1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,160
Speaker 1: So new data around one of the great political mephiscal

2
00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:05,080
Speaker 1: scams of the last Labor government. Remember fees free next

3
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:06,880
Speaker 1: years on me and all that well know and turned

4
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,399
Speaker 1: up and certainly not the so called disadvantage that Labour

5
00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,799
Speaker 1: claimed the policy would help. Just two hundred and thirty

6
00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,239
Speaker 1: students nationwide from the most disadvantaged schools were using at

7
00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,040
Speaker 1: seventy percent actually come from above average socioeconomic backgrounds. Ministry

8
00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,319
Speaker 1: of Education also says now analysis suggests fees are not

9
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,880
Speaker 1: a significant barrier to participation. Chris Wheeler, chief executive of

10
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,200
Speaker 1: University's New Zealand, back with us. Chris, good morning, Good morning.

11
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,480
Speaker 1: So is this a little bit of thee re versus reality?

12
00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:40,200
Speaker 2: Look? Absolutely, the fees free initiative was of course a

13
00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,200
Speaker 2: manifesto promise of Labor heading into the twenty seventeen election.

14
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,640
Speaker 2: You know, in their absolute hearts they believed it really

15
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 2: was going to make a difference at making university more accessible.

16
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,640
Speaker 2: The reality was we saw almost no increase, less than

17
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,160
Speaker 2: half one percent when the scheme was first introduced in

18
00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. In saying that it's been incredibly popular with students.

19
00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,360
Speaker 2: One year less of debt loans effectively when they graduate,

20
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,760
Speaker 2: and continues to be popular because it just means that

21
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,280
Speaker 2: a little bit less of a life burden on these

22
00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:15,720
Speaker 2: students as they enter the workforce.

23
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,119
Speaker 1: It's amazing what free money can do for you. Even

24
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,160
Speaker 1: at the time, part of the argument many of us argued,

25
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 1: if you're going to do it, why not reward the

26
00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,759
Speaker 1: last year instead of giving it up for the first year.

27
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,679
Speaker 1: Did that make sense or any sense at all?

28
00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that's of course where it's gone. So we're

29
00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:36,200
Speaker 2: now in final year fees free, and you know, again

30
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,200
Speaker 2: we haven't seen any particular change in the pattern of

31
00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,840
Speaker 2: behavior of students, but yes, it does seem a lot

32
00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,039
Speaker 2: more rational doing it the way it's evolved.

33
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 1: This data we get from the ministry that suggests fees

34
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,760
Speaker 1: are not a barrier? Is that sound thinking? Can you

35
00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,280
Speaker 1: back that up or you suggest it's true.

36
00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,360
Speaker 2: I think it's a bit more complicated than that. We

37
00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 2: have a good loans and allowances scheme to make you know,

38
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,920
Speaker 2: basically means that money shouldn't be a barrier to most students.

39
00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,320
Speaker 2: In saying that, over time, certainly over the last decade,

40
00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,760
Speaker 2: it's become a little bit harder to access loans and allowances,

41
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,440
Speaker 2: so fewer students are actually able to borrow, which is

42
00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,960
Speaker 2: putting a bit more pressure on them. And of course

43
00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:25,000
Speaker 2: we are well below the OECD average for postgraduate qualifications,

44
00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,760
Speaker 2: and that's mainly because the ability to get allowances finishes

45
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,320
Speaker 2: after five years and doesn't continue into masters or doctoral studies.

46
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 2: So you know, we have a good loan scheme for

47
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,920
Speaker 2: people doing undergraduate type qualifications, but it gets a bit

48
00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:40,720
Speaker 2: harder later.

49
00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,240
Speaker 1: On international students. While I've got you reading over the weekend,

50
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,920
Speaker 1: in Australia, you can pay eight hundred thousand dollars for

51
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,760
Speaker 1: a course of your international student. There's a bunch of courses,

52
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 1: high end courses at high end universities, at over half

53
00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 1: a million dollars and they're paying it. Are we similar

54
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,680
Speaker 1: any We're close to being similar? How are they getting

55
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:58,040
Speaker 1: away with that?

56
00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:00,920
Speaker 2: Look, I'm not a w of anything like that in

57
00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,760
Speaker 2: New Zealand. You know, it might well be that there

58
00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,919
Speaker 2: are some programs, you know, I know there are subjects

59
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,800
Speaker 2: like aviation which are extraordinarily expensive to be able to complete.

60
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,239
Speaker 2: I'm not aware of anything like that here, but there

61
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,440
Speaker 2: are some programs for which you know, there are people

62
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,519
Speaker 2: that will pay because price is not a problem.

63
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,280
Speaker 1: Interesting, all right, Chris, appreciate it. Chris William, Chief Executive

64
00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 1: of Universities New Zealand.

65
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,000
Speaker 2: For more from the My Asking Breakfast listen live to

66
00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,200
Speaker 2: news talks. It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow

67
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:31,800
Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio