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Speaker 1: The government has announced changes to free speech rules for universities.

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Speaker 1: It says it's concerned that they are currently taking a

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Speaker 1: risk based approach and they need more diverse opinions. The

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Speaker 1: new rules will set out expectations for universities on how

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Speaker 1: to approach freedom of speech issues, and each one will

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Speaker 1: have to adopt a free speech statement. Universities will also

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Speaker 1: be prohibited from taking positions on issues that don't relate

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Speaker 1: to their core functions. I'm sorry, I thought we're talking

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Speaker 1: about freedom of speech. There there's a prohibition. Sandra Gray

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Speaker 1: is the Tertiary Education Union president, joins me. Now, Hello, Sandra, Sandra, Sorry.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, good morning.

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Speaker 1: It is a little ironic that there's all these new

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Speaker 1: rules on freedom of speech which takes away your freedom.

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Speaker 3: Look, I thought you made a really good link there.

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Speaker 3: You know, we want freedom of speech, and yet we

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Speaker 3: want to prohibit what universities can and can't do. It's

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Speaker 3: a bit heavy handed, this approach to campus based speech,

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Speaker 3: to what goes on on university campuses, and it's good reasons.

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Speaker 3: We don't want individual governments dictating what can and can't.

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Speaker 2: Be talked about on a university campus exactly.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you're worry I believe is that it will

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Speaker 1: allow disinformation, misinformation, lies and untruths to be spread at

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Speaker 1: a place of intellectual and scientific rigor.

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Speaker 3: Look, we do need our universities to be very rigorous

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Speaker 3: in our health. Debate is conducted in what's said there,

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Speaker 3: and we really don't need another space because there are

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Speaker 3: many many spaces where people can go out and just

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Speaker 3: say anything they think, anything they like, off the top

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Speaker 3: of their head without evidence. That's not what universities are for.

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Speaker 3: It's not going to help the New Zealand communities that

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Speaker 3: need research, that need rigorous research. It isn't going to

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Speaker 3: help us, as you know, academic communities be involved in

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Speaker 3: good debate. All this is going to do is give

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Speaker 3: people who have no background and an issue another platform,

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Speaker 3: another space to go and speak.

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Speaker 1: Well, the whole thing is the legislation, and this is

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Speaker 1: out of the legislation. Words will require universities to actively

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Speaker 1: promote an environment where ideas can be challenged, controversial issues discussed,

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Speaker 1: and diverse opinions expressed, and ensure that they are not

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Speaker 1: constraining the freedom of speech rights of students, staff for

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Speaker 1: invited speakers. It will also prohibit universities from adopting positions

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Speaker 1: on issues that do not directly relate to their core

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Speaker 1: role or functions. That's the whole thing about the legislation.

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Speaker 1: Do you not already do that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say that universities are already a space

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Speaker 2: where ideas are hotly contested, and that's because that's how

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Speaker 2: you come up with new innovative ideas. Academic freedom is

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Speaker 2: already in legislation, and that's the rule that says you

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Speaker 2: have a responsibility to speak truth to power, to actually

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Speaker 2: say the controversial things that matter. So this seems like

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Speaker 2: an unnecessary piece of legislation, and it does.

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Speaker 3: Seem like it's going to interfere with the rights of

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Speaker 3: the academic communities, with the rights of students to actually

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Speaker 3: get on and.

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Speaker 2: Do the stuff they're already doing. Well, says the government

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Speaker 2: can say, that's not your cool business. Well, what's not

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Speaker 2: you call business?

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Speaker 1: What will your free speech statements say?

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Speaker 3: What will the free speech statements say? Well, actually, I

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Speaker 3: think universities have to have stronger academic freedom statements which

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Speaker 3: provide an obligation for academics to be involved in the

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Speaker 3: big debates of our age and do it with rigor

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Speaker 3: not do it because they go wake up one morning

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Speaker 3: and say, oh, I just want to go out and

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Speaker 3: talk about you know, climate change. I don't know anything

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Speaker 3: about it. I never researched it, but I want to

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Speaker 3: go and talk about it. We don't want that for

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Speaker 3: our academic community.

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Speaker 1: Sandra, Merry Christmas. Thank you so much for waking up

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Speaker 1: early and joining.

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Speaker 3: Us for more from Early Edition with Ryan Bridge.

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Speaker 1: Listen live to News Talks it Be from five am weekdays,

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