1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. More than 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 2: six hundred days of war and an eleven week blockade 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: of all aid has pushed those living in Gaza into 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 2: a deeper crisis. Israel imposed a full humanitarian blockade of 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 2: Gaza in March, cutting off food, medical supplies and other 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: aid to more than two million Palestinians, and while some 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 2: aid has been allowed in in recent weeks, many countries 10 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: are calling for more to be done. New Zealand has 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 2: joined the condemnation, placing travel restrictions against two Israeli ministers, 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: but is that going to be enough to send a 13 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 2: strong message? Today on the Front Page where joined by 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: University of Waikato professor Alexander Gillesbie to get into the 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: latest on the old im going Israel Hamas conflict. 16 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: Ol looking at the war a little broader. 17 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 2: Are we only closer to ceasefires or an end to 18 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: the war at all? 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 3: We don't seem to have any end in sight and 20 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 3: this is just an absolute tragedy because the scale of 21 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 3: human suffering is terrible and we need to find a 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 3: pathway to end it. But even the simple step of 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 3: getting to a ceasefire right now, where by all sides 24 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 3: abide and have faith in each other that the rules 25 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 3: will be adhered to is very remote. 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 2: Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced that New Zealand has 27 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: joined the likes of Australia, Canada, the UK and Norway 28 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: in placing travel bands on Two extremist Israeli politicians are 29 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: the country's Finance Minister, Bazileel Smotrek and National Secretary Minister 30 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: It's amar Ben Gevert. 31 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: Who are they? 32 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 3: There are two outspoken ministers in support of increasing settlement 33 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 3: in the occupied territories. It's not the first time that 34 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 3: New Zealand has sanctioned people for their extremist views. But 35 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 3: what's unique about this is that it's moving from particular 36 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 3: settlers who have got extreme views through to government ministers. 37 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 3: And once you start sanctioning government ministers, it's quite possible 38 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,679 Speaker 3: that there will be some diplomatic fallout of this, not 39 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 3: the least the fact that we see to have all 40 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,119 Speaker 3: cited America at the same time. 41 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: In the same breath. 42 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: I saw that Peters said the action is not against 43 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: the Israeli people who suffered immeasurably on October seven, and 44 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: who have continued to suffer through her mass's ongoing a 45 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: refusal to release all hostages. This really highlights that tight 46 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 2: rope that countries are having to walk here. Hey, any 47 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 2: criticism of what Israel is doing in Gaza, and Israel 48 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 2: points out that they were struck first. 49 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 3: Israel is correct that the crimes that were committed against 50 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 3: them were egregious. They were terrible, the murder, that the rape, 51 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 3: the extra brutality. There's no forgiving for what happened there. 52 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 3: But on the other hand, whenever a country respond, it 53 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: must be done in a way which is focused and 54 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 3: not disproportionate to the actual incident it happened. And what 55 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 3: you've got now is a disproportionate response where the population 56 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: is suffering for the crimes of the mass. And that's 57 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 3: just wrong. It's not just wrong ethically, it's wrong legally. 58 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: And where it becomes an issue is for a country 59 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 3: like New Zealand, it's not about being pro Israel or 60 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 3: anti Israel. It's about being pro a rules based order 61 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 3: where there are rules around warfare, where there are rules 62 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 3: around annexation, and there are rules around how countries are 63 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 3: meant to behave and so it's a mistake to see 64 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 3: this isn't us verse the m thing. It's opposed to 65 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 3: us being in support of internationally agrees rules that allow 66 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: us to have a basis of civilization. 67 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: I saw that the US has been quick to denounce 68 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: the sanctions by Britain and its allies, including US, saying 69 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: we should focus instead on her mass solely. 70 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 4: We find that extremely unhelpful, will do nothing to get 71 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 4: us closer to a ceasefire in Gaza. This again is 72 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 4: about allied sanctions against Israeli ministers. They should focus on 73 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 4: this being UK, Canada, Norway and New Zealand should focus 74 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 4: on the real culprit, which is harmas. 75 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: Are they right? 76 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: It's important to be focused on her maas. But there 77 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: are two sides to this equation, and this is about 78 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 3: the rights of the Palestinian people to have their own 79 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 3: state and the rights of well the rules around warfare, 80 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 3: such as making sure that there's no starvation against the 81 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 3: collective population being adhered to. And there is terrible things 82 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 3: we're done to Israel, without doubt, but terrible things have 83 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: been done to the Palestinian people, often who were not 84 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: caught up in the conflict at the same time, and 85 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: what we need to be during is trying to focus 86 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 3: on where the rules are that we all adhere to. 87 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 3: The problem is is that some countries see the rules 88 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 3: and other countries don't see the rules. And what you're 89 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: seeing now with America and Europe is vision. But this 90 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 3: division is bigger than Gaza. This division is also about 91 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 3: Ukraine and wher geopolitical circumstances. In a country like New 92 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 3: Zealand is either going to follow the American approach or 93 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 3: the European approach, and that is going to get increasingly difficult. 94 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 2: It's not the first time New Zealand has enforced targeted 95 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: travel bands on politicians and military leaders. I'm thinking Russia, Belarus, 96 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: Miaan Mark. What is the significance of this, because what's 97 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: the likelihood of Smotrek or Ben Gevert actually hopping on 98 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 2: a plane and going to New Zealand for refuge? 99 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 3: Pretty remote And a lot of these sanctions were against 100 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 3: these countries, against named individuals. They're important symbolically, they're not 101 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: really important in terms of actually deterring them from their 102 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 3: summertime holiday. What this does, though, is it shows that 103 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 3: New Zealand takes the issue seriously, and we are having 104 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 3: a targeted approach to express our disapproval. The bigger question, 105 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 3: and what you see with the Europeans doing this at 106 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 3: the moment, is whether you go further than targeting individuals 107 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 3: do also potentially economic or diplomatic or cultural sanctions. And 108 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: so this is the range of sanctions that you can 109 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 3: have against the country are wide, and they're either unilateral 110 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 3: done by one country or the multilateral done by a 111 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 3: group of countries. The multilateral approach through the UN has 112 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,559 Speaker 3: broken down, and so we can't get agreement that everyone 113 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 3: should sanction one particular country. So it forced on individual 114 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 3: countries to do that and then work out what's best 115 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 3: for them of how far they're willing to push. Some 116 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 3: countries in Europe are willing to push harder on Israel 117 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 3: than others. New Zealand at the moment is in the 118 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 3: European camp, but at the shallow end of what other 119 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 3: countries are willing to do. 120 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 2: What can be done to end the blockade on AID? 121 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: I read a harrowing quote on CNN. A woman who 122 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 2: was trying to get food for a family at one 123 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 2: of the aid distribution science told a reporter, we're so 124 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: hungry that we're willing to rest getting shot for just 125 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: a kilo of flower. 126 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: So when and how does this end it? 127 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 3: Starvation or forcing extreme hunger is one of the most 128 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 3: inhumane things you can do on an individual or a population. 129 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 3: It is completely wrong. This is barbarism that belongs in 130 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: the Middle Ages. It does not belong in the twenty 131 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 3: first century. The international law is clear on this. What 132 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 3: we need to do is completely reiterate the rule that 133 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 3: starvation is a method of warfare against the civilian population 134 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 3: is wrong. It's wrong ethically and it's wrong legally. What 135 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 3: we need to be pushing for is not only for 136 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 3: a lifting of the blockade to make sure that non 137 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 3: contraband of which foods can get through the civilian population, 138 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: but also that it's distributed through reputable international organizations like 139 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 3: the Red Cross or through the World Food Program. You 140 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 3: can't let aid and humanitarian assistant to become politicized in 141 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 3: terms of who gives it out or what's given to 142 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 3: particular populations. 143 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: According to ABC News, at least one hundred and sixty 144 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 2: three people have been killed while trying to get aid 145 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: from the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation just this week. The Hamas 146 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: run Gaza Ministry of Health claimed at least thirty six 147 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: people were killed attempting to get aid. That's the highest 148 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: death toll from a shooting near a distribution center in Gaza. 149 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: There's rail Defense forces said though that it fired warning 150 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: shots to distance suspects who were advancing in the area 151 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: and posed a threat to troops. 152 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: Who do we believe. 153 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 3: Here be skeptical of everyone. Everyone's got a reason not 154 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 3: to be direct and transparent about this. What you need 155 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 3: in these situations are international neutral observers whereby they've got 156 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 3: a blue helmet on or they're the Red Cross, or 157 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 3: they're the World Food Program, and the people without a 158 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 3: vest of interest. Hamas has a vest of interest. The 159 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 3: Israeli military has a vest of interest. You need independent 160 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 3: people in there to make sure that the rules are 161 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 3: adhered to in the aid is distributed on mass. But 162 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 3: what you've created, what's being created right now, is a 163 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,719 Speaker 3: pressure cockotype situation where hungry people are tending upon the 164 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 3: minimal aid distribution which exists. It's an extremely bad situation. 165 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: Swedish activist Greater Tunberg left Israel on a flight to 166 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 2: France after being detained by Israeli forces alongside other activists. 167 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: They were on board an AID ship bound for Gaza. 168 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 2: It was intercepted earlier this week, with Israel describing it 169 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: as a selfie yacht carrying celebrities. 170 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: My name is Gebe Timber and i am from Sweden. 171 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 2: If you see this video, we have been intercepted and 172 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: kidnapped in international waters by the Israeli occupational forces or 173 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 2: forces that support Israel. The capture of Greta made international headlines. 174 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: So while they didn't succeed in carrying aid to Gaza, 175 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 2: have they succeeded in other ways? 176 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 3: Perhaps the both succeeded in putting a spotlight on the 177 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 3: continuing problem, and that is useful. But it's important to 178 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 3: note that the rule to blockade which Israel has applied 179 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 3: if it's done within Israeli waters, are lawful. They are 180 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 3: able to blockade areas of conflict, and no person has 181 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: the right to sail to another country, no matter how 182 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 3: well intentioned, with a small amount of assistant that you 183 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 3: don't have that right in times of conflict. The good 184 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 3: part about this situation is that there's been previous attempts 185 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 3: to breach Israeli blockades around the occupied territories, and they 186 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 3: ended in violence. In twenty ten, this attempt seems to 187 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 3: have been dealt with much better. Where the people have 188 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 3: been detained, that appears to be no injury, and I've 189 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 3: exited the people, which is an improvement on a shocking 190 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 3: situation to begin with. 191 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: Mister President Man, do you have a message for Greta 192 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: Tunberg and did she come up on your call with 193 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister today? 194 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 5: Well, she's a strange person. She's a young, angry person. 195 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 5: I don't know if it's real anger, so I had 196 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 5: to believe actually, but I saw what happened. She's certainly 197 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 5: different anger management. I think she has to go to 198 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 5: an anger management last, that's my primary recommendation for her. 199 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: Why Israel, as she says, she I can I find it? 200 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 5: I think Israel has enough problems without kidnapping Gratathunburg. 201 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 2: When it comes to the blockade out, is it illegal 202 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: or legal? 203 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: In international law terms. 204 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: That blockades are legal, and that these are one of 205 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 3: the earliest rules of war, dating back to the Middle Ages, 206 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 3: whereby you can isolate an enemy to prevent them getting contraband. 207 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 3: And for a long time the debate was what is 208 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 3: contraband like? Obviously that's things like weapons, but originally it 209 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 3: used to cover food. But in the in betweentieth century 210 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 3: and in between the first century, we agree that food 211 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 3: is not contraband so all wouldings you should allow into 212 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 3: a country, you should not stop food and assistance. But 213 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 3: the rules are is that the occupying power, which in 214 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,359 Speaker 3: this case is Israel, has the right to control that access. 215 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 3: And so even though in theory food should be allowed 216 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 3: in freely, the ability of Israel to control that lever 217 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 3: is strong. So what we need to be doing is 218 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 3: trying to make sure that Israel accepts neutral parties like 219 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 3: the Red Cross, like the World Food Program to freely 220 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 3: distribute food and food should not be weaponized or assistants 221 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 3: should not be weaponized as a way to force the 222 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 3: har mass which did terrible crimes, to make them change 223 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 3: their minds. 224 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: Right, So the blockade seems like kind of an archaic 225 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 2: tool of warfare. Should the rules be, like, how do 226 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: the rules change to allow food in? Because technically, I 227 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 2: suppose quotes, they're not doing anything technically illegal. 228 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 3: So blockade and the stopping of food was a weapon 229 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 3: that was used to huge impact in the First World 230 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 3: War and in the Second World War. In the First 231 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 3: World War around occupying Europe by the Germans, and the 232 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 3: Second World War, Japan had a very effective blockade put 233 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 3: around it where they tried to use starvation as a 234 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 3: method as well. Post the war from the nineteen seventies 235 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 3: they said that you can still have blockade, but you 236 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 3: can only stop the weapons and the direct support to 237 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 3: the enemy fighting force. You can't just try to make 238 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: a civilian population pay the price for what their military did. So. 239 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 3: But the second rule is that even though food should 240 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 3: not be contraband, is that an occupying force still has 241 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 3: the right to control the access of that humanitarian aid. 242 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 3: The only way you could change that is if you 243 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 3: had the Security Council say, open up the gates, let 244 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 3: these groups come in and distribute the food. But that's 245 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 3: not happening right now because America has now got a 246 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: best of interest in a particular provider who's not an 247 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 3: international source that doesn't necessarily abide by the same rules 248 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: as say the World Food Program or UNICET or the 249 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 3: Red Cross. 250 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: Now do you think the tide is turning a little 251 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: bit against Israel. You're seeing more countries be bolder in 252 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 2: what they're saying about the country's war efforts and about 253 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: its leader. Is that pressure for them going to end 254 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 2: the war growing? 255 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 3: I don't know all conflicts eventually end, but if you 256 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 3: look at the history of the conflict around Israel and 257 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,719 Speaker 3: the Middle East, that they go back until the late 258 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 3: nineteen forties, and to the minds of many people, this 259 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 3: isn't an intergenerational problem, and we just keep going backwards 260 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: and forwards between atrocities and reprisals and to get to 261 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 3: that point of peace. It will come, but at the 262 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 3: moment it's I don't think it's a many to in 263 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 3: future because although some countries are speaking out, we're not 264 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 3: speaking with force, and that international rules based order which 265 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: you need to get that change does not exist. And 266 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 3: in particular with the United States and at one position 267 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 3: and the Europeans and US in another, we can't even 268 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 3: get a cohesion between the allies, let alone those which 269 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 3: aren't friendly countries to US. 270 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 5: Well. 271 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: At the same time, the US has said it no 272 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: longer actively is pursuing a two state solution. I know 273 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: we've talked before about what small countries can do when 274 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: they work together, but are those efforts futile if the 275 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: US isn't on board. 276 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: It makes it really hard, and the two state solution 277 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 3: is a difficult scenario. There's so many steps that you've 278 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: got to get involved with it. You've got questioned about 279 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 3: what to do with the refugees, what to do with 280 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 3: the territory, what to do with the governance, and whether 281 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: you've got to exclude or I would argue you must 282 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 3: exclude groups which are terrorist organizations. It's very hard equation 283 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: to solve, but it's the only real viable, long term 284 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 3: option towards what peace may look like in this area. 285 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 3: The alternative of what you've got right now is that 286 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 3: mister Trump has put on the proposal of kind of 287 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 3: like a Rivi era of the Middle East, where he 288 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 3: wants to kind of rebuild and exit those two million 289 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 3: people from Gaza. And it's simply not plausible as an option. 290 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 3: And so you've got to come back to what might work, 291 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 3: even if it's difficult, and that is the two state solution. 292 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: And finally, are we doing enough? 293 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 2: Should we be bolder in trying to get more aid 294 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: into Gaza and pushing for an end to the war. 295 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 3: Born in New Zealand. I think we're doing We're on 296 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 3: the right track to follow the Europeans and the important 297 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 3: part is not to get ahead of the Europeans or 298 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 3: behind the Europeans. And I think mister Peters has positioned 299 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 3: us as a big ginning point quite well. What will 300 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 3: happen from here, though, is that you may see a 301 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 3: reaction from Israel, and that it's while we've sanctioned people before, 302 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: we've never sanctioned government ministers, and so it's possible that 303 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 3: there will be a diplomatic reply, and you might find 304 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 3: that some of our ministers have similt sanctions placed against them, 305 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 3: and so this may yet escalate. And if it does escalate, 306 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: we're going to work out how we. 307 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 2: Reply to that and what about it In the shorter term, 308 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: how do we get that humanitarian aid into Gaza. 309 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 3: We don't control that debate, that we can make our 310 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 3: voice known that you must adhere to a rules based order, 311 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 3: that starvation is a method of warfare, it is prohibited, 312 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 3: and that you want neutral bodies to distribute the aid. 313 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 3: We have to keep saying that, and we have to 314 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 3: be willing to argue that more at the international level 315 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 3: than we currently are, although that is emerging through the UN. 316 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, OU We'll welcome Chelsea. 317 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: That's it. For this episode of the Front Page. You 318 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extend news coverage 319 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 2: at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 320 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 321 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: our sound engineer. 322 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 323 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 324 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 325 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.