Speaker 1: Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page.
Speaker 1: We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap,
Speaker 1: we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back
Speaker 1: with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Just a
Speaker 1: quick note, this interview with Mark Mitchell was recorded prior
Speaker 1: to the Tongedito fire. Kyota, I'm Chelsea Daniels and this
Speaker 1: is The Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the
Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. Mark Mitchell has heralded the government's promise
Speaker 1: to be tough on crime. He's been incredibly clear from
Speaker 1: the get go that his primary goal is to make
Speaker 1: New Zealand an uncomfortable place for gangs to operate. He
Speaker 1: holds five portfolios, Police correct Actions, Emergency Management and Recovery,
Speaker 1: Ethnic communities, and Sports and Recreation. So how does an
Speaker 1: MP with so many hats feel about how his government
Speaker 1: has tackled the big issues? Today on the Front Page,
Speaker 1: Mitchell joins us to talk cops, corrections and communities. So,
Speaker 1: first off, Mark, you're very looking, very comfortable whereabouts are you?
Speaker 2: I'm a marrying you Bay Beach, Marrying.
Speaker 3: You Bay Beach and whereabouts? Just right on the beach there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sitting right on the beach and this is
Speaker 2: the beach that this is the when I was a kid.
Speaker 2: This is where I grew up in that surf plub.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you can see the surf club. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that was my surf club. So it's not actually my
Speaker 2: electric because I ran at a time. I was trying
Speaker 2: to get back up to my pitch, but I ran
Speaker 2: out of time, so I thought I'll go and sit
Speaker 2: down of Marrying You Bay Beach and do the podcast
Speaker 2: and Chelsea down there.
Speaker 1: So Mark, we've seen a skin this year at the
Speaker 1: top of the police chain.
Speaker 3: There's no denying that.
Speaker 1: Are you confident the public still has trust in the
Speaker 1: New Zealand Police.
Speaker 2: Well, I hope that they do maintain trusted in New
Speaker 2: Zealand Police because without a doubt we have got a
Speaker 2: world class police force and the size of the organization
Speaker 2: that we have, there's always going to be the odd
Speaker 2: rotten apple in the barrel. And look how police officers
Speaker 2: are out there every day, you know, with teens of
Speaker 2: thousands of pocket of actions protecting and supporting their communities,
Speaker 2: the commutes that they serve. And I'd just like to
Speaker 2: say Chelsea that this week I've been to two police
Speaker 2: awards ceremonies and probably seventy five percent of the awards
Speaker 2: that I see handed out to police officers that have
Speaker 2: put themselves in danger saved the lives of members of
Speaker 2: the public. When you see bad behavior from a police officer,
Speaker 2: there's no one feels it more deeply than those thousands
Speaker 2: of both our sworn and non sworn staff that are
Speaker 2: out there she holding to and the values and ideals
Speaker 2: of our New Zealand police. None feels are more deeply
Speaker 2: than them when there's someone that doesn't hold to those values.
Speaker 1: Is it concerning to you, though, that that rotten if
Speaker 1: we're talking about rotten apples, that one of the rotten
Speaker 1: apples nearly got the top police job ally was in
Speaker 1: contention for the top police job in this country.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's of course, that's a genuine concern, and I
Speaker 2: acknowledge that. All I'd say is that as the incoming
Speaker 2: Police Minister, there were quite a few issues that I
Speaker 2: had to view with and one of them was this
Speaker 2: case and I'm sorry that I can't talk to the
Speaker 2: detail on a Chelsea, but it's actually the case although
Speaker 2: there has been a guilty plea put in that's still
Speaker 2: before the courts for seniencings. Though I can't talk to
Speaker 2: the case directly.
Speaker 3: That's a good one. We'll move on to crime statistics.
Speaker 1: They show a sharp drop in alcohol related violent crime
Speaker 1: since June twenty twenty four to May this year. The
Speaker 1: fallen alcohol involved offending accounted for actually sixty five percent
Speaker 1: of the total drop in violent offending. Should the government
Speaker 1: do more to curb alcohol related crime?
Speaker 3: Do you think?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that. You know, alcohol and drugs have
Speaker 2: always been a huge degravating factor in terms of the
Speaker 2: perpetration of violent crime. Education has to continue to be
Speaker 2: a big part of that. You know. The police are
Speaker 2: obviously run very effective road safety programs to make our
Speaker 2: roads safe. You know, we've driven down the rates of
Speaker 2: drunk driving significantly. And there's always differently, there's different things
Speaker 2: that police are looking at doing and providing device Who's
Speaker 2: justice officials in terms of how we can continue to
Speaker 2: make change. Is that balance up people's right, the responsible
Speaker 2: drinkers to have access to alcohol and be able to
Speaker 2: enjoy that responsibly against the ones that aren't responsible and
Speaker 2: public safety.
Speaker 1: New Zealand's prison population where is hitting record highs?
Speaker 3: Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Speaker 2: Look, I think any society would agree that we don't
Speaker 2: want that. We'd love to not have prisons, and we'd
Speaker 2: love to have everyone that lives in our societies and
Speaker 2: our communities respect one another and not hurt or perpetrate
Speaker 2: violent crime against the people in society that are lawabiding.
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, as long as humans have been roaming this earth,
Speaker 2: that hasn't been the case. And so we've been very
Speaker 2: clear as the end up in government that we are
Speaker 2: prioritizing public safety that if we have people in our society,
Speaker 2: in our communities that don't want to stick to the laws,
Speaker 2: they want to hurt people, then you know they are
Speaker 2: going to end up and they keep assisted in that
Speaker 2: sort of behavior, then they are going to end up
Speaker 2: in prison. And our correction is still things because we
Speaker 2: want law of bodies to feel safe.
Speaker 1: Does it mean the government's stance on being tough on
Speaker 1: crime is actually working.
Speaker 2: Well, it's working in the sense that the targets that
Speaker 2: we sent into a rejuction and victimizations. We've already met that,
Speaker 2: in fact exceeded that. And of course you'd have to
Speaker 2: look at our response as a government, which includes increased
Speaker 2: We've made sentencing much toper. We have reduced the discounts
Speaker 2: that were allowed from you know, you've seen discounts of
Speaker 2: seventy eighty percent. We get that at forty percent. And
Speaker 2: like I said, we've just as an incoming government, we
Speaker 2: have and as the three parties as a coalition, as
Speaker 2: a coalition government, have been very clear that we are
Speaker 2: prioritizing public safety.
Speaker 3: What if it's working too well.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've already hit the population estimates within about
Speaker 1: ten nine hundred behind bars. Will there be more money
Speaker 1: in the kiddy next year to address how many people
Speaker 1: are actually going to prison?
Speaker 2: Yes, so as of yesterday it is about ten eight
Speaker 2: hundred in the prison muster and directions to an outstanding
Speaker 2: job that is literally a daily event. And to make
Speaker 2: sure that you know that we're that everyone is in
Speaker 2: the right place and that we're dealing with capacity and riches,
Speaker 2: doing outstanding job of that. Will the government continue to
Speaker 2: invest into public safety? Absolutely, because although there is a cost,
Speaker 2: of course in incarcerating people and having them in the
Speaker 2: correction system. There is a much greater human cost and
Speaker 2: even economic costs to have them out in society, creating
Speaker 2: with victims and the have it that they create, and
Speaker 2: the trail of tears that are often sitting behind that
Speaker 2: behavior and that from offending.
Speaker 1: Well, critics argue that prioritizing longer sentences I see does
Speaker 1: not actually reduce reoffending rates.
Speaker 3: How would you respond to.
Speaker 2: That, Well, the only way you're going to reduce reoffending
Speaker 2: rates is when those offenders genuinely want to change. They
Speaker 2: genuinely want to embrace making good decisions. They genuinely want
Speaker 2: to embrace and see what opportunity just apport for them
Speaker 2: in this country. They genuinely want to embrace the training
Speaker 2: that is offered and the support that's offered them to
Speaker 2: come back and reintegrate with society in a positive way. Ultimately,
Speaker 2: that is how your drive changes, each individual wanting to
Speaker 2: make those changes in their lives and not wanting to
Speaker 2: make bad decisions and make all the excuses for those
Speaker 2: bad decisions. All that we can do is a country
Speaker 2: in the state is provide them with the mechanism to
Speaker 2: be able to do that. And I know that we've
Speaker 2: got a big focus. In fact, we put seventy million
Speaker 2: dollars additional money into rehabilitation programs in our correction services
Speaker 2: so that we give them the ability of the best
Speaker 2: fighting charts and when they do come out, they do
Speaker 2: make good decisions. But ultimately, Chelsea, it comes to under
Speaker 2: personal responsibility. It comes down to each one of those
Speaker 2: individuals wanting to make change and until they do, until
Speaker 2: they actually want to make change. In my view and
Speaker 2: my opinion and my experience, you can throw all the goodwill,
Speaker 2: all the programs and all the investment you want at
Speaker 2: those people. They will not change until they want to.
Speaker 4: As I said before, gangs are not nice people. Minister
Speaker 4: man Sure, Minister Goldsmith and I campaign on cracking down
Speaker 4: on gangs and making their life as uncomfortable as possible,
Speaker 4: and that is exactly why we have passed the laws.
Speaker 4: We have to ban all gang patches and insignia in
Speaker 4: public places to empower the police to stop criminal gangs
Speaker 4: from associating and communicating with each other, enabling the courts
Speaker 4: to issue non consulting orders to gang members, and we're
Speaker 4: ensuring that greater weight as given to gang membership at
Speaker 4: sentencing as well, enabling the courts to enact even more
Speaker 4: severe punishments.
Speaker 1: I remember when you first became police minister, you actually
Speaker 1: offered up you know, you were offering up people your
Speaker 1: personal phone number to see you know, if you do
Speaker 1: want to say, leave a gang, I will personally help you.
Speaker 1: Has anyone taken you up on that offer?
Speaker 2: No, I haven't had any. Yes, you're right that I
Speaker 2: have headed out my number two gang members that have
Speaker 2: indicated to me that they do want to lead change,
Speaker 2: they do want to make change, especially those gang members
Speaker 2: with families. So that we've because you know, the most
Speaker 2: important thing we can do is break that into generational
Speaker 2: gang membership. The impacts so negatively on the children that
Speaker 2: are born into that environment, you know. So yes, of
Speaker 2: course someone stand by always to help those that genuinely
Speaker 2: want to make change, especially those with children. But the
Speaker 2: flip side of it is is policemenner. So I've also
Speaker 2: been very clear that to help affect that change, if
Speaker 2: we have to make it very difficult to be a
Speaker 2: game member in New Zealan, to be part of organized crime,
Speaker 2: to be part of a group that inflicts a massive
Speaker 2: disproportionate with them out of palm on our communities. We're
Speaker 2: going to continue to do that as well, and the
Speaker 2: police are being very effective of doing that.
Speaker 1: How do you reckon the gang patch band's been going.
Speaker 2: It's been hugely successful, it's been very effective. The feedback.
Speaker 2: I've just come from a public meeting right now where
Speaker 2: the feedback and the public's been extremely positive. And the
Speaker 2: frontline police office themselves are really enjoying having those powers
Speaker 2: so they can reassert themselves and the public can see
Speaker 2: that our police are controlling the streets and not be
Speaker 2: in that awful position that we were three years ago
Speaker 2: where the gangs we're we're controlling the streets where they're
Speaker 2: coming out and taking over the public places, intimidating them
Speaker 2: from the public, taking over our provincial towns where they
Speaker 2: were shutting down public rights in the public at pittstonchol
Speaker 2: You haven't seen here that in the last two years
Speaker 2: because the police have been so effective and putting together
Speaker 2: gain disruption units and making sure that they're proactive and
Speaker 2: using the new gang legislation. You know, it's a good
Speaker 2: thing that people don't see gag pictures around anymore because
Speaker 2: they're quite silly, designed to scier and in terminates people.
Speaker 1: So we'll move on to your capacity as Minister for
Speaker 1: Ethnic Communities, and I know that this is one that
Speaker 1: you probably haven't been asked about as often as your
Speaker 1: your breadth of other portfolios, I suppose.
Speaker 3: But in that capacity you condemned.
Speaker 1: The Destiny Church march against foreign religions that was back
Speaker 1: in June. It's pretty bone chilling to see such a
Speaker 1: display in New Zealand and on our streets here. Do
Speaker 1: you think what's happening overseas? And I'm thinking of those
Speaker 1: images of you know, Nazis walking down streets in Melbourne,
Speaker 1: for example. Do you think that's spilling over slowly to
Speaker 1: New Zealand and are you worried?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm working really hard as Minister of Ethnic Community
Speaker 2: to fortify itself as a company. And we've got you know,
Speaker 2: we've got such diversity in our country. We've got leaders
Speaker 2: in every single one of our ethnic communities and our
Speaker 2: faith and religious leaders that completely bind to the fact
Speaker 2: that we should always protect what is so fundamentally important
Speaker 2: to democracy, and that is the freedom protest and the
Speaker 2: freedom of speech. But we can do that in a
Speaker 2: peaceful and tolerant way. And a big part of what
Speaker 2: I've been doing is Minister of Ethnic Communities. It's working
Speaker 2: across all of our communities, all of our faith leaders,
Speaker 2: reinforcing that message around social conhesion, making sure that we
Speaker 2: don't see that type of violence start to wash up
Speaker 2: on our own shores here in New Zealand. Be mindful
Speaker 2: of the fact that we will see that we've seen
Speaker 2: so much conflict and the vision around the world at
Speaker 2: the moment that we've got to work extra hard and
Speaker 2: making sure that if we have a community in our
Speaker 2: and how if we have a community in New Zealand
Speaker 2: that feels unsafe or it's fearful, that we reaped support
Speaker 2: around them and do what we can to make sure
Speaker 2: that we deal.
Speaker 1: With that as part of this portfolio. And I guess
Speaker 1: your role as Police Minister as well. Have you received
Speaker 1: any advice from your Australian counterparts about what the stark rise.
Speaker 3: In this kind of thing happening in Victoria?
Speaker 2: No, I haven't, but we can all see it and
Speaker 2: I had been out to Victoria recently. I was out
Speaker 2: there a month ago with our permissioner for the for
Speaker 2: the service of the plan. Victorian police officers out there,
Speaker 2: but you can see it out of the streets, and
Speaker 2: of course yes I came out and condemned Brian Tommockey
Speaker 2: and the Destiny persh because they have a right to
Speaker 2: get out there and the freedom to focus like everyone does.
Speaker 2: But that turned into really what everyone considered was over violence.
Speaker 2: When you start ripping flags, specifically targeting different communities and
Speaker 2: stabbing them, that scares people. That is actually frightening, and
Speaker 2: so they should actually reflect on the way that they
Speaker 2: are carrying out those protests. So that applies to any
Speaker 2: group in New Zealand. There's a way to be a
Speaker 2: out the protest to get your messapacity from without resorting
Speaker 2: this sort of over violent x and in the ripping
Speaker 2: and burning the flags and trying to scare people.
Speaker 5: There is aspects of speech which should not be allowed.
Speaker 5: For example, people who you know say you should kill
Speaker 5: Chelsea Daniels. She's a very bad person and she deserves it.
Speaker 5: You probably have to edit this out. I mean, that's
Speaker 5: all right now. That would be wrong and it's a
Speaker 5: horrible thing to say, and arguably incitement. There are legitimate
Speaker 5: restrictions on speech, but what's not a legitimate restriction on
Speaker 5: speech is saying you can't say that because it's hateful
Speaker 5: or it will offend someone or hurt someone's feelings, because
Speaker 5: as soon as you give someone in society the power
Speaker 5: to enforce that, it becomes impossible to restrain that power.
Speaker 1: Do you think there needs to be better laws in
Speaker 1: place that clearly outlines I guess what determines free speech
Speaker 1: and what determines hate speech.
Speaker 3: Perhaps because that's a really tricky area, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yes, And we shouldn't go down that rabbit hole. That's
Speaker 2: a whole other Well, it is, it is, and the
Speaker 2: reality of it is is that we must protect the
Speaker 2: freedom to the freet to a speech in this country
Speaker 2: because the minute you try to start to unfringe on that,
Speaker 2: where do you start? When he's gone and we all
Speaker 2: have the right to exercise our free speech. Destiny Church
Speaker 2: chose to exercise their right pre speech in the way
Speaker 2: that they did, and I chose to exercise my right
Speaker 2: pre speech by coming out condemning what they did.
Speaker 1: What's been your biggest achievement in any of your portfolios
Speaker 1: while in governments so far?
Speaker 2: Ah, Look, that's a really good question. Look, I'm very
Speaker 2: proud of the work that we're doing in the way
Speaker 2: that our police force has responded to our new set
Speaker 2: of priorities when we came into government. I just think
Speaker 2: the work they're doing, it's quite still the outstanding, the
Speaker 2: anecdotal feedback I get from the public, the results that
Speaker 2: we've seen starting to flow through. You know, I'm just
Speaker 2: so proud of what they're doing and what they're achieving.
Speaker 2: Emergency management. You know, I've had nineteen local states emergencies
Speaker 2: since I've big Minister. We are making fundamental change in
Speaker 2: the way that we look at and approach these things.
Speaker 2: We've had report after report after our national states of
Speaker 2: emergency highlighting the issues that we need to change. We're
Speaker 2: doing that. We've got an investment being coming through that
Speaker 2: back the cabinet. We've got new legislation that will provide
Speaker 2: us a solid a platform as a country who operates
Speaker 2: from corrections. Look, without a doubt, I am so proud
Speaker 2: of our correction Service. All of our officers that are
Speaker 2: either in a directions facility or out in the community
Speaker 2: doing community related corrections work with you know, up to
Speaker 2: twenty five to thirty thousand people one time. That is
Speaker 2: such a difficult, challenging job, and they're dealing with some
Speaker 2: of the most violent and difficult people that we have
Speaker 2: in society, and there's a tens of thousands of positive
Speaker 2: actions every week. My big focus there is what simply
Speaker 2: been the delivery of the rehabilitation and an officer Safety
Speaker 2: is doing great work. They've launched two products in the
Speaker 2: last months that two trials that are going that are
Speaker 2: very effective. Expect to report back on one of those,
Speaker 2: Sport and Wreck. You know, that's that's a good.
Speaker 1: I forgot about that one.
Speaker 3: You've got your juggling so many hats, Mark, do you.
Speaker 1: Sleep, yes, occasionally, you must be all over the place.
Speaker 2: I've got a great team, and I'm very lucky, and
Speaker 2: I've got a team that's been med the entire two
Speaker 2: years and and I could not do them them do
Speaker 2: it without them, And they're they're right behind me the
Speaker 2: whole time, and they deserve huge recognition. And I've and
Speaker 2: and great chief executives and and you know, so you know,
Speaker 2: I'm very very lucky. And that's that's enabling and it
Speaker 2: makes a minister's job much easier. I'm just trying to
Speaker 2: think po lift out there. We've got police, we've got friction,
Speaker 2: we've got a gifted community. If yeah, I mean that
Speaker 2: they're all just they're all fantastic agencies. And you know,
Speaker 2: I had the privilege of having a front row seats
Speaker 2: seen the ten TI thousands of positive actions. I get
Speaker 2: reports every week of the outstanding work that our friction
Speaker 2: topics is still at mounted in prison a couple of
Speaker 2: weeks ago, they saved the life of the prisoner. Like
Speaker 2: I said, I've been at the recently at the police
Speaker 2: awards ceremonies, and it's and and and Sadly, the only
Speaker 2: time that you often hear about brichand to police are
Speaker 2: any of these is when there's a negative story I'm
Speaker 2: running in the media, and that's life and I sit that.
Speaker 2: But but you know what, there's just some they do
Speaker 2: so much positive stuff for us in the country, and
Speaker 2: I just think we should be so thankful that the
Speaker 2: farm that we've got them.
Speaker 1: Have you started thinking about next year's election yet or
Speaker 1: do you even have time to think that far ahead?
Speaker 2: No? Not, not really because there is so much going on.
Speaker 2: They're still we're still doing some major reforms. You know.
Speaker 2: I think we'll start thinking about the election as we're
Speaker 2: move into next year. But no, right at the moment,
Speaker 2: especially with the emergency management I'll be down to South
Speaker 2: Island for last week, you know, with the response and
Speaker 2: the recovery is just supported with the response with right
Speaker 2: in the middle of it.
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Mark.
Speaker 2: Say thank you, Chelsea, thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: at enzidherld dot co dot nz.
Speaker 3: The Front Page is produced by Jane Ye.
Speaker 1: And Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 1: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
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