Speaker 1: Chioda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page,
Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. There's
Speaker 1: been a leadership shakeup at the Royal New Zealand Police
Speaker 1: College after a recruiting debacle. It's while a newly released
Speaker 1: survey of training officers has found two thirds were concerned
Speaker 1: about probationary cops understanding of police responsibilities when holding suspects
Speaker 1: and custody. It also found fifty five percent of them
Speaker 1: feel new cops were barely or not at all well
Speaker 1: equipped with knowledge of arrest and charge procedures. All of
Speaker 1: this while the government is slowly backing away from its
Speaker 1: hardline promise of five hundred new cops on the beat
Speaker 1: by November. And at Herald, senior investigative porter Michael Mourra
Speaker 1: has been looking into the police recruitment process and joins
Speaker 1: us now on the Front Page. First off, Mike, tell
Speaker 1: me a little bit about this survey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, the survey got the views of two hundred
Speaker 2: and thirty senior training officers or very experienced police officers
Speaker 2: and sought their feedback on the competency and standards of
Speaker 2: the product that was coming out of the Police College,
Speaker 2: ie the recruits were they up to scratch?
Speaker 3: It was a.
Speaker 2: March survey, so very recent and a look back over
Speaker 2: a six month period in two hundred and thirty senior
Speaker 2: police giving their opinion is obviously, you know, pretty substantial.
Speaker 2: So the survey in summary showed that there was many
Speaker 2: areas where police recruits coming out onto frontline duties were
Speaker 2: performing reasonably, okay, adequately or in the survey's words.
Speaker 3: Quite well.
Speaker 2: And that was driving firearms, tactical gear like use of
Speaker 2: pepper spray and tases, and road policing. Those were all,
Speaker 2: you know, pretty okay. But then there was some really
Speaker 2: concerning findings which were related to what many would see
Speaker 2: as relatively basic policing. So there were issues with custodial
Speaker 2: duties i e. What are the rules and procedures for
Speaker 2: holding a suspect in custody. There were issues around arrest
Speaker 2: and charging procedures, and use of police systems like the
Speaker 2: NEAR application, which is the National Intelligence Application. This is
Speaker 2: the database that police officers can look up and find
Speaker 2: out addresses, convictions, any other intelligence about a suspect.
Speaker 3: So all of those areas.
Speaker 2: And particularly file preparation, that was the worst came in
Speaker 2: for pretty bad scrutiny. Essentially, the senior police who were
Speaker 2: taking part found that in all of those areas, the
Speaker 2: new recruits coming out onto the front line were either
Speaker 2: barely prepared or not well at all prepared in those roles.
Speaker 1: Right, So, when we talk about things like, say, procedures
Speaker 1: for making an arrest or laying charges, is that kind
Speaker 1: of like the Miranda rights thing that we see on
Speaker 1: NCIS or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So it could be anything from the requirement
Speaker 2: to read to suspect their rights. You also have to
Speaker 2: inform them precisely the reason why they're being arrested. In
Speaker 2: other cases, if you executing a warrant and arresting someone
Speaker 2: with a warrant it requested, you must provide that warrant
Speaker 2: within a reasonable timeframe to the suspect. And there's a
Speaker 2: whole lot of other things that I'm not really aware of.
Speaker 2: I'm not a cop, But yeah, it's those procedures around
Speaker 2: the arrest in laying charges potentially, also that the administrative
Speaker 2: work involved in that and quite a few gaps in that.
Speaker 2: In fact, more than fifty percent of respondents felt that
Speaker 2: the new police on the front line were barely equipped
Speaker 2: or not well at all equipped in those areas of
Speaker 2: making arrests and laying charges, which is you know, relatively
Speaker 2: concerning and will certainly give the bosses at the Police
Speaker 2: College and the executive level food for thought in terms
Speaker 2: of going forward.
Speaker 1: Well, you can be the best driver in the world,
Speaker 1: you can be the best at pepper spraying in the world,
Speaker 1: but if you can't get those charges correct and do
Speaker 1: the paperwork involved, it all falls falls down in court,
Speaker 1: doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So file preparation was by far the most serious.
Speaker 2: This is the this is the report we got under
Speaker 2: the Official Information Act and file preparation. It is eighty
Speaker 2: three percent of respondents. So you know, that's well over
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty police who were part of the survey.
Speaker 2: Their findings are that the officers coming out of the
Speaker 2: college were barely or not at all well prepared in
Speaker 2: those respects. So file preparation, as you say, that might
Speaker 2: be making a witness statement from someone. It might be
Speaker 2: a witness, it might be an offender. All of that stuff,
Speaker 2: that paperwork, how you make those notes, where those notes
Speaker 2: are filed, what you do after you've done that interview.
Speaker 2: All that stuff has to be logged. Then is of
Speaker 2: course the file preparation, but file preparation also relates to
Speaker 2: going to court. It also relates to the chain of
Speaker 2: evidence during investigations into serious crime. If you don't get
Speaker 2: that stuff right and you get all the way to
Speaker 2: court and you get a fancy defense lawyer, then they
Speaker 2: will rip police apart and the case will fall apart,
Speaker 2: and a lot of effort goes into that, and so
Speaker 2: that is clearly an area that they must improve on.
Speaker 4: Look, they've pointed out a number of areas that we
Speaker 4: need to pick up and improve, and as we go
Speaker 4: forwards what they've shown us and what we've seen in
Speaker 4: other evaluations, we'll be pulling together and looking at whereas
Speaker 4: our best investment in terms of enhancing and improving training.
Speaker 4: Their feedback is really really valuable because they're on the
Speaker 4: front line with the probationary comp So.
Speaker 2: Does their feedback result in actual change here at the
Speaker 2: college to improve.
Speaker 4: Yes, So we've got a review team underway at the moment.
Speaker 4: He'll be looking to put in place some improvements to
Speaker 4: our current curriculum early next year, and we'll be doing
Speaker 4: some longer term work.
Speaker 1: You've spoken to the Royal and z Police College Director
Speaker 1: Superintendent Sam Keats. Now he's pretty new in the role. Hey,
Speaker 1: what did he have to say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's only actually been director for six weeks at
Speaker 2: the college, so very new. But I think he was
Speaker 2: very very clear during the interview we had that there
Speaker 2: are going to be changes to the course at the
Speaker 2: Police College as a result of this feedback. He couldn't
Speaker 2: precisely say which areas needed to be tweaked, but of
Speaker 2: course you when you look at far preparation and procedures
Speaker 2: for arrest charges, those are obviously key areas that they
Speaker 2: would be looking at. The other thing that I think
Speaker 2: will be up for some debate at the moment is
Speaker 2: just the duration that police spend at Police College. At
Speaker 2: the moment, it's twenty weeks that was on Mark Mitchell's call,
Speaker 2: increased from sixteen earlier this year, so slightly longer. But
Speaker 2: we in New Zealand still have one of the lowest
Speaker 2: training periods in the world according to the Police Association,
Speaker 2: and Chris Carhill told me that essentially he doesn't think
Speaker 2: twenty weeks is long enough. He'd like to see another
Speaker 2: month added on. He also had concerns about the I
Speaker 2: guess real life and environment of training, you know, actually
Speaker 2: getting out to a station during that time that you're
Speaker 2: within the confines of the college to see what policing
Speaker 2: on the frontline is really about.
Speaker 3: Now, Sam Keats told me at the moment.
Speaker 2: There is a one week deployment out of that twenty weeks,
Speaker 2: and listening to Tasha Penny from Police who's also made
Speaker 2: comments on this story, I think that is an area
Speaker 2: where she would like to see more time actually spent
Speaker 2: in practical operational mode as opposed to reading books in
Speaker 2: the police college. And Sam Keats is certainly open to
Speaker 2: making changes in relation to making it more practical in
Speaker 2: terms of the training, and he's also open to the
Speaker 2: idea without making any sort of confirmation that the duration
Speaker 2: of the time recruits spend there could increase.
Speaker 1: Well, that duration actually surprised me. Twenty weeks and you
Speaker 1: get handed a taser and a police car at the
Speaker 1: end of it. I mean, I don't know how long
Speaker 1: you spent studying to be a journalist, but I think
Speaker 1: mine was three years.
Speaker 3: I spent four.
Speaker 2: But I think what you need to look at for
Speaker 2: this is that you know, and Sam Keyes pointed this
Speaker 2: out when we were speaking, is that when a recruit
Speaker 2: has graduated from police College and they've done their twenty
Speaker 2: weeks and they have the ceremony and they are then
Speaker 2: dispersed to whichever district they're going to. It's not like
Speaker 2: they are just left to their own devices. And sam
Speaker 2: Keats words that the training aspect of the college is
Speaker 2: just the beginning of the learning, because technically, once you're
Speaker 2: on the front line, you are a probationary constable i e.
Speaker 2: A junior for a two year period and during that
Speaker 2: time you are supposed to be receiving mentoring and oversight
Speaker 2: from senior police. I guess the question is is a
Speaker 2: senior police officer looking after you.
Speaker 3: The whole time? Well, I doubt it, because.
Speaker 1: They've gone and taken a job in Northern Territory or something.
Speaker 2: Well potentially, but you can't always, even as a probationary constable,
Speaker 2: expect that a senior field training officer is going to
Speaker 2: be your wingman all the time. But certainly you know
Speaker 2: that there is this period once you're on the front
Speaker 2: line that there is feedback and there is oversight.
Speaker 1: When asked about this on Herald Now this week, Prime
Speaker 1: Minister Christopher Luckson said, sort of it feels a little
Speaker 1: bit also like you know a lot of workplaces where
Speaker 1: the new generation is never quite as good as the
Speaker 1: old generation. What did you think of that?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: Well, I think I don't really buy into that sort
Speaker 2: of comment.
Speaker 1: I think that bit of a boomer comment, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Well, it is a bit of a boomer comment, But
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I guess you could kind of make
Speaker 2: that argument. But the point here is that the senior police,
Speaker 2: the experienced police, they are the ones in the know.
Speaker 2: And the fact of the matter is is that doing
Speaker 2: surveys like this if you want to and pre the
Speaker 2: standards of police that we're putting out on the streets
Speaker 2: in New Zealand, is critical because otherwise how do you
Speaker 2: actually improve or tweak or adapt the program that they're learning.
Speaker 2: So look, I don't really buy into that comment. I
Speaker 2: think it's more or less a throwaway remark, to be honest.
Speaker 2: You know, this is clearly an important survey and it's
Speaker 2: one that is going to prompt changes, and those changes,
Speaker 2: according to Superintendent Sam Keats, will be made by early
Speaker 2: next year.
Speaker 1: And he gave us a tiny bit of insight into
Speaker 1: this whole five hundred offices by November deadline.
Speaker 2: Right, well, essentially the the you know, the national government
Speaker 2: has had this target right, five hundred police. It was
Speaker 2: always by the end of November. As the months have
Speaker 2: gone on over this year, over the last six months especially,
Speaker 2: it's gone from oh, look, you know, we're not sure
Speaker 2: if we'll meet that deadline. I can't comment on that,
Speaker 2: to hey, we're not too worried if it doesn't mean that,
Speaker 2: And now the Prime Minister is actually essentially saying that
Speaker 2: that target is dead in the water and that we'll
Speaker 2: get there. When they get there, he'll say it may
Speaker 2: take a couple more months until we get that extra
Speaker 2: five hundred police on the front line. So he's left
Speaker 2: himself a bit of riggle room. But obviously this is
Speaker 2: politically embarrassing because it was a key commitment.
Speaker 3: We know that law and order.
Speaker 2: Is a national party and coalition plank, central plank of
Speaker 2: their election and so when you're promising that we're going
Speaker 2: to do this and you failed to deliver, it doesn't
Speaker 2: look great. And so that the narrative, if you like,
Speaker 2: from our politicians has been changing over the past few
Speaker 2: months until you know, just recently on Herald now essentially
Speaker 2: the PM saying nah, November is not.
Speaker 3: Going to happen.
Speaker 1: And we've spoken about concerns with the recruitment process before.
Speaker 1: I think at the end of June, basically applicants being
Speaker 1: led into college via exemptions, not passing fitness tests, struggling
Speaker 1: through English language tests. Has there been any update on.
Speaker 3: This, Well, yes, today, I've got emails.
Speaker 2: This was around the period where I broke the story
Speaker 2: about applicants who were applying to get into Police College
Speaker 2: and the fact that they were bypassing or being exempted
Speaker 2: from certain tests. When you were applying to get into
Speaker 2: Police College, there are a whole lot of things you
Speaker 2: have to do. You can't just rock up and say I, Mike,
Speaker 2: I want to start at Police College. You know there's
Speaker 2: background checks, et cetera. But you have to do psychometric testing,
Speaker 2: you have to do a fitness test, you have to
Speaker 2: pass literacy so English. Now, of course we know that
Speaker 2: after that story and we revealed that there was problems
Speaker 2: with the fitness test, that staff being exempted. This big
Speaker 2: audit was undertaken and by Police, an internal audit to
Speaker 2: find out how widespread the problems were, and of course
Speaker 2: the audit found that they were very widespread. In fact,
Speaker 2: it was common practice, in the words of the author
Speaker 2: of the audit, that exemptions or discretionary decisions were being made,
Speaker 2: including by some of the top ranked police in the
Speaker 2: country who were exempting these applicants. So the emails I've
Speaker 2: got were in May here from Richard Chambers where he
Speaker 2: really clearly sets the tone saying changes needed.
Speaker 3: We need to be bold, quick and clinical.
Speaker 2: He talks about culture at the Royal New Zealand Police
Speaker 2: College and says, I believe the college may be struggling
Speaker 2: with its identity. This is a question of values, pride
Speaker 2: and brand on standards. He's obviously very clear speaks for
Speaker 2: itself and I'm the view that we need to make
Speaker 2: some changes that make this very clear from the start.
Speaker 2: So what's happened here is that there's been this embarrassing
Speaker 2: revelation about police officers are not up to scratch getting
Speaker 2: into college anyway. Subsequent to that, the Commissioner has come
Speaker 2: in and said right, things need to change.
Speaker 3: And what we know now is.
Speaker 2: That the leadership at the Police College has been completely overhauled.
Speaker 2: As I mentioned, Superintendent Sam Keats is in there. He's
Speaker 2: only been six weeks in the role. He has taken
Speaker 2: over from an acting director who took over from another
Speaker 2: director who was in place before her.
Speaker 3: Sam.
Speaker 2: Superintendent Sam Keats has also got a whole lot of
Speaker 2: other new leaders around him, so the message is pretty
Speaker 2: clear from the police executive. They're not happy about how
Speaker 2: this has played out, and they have launched into quite
Speaker 2: a big overhaul at the Police College in terms of leadership,
Speaker 2: decision making and oversight of the quality.
Speaker 3: Of our place.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Mike.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 1: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 1: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page
Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
Speaker 1: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.