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Speaker 1: There are still so many unanswered questions about the sinking

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Speaker 1: of the h m n Z S Mantuanui, still not

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Speaker 1: knowing exactly what happened, although Defense Minister due to Collins

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Speaker 1: is suggesting that a power outage may have caused the

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Speaker 1: ship to run aground. Local authorities and some more are

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Speaker 1: conducting environmental assessments as there is concern now about potential

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Speaker 1: oil or chemical spillage. The Defense Forces only quote acknowledged

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Speaker 1: our request for an interview. We are yet to get

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Speaker 1: a proper response. Massive University Center for Defense and Security Studies.

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Speaker 1: John Battersby is with us this evening.

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Speaker 2: No Kilder, John, Hello, how are you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Very well? Thanks thanks for being with us, even

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Speaker 1: though the Defense Force won't be, which seems remarkable given

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Speaker 1: the circumstances. But how bad does this whole situation make

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Speaker 1: New Zealand?

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Speaker 2: Look, I think I'm a little bit here and there

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Speaker 2: on that one. On one hand, Yet does it doesn't

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Speaker 2: look good at all? Right? We've lost a peace time

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Speaker 2: We've lost a vessel in peace time over a reef

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Speaker 2: which the vessel was supposed to be equipped to to

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Speaker 2: be able to locate and see. And we're two weeks

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Speaker 2: out from Choggham, which I think all three of our

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Speaker 2: services and our police are all going to be supporting.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, look, this is not a good time. It's

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Speaker 2: not a good look. On the other hand, other navies

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Speaker 2: have lost vessels in peace time, they've covered them up

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Speaker 2: and they've looked even wilderness when that's been discovered. So

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Speaker 2: we have got everybody off. Nobody's died yet. There's going

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Speaker 2: to be some environmental damage, but at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day, I think we've probably minimized. The reputational damage

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Speaker 2: is going.

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Speaker 1: To be some of course, yeah, I'm not sure covering

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Speaker 1: it up was really an option given it was on

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Speaker 1: fire on the front page of the Heral, but I

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Speaker 1: get your point. Yeah, yeah, I get your point. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, this's just think about the timing of all this,

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Speaker 1: and I want to say that, you know, the reputational

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Speaker 1: damage is not the absolute primary concern, right, We've avoided

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Speaker 1: loss of life. That's got to be top, top of

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Speaker 1: the top of the list. Then environmental concerns, which I'll

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Speaker 1: get to in a moment. But I mean, you have

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Speaker 1: just had this meeting of defense ministers in New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: We've got Choggam in a couple of weeks, leaders from

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Speaker 1: fifty six countries in some More are potentially going to

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Speaker 1: be looking at this wreck just off the coast. Is

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Speaker 1: this incident indicative of the state of the New Zealand

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Speaker 1: Defense Force, because when you think about the standard of

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Speaker 1: our housing in the Defense Force, combined with the Air

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Speaker 1: Force seven five sevens, it feels like this is becoming

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Speaker 1: a bit of a theme.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think probably. What I would say is that,

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Speaker 2: for as long as I can remember, our defense force

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Speaker 2: does seem to be depleting. I can remember when we

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Speaker 2: had six frigates, so we'd down to four, now down

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Speaker 2: to two. I can remember the Skyhawks, So it does

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Speaker 2: seem like we have under invested in defense. Whether this

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Speaker 2: is a particular thing caused by that, I am not

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Speaker 2: going to be drawn on that. We'll just have to

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Speaker 2: wait and see. But I think given the geostrategic changes

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Speaker 2: that are going on in the Pacific, and you're right,

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Speaker 2: there's now this big conference going on in some More,

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Speaker 2: there are things happening in the specific now that if

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Speaker 2: we want to be a part of those, we want

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Speaker 2: to be able to see what's going on and influence

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Speaker 2: what's going on. We might need to look at how

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Speaker 2: we represent ourselves and the way that our defense force

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Speaker 2: is used in particular for that. So that's probably something

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Speaker 2: we've got to we've got a face up to. And

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure it's specifically because this vessel has sunk.

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Speaker 2: I think this is a general set of objectives that

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Speaker 2: we've got and we've got to make sure we've got

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Speaker 2: enough in the bank.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So what are New Zealand's responsibilities when it comes

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Speaker 1: to trying to mitigate the environmental concerns here?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we've probably got to do the best

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Speaker 2: we can in terms of trying to mitigate this. I

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Speaker 2: mean I think I would see it's not a big vessel,

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Speaker 2: it's not nuclear powered, so yes, there is going to

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Speaker 2: be an amount of environmental damaged caused by this. But look,

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Speaker 2: let's go back to World War Two in the English

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Speaker 2: Channel when the ords of ships going down every week.

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Speaker 2: So environmental damage is something that can be contained. It

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Speaker 2: will pass in time. It's unfortunate, but we're island countries

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Speaker 2: and we rely on ships all the time and the

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Speaker 2: risk of using the sea is every now and again

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Speaker 2: one's going to go down. So yeah, look I don't

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Speaker 2: think I don't want to minimize that. Environmental damage is horrible.

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Speaker 2: We don't like it, but let's just keep it in perspective.

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Speaker 2: This could have been a hell of a lot worse.

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Speaker 1: All right, Thanks John, Always appreciate it. That as John

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Speaker 1: Battersbee from Massive University Center for Defense and Security Studies.

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