1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Now Air New Zealand has done away with climate targets, 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: but has instead replaced it with its first emissions guidance. Now, 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: the airline wants to reduce net green house gas emissions 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: from jet fuel by twenty to twenty five percent. And 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: you'll remember last year Airline abandoned its carbon targets at 6 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: the time, blaming it on a shortage of new aircraft 7 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: availability and also the high price of sustainable jet fuels. 8 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: Kitty Hannafan is Air New Zealand's chief sustainability and corporate 9 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: affairs officer and with us now, Hey Candy, hello, how 10 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: are you well? Thank you? What's the difference between targets 11 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: and guidance? 12 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 2: So a target is a static goal, and what we're 13 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 2: doing is because we couldn't achieve the target we set 14 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 2: and had to put out of it last year, we 15 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 2: wanted to have something back in the market that we 16 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 2: could be very. 17 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 3: Transparent and honest about how we were going. 18 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 2: So what we're doing is saying what we expect to 19 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: do by twenty thirty, but we'll update everybody every year 20 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: to sort of give a realistic appraisal of how we're tracking. 21 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: You know, given what's happening in the world or you know, 22 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: in the markets, or HARSAF scaling up. 23 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 3: So it's just a different, more transparent approach. 24 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: Okay, And so how do you expect to do it? 25 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: I mean, how much are you going to have to 26 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: rely on sustainable fuel, which, as you guys have said, 27 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: is so expensive a lot. 28 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 2: It's the main way that airlines will decarbonize, I think, 29 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: and it's probably quite timely from some of the discussions 30 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: that have been heaven that are having been head at 31 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: the moment around the world. We're going to have a 32 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 2: bit you know, we're going to have some residual emissions 33 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 2: left and we'll have to. 34 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 3: Use carbon removals as well. 35 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 2: We know that, but by by far the greatest lever 36 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 2: that we have is the use of sustainable aviation fuel. 37 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: Is it going to push up the price of the 38 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: air tickets? 39 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 3: It's a really good question at the moment. 40 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: It's not because we're using such a small quantity, but 41 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: it is expensive and we've got a really significant piece 42 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: of work underway now to work out how we can 43 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: bring the cost down. And there's a few ways we 44 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: can do that. We can sort of enter long term 45 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: off take agreements, which are much more affordable. We can 46 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: buy it from markets that are subsidized like the US, 47 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: and we can and we can obviously help with supply. 48 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: So why it's so expensive at the moment is because 49 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: there's hardly any available. So the more demand there is, 50 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: the more supply they will be available and that will 51 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 2: help get the price down. 52 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: So how much do you think, like, what does it 53 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: add to the price of a ticket. 54 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 3: At the moment? Nothing? 55 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: And in the long term once you're actually buying it 56 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: and really. 57 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: Fine, we don't know, like, you know, rough of the 58 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: you know, we see the back of the envelope, you know, 59 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 2: maybe a few dollars for you know, for a ticket domestically, 60 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: but that's not how we do it. Would probably look 61 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: to sort of to make it fair. So obviously international 62 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: travels much more emission heavy than domestic travel. We want 63 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: to look after the price of traveling in New Zealand. 64 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: We're going to try and sell a lot of the 65 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: scope three parts of the SAF to third parties to 66 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: businesses who want to reduce their own emissions. So big 67 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: organizations like Microsoft and Apple are buying parts of Airline 68 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: Safe to reduce their own emissions. So that's what we 69 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: want to do to see if we can commercialize it 70 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: to take the burden off our own flyers. 71 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: Now I want your take on something. I have been 72 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: watching what's going on with the Paris Agreement right and 73 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: I just want to Chloe Swarbrick about it about just 74 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: over half an hour ago, and she could tell me 75 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: that she believed the Paris Agreement will hold. Do you 76 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: think it will hold? 77 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that's such a good question. Look, it's not 78 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: a question I can't really answer. It's an agreement that 79 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 2: government's entered and I guess centered on the back of 80 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 2: what they thought was, you know, excellent advice from hundreds 81 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 2: of scientists. You know, I guess it's the world's global 82 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: climate framework, and that's really important. 83 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 3: There was near. 84 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: Agreement to join it from governments, and there's actually some 85 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: really good progress being made with technology. And ironically, I 86 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: guess you're referring to what Tony Blairsbean saying the UK 87 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: have been doing probably one of the best out of 88 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: all the countries in the world. I think it's really 89 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: important that governments and businesses like ours commit to decarbonizing, 90 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 2: and our own twenty to fifty goal is not part 91 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: of the Paris Agreement obviously because we're not a government, 92 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: but we do have our own twenty to fifty net 93 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: net zero emissions go and we know we're very determined 94 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: and committed to getting there. 95 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: So tell me what I mean, because you must have 96 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: thought about this, or because I know you care about 97 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: this deepening a lot. What happens, kitty? What happens the 98 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: US pulls out, right, they've already done it, And then 99 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: what happens if the UK abandons it? And bit by 100 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: bit all these larger countries start to fall out of 101 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: the Paris Agreement or realize it's completely it's overly ambitious, 102 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: they can't meet the targets. Smaller countries like ours realize 103 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: we are also then going to be left doing way 104 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: more than our fair share, so we abandon it. Where 105 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: does it leave? Are you still there? 106 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 3: Yeah? I'm here? 107 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: Oh sorry, we just had a little beep there and 108 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: I thought she's bailed out before answering this hard question? 109 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 3: But where does it gofit? Through? 110 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 2: Hard? 111 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: Where does it leave an airline? Right, if all these 112 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: countries have bailed out, where doesn't he leave an airline 113 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: sitting there pushing up its own prices, trying to do 114 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: the right thing, but abandoned by all the countries. 115 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: It's a really good question, and I guess, you know, 116 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: the most positive thing I can say is that a 117 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 2: New Zealand is not alone in our ambition, Like we 118 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 2: are part of every global airline wanting. 119 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 3: To do this work. So this is a global action 120 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 3: from aviation. 121 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 2: It's not just a New Zealand out on a limb, 122 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: but generally, like pulling away from climate action a country 123 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 2: by country would be a death by a thousand. 124 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 3: Cuts, and. 125 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: That would be regrettable for everybody, not just aviation but 126 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 2: for all industry. And I guess it will come down 127 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: to decisions between the cost of action versus the cost 128 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 2: of inaction, because what I can tell you is that 129 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: doing nothing and having to navigate adaptation or response to 130 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 2: climate damage will be incredibly costly as well. So I think, 131 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 2: you know, and we are trying to be more realistic. 132 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: You know, we couldn't do what we committed to last year, 133 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 2: and so this is us trying to be much more 134 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: honest and pragmatic and realistic about what we can do. 135 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: But it's still ambitious, and it's still going to stretch us, 136 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: and we're going to do everything we can to push 137 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:01,559 Speaker 2: ourselves harder. 138 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 3: But because I think yes, of course. 139 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you guys are are part of the 140 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: problem in the sense like from your perspective, right, So 141 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: you are just doing as a corporate what all these 142 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: countries are going to do, look at the ambition, realize 143 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: it's impossible, and pull back, and therefore the climate just 144 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: keeps getting hotter. 145 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: Well, we're still we are going to our emissions by 146 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: twenty thirty, so we are taking absolute or gross emissions 147 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: out of our business, and that's what. 148 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: We have to do. 149 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 2: We are take you know, we are using less stiel, 150 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 2: We're going to be burning less carbon and we're you know, 151 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 2: we are tracking the right way, and that's what we 152 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: all have to do. So it's possible we couldn't. We couldn't, 153 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 2: you know, because of things are outside of our control. 154 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: And don't mean to make excuses like around fleet or 155 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: SAFF We couldn't get to the level that we thought 156 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 2: we might be able to. 157 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 3: But we're still We're still going. 158 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 2: Really hard, and we're still going to make a difference, 159 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: and you know, it all counts. 160 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 3: Every you know, every. 161 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 2: Dicimal point of carbon savings makes a difference, and I 162 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: think that's worth fighting for. 163 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: Hey, Kitty, thank you. I really appreciate having chat to 164 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: you about its. Kitty Hanafan, Chief Sustainability and corporate affairs 165 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: officer at in New Zealand. Heather, the Ponzi scheme of 166 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: carbon is over, do you know what. The more that 167 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: I watch what's happening right now, the more I talk 168 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: to people like Kitty Hanaffan, Chloe Swarbrick, people who actually 169 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: deeply committed to trying to save the planet, the more 170 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: convinced I am this thing is over. The Paris Agreement 171 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: is going to fall over. And the closer we get 172 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: to twenty thirty, that's our first target we have to meet. 173 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: The closer we get to that, we will start to 174 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: realize at that point. The closer we get, the more 175 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: we will realize that we cannot meet these targets and 176 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: we're going to fall away from them. I'm happy to 177 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: make that prediction now, and I'm sure that there will 178 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: just be mounting evidence as we get closer to it. 179 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: For more from Heather Duplessy, Allen Drive, listen live to 180 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 181 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio