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Speaker 1: Kielda.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. A group

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Speaker 2: of concussion researchers have likened run It Straight events to

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Speaker 2: dwarf tossing, where organizers turn real human risk and harm

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Speaker 2: into a spectacle. There are growing calls to ban these events,

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Speaker 2: where two people run head to head at each other

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Speaker 2: before making body jarring contact. These sporting spectacles have gained

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Speaker 2: popularity in recent times, with competitors promised thousands of dollars

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Speaker 2: for winning. The social media driven craze made international headlines

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Speaker 2: earlier this year when nineteen year old Ryan Sattathwaite died

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Speaker 2: after suffering head injuries in an impromptu contest with friends.

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Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page ends at Harald, reporter Neil

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Speaker 2: readers with us to take us through the latest on

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Speaker 2: the world's newest full contact competition. First off, Neil, let's

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Speaker 2: start with an easy one. What is Run It Straight?

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Speaker 1: Run It Straight? Head It's beginnings in America is a

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Speaker 1: practice move used by NFL teams, Basically running backs running

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Speaker 1: into defenders, improving both defensive skills and running skills, trying

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Speaker 1: to bust the tackle from there, and it ended up

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Speaker 1: actually being banned in America by the NFL basically for

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Speaker 1: safety concerns, and in the meantime it's become sort of

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Speaker 1: somewhat of a social media sensation on both sides of

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Speaker 1: the Tasman. The version of running straight that we have

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Speaker 1: in New Zealand and Australia is two people running for

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Speaker 1: about thirty meters away from each other. One person's got

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Speaker 1: a ball. The other person's job is to either smash

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Speaker 1: that the ball carrier as hard as they can.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't even aware that there was a ball involved.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen some of these videos. They're pretty

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Speaker 2: terrifying and people end up convulsing on the floor in

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Speaker 2: some instances.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, during some of the organized events and Allkland earlier

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Speaker 1: this year that the hero went with a reporter and

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Speaker 1: a videographer and there were a couple of people that

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Speaker 1: were not cold. There was another person that was lying

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Speaker 1: on the ground convulsing. So that's quite a telltale sign

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Speaker 1: of a concussion impact, exceptely not for the faint heart.

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Speaker 1: And I think part of the issue with the health

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Speaker 1: bodies that have called for it to be banned is

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Speaker 1: it's okay for some of these big hits to be

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Speaker 1: had on a rugby field or a rugby league field,

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Speaker 1: but these are actually athletes that are trained to handle

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Speaker 1: those hits as safely as possible in the background as well,

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Speaker 1: both rugby and leap. In our part of the world

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Speaker 1: that the laws have changed where you know, you can't

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Speaker 1: hit someone above the shoulder line and people can still

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Speaker 1: get cancuss not just being in the head, but she

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Speaker 1: tackled around the chest or the shoulders. Concussions caused by

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Speaker 1: the size of impact, not necessarily where the impacts made.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about this research paper.

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Speaker 1: Yes, there's a group called the Repercussion Group. They're made

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Speaker 1: up of academics, concussion experts, concussion researchers and also people

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Speaker 1: who are living with the impacts of concussion. So among

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Speaker 1: this group there's quite a strong New Zealand presences. Petry

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Speaker 1: Hume and Alistairedom. They're both from the Auckland University of Technology,

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Speaker 1: professors and very skilled in the area. Doug King, who

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Speaker 1: is a very qualified nurse who's made a real passion

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Speaker 1: himself of research and concussion and trying to find answers

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Speaker 1: to concussion and thempacts to it. And also one lady

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Speaker 1: who's got to be coming from it from a different strand,

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Speaker 1: Irene Gottlieb. Her husband is Jeff Old. It used to

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Speaker 1: be in All Black Blues Forward of the late seventies

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Speaker 1: and early eighties a month or two. Legendo for the

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Speaker 1: past probably ten years has been living with early onset

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Speaker 1: dementia conditions. It's quite quite a sad story what's happened

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Speaker 1: to Jeff. So amongst that four is also experts from

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Speaker 1: the UK, from Australia and America, and they've been looking

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Speaker 1: over the last few years and ways to make sports safer,

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Speaker 1: waves to highlight the life changing impacts that concussion and

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Speaker 1: evil people.

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Speaker 2: And they reference dwarf tossing. What do you think the

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Speaker 2: significance is of that comparison? What message are they trying

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Speaker 2: to send when they compare it to such a derogatory sport?

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Speaker 2: Inverted comments, because when was that a thing?

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Speaker 1: Dwarf tossing, jeez, would have been the eighties, eighties and nineties.

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Speaker 3: Year.

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Speaker 1: Since they're probably the nineties, it's been very unpopular. I

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Speaker 1: mean there used to be in New Zealand sort of

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Speaker 1: organized dwarf tossing events at bars around the country. It

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Speaker 1: was sort of how it was it happened. In the

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Speaker 1: white paper that the Repercussion Group have published on run It,

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Speaker 1: they've described it as well, likened it to dwarf tossing

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Speaker 1: in the sense we organizers and their views turn real

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Speaker 1: human risk and harm into a spectacle. It's a pretty

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Speaker 1: hard hitting paper that put out, and I think they've

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Speaker 1: used that term ready to make a bit of a

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Speaker 1: stand saying look, you know, for a while, amongst some

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Speaker 1: people who went to a pub, they found dwarf tossing entertaining,

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Speaker 1: similar with running straight. Some people find it entertaining, other

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Speaker 1: people find it horrent, and they probably used the most

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Speaker 1: emotional language that they can think of to get their

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Speaker 1: point across.

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Speaker 2: The researchers liken the collisions in these events to car

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Speaker 2: crashes without a seatbelt. What does that mean in terms

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Speaker 2: of that brain injury risk.

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Speaker 1: In terms of the collision size. I think that's what

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Speaker 1: they say. It's been sort of long talked about, probably

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Speaker 1: the last maybe ten years, just talking about an impact

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Speaker 1: on a rugby league fields from guys that are actually

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Speaker 1: trained to take their bodies, a conditioned to take the headers.

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Speaker 1: It is like a thirty kilometer and out crash. I

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Speaker 1: think the rests are even more with running straight because

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Speaker 1: a lot of the people that are involved, they're not

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Speaker 1: professional sports people. They don't work out in the gym

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Speaker 1: eight and nine months a year to be conditioned to

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Speaker 1: take these hits. So when you've got two guys that

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Speaker 1: are all ladies, that are fairly well built running at

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Speaker 1: each other full tilt, there's no rules on where you

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Speaker 1: in rugby or league, you can't hit from above the shoulder.

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Speaker 1: It's the shoulders to the jaw. Yes, several Jesus of

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Speaker 1: force that are involved in the impact. So yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: pretty scary to think, you know, it's the equivalent head

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Speaker 1: or crash. Without a safety belt. The rest of your

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Speaker 1: body stops moving, but at the same time, your brain's

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Speaker 1: still moving in your head. Something's going to have to give.

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Speaker 2: What is the incentive of signing yourself up to one

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Speaker 2: of these events?

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Speaker 1: In New Zealand Australia this year with some of the

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Speaker 1: organizing organized events, there was a surprise of twenty k

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Speaker 1: which is quite interesting that the Ziller actually won the

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Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars and went off to a World championship

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Speaker 1: in the Middle East. He actually apologized for being involved

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Speaker 1: in the sense that he could actually did portray a

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Speaker 1: bit of a bad look for people's safety.

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Speaker 3: You heard about that one story about that kidding, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's pretty rough. Like I feel sorry for the families

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Speaker 3: that is enjoying their pain from something that's been something

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Speaker 3: that was safe, but like, yeah, that caused harm to somebody,

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Speaker 3: that's not what it's all about. It that's all about

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Speaker 3: just making sure that everyone's all safe, making sure that

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Speaker 3: they're all well trained. But I also know what they're

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Speaker 3: doing because that that helped me way more than anything else,

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Speaker 3: because Madam like losing your life. That helped me so

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Speaker 3: much because I was like, he could have been something great.

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Speaker 1: So he's obviously twenty grand. There was several other events

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Speaker 1: and Auckland that we was supposed to be held that

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Speaker 1: were canceled due to the backlash, and counsel then pulled

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Speaker 1: out of allowing the organizers to use see venues in

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Speaker 1: the Middle East. There was a competition where two hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty thousand dollars was up for grabs and you

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Speaker 1: know it's for a lot of people that's life changing.

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Speaker 1: That is incredible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a quarter of a million.

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Speaker 1: Dollars back yourself to put a big hits on it.

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Speaker 1: That's the money that's hard to turn down the score.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think these events are so popular from

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Speaker 2: a spectator's standpoint? Is it kind of like driving past

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Speaker 2: a car crash scenario that old that old chestnut.

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Speaker 1: I think definitely. I think that then they kind of

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Speaker 1: stuck out with Runner when it exploded in such a

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Speaker 1: sensational fashion earlier in New Zealand. It's it's very much

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Speaker 1: I liking it to motor racing and speedway. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of people that might not be huge petrol heads

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Speaker 1: or like watching the cars go around the track, but

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that go to speedway and

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Speaker 1: motor sport in particular to watch the crashes. There'll be

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Speaker 1: people that go to football or rugby league that go

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Speaker 1: there to see the big hits. And I think those

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Speaker 1: big hits that used to see in the eighties and nineties,

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Speaker 1: especially in stat of Origin where you know it was

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Speaker 1: as she glorified someone smashing someone into smotherings, I mean

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Speaker 1: that those big hits are kind of vanished from the

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Speaker 1: game because the game has been made to be a

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Speaker 1: bit safer, where if you hit someone too high it's

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Speaker 1: at your legal now. So there's definitely an audience out

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Speaker 1: there that love love big, physical confrontation, love someone coming

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Speaker 1: off second best.

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Speaker 2: This is the heart love of the hits.

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Speaker 1: So the part is persons where we're very helpy.

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Speaker 2: What role do you think masculinity or the societal perceptions

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Speaker 2: of being a big, tough guy play into it.

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Speaker 1: I think huge Chelsea, yeah, and rugby league. It's not

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Speaker 1: just the professional level, but if you go into a

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Speaker 1: too addressing rooms at are even a club level, which

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Speaker 1: you've done many a year. I mean there are some

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Speaker 1: people that are really fire up seeing opponents and they

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Speaker 1: want to built them and smash them with run it

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Speaker 1: Straight to It's not just the organized events. If you

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Speaker 1: look on social media of people doing it in the

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Speaker 1: backyard and unfortunately where the tragedy and he's where someone

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Speaker 1: died doing run in the backyard. But you know these

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Speaker 1: videos of mates standing over other mates after the politics

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Speaker 1: and I think masculinity and being the tough guy that

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Speaker 1: that definitely plays a part.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, So there's a call to ban these It Straight

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Speaker 2: events in New Zealand. Do you think the government has

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Speaker 2: to actually intervene at some point for that to happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, most definitely. Obviously the Repercussion Group doesn't want this

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Speaker 1: event in New Zealand, it doesn't want this event anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Auckland Council were very proactively this year where they withheld

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Speaker 1: access to their venues where running Straight events were meant

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Speaker 1: to happen on These events are offering a lot of

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Speaker 1: cash for the winner. The only way that it can

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Speaker 1: be been formally is for the government to step in.

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Speaker 1: That's what the Repercussion Group's calling for, so that no

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Speaker 1: doubt would come down to the Minister of Sport or

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Speaker 1: the Minister of Health making a ruling. We're get to

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Speaker 1: hear from Mark Mature's the Minister of Sport on it.

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Speaker 1: He's previously been briefed as a government has been briefed

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Speaker 1: on Runner, especially after the tragedy where palmerslor team lost

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Speaker 1: his life.

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Speaker 2: I mean, thinking of other ways to try and stop

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Speaker 2: this in its track. You've got to think about social

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Speaker 2: media platforms. Right, this is where we're seeing all of

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Speaker 2: the videos, and this is where you're seeing all the

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Speaker 2: traction for these events. Could we do something like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, getting tech companies to stop monetizing these videos.

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Speaker 2: But then again, I'm thinking, well, how likely is that

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Speaker 2: going to happen? Because eyeballs mean money for these tech companies.

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Speaker 1: The repercussion grows really hot on social media companies demonetizing

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Speaker 1: that content. There's probably a lot of people who were

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Speaker 1: back there, but yeah, social media. Everyone knows that social

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Speaker 1: media makes a lot of money out of advertising. Everyone

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Speaker 1: in the media knows that. And you just can't see

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Speaker 1: the likes of Facebook or Twitter or TikTok Instagram demonetizing that.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, countless. What's the casion that they're making

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Speaker 1: from videos such like.

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Speaker 2: In terms of the events themselves and people who sign

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Speaker 2: themselves up to this kind of thing. I immediately thought, well,

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Speaker 2: what's the difference between a run at straight event and

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Speaker 2: if we were to say, have that Warrior show. You

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Speaker 2: remember that show in the eighties nineties where normal people

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Speaker 2: would go on to this show and like hand gladiators gladiators.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, what's the difference.

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Speaker 2: Between I suppose those people were quite.

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Speaker 1: Athletic gladia gladaders is probably nearly take on it, but

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Speaker 1: there wasn't really I think gladiators, you know that you

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Speaker 1: had helmets yet padding every shoulder, pads and pads arm pads,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think the hats were as brutal, whereas

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Speaker 1: with this you've got you know, people sort of running

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Speaker 1: twenty three meters full board each other. The objects not

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Speaker 1: to take someone down, it's to well around the ankles.

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Speaker 1: The object just to take someone down and knock them

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Speaker 1: down set involves you know, nine times out of ten,

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Speaker 1: the shoulder to the jaw or some sort of head blow.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people sign up for it and if they

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Speaker 1: get injured, unfortunately, that's on them. I think they could

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Speaker 1: well open up a bit of a legal mindfield down

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Speaker 1: the track about you know, whether someone's eligible for acc

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Speaker 1: if they're involved in run it. Especially if run it's

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Speaker 1: bann it's probably definitely a case of buyer beware.

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Speaker 2: Can we ban a sport well, I mean.

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Speaker 1: That's where it's going to have to come from, either

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Speaker 1: the Ministry Health or the Minister of Sport. It'd be

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're probably talking about big money too, that

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Speaker 1: that the organizers have running a straight They're not running

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Speaker 1: a charity, they're running a highly well it seems like

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Speaker 1: a fairly professional sporting league. You're talking about, you know,

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Speaker 1: big events in this in the Middle East where winners

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Speaker 1: from New Zelanic and government or potentially two hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars. I think if the government did sort

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Speaker 1: of move towards banning that event, there'd be some some

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Speaker 1: lawyers that will probably line up to try and take

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Speaker 1: on an appeal.

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Speaker 2: And lastly, I know the researchers talk about us having

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Speaker 2: an ethical duty, what do you think about that? Weigh

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Speaker 2: up with, well, people know what they're getting them elves into.

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Speaker 2: At what point do we intervene?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's a good argument, but if you

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Speaker 1: talk to more Jeff Old's wife, you know he was

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Speaker 1: not even sixty when he started showing early onset dementia

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Speaker 1: conditions from head blows in the nineteen eighties. You talk

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Speaker 1: to these researchers that are especially from the Orkan UniverCity

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Speaker 1: of Technology, that are already talking to players who are

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Speaker 1: in their late thirties early forties from rugby where thats

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Speaker 1: weren't as hard as what you see in this run

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Speaker 1: it and these guys are already showing early onset dementia

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Speaker 1: conditions potential CTE, various of called dilemmeras are in the

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Speaker 1: front line. They're dealing with people that are getting injured

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Speaker 1: in a boat of fire, traditional sporting environment that they

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Speaker 1: just don't want to stand by and watch more people.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just professional it's not professional athletes, it's

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Speaker 1: you know, Joe blogs on the street having potentially life

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Speaker 1: changing conditions while they chase twenty thousand dollars in the competition.

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Speaker 1: I totally keep where US group's coming from.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Neil see ChEls. That's it for

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Speaker 2: this episode of the Front Page. You can read more

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Speaker 2: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzdherld dot

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Speaker 2: co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Jane

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Speaker 2: Yee and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm

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Speaker 2: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or

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Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for

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Speaker 2: another look behind the headlines.