. Post the war from the nineteen seventies

0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.560
<v Speaker 3>they said that you can still have blockade, but you

0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.280
<v Speaker 3>can only stop the weapons and the direct support to

0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.760
<v Speaker 3>the enemy fighting force. You can't just try to make

0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:09.960
<v Speaker 3>a civilian population pay the price for what their military did. So.

0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.640
<v Speaker 3>But the second rule is that even though food should

0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.200
<v Speaker 3>not be contraband, is that an occupying force still has

0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.960
<v Speaker 3>the right to control the access of that humanitarian aid.

0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.120
<v Speaker 3>The only way you could change that is if you

0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.360
<v Speaker 3>had the Security Council say, open up the gates, let

0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:28.800
<v Speaker 3>these groups come in and distribute the food. But that's

0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:30.880
<v Speaker 3>not happening right now because America has now got a

0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 3>best of interest in a particular provider who's not an

0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.720
<v Speaker 3>international source that doesn't necessarily abide by the same rules

0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:39.880
<v Speaker 3>as say the World Food Program or UNICET or the

0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:40.480
<v Speaker 3>Red Cross.

0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Now do you think the tide is turning a little

0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.640
<v Speaker 2>bit against Israel. You're seeing more countries be bolder in

0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.839
<v Speaker 2>what they're saying about the country's war efforts and about

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.800
<v Speaker 2>its leader. Is that pressure for them going to end

0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:54.920
<v Speaker 2>the war growing?

0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.160
<v Speaker 3>I don't know all conflicts eventually end, but if you

0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.240
<v Speaker 3>look at the history of the conflict around Israel and

0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:04.719
<v Speaker 3>the Middle East, that they go back until the late

0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.560
<v Speaker 3>nineteen forties, and to the minds of many people, this

0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.520
<v Speaker 3>isn't an intergenerational problem, and we just keep going backwards

0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.840
<v Speaker 3>and forwards between atrocities and reprisals and to get to

0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.600
<v Speaker 3>that point of peace. It will come, but at the

0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:20.720
<v Speaker 3>moment it's I don't think it's a many to in

0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.760
<v Speaker 3>future because although some countries are speaking out, we're not

0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.080
<v Speaker 3>speaking with force, and that international rules based order which

0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.120
<v Speaker 3>you need to get that change does not exist. And

0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.840
<v Speaker 3>in particular with the United States and at one position

0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.600
<v Speaker 3>and the Europeans and US in another, we can't even

0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.000
<v Speaker 3>get a cohesion between the allies, let alone those which

0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:39.440
<v Speaker 3>aren't friendly countries to US.

0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:39.640
<v Speaker 5>Well.

0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:41.560
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, the US has said it no

0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:46.040
<v Speaker 2>longer actively is pursuing a two state solution. I know

0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.520
<v Speaker 2>we've talked before about what small countries can do when

0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.960
<v Speaker 2>they work together, but are those efforts futile if the

0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:54.640
<v Speaker 2>US isn't on board.

0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.800
<v Speaker 3>It makes it really hard, and the two state solution

0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.280
<v Speaker 3>is a difficult scenario. There's so many steps that you've

0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.520
<v Speaker 3>got to get involved with it. You've got questioned about

0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.560
<v Speaker 3>what to do with the refugees, what to do with

0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.840
<v Speaker 3>the territory, what to do with the governance, and whether

0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.000
<v Speaker 3>you've got to exclude or I would argue you must

0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:15.400
<v Speaker 3>exclude groups which are terrorist organizations. It's very hard equation

0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.600
<v Speaker 3>to solve, but it's the only real viable, long term

0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.160
<v Speaker 3>option towards what peace may look like in this area.

0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:22.920
<v Speaker 3>The alternative of what you've got right now is that

0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:24.960
<v Speaker 3>mister Trump has put on the proposal of kind of

0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.000
<v Speaker 3>like a Rivi era of the Middle East, where he

0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.760
<v Speaker 3>wants to kind of rebuild and exit those two million

0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.520
<v Speaker 3>people from Gaza. And it's simply not plausible as an option.

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.200
<v Speaker 3>And so you've got to come back to what might work,

0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:38.520
<v Speaker 3>even if it's difficult, and that is the two state solution.

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.240
<v Speaker 1>And finally, are we doing enough?

0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Should we be bolder in trying to get more aid

0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.800
<v Speaker 2>into Gaza and pushing for an end to the war.

0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.680
<v Speaker 3>Born in New Zealand. I think we're doing We're on

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.920
<v Speaker 3>the right track to follow the Europeans and the important

0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 3>part is not to get ahead of the Europeans or

0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.840
<v Speaker 3>behind the Europeans. And I think mister Peters has positioned

0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.800
<v Speaker 3>us as a big ginning point quite well. What will

0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:03.600
<v Speaker 3>happen from here, though, is that you may see a

0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.400
<v Speaker 3>reaction from Israel, and that it's while we've sanctioned people before,

0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.840
<v Speaker 3>we've never sanctioned government ministers, and so it's possible that

0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.000
<v Speaker 3>there will be a diplomatic reply, and you might find

0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.640
<v Speaker 3>that some of our ministers have similt sanctions placed against them,

0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.320
<v Speaker 3>and so this may yet escalate. And if it does escalate,

0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:21.480
<v Speaker 3>we're going to work out how we.

0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.840
<v Speaker 2>Reply to that and what about it In the shorter term,

0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.880
<v Speaker 2>how do we get that humanitarian aid into Gaza.

0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.240
<v Speaker 3>We don't control that debate, that we can make our

0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.440
<v Speaker 3>voice known that you must adhere to a rules based order,

0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.440
<v Speaker 3>that starvation is a method of warfare, it is prohibited,

0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.160
<v Speaker 3>and that you want neutral bodies to distribute the aid.

0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.760
<v Speaker 3>We have to keep saying that, and we have to

0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.280
<v Speaker 3>be willing to argue that more at the international level

0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 3>than we currently are, although that is emerging through the UN.

0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:49.880
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us, OU We'll welcome Chelsea.

0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.560
<v Speaker 2>That's it. For this episode of the Front Page. You

0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:01.400
<v Speaker 2>can read more about today's stories and extend news coverage

0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:05.440
<v Speaker 2>at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.240
<v Speaker 2>produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also

0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:10.480
<v Speaker 2>our sound engineer.

0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:12.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm Chelsea Daniels.

0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.199
<v Speaker 2>Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:20.040
<v Speaker 2>get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look

0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:21.360
<v Speaker 2>behind the headlines.