Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Francesca Budkin and I'm Louise Area and this
Speaker 1: is season four of our new Zealand Here podcast The
Speaker 1: Little Things, a podcast where we talk to experts and
Speaker 1: find out all the little things you need to know
Speaker 1: to improve all areas of your life and cut through
Speaker 1: the confusion an overload of information out there. We have
Speaker 1: a guest from a cross A Tasman with us today,
Speaker 1: a midlife woman who's taken a proactive position on the
Speaker 1: season of life. The glory years is one of our
Speaker 1: other guests called them, and she's shining a light on
Speaker 1: all the strengths, discoveries, gems and challenges of being mid midlife,
Speaker 1: mid family, mid Korea, but most importantly demonstrating that this
Speaker 1: time of life is anything but average.
Speaker 2: I like the expression glory years. I'm going to stick
Speaker 2: to it. I'm holding on to that. I think you're
Speaker 2: approaching your glory years.
Speaker 1: Thanks, Fanchip. I'm with what I haven't said. I haven't
Speaker 1: given you a compliment to yet. You might want to
Speaker 1: wait about to say. You might be approaching it in
Speaker 1: an abborting a bad manner. No, but I think you've
Speaker 1: been very pragmatic about things. Well, you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: very good at You're not getting worked up about things,
Speaker 1: You're not getting.
Speaker 2: You know, like we just kind of just do it.
Speaker 2: I thought we're done.
Speaker 1: Look que you know, I do spend a probably good
Speaker 1: hour between one am and two getting worked up about things.
Speaker 1: But generally speaking, though, I do think that knowledge is power.
Speaker 1: And we've learned a lot from our approach in this
Speaker 1: podcast to seeking out expert advice, which is always what
Speaker 1: we wanted to do. Where as our guest is she
Speaker 1: does give lots of good advice, but she's talking about
Speaker 1: those the bits in between, you know, the living.
Speaker 2: Parts, absolutely, the bits that we don't think are worth
Speaker 2: talking about. But interestingly, everybody is going through and experiencing
Speaker 2: themselves anyway.
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I always go back to Oliver Berkman and just there
Speaker 2: was a line in his book that went very well,
Speaker 2: then this is how things are. And I think, you know,
Speaker 2: like I just come back to that all the time
Speaker 2: and go, just you know, actually, this is how things are.
Speaker 2: You can make them better, you can improve things, you
Speaker 2: can change things, you can handle things better, you can
Speaker 2: do all those things. But actually just that kind of
Speaker 2: acceptance of well, this is where I'm at, and it's
Speaker 2: a good place and it's all good.
Speaker 1: I think that is something that comes with age. I
Speaker 1: think we all agreed when we were talking to Oliver
Speaker 1: that that that's not something you could tell a nineteen
Speaker 1: twenty year old. But definitely, if you're going to take
Speaker 1: anything out of the glory, is that is that, Like
Speaker 1: you know, it's.
Speaker 2: Like trying to tell a teenager you will be okay,
Speaker 2: you were going to be okay in the long run,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, do you feel like you know you've got
Speaker 1: your ducks in a row yet, Francesca, Ah, no, okay,
Speaker 1: So yes, in a way, I suppose I've got happy
Speaker 1: children who are independent and starting their own lives.
Speaker 2: I've got a loving partner who I adore. I've got
Speaker 2: a house, I've got a career, I've got jobs I love.
Speaker 2: And so there are certain things that, yeah, you can,
Speaker 2: you could tick a box or no. Great, But I
Speaker 2: think the one thing that I'm accepting a lot more
Speaker 2: is that life is this huge roller coaster and I
Speaker 2: see this almost weekly. At the moment, you do not
Speaker 2: know what is around the corner. And while I think
Speaker 2: it's great to have some ducks in a row to
Speaker 2: give you some security, whether it's financial or emotional, whatever
Speaker 2: it is is, I think the most important thing about
Speaker 2: this age and stage is to go, do.
Speaker 1: You know what.
Speaker 2: I've got this wealth of experience, I've got all this
Speaker 2: life experience, and I'm going to rely on that because actually,
Speaker 2: I don't know what tomorrow brings, and I don't know
Speaker 2: when there's going to be a health scare, someone's going
Speaker 2: to lose a job, there's going to be a reality
Speaker 2: I don't know what is around the corner. And so
Speaker 2: in a way, yeah, it's great to have some of
Speaker 2: those ducks in a row, but it's also really important
Speaker 2: to acknowledge you can't keep those ducks. Aren't just going
Speaker 2: to sit there swimming, you know, like in a synchronized fashion.
Speaker 1: No, I've got this vision. Go along to main driving
Speaker 1: in the park and sometimes there's a mother just waddling
Speaker 1: proud as with her ducks in a row, and then
Speaker 1: there's three or four that just scramble out of nowhere
Speaker 1: through out of the reeds. We don't know when those
Speaker 1: ducks come out of the reads. So we're trying to
Speaker 1: harness all that. So I guess midlife is about you.
Speaker 1: That's right, You're cand halfway there, you probably have to
Speaker 1: also accept you will never be fully there, and that's okay,
Speaker 1: and that's okay, yeah yeah, And actually.
Speaker 2: Life would be really boring if your head all your
Speaker 2: ducks in a row, wouldn't it if you were just
Speaker 2: like you knew how things were gonna you know, you went,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, perfect. Because actually, even though we're midlife, I'm
Speaker 2: still hoping I've got decades left to live and I
Speaker 2: don't see myself necessarily winding down. I might see myself
Speaker 2: getting a little bit more time for myself because your
Speaker 2: kids are moving on and things are changing, and I
Speaker 2: really appreciate that being able to have the freedom to
Speaker 2: decide how I want to spend that time. But I
Speaker 2: also see that there's also this whole lot of opportunity
Speaker 2: out there that finally, the sort of age and stage
Speaker 2: gives of freedoms.
Speaker 1: You know, I couldn't agree more. I think I am
Speaker 1: a little bit guilty sometimes about the winding down thing,
Speaker 1: and that's okay too, you know, totally. But I think, like, well,
Speaker 1: Kathy who we spoke to about the running, and you know,
Speaker 1: she's she's lit a fire under me. Yeah so, And
Speaker 1: I have actually got no intentions of one now and
Speaker 1: we are only just over halfway through the journey.
Speaker 2: And if you want to think about it from Kathy's
Speaker 2: point of view, it was that whole thing about and
Speaker 2: I'm simplifying it here. But you might have a personal goal,
Speaker 2: but that doesn't have to be connected to your age.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Like you can think about things quite separately. You can
Speaker 2: have all these great ambitions and goals and go out
Speaker 2: there and do them.
Speaker 1: And you can take up a new hobby like pottery, Like.
Speaker 2: Can I just say just very quickly, pottery teachers are
Speaker 2: the loveliest people on earth. They are the most They
Speaker 2: are kind and generous with their knowledge, and you're always
Speaker 2: learning something new, and then they just so supportive when
Speaker 2: you just make this piece of shit.
Speaker 1: I just I just love them.
Speaker 2: They're just so good for my self esteem.
Speaker 1: Anyway, our guest might be better poised to talk about
Speaker 1: all these things that we're talking about. In her podcast,
Speaker 1: she speaks to women about this sometimes crazy, wonderful and
Speaker 1: frustrating time of life. So this ZEP is not about
Speaker 1: getting expert advice per se. It's about the acknowledgment of
Speaker 1: these middle years. There's something quite different from other stages
Speaker 1: of life and talking about that with the women we're
Speaker 1: spending these years worth. It's about taking a moment, grab
Speaker 1: a fresh brew of some kind and having a chat
Speaker 1: about our shared experiences. Holly Wainewright is the executive editor
Speaker 1: at Australia's largest independent women's media group, Mamma Maya. She's
Speaker 1: also a writer and host of their daily Mama Maya podcast,
Speaker 1: Mamma Maya Out Loud and her own podcast mid Holly
Speaker 1: is also a published fiction author and her most recent
Speaker 1: book has just launched to great reviews. It's called He
Speaker 1: Would Never. She's a mother of two teens, a loving
Speaker 1: partner and lately she's a patient Vida Garden and somehow
Speaker 1: Holly has found time to speak with us today. Welcome Holly.
Speaker 1: It is great to have you with us.
Speaker 3: It's great to be here. Thanks so much for asking me.
Speaker 1: It is just a delight really. Mama Mia is a
Speaker 1: hugely successful women's and media company with an engagement across
Speaker 1: so many ages and stages. How significant is the midlife
Speaker 1: audience these days? Like has it grown in the time
Speaker 1: you've been with the company.
Speaker 3: It's very significant. Because Mama Mia has now been around
Speaker 3: as a website for about seventeen years, which is, you know,
Speaker 3: very grown up in digital world, and I've been working
Speaker 3: there for eleven of those, which is a long time,
Speaker 3: doing lots of different things. And obviously Mia Friedman, who
Speaker 3: started the business, is a gen XA like myself and
Speaker 3: she so there's a portion of the audience that has
Speaker 3: very much grown with her and who are now grappling
Speaker 3: with midlife issues. Also, of course, as you've said, because
Speaker 3: you know, the business is much bigger than Meha and
Speaker 3: I and everything, a really significant young audience too. One
Speaker 3: of the things that's really unique about Mama Mia is
Speaker 3: it has this multi generational appeal. Out Loud, which is
Speaker 3: the other podcast I make with Mia and Jesse Stevens,
Speaker 3: we often have like mothers and adult daughters come to
Speaker 3: our live shows. We have that kind of intergenerational thing
Speaker 3: we're very proud of. But no question that gen X
Speaker 3: midlife portion of the audience is really significant and probably
Speaker 3: have been with us the longest.
Speaker 2: No, that resonates with both Louise and I. We're sort
Speaker 2: of around that that stage age and stage, don't we.
Speaker 1: Louise.
Speaker 2: Not long ago, you reflected on a previous season of
Speaker 2: mid and how the decades from thirty five is to
Speaker 2: sixty five. This is a window where a lot of
Speaker 2: big things happen and we couldn't agree more. Do you
Speaker 2: think that you were ready for it?
Speaker 3: No? I think in some ways, and you know, there's
Speaker 3: lots of level to it, isn't there, Because there's the
Speaker 3: hormonal stuff, and then there's just the fact that there's
Speaker 3: a lot of One of the guests on an episode
Speaker 3: of mid has described as midlife collisions. There are a
Speaker 3: lot of big things abound to happen in that phase
Speaker 3: where you know, maybe you've been parenting for a while,
Speaker 3: or maybe that never happened for you and you're reckoning
Speaker 3: with how you feel about it, or with choices you've made.
Speaker 3: Maybe your relationships are you know, changing, a lot of
Speaker 3: divorce in midlife, a lot of separation, a lot of
Speaker 3: friend dynamics shifting, so and Korea. There's a whole lot
Speaker 3: of stuff happening. But with the hormonal stuff, I think
Speaker 3: I wasn't ready for it because I think I was
Speaker 3: the kind of gen x feminist who was very reluctant
Speaker 3: to give my hormones too much sort of credibility in
Speaker 3: my world. You know, I don't know about you two.
Speaker 3: But when I was younger, you wouldn't ever talk about
Speaker 3: being pre menstrual or having you know, or anything like
Speaker 3: that in a professional environment because you didn't want to
Speaker 3: be dismissed as some kind of crazy woman, you know.
Speaker 3: And I remember when I was pregnant with my first child,
Speaker 3: who's fifteen now, so sixteen years ago, I was adamant
Speaker 3: not to show any like cracks of weakness at work,
Speaker 3: you know. I didn't want to be accused of having
Speaker 3: baby brain or any of those things. So I think
Speaker 3: that I've been a bit of a denier of the
Speaker 3: realities of the female body and the impact it has
Speaker 3: on you. But then what happens is perry menopause, and
Speaker 3: menopause comes along and just smacks you around in the face.
Speaker 3: You have to kind of go, oh, this isn't just
Speaker 3: me who's having this, you know, dealing with all these
Speaker 3: wobbles and issues and physical symptoms that don't make sense,
Speaker 3: and worrying you're losing your mind. This is hormones, and
Speaker 3: I can't deny it any longer. So in some ways
Speaker 3: it's been a bit of a reckoning for me.
Speaker 1: That was very much. I was very much the same
Speaker 1: when I was pregnant with my first child. I think
Speaker 1: my partner wondered whether I realized the consequences of frequency
Speaker 1: until the last moment.
Speaker 2: And I've been very much the same as well. I've
Speaker 2: just kind of got on with things. And then, you know,
Speaker 2: did not even know that perimenopause existed until I was
Speaker 2: forty seven, you know, and my mother made the point,
Speaker 2: she did say to me, I must apologize. I never
Speaker 2: ever mentioned this. I got you through puberty and went
Speaker 2: job done.
Speaker 1: I think we listened to the loud parts that the
Speaker 1: changes in our menstrual cycle. We listened to those, but
Speaker 1: there's all the whispering parts that the foggy brain, that
Speaker 1: all of those other things that we kind of would
Speaker 1: rather put down to anything else other than well, because
Speaker 1: I actually didn't know what perimenopause was, you know, put
Speaker 1: it down to just about anything else.
Speaker 3: Same absolutely, And I think because of the very deep
Speaker 3: agism that's embedded in our societies, and also because I
Speaker 3: think that as women, maybe we've always been you know,
Speaker 3: you're lucky to be here, keep going, you know, that
Speaker 3: kind of I don't know, I think that we, maybe
Speaker 3: as gen x's, were even more worried about how that
Speaker 3: was going to affect us. What's really interesting, though, is
Speaker 3: that now that people are talking about perimenopause much more
Speaker 3: and again Mia Friedman, who's my friend in the co
Speaker 3: founder of Mum and mea with her husband, she put
Speaker 3: together a perimenopause summit a few years ago and the
Speaker 3: reaction was absolutely overwhelming. And then it feels like in
Speaker 3: these last few years it's much more talked about and
Speaker 3: much more discussed, which is fantastic. And then on the
Speaker 3: other end of that, what I was saying before about
Speaker 3: me as a young woman wanting to deny all the
Speaker 3: time that any of my female bits, internal or otherwise
Speaker 3: were affecting me in any way. The young women I
Speaker 3: work with, they talk all the time about what phase
Speaker 3: of their cycle they're at, how they're feeling about it,
Speaker 3: Like it's so shifted, it's really shifted, and I'm really
Speaker 3: delighted about it.
Speaker 1: It's encouraging, for sure, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Well, it's my daughter's everything on an app so question,
Speaker 2: he goes, oh, here it is, mum, Okay, right.
Speaker 3: They know they know a lot more in a lot
Speaker 3: many ways about what's going on with them than we
Speaker 3: do because of technology, So you know, it's it gives,
Speaker 3: it takes away, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Then was it hitting those mid years that inspired you
Speaker 2: to create mid Yes.
Speaker 3: It's really interesting because, as I say, we were talking
Speaker 3: a lot about perimenopause and menopause, but I also wanted
Speaker 3: to make a show at mom and Mia that was
Speaker 3: about midlife. But it wasn't only about that, like because
Speaker 3: we don't again and maybe this isn't my internalized stuff,
Speaker 3: but I don't think. I also don't want to be
Speaker 3: defined by that. I don't want every conversation around women
Speaker 3: in their forties and fifties and beyond to be about hormones.
Speaker 3: I want them to also be my very much is
Speaker 3: about just when we come into this phase in our
Speaker 3: lives where we are more experienced, we are wiser, we've
Speaker 3: been through so much, we've survived a lot, often not
Speaker 3: necessarily talking about myself, but certainly, you know, we can
Speaker 3: all point to that in our friend groups, in our lives,
Speaker 3: and you're so experienced and you know what you're doing
Speaker 3: exactly that moment you're kind of pushed aside by the
Speaker 3: culture and society whatever that means, and sort of pitied
Speaker 3: a little bit, and it's like you're not really relevant anymore?
Speaker 3: Are you? And oh yeah, it's a bit sad to
Speaker 3: be you now. And I find that really infuriating because
Speaker 3: historically men are often at their most powerful in their
Speaker 3: fifties and sixties. And I know that's an external perception
Speaker 3: of power, but you know, if ten years ago you'd
Speaker 3: imagine what a CEO it's, or a leader of a
Speaker 3: world leader, it's a man of that age, you know,
Speaker 3: a white man of that age, whereas women get to
Speaker 3: that age and we're like, oh, slowing down now, you know.
Speaker 3: So I really wanted to make a show that explored
Speaker 3: all these different parts of MED, but with a real
Speaker 3: with a positive feel to it.
Speaker 1: Look, I'll be honest, I love the show. I've been
Speaker 1: listening to MED since it started, and we had started
Speaker 1: this podcast when when I started listening to Mead, and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh gosh, this is so interesting because
Speaker 1: we talked to a lot of people experts in their
Speaker 1: field about some of the physiological stuff, some of the
Speaker 1: more philosophical stuff, but you're talking about women's actual experiences
Speaker 1: on the every day and I often enjoy You're like
Speaker 1: your pre monologue the most, If I'm honest, you have
Speaker 1: a way of articulating the mid life experience, which has
Speaker 1: me kind of nodding in tandem and sometimes feeling a
Speaker 1: bit sort of teary. Do you hear that a lot?
Speaker 3: Yes, And it's an enormous compliment. I love writing those introductions.
Speaker 3: This season, we've mixed them up a little bit, but
Speaker 3: I love writing those introductions because I think, again, you
Speaker 3: just want to express out loud. You know, I've learned
Speaker 3: this over years of writing, obviously, but when you express
Speaker 3: out loud something that women are too embarrassed to say,
Speaker 3: or that they thought they were the only ones who
Speaker 3: felt that way, it's always powerful. And I also want
Speaker 3: them to have a bit of humor when it's relevant
Speaker 3: and a bit of emotion when it's not. And I
Speaker 3: love writing though, it is no question, but I think,
Speaker 3: as I say, I'm just it's an amazingly rich vein
Speaker 3: to be working in because every conversation I have on
Speaker 3: mid with a woman who's you know, somewhere between forty
Speaker 3: and sixty ish is they're always so interesting, Mike, We're.
Speaker 2: So interesting, guys.
Speaker 3: I've been through a lot and know a lot of
Speaker 3: things and have all the good stories and you know,
Speaker 3: have a lot of perspective, and so I love making
Speaker 3: this show.
Speaker 2: Just because our children don't want to listen to us, Solly,
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that there are other people out there
Speaker 2: who don't and appreciate what we might have to offer.
Speaker 2: And it's important to remember that. You know, you were
Speaker 2: just talking before about that whole invisibility thing, and I
Speaker 2: love the way that you're just so positive about just
Speaker 2: ignore that and get on with your life and do
Speaker 2: what you want to do and be out there and things.
Speaker 2: But actually, does it matter if other people or society
Speaker 2: views us as invisible.
Speaker 3: It's interesting because I often talk to my gen X
Speaker 3: friends about whether that's why. So, for example, when I
Speaker 3: turned just before I turned fifty, I went through a
Speaker 3: bit of a you know, crisis about my self image,
Speaker 3: and I started wearing red lipstick. I'm wearing it now.
Speaker 3: In fact, I always put it on before I'm doing
Speaker 3: something worky, like it makes me feel. I started wearing
Speaker 3: red lipstick, and I grew a hairlong, and I bought
Speaker 3: some new clothes, and you realize that it's all it's
Speaker 3: about finding that physical invisibility stuff, right that you're kind
Speaker 3: of like, I'm still here and I'm still interesting and
Speaker 3: it definitely matters. I think I certainly have made peace
Speaker 3: with and most and many midwomen I know and actually
Speaker 3: found a lot of freedom in the invisibility that comes
Speaker 3: from suddenly being untraceable by the male gaze. That's great,
Speaker 3: I think, like I love that to a point. To
Speaker 3: a point, you know, you have a certain amount of freedom,
Speaker 3: because what I think all the time when I'm watching
Speaker 3: my daughter, who's fifteen, so at the other end of that,
Speaker 3: she is suddenly in the last couple of years, and
Speaker 3: my new novel talks about this, but has become intensely
Speaker 3: visible to the world. Right you see that happen to
Speaker 3: them where they're just kids, little girls running around, you know,
Speaker 3: being very physical and being very sort of unself conscious,
Speaker 3: and then suddenly puberty hits them and they are aware
Speaker 3: that this lens has almost just swung onto them, and
Speaker 3: everybody has opinions about everything they're wearing, the way their
Speaker 3: body is looking, every And I'm the other end of that,
Speaker 3: and I can almost you almost feel somewhere this like
Speaker 3: that camera swinging away again. And I think there's a
Speaker 3: lot of freedom to be found in that. But the
Speaker 3: problem with it is we don't want to be invisible
Speaker 3: to people of influence. We don't want to be invisible
Speaker 3: when it comes to having a say in the way
Speaker 3: the world works and our lives work, right. I find
Speaker 3: it really depressing when, particularly maybe in professional settings, but
Speaker 3: otherwise it's like, oh, no, one wants to listen to
Speaker 3: the old ladies, you know. Old ladies have all this wisdom,
Speaker 3: you know. And I also think, and I spoke to
Speaker 3: the author Jane Tara about this in the Invisibility episode,
Speaker 3: that the serious side of it too, is that often
Speaker 3: in midlife we realize we've become a bit invisible to
Speaker 3: ourselves because we maybe have spent a lot of time
Speaker 3: caring for other people, putting our needs aside that might
Speaker 3: be entirely necessary at various points. And the really dangerous
Speaker 3: bit is when you've lost sight of who you are
Speaker 3: and what you need. And that's why I think also
Speaker 3: a lot of midlife women are searching.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's where the power is, just learning how to
Speaker 1: harness the visibility when we want to, and how to
Speaker 1: be out there and very visible when we can. And
Speaker 1: I think that's something that Frinchisca and I both felt
Speaker 1: strongly about when we started this. But what I did
Speaker 1: notice when we all started talking a lot more about
Speaker 1: menopause and perimenopause was a sudden media shift of can
Speaker 1: we be quite about that?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 1: Have we done this?
Speaker 3: Now? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And we were like, sorry, no, we're not turning it
Speaker 1: down now.
Speaker 3: And it's moment, it's moment in the sun is over. Oh,
Speaker 3: menopause is so last year.
Speaker 1: It's not a fair guys. Sorry, I know.
Speaker 3: And it is interesting because you know you asked me
Speaker 3: that question before about whether or not I was prepared
Speaker 3: for it in terms of my own experience of Perry
Speaker 3: and menopause. Like a lot of things, I didn't necessarily
Speaker 3: realize when I was in it that that's what was
Speaker 3: happening to me. The anxiety, the sudden insomnia. I'd never
Speaker 3: struggled to sleep, and I felt like I didn't sleep
Speaker 3: for a year, just a whole range of feeling very
Speaker 3: like you're just not sure if it's you or if
Speaker 3: it's the world. Are you going crazy? What's happening? And
Speaker 3: for me, I have found help and solutions through HRT.
Speaker 3: I know it's not for everybody, And now the infuriating
Speaker 3: thing is that I can't bloody find it. I don't
Speaker 3: know if this is still the same with it, it's
Speaker 3: the same in New Zealand. Terrible supply chain issues mean
Speaker 3: that the little patch that makes me feel more like
Speaker 3: myself is so impossible to find. And so we're not
Speaker 3: going to shut up about these issues until there are
Speaker 3: some better solutions for us.
Speaker 2: Right The government here in New Zealand tried to switch
Speaker 2: dot to another brand and the hour they hadn't quite
Speaker 2: anticipated the outrage from the aged women that would come
Speaker 2: their way, and they very sensibly and very quickly backed
Speaker 2: down from that decision of changing their funding around there,
Speaker 2: which I was very good of them. Choice yes with
Speaker 2: our no no no, those little plastic pieces of gold.
Speaker 2: You know, you've spoken about so many things Holly to
Speaker 2: do with this kind of period of time. I wonder
Speaker 2: what have been what have people really resonated with, What
Speaker 2: have been some of the big takeaways for you? The
Speaker 2: kind of topics that you've spoken about.
Speaker 3: So undoubtedly some of the biggest episodes of MED because
Speaker 3: we sort of tackle a different theme in every episode.
Speaker 3: One of my absolute favorite episodes and one of the
Speaker 3: most listened to, is our episode about grief with this
Speaker 3: incredible woman called doctor Jackie Bailey, who is a death Jeeler.
Speaker 3: This is sort of almost perceived wisdom I guess in
Speaker 3: commercial media is like, oh, it's a bit sad, isn't
Speaker 3: it grief? Like, I know that sounds ridiculous, but people
Speaker 3: would turn away, but because unquestionably, this is a time
Speaker 3: of life. And obviously I'm aware that if you're getting
Speaker 3: to this time of life and only experiencing that level
Speaker 3: of loss for the first time, you're very lucky. But
Speaker 3: there is a lot of loss in this period of
Speaker 3: our lives, and we are soldiering on and not allowed
Speaker 3: to talk about it a lot that episode. What really
Speaker 3: makes me proud is that people pass it around to
Speaker 3: each other. People message me a lot and say I
Speaker 3: wasn't read They maybe had lost somebody, and they'd say,
Speaker 3: I'm not ready to listen to it yet, but my
Speaker 3: friend tells me I have to when I am. And
Speaker 3: then this eldest and then I just think that was
Speaker 3: one of those examples of having a conversation that felt big.
Speaker 3: But Jackie brought so much humor and wisdom, which I
Speaker 3: know sounds a bit wild about humor, but wisdom and
Speaker 3: humanity to it. No platitudes, lots of reality. I loved
Speaker 3: that episode and that resonated really hard. Equally, one we
Speaker 3: did in the last season with Caroline Baum about caring
Speaker 3: for an elderly parent. That was again didn't follow a
Speaker 3: typical script because Caroline's mother as a particularly difficult woman
Speaker 3: as many of our parents are, and moved in with her,
Speaker 3: which Caroline was happy to do as a dutiful daughter,
Speaker 3: and kind of everything went horribly wrong.
Speaker 1: It was really interesting episodes.
Speaker 3: They good then, and that also resonated very hard because
Speaker 3: you know, that's a big theme. But then on the
Speaker 3: other side of that, episodes we've done about body and weight,
Speaker 3: which is a very tricky issue to talk about. We're
Speaker 3: touching on it again this season always go well because
Speaker 3: I think that it's not often for women in this
Speaker 3: phase of life. And I know you know way more
Speaker 3: about this than I do, Louise, but it's like our
Speaker 3: relationship with our body externally shifts a bit from just
Speaker 3: like I wanted to look hot in address or whatever, too,
Speaker 3: I don't feel like myself. I feel like I'm out
Speaker 3: of control of what's happening to me, and you know,
Speaker 3: wanting to get that control back and wanting to have
Speaker 3: live as good a life as possible for a long time,
Speaker 3: so that always goes well. And then, to be honest,
Speaker 3: any really raw and human story always does well. So
Speaker 3: I think the first episode we ever did with Australian
Speaker 3: what is she? I suppose she's a celebrity Julie Goodwin,
Speaker 3: who is a food writer who talked very honestly about
Speaker 3: her own mental health and breakdown, was a hugely successful episode.
Speaker 3: So yeah, pretty much everything is like it's on the
Speaker 3: table at mid the hard things, the funny things, dating,
Speaker 3: divorce always go well. There's a lot of that happening.
Speaker 1: Oh for sure. And I actually quite like that quite
Speaker 1: often you're talking to people who from the outside that
Speaker 1: we might look at and go, oh gosh, they've had
Speaker 1: a fortunate life, you know, and actually nobody gets away
Speaker 1: with having one hundred percent fortunate life, do they not?
Speaker 1: By this point, I don't know, no exactly.
Speaker 2: It's because you've just sort of mentioned things like grief
Speaker 2: and dating and divorce and things, and really it's all
Speaker 2: coming down to changes. They're just major changes, aren't they.
Speaker 3: It is, and it's transitions and that's what this the
Speaker 3: most recent episode that we did with Melinda Gates, which
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, my god, I can't believe I got
Speaker 3: to interview Melinda Gates. But that's the theme of her book,
Speaker 3: and you hear a lot of people talking about that
Speaker 3: at the minute is it is changes, it's transitions. It's
Speaker 3: a massive time of transition. I think this age for women.
Speaker 2: Because in a way we hope that our life experiences
Speaker 2: up to this point are going to help us deal
Speaker 2: with these transitions, like we've got that resilience there, but
Speaker 2: they can still take you by complete surprise and be
Speaker 2: a huge challenge, can't they.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think it's one of my favorite topics is
Speaker 3: about change because one of the things that I find
Speaker 3: very I hate to use the word empowering because it's
Speaker 3: kind of cheesy, but is the idea that you can
Speaker 3: change that when you because often you know, and again
Speaker 3: I'm generalizing, but women might get to a point in
Speaker 3: midlife where they are at a point where they can
Speaker 3: ask themselves some questions about what they want the next
Speaker 3: part to look like. And for me, there's enormous freedom
Speaker 3: in the idea that I can change. I can change things,
Speaker 3: my circumstances, my health, my body, whatever it is, my job,
Speaker 3: my relationships. The idea that change is still on the table,
Speaker 3: that we're not somehow stuck in whatever the patterns are
Speaker 3: and whatever the things are that have brought us to
Speaker 3: where we are, that we can still shift. And I
Speaker 3: think that that the changes that are forced upon us,
Speaker 3: whether that might be a relationship ending or loss or chill,
Speaker 3: leaving home or whatever that is, or menopause has discussed,
Speaker 3: and then the changes we want to make. I think
Speaker 3: that that is really key and core to this time
Speaker 3: of life.
Speaker 2: You're right, you're listening to the little things and now
Speaker 2: Guesst on the podcast, Day is All the MMA MIA
Speaker 2: podcast host hollyway Right, we'll be back shortly after this break. Holly,
Speaker 2: what are some of the best bits of midlife as
Speaker 2: you see them?
Speaker 3: I have to say that for me, like, apart from
Speaker 3: what I discussed before about the hormonal stuff and the
Speaker 3: fact that I've definitely had some mental health challenges in
Speaker 3: my forties I did have in my forties, I really
Speaker 3: like this age. I really like it because it's such
Speaker 3: a cliche to say I know who I am. I'm
Speaker 3: not certain that I do know who I am, but
Speaker 3: I can see things coming. Touish that I'm not one
Speaker 3: of those people who writes five year goals and stuff.
Speaker 3: I should be more like that, but I'm not. But
Speaker 3: the life that I have now is definitely one that
Speaker 3: I've chosen and that I've worked towards. And often when
Speaker 3: you're in the middle of all those all that stuff,
Speaker 3: you can't see it. I like the perspective of being
Speaker 3: able to sit where I am and go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: like I made these things happen, whether that's within my
Speaker 3: family or within my professional life. I really like that
Speaker 3: I feel more confident, and I didn't for a while.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I get a bit irritated when people say about
Speaker 3: midlife women, oh, they don't give an f they know
Speaker 3: who they are, because I think that a lot of
Speaker 3: insecurity can also come at this time, a lot of like, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, I've changed the way it looks, changed the
Speaker 3: way the world sees me change, and you can feel
Speaker 3: very It can really damage your confidence. But I feel
Speaker 3: like I've come out of that a bit now and
Speaker 3: I am much more confident in who I am and
Speaker 3: what I want, what I don't want, and all those things.
Speaker 3: I really enjoy that. I think I've got better. This
Speaker 3: is another thing is that you know, professionally, women are
Speaker 3: often told that they need to pre prepared to shuffle
Speaker 3: off when they're fifty ish. But I'm better at all
Speaker 3: the things that I do than I was when I
Speaker 3: was younger. And of course I am like we all are, right,
Speaker 3: we're more experienced, we know more, we've done it more times.
Speaker 3: So again it's about that not letting the world in.
Speaker 3: So I definitely feel that I'm I'm more skilled than
Speaker 3: I was lots of the things I'm doing.
Speaker 1: Do you like the sage, Luis, Yeah, I'm growing into it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's taken a little while. I was just sitting You're thinking,
Speaker 1: it's not quite like I went into a crystalis and
Speaker 1: came out of butterfly, But there's something in between. You
Speaker 1: sort of disappear and come back. That's how as you know,
Speaker 1: you were describing it. I think for me, I mean,
Speaker 1: I've got two kids. You've got this hit of you, Holly,
Speaker 1: But I've got two kids that have flown the East
Speaker 1: and one still at home, and it's not as awful
Speaker 1: as I thought it was going to be. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: one of the That's one of the things I do.
Speaker 1: I love the relationship I have with them now that
Speaker 1: they're not in my home and I love having one
Speaker 1: at home that I can put all my yeah, all
Speaker 1: my love and two and he's loving that too, So
Speaker 1: it's not defferitely. I don't think anybody could even say
Speaker 1: it's all bad. You know, there are so many good things,
Speaker 1: and even things that you thought were going to be
Speaker 1: bad might be better than you think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and obviously I've got teenagers, so I'm still very
Speaker 3: much happens on parenting. But I like this level of
Speaker 3: hands on parenting much more than I like the little kids.
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously I can get as tary as anyone
Speaker 3: about seeing the old pictures of them when they were
Speaker 3: little and being like, oh, that phase of my life,
Speaker 3: But I have to say I have more freedom now,
Speaker 3: no question, and I like that. What about you? Do
Speaker 3: you think? Do you like this age? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 2: I'm a bit like Louise. I think I'm growing into it.
Speaker 2: I think I'm in a much better place because we
Speaker 2: are talking about it more, you know your podcast, that
Speaker 2: the people that we've spoken to. I'm a lot more
Speaker 2: relaxed about it, and I too appreciating the freedom. I'm
Speaker 2: appreciating that the future's got a whole lot more possibilities
Speaker 2: because my children are happy and independent and sort of
Speaker 2: starting their own lives. And I think for me, probably
Speaker 2: the hardest thing is physical issues, and not so much
Speaker 2: how I look. I'm really happy to go. I've lived
Speaker 2: a really good, fun full life and it's in every
Speaker 2: wrinkle on my face. That doesn't worry me so much.
Speaker 2: It's more just all these really boring aches and pains
Speaker 2: and little mysteries that come along, and the fact that
Speaker 2: some days you just I literally roll out of bed
Speaker 2: in order to get to the shot. You know, Listen,
Speaker 2: it's that after always being very active and being able
Speaker 2: to run across the road whenever I want and no,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get hit by a car, I've
Speaker 2: got a small need problem at the moment, which I
Speaker 2: won't bore you with, Holly, But at the moment, I
Speaker 2: can't do that, and I find that I try not
Speaker 2: to let that get to me. But actually that is
Speaker 2: probably thing that deep down annoys the hell out of me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's and it's the most important really, right. You know,
Speaker 3: we all see my parents are elderly, they're still I'm
Speaker 3: still lucky enough they're both with us. They're far away
Speaker 3: from me, and their physical challenges now have just the
Speaker 3: quality of their life has changed so much. And I
Speaker 3: think that we at this point in our lives, we
Speaker 3: begin to recognize and appreciate that so much more, don't we?
Speaker 3: How much? And it's yeah, that's definitely a big challenge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the hardest part for me is not just
Speaker 1: my own physical challenges. My knees are good, thank goodness,
Speaker 1: But it's keeping on top of every bloody appointment you
Speaker 1: have to have just to stay alive. Right, just had
Speaker 1: some some things taken off am back, yastertone, and he
Speaker 1: was just digging away in my back and I'm telling
Speaker 1: complaining the whole time, as you can expect. Franchisca. Well,
Speaker 1: I've got you this time. I've got my mammogram next.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just never ending. That bothers me. And
Speaker 1: also a lot of maintenance, a lot of bloody maintenance.
Speaker 1: And I don't you know, I've never been a particularly
Speaker 1: vain pierson. I didn't think, no, you're not. But I
Speaker 1: don't like the saying ebit's that that does annoy me.
Speaker 1: And that's gravity. I mean, that's you know, it's gonna,
Speaker 1: it's gonna happen.
Speaker 3: It definitely annoys me. And I wrestle with the with
Speaker 3: the vanity. I wrestle with it a lot. When I'm
Speaker 3: on a good day, I'm just like, oh, it's so boring.
Speaker 3: I don't want to think about my face. On a
Speaker 3: good day, I'm like, it's so boring. I don't want
Speaker 3: to think about my face. This is how it is.
Speaker 3: And on a bad day, You're just like, who is
Speaker 3: that person in the mirror? It's not me, I don't
Speaker 3: heal us. I entirely understand the urge and the desire
Speaker 3: to try and make that person look something more like
Speaker 3: the version of you that you have.
Speaker 2: You know that is so true. It's that disconnects between
Speaker 2: what you're seeing and how you're feeling. Because I still
Speaker 2: think I'm young. I mean, I think I've definitely got
Speaker 2: a biological age, chronicle age, and yes, and I'm down there.
Speaker 2: I'm down there when it comes to how old I
Speaker 2: think I am. You know, I still think I'm a
Speaker 2: good ten to fifteen younger years younger I am. I'm
Speaker 2: kind of often surprised when you know, I've got a
Speaker 2: birthday this month, and I'm kind of like surprised at
Speaker 2: how old I'm.
Speaker 1: Going to be.
Speaker 2: Really sure, really, you know that still hurts, but there
Speaker 2: is that disconnector is so funny. There are days you
Speaker 2: do you just look in the mirror and go, what
Speaker 2: hei we.
Speaker 1: Can admit to that without you know, being perceived as
Speaker 1: vain or self indulgent. I think that's a conversation with
Speaker 1: probably shit need to have more often, because we're all
Speaker 1: thinking it exactly.
Speaker 3: And then you know, and then I think that it's
Speaker 3: complicated now by the fact that you have a million
Speaker 3: choices of things you could do try and make that
Speaker 3: person in the mirror look more like the one in
Speaker 3: your head. But how healthy is it to do all?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: You know, I wrestle with that a bit, but then
Speaker 3: I just give myself a cho I think about my mom.
Speaker 3: I'm obvious, I'm from Manchester in the north of England,
Speaker 3: and I think about how ridiculous my mom would think
Speaker 3: all that was. She'd just be like, for God's sake,
Speaker 3: get over yourself.
Speaker 1: Like anyway, Well, I mean, you've spent a long time,
Speaker 1: and you spent your early career in the temploid press,
Speaker 1: and you know, actually probably reporting on women who are
Speaker 1: our age now who have made all of those choices.
Speaker 1: I can't actually make all those toices either, a family
Speaker 1: holiday or you know, half a face left.
Speaker 3: Of course, no, no, no, most of us cannot. No.
Speaker 1: But so do you think that those women are recently
Speaker 1: with the same things as we all? I mean, they
Speaker 1: need to look a certain way for the profession to
Speaker 1: keep working, presumably, But are they doing us any favors?
Speaker 3: Oh? Well, this is this is the million dollar question.
Speaker 3: Maya and I argue about this all the time because
Speaker 3: a glorious fifty something celebrity will step on a red
Speaker 3: carpet looking twelve and maybe say that's an anti Well
Speaker 3: she won't say exactly this, but she'll say it's an
Speaker 3: anti feminist act like that that is understandable in the
Speaker 3: framework of beauty, of beauty standards that we've all been
Speaker 3: you know, swallowing since we were look since we were
Speaker 3: my daughter's age, but that it's bad for women and
Speaker 3: they should own up to what they're doing, and all
Speaker 3: these things. We have this argument all the time. I think,
Speaker 3: leave us alone. We've got enough scrutiny and enough enough
Speaker 3: sort of pressure about age without also having to constantly
Speaker 3: tell everybody exactly what we're doing to ourselves. But do
Speaker 3: I think it's doing us any favors? No? I think
Speaker 3: it's a bit depressing that we just went through an
Speaker 3: award season in Hollywood where everybody was talking about how
Speaker 3: amazing it is that now there are all these roles
Speaker 3: for women over fifty and used to be the case.
Speaker 3: It used to be that Hollywood actresses were on the
Speaker 3: shelf when they were thirty, blah blah blah. And it's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: but those women don't look like any version of fifty
Speaker 3: that I see in my real world. So is that
Speaker 3: progress or not? So? I don't know. I wrestle with it,
Speaker 3: but I generally come up with you do you. I'm
Speaker 3: trying really hard to be self accepting because I think
Speaker 3: that the flip side of all those beauty standards. I mean,
Speaker 3: I love a serum and a face cream as much
Speaker 3: as the next person, but I'm certainly, you know, financially
Speaker 3: constrained and also sort of ethically constrained about what else.
Speaker 3: I just think, leave us alone.
Speaker 2: You know, our producer is a good decade behind us
Speaker 2: in this journey. But she brought up a really interesting point.
Speaker 2: She said, when we're in our twenties, we have this
Speaker 2: perception of midlife women. Then we get to our forties
Speaker 2: or fifties and we realize that we are actually the
Speaker 2: same as we were at heart, but we know that
Speaker 2: a twenty year old is kind of seeing us through
Speaker 2: this midlife lens. I suppose if there was one message
Speaker 2: you'd want to cut through, what would you want younger
Speaker 2: generations to know about midlife women?
Speaker 3: I just think the one message that I try because
Speaker 3: I work with a lot of young women, and I
Speaker 3: have done for years, and I love it, love it.
Speaker 3: The thing that I'm always telling them and they never
Speaker 3: ever listen. Imagine that is.
Speaker 1: That we hit that we thought that might happen.
Speaker 3: But yeah, is that you know? There isn't Life doesn't
Speaker 3: end at thirty or forty or fifty. You can keep
Speaker 3: doing all the things you want to do as long
Speaker 3: as you can do them, you know. I think I
Speaker 3: see all the time, these ambitious, driven young women around
Speaker 3: me go, well, I have to do absolutely everything that
Speaker 3: I've ever wanted to do before I have a baby,
Speaker 3: or I have to do it all before I get married,
Speaker 3: or whatever it is. Whatever their thing is that they've
Speaker 3: decided is their deadline. And I often want to say
Speaker 3: to them, like, look around you at all these interesting
Speaker 3: women who are older, who are still alive and they
Speaker 3: are still doing things. And you know, I didn't start
Speaker 3: writing books till I was in my forties, and that
Speaker 3: has now become a big and important and part of
Speaker 3: my career and a source of enormous joy. It's not over,
Speaker 3: you know, you will still be able to do all
Speaker 3: the things you want to do, maybe not run across
Speaker 3: the road.
Speaker 1: There is such a very good point. I think there's
Speaker 1: another thing that I'm going to put in the very
Speaker 1: positive tick box for aging is a deadline is when
Speaker 1: you're died. Yes, actually, just keep going, you know.
Speaker 3: And I asked, when I ask midlife women who listen
Speaker 3: to mid and stuff, I do this thing where I
Speaker 3: might send me a picture of you, like living your
Speaker 3: best life. Midlife women are going back to university and retraining,
Speaker 3: like a lot of them like deciding that now they're
Speaker 3: finally going to do that thing they wanted to do,
Speaker 3: whatever it is, and they're reinventing themselves in all kinds
Speaker 3: of ways, and they're you know, you know, coming to
Speaker 3: terms with their sexuality. Well it's just I kind of
Speaker 3: wish that women did young A lot of young women
Speaker 3: didn't put themselves into quite so much pressure that like.
Speaker 1: Now now, now, now, now, no, no, no, you know
Speaker 1: I have a twenty one year old son and he
Speaker 1: puts some stuff under that kind of appreciare too. It
Speaker 1: could just be a generational thing. I've seen it in
Speaker 1: our introduction that I can sometimes be guilty of slipping
Speaker 1: into that is it time to wind down yep mode,
Speaker 1: which you know, people who know me might be surprised
Speaker 1: to hear because I'm a bit full on to relexa. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't suffer from this. You are incredibly busy five
Speaker 1: days a week on Momma me are out loud, a
Speaker 1: live show, a book recently out and mid and two
Speaker 1: children and a partner. And you commute from quite some distance.
Speaker 3: How did you really tired listening to you?
Speaker 1: Sorry? I don't don't put any of it down. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, it's easy to say how do you do it?
Speaker 1: But is it just that what you described before? You know,
Speaker 1: you're just getting going.
Speaker 3: So it's interesting because that's all true that I do
Speaker 3: all those things, but in the last few years. And
Speaker 3: this is interesting because this is about that thing of
Speaker 3: like what do you want and what do you want
Speaker 3: your next actual look like? So for for a good
Speaker 3: eight or nine years at Mamma Mia, I was in
Speaker 3: a management role, so I was, you know, running teams,
Speaker 3: on calls and in meetings all day every day about
Speaker 3: what we were going to do about this and do
Speaker 3: about that and all these things, and also making content.
Speaker 3: And in the last few years I've changed that so
Speaker 3: I'm now I just make things right, so I don't
Speaker 3: have people who report into me. I don't do all
Speaker 3: of that kind of managerial stuff anymore. It has been
Speaker 3: amazingly freeing. And at the time I questioned whether my
Speaker 3: ambition was waning with my estrogen like that, I was
Speaker 3: kind of going, oh, I don't want to be a
Speaker 3: boss lady anymore. You know, I was a boss lady
Speaker 3: for quite a lot of years. I don't want to
Speaker 3: be a boss lady anymore. Is that is my ambition waning?
Speaker 3: But my ambition was just shifting. It was just changing shape, right,
Speaker 3: And I am very busy. But most of the things
Speaker 3: that I'm busy with now are things I love, like
Speaker 3: I love doing them, not every day, like I'm not
Speaker 3: leaping out of bed like birds singing and going oh,
Speaker 3: but generally speaking, they are things that I really like,
Speaker 3: writing books, making podcasts, you know, all of that stuff,
Speaker 3: making new things like creating mid and all that stuff.
Speaker 3: I really enjoy it. So I think that my ambition
Speaker 3: is still revving. But my but my number one kind
Speaker 3: of goal is to be in charge of my time.
Speaker 3: Because you know, when you said is it time to
Speaker 3: slow down? For me, it's not necessarily time to slow down,
Speaker 3: but I need to carve out more time. One thing
Speaker 3: I've learned about myself certainly is I need to carve
Speaker 3: out more time where I just get to be and
Speaker 3: just get to be with my kids, just get to
Speaker 3: be in my garden, just get to do the things
Speaker 3: that recharge me and that I don't I've losing patience
Speaker 3: with always running to someone else's timetable. So I see
Speaker 3: a lot of women in our age bracket not necessarily
Speaker 3: wanting to give everything up, but they want to change
Speaker 3: how it works so it works better for them, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. And I think that that is
Speaker 3: kind of where I am. So people often say, oh,
Speaker 3: you're very busy, and I am, and I you know,
Speaker 3: I would like to you know, I'm making some I'm
Speaker 3: always making choices about what I should focus on and
Speaker 3: not focus on. But there's still so many things I
Speaker 3: want to do as well.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's Oliver Berkman was one of our guests.
Speaker 2: We just adore him and I just love his simple
Speaker 2: philosophy that time is short, you know, it's finite, So
Speaker 2: do the things that mean something to you, that have
Speaker 2: value to you? Does it fill you? It's that simple,
Speaker 2: you know. And I think we do get to the
Speaker 2: sage and where we go Actually, how would I prefer
Speaker 2: to spend my time doing this or that? You know?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Brent and I do. My partner, Brent, who's
Speaker 3: a Kiwi, he's from Auckland. My partner and I we
Speaker 3: talk a lot about what the next now, which we've
Speaker 3: never done before. We've been together twenty years now. We
Speaker 3: talk a lot about what the next ten years might
Speaker 3: look like, and that we probably do want to be
Speaker 3: those old people traveling around in our Campa van and stuff.
Speaker 3: We probably do want to do that. But I think
Speaker 3: that some kind of work, the things that I love writing,
Speaker 3: you know, that kind of will always be a part
Speaker 3: of it, probably till I drop. Like my dad is
Speaker 3: a writer too, and he's eighty and obviously it's not
Speaker 3: his job, but he's It's not like one day just
Speaker 3: when I don't want to write anymore, you know, And.
Speaker 2: We're going to touch on the book at just a moment,
Speaker 2: but I just I wanted to bring up Louise loves
Speaker 2: a word. She loves a word of the year, and
Speaker 2: she's so good at picking the beast one like she'll
Speaker 2: pick one, and I got, all that sounds great.
Speaker 3: What you would tell me?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, by my word?
Speaker 2: Did she focused or consistency? Focus?
Speaker 1: No? Focus was last year? She'll think about that.
Speaker 2: Well, I keep talking, so so she comes up with
Speaker 2: these brilliant words and then I come up with sex
Speaker 2: because I can't sum up the year in one word.
Speaker 2: I had to have like six words or something. And
Speaker 2: I what was that?
Speaker 1: That was strong?
Speaker 2: It was strong?
Speaker 3: There? I like that goodwood?
Speaker 1: Yeah, everything, Yeah, but yours was nap. How's it going
Speaker 1: really badly?
Speaker 3: I said, up, I think to like one thing that
Speaker 3: I should have steady up to this year? I am.
Speaker 3: The thing is is that what I'm getting better at.
Speaker 3: Back to the thing about doing everything is I know
Speaker 3: this period right now is really really busy. So we've
Speaker 3: got mom Mirrut loud tour books coming out. It's like
Speaker 3: one of those times where every minute is crammed. I'm
Speaker 3: hoping we've all heard this before that come winter, the
Speaker 3: other side of this year is going to be much
Speaker 3: more knuppy. I love it.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear the wrap up at the
Speaker 1: end of the year. How that, How that went?
Speaker 2: But and look, let's have a talk about the book.
Speaker 2: He would be about. Lou and I have both raced
Speaker 2: through it. Couldn't got totally totally. How is it thrilling
Speaker 2: or terrifying putting another book out? I mean, what this
Speaker 2: is your fifth? Is that right?
Speaker 3: It's my fifth? It's terrifying. Like I, it doesn't get easier.
Speaker 3: Everyone says it must get easier. I don't really feel
Speaker 3: like it gets it. Certainly didn't get easier to write it.
Speaker 3: This book really kicked my ass, as they say, like
Speaker 3: it really did writing it. I really went through some
Speaker 3: massive confidence crashes. I rewrote it quite a few times.
Speaker 3: I know it was a big deal. So it doesn't
Speaker 3: get easier. And then putting it out there, it's this
Speaker 3: amazing mixture of nerves and excitement. I'm trying to learn
Speaker 3: in terms of us all being wiser, you can't be
Speaker 3: too attached to the outcome, as everybody says, like, you
Speaker 3: can't be too obsessed with is it going to sell
Speaker 3: a lot? All those things, But of course it's your work.
Speaker 3: You love it and you want to be able to
Speaker 3: keep doing it, so you want it to be successful.
Speaker 3: So it's both nerve wracking and exciting. But I still
Speaker 3: get so thrilled when someone says they've read a book
Speaker 3: of mine, and I still get so excited to see
Speaker 3: it on the shelf.
Speaker 1: So exciting. Look, the premise is that you know there's
Speaker 1: an extended group of friends franchshise, grin, we could relate.
Speaker 1: We meet when our children are at kindergarten, and we've
Speaker 1: got various kind of traditions that us in another family
Speaker 1: do through the year, or you know, even if it's
Speaker 1: just once a year. So I totally relate. This group
Speaker 1: of friends go camping every year. I think that's taken
Speaker 1: from your real life.
Speaker 3: Actually does happen in my real life, this group.
Speaker 1: And just all the twists and turns that life takes
Speaker 1: over a long spanning friendship, including raising these kids. It's
Speaker 1: relatable from the get go, and then you've spun in
Speaker 1: such a wildly infuriating antagonist it just makes it for
Speaker 1: total page turner. You know, can you can you give
Speaker 1: us our listeners an idea of what they can expect
Speaker 1: when they pick up this book.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the book, as you've said, it's centers around
Speaker 3: this group of friends who go camping every year, which
Speaker 3: I go camping every year with my mother's group from Matilda,
Speaker 3: my daughter. So we've been you know, friends for fifteen
Speaker 3: years now, and that is a very rich that's a
Speaker 3: very rich text in itself, right, because we've been doing that,
Speaker 3: our children are growing up. They are always funny things
Speaker 3: happen at camping and everybody feels differently about camping and
Speaker 3: all of those things. So that was always fun. So
Speaker 3: I had this idea in my head that I wanted
Speaker 3: to write a book around that. But then the story
Speaker 3: that I wanted to weave in that you referred to
Speaker 3: as about Lockie Short, who is the husband of one
Speaker 3: of the women, possibly the sort of queen bee of
Speaker 3: that group. And he is a terrible person. And it's
Speaker 3: not really in any doubt that he's a terrible person
Speaker 3: from when you first meet him, but the question is
Speaker 3: kind of just how terrible and also what you're willing
Speaker 3: to put up with both in terms of your own
Speaker 3: in terms of for Liss the protagonist, I guess in
Speaker 3: terms of her own relationship with him, what you can
Speaker 3: turn a blind eye to and what you can't, and
Speaker 3: what you can feel your in control of them what
Speaker 3: you can't. But also within that friend group is how
Speaker 3: you know, we're very interested in female friendships, and for
Speaker 3: good reason. But what are the limitations? You know, what
Speaker 3: are you willing to again turn a blind eye to
Speaker 3: within your friendship group? So I really wanted to write
Speaker 3: about all that, So I kind of put those two
Speaker 3: ideas together and the plot hopefully it goes back for
Speaker 3: years that they've been camping previously, but also goes through
Speaker 3: this one long weekend where a lot of stuff happens.
Speaker 1: It sure does. It's a same friendship is not a
Speaker 1: mess of camper and I think you've captured camping so
Speaker 1: well in this and this thing. I don't think she
Speaker 1: even will be. I don't think you're going to come
Speaker 1: camping with me.
Speaker 2: Here's the thing. I don't mind going tramping. I don't
Speaker 2: mind not showering, sleeping in doc hats, I don't mind
Speaker 2: roughing it for a few days. But when it comes
Speaker 2: to relaxing and being on holiday, I just do it
Speaker 2: better with the bed, my own toilet and shot and
Speaker 2: a dick cheer.
Speaker 3: You know. I just that's just me and I'm going
Speaker 3: to point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I look, I've done some camping and things, but
Speaker 2: I just, yeah, they just know what maybe suits me,
Speaker 2: and I'm at an age where I'm just gonna go
Speaker 2: with it.
Speaker 3: I'm not a huge camp but this is the only
Speaker 3: time of year that I go camp or maybe one
Speaker 3: other time. But Brent, my partner, is a big outdoors guy,
Speaker 3: and he would go camping heaps more. But it's just
Speaker 3: it's just such fun to do it in this group environment.
Speaker 3: Every year, you know, somebody's got all the kit, somebody
Speaker 3: me forgets everything always and just ends up borrowing everybody
Speaker 3: else's things. It's been so interesting. We went at Easter
Speaker 3: and our kids are all teenagers now, and it's a
Speaker 3: very different it's a very different game because now we
Speaker 3: all want to go to bed at nine o'clock, you know,
Speaker 3: and then we're like listening out for what the hell
Speaker 3: they're up to, or as it used to be, we'd
Speaker 3: try and get them down so we could go and
Speaker 3: drink red wine around the fire or whatever. Like it's
Speaker 3: it's it's fun.
Speaker 1: Oh, unlike the book. I hope that you go camping
Speaker 1: many many years into the future with no nasty partners.
Speaker 2: Well that's you didn't write about the people that you
Speaker 2: normally kept with people. No, I'm never going to with
Speaker 2: you again.
Speaker 3: As you can imagine, they were my mother's group friends
Speaker 3: were very keen to read the book, and I just
Speaker 3: got the copies when we went away at Easter, so
Speaker 3: I gave them all a copy. They were scanning it like.
Speaker 3: I was like, this is what you're as a fiction author.
Speaker 3: Your friends always think you're writing about them, and you
Speaker 3: always have to say to them, I promise it's not you.
Speaker 3: I promise it's not you, and no one ever really
Speaker 3: believes you. But none of my mother's group friends are
Speaker 3: in that book. Thank god.
Speaker 1: Oh that's really good. I wish you all a success
Speaker 1: for that book. It's fantastic.
Speaker 2: Holly Wayne right, thank you very much for your time today.
Speaker 2: We appreciate it. Thank you for all the conversations you
Speaker 2: have helping us see the positive side to these wonderful
Speaker 2: mid years.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me I have absolutely
Speaker 3: and thank you for putting all this actual expert information
Speaker 3: out there.
Speaker 1: Well, we hope it's helped a couple of people anyway.
Speaker 1: All good, Thanks so much, Holly.
Speaker 3: Lovely to meet you.
Speaker 2: So exciting to end season four with hollywayen Wright, wasn't
Speaker 2: it was?
Speaker 1: I'd been looking forward to speaking with her for some time,
Speaker 1: and actually, as it's transpired, with her being so busy,
Speaker 1: having her now was about the perfect timing, I think.
Speaker 1: From you know, we've had a really interesting season. We've
Speaker 1: gone quite deep philosophically at times, you know, highs and lows,
Speaker 1: but I don't know, it was just a nice, well
Speaker 1: rounded conversation with another midlife woman.
Speaker 2: What episodes have resonated with you or had an impact
Speaker 2: on you? Well?
Speaker 1: As usual, I don't like to it's not favorites per se,
Speaker 1: but ones that have really sunken and Oliver because I
Speaker 1: think I read this book about three times before we
Speaker 1: spoke to him, So if there hasn't hadn't gone, and
Speaker 1: I would have been in trouble. And Kathy the running
Speaker 1: because it's just reminded me how much I love it. Now.
Speaker 1: You know, Francisca and I have been walking a lot,
Speaker 1: partly because of an injury to her knee, and now
Speaker 1: she's just going off. You go go Run, because you
Speaker 1: could see how inspired I was by my podcast What
Speaker 1: About You Friendiskin.
Speaker 2: We started with Lara Bryden and she had released a
Speaker 2: book called The Metabolism Reset, A science based guide for
Speaker 2: Women on balancing insulin, losing weight, and improving health. That
Speaker 2: was the title of the book and I picked that
Speaker 2: up over summer and that was just an absolutely brilliant
Speaker 2: start for me. The beginning was, yeah, look, the book
Speaker 2: is really dense. There was so much and we spoke
Speaker 2: to you know, Lara in the podcast, but we kind
Speaker 2: of only just touched on on the basics really, and
Speaker 2: I still don't know whether to what extent I have
Speaker 2: a metabolic dysfunction, but I know that the amount of
Speaker 2: sugar and alcohol and the foods and things that I
Speaker 2: was eating, and the lack of consistency around my exercise,
Speaker 2: and that the impact that was having on all other
Speaker 2: aspects of my life. I knew that I needed to
Speaker 2: make a change and she just has inspired me to
Speaker 2: do that. And you know, we're three months down and
Speaker 2: I'm happy to say that, you know, all those things
Speaker 2: have improved. I've been to the doctor recently and who
Speaker 2: was you know, a little taken back that the scales
Speaker 2: had gone down and my blood pressure was down, and
Speaker 2: was really nice to get that kind of validation to
Speaker 2: the work I've been doing. Here's the thing, the whole
Speaker 2: idea of so what I've been doing is sheltering, and
Speaker 2: I love this term. Sheltering from alcohol, sugar and ultra
Speaker 2: processed food. Doesn't mean I don't have those things. I
Speaker 2: still do. I still have a couple of glasses of
Speaker 2: wine a week, just not every night. The sugar has
Speaker 2: been a fascinating thing to knock out of my life.
Speaker 2: But I'm still eating fruit and have the occasional treating.
Speaker 2: My goodness, did I go to town over Easter with
Speaker 2: east eggs? My body is now not craving those foods.
Speaker 2: So when I have a bit of a treat and
Speaker 2: having an any time, I then go back to craving
Speaker 2: the good foods that I'm putting in. And I am
Speaker 2: noticing a difference across the board. So that has actually
Speaker 2: been massive. I think it's probably going to take me
Speaker 2: a year to get to where I want to be,
Speaker 2: as you know, as lovely as it is seeing the
Speaker 2: weight come off and things like that, it's going to
Speaker 2: take time. But it's all totally sustainable like I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't go hungry, and I don't feel like I
Speaker 2: have made changes that are really hard to keep the
Speaker 2: actually becoming very natural now and I don't have that
Speaker 2: problem with satiety like I eat and I'm full, and
Speaker 2: then I get hungry again, like proper hunger just before
Speaker 2: lunch or dinner, and I eat again and I'm full.
Speaker 2: I don't have this constant feeling that I can't get full.
Speaker 2: So that's been huge for me, you know, and it's
Speaker 2: going to be an ongoing process, but that was absolutely massive. Look,
Speaker 2: I think the other episode that I found really special
Speaker 2: was the grief episode with Dr Denise Quinlan, and that
Speaker 2: is because I think she's an extraordinary woman and I
Speaker 2: a little bit like what Holly was saying. I was
Speaker 2: a bit worried that this could be a topic which
Speaker 2: is a bit triggering for people or not the right time.
Speaker 2: And yet I know people who've listened to it very
Speaker 2: soon after losing someone and have found great comfort and
Speaker 2: reassurance in it. And I think that's because of Denise
Speaker 2: and just how extraordinary she was and the information she
Speaker 2: had and the help that she got.
Speaker 1: That was what So my eighty five year old stepmother
Speaker 1: lost her husband when she was only maybe forty even
Speaker 1: maybe younger, with four children, and she listened to that.
Speaker 1: At eighty five, she felt compelled to bring her colleagues
Speaker 1: from thirty forty years previous to thank them for being
Speaker 1: so incredible to her when she returned to work after
Speaker 1: the loss of her husband. It was quite profound. And
Speaker 1: for me, having lost my mother at thirteen, it was
Speaker 1: suddenly this acceptance that I'm fifty three and I can
Speaker 1: still feel sad about that. That's actually fine. I can
Speaker 1: still feel sad that she didn't meet a grandchildren. I
Speaker 1: can still wax and wayne and and not put any
Speaker 1: kind of full stop on how you feel about it.
Speaker 2: We do these episodes because we hope that somewhere amongst
Speaker 2: them there'll be a gym that helps people. Right, That's
Speaker 2: why we do them. We want to help people. And
Speaker 2: we just got the most incredible feedback on that episode.
Speaker 2: And look, I just want to say thank you to
Speaker 2: all our guests this season. Everyone is so incredibly generous
Speaker 2: with their time and their knowledge and what they you know,
Speaker 2: what they share with us. I also love Lisa Matson,
Speaker 2: who was our makeup artist. She just gave us so
Speaker 2: much information and look the one thing she and she
Speaker 2: wanted to keep going, but we ran out of time.
Speaker 2: But when she left, she said to us, I didn't
Speaker 2: get around talking about colors, and I want, you know,
Speaker 2: middle aged women to know that the burgundy and purples
Speaker 2: are good on the eye. And can I just say
Speaker 2: that's what I've gone on to day noise.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm loving.
Speaker 2: I'm just sharing that last bit of information.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was actually beautiful. Also the blush. The blush
Speaker 1: was such a good little pisitive advice and cleaning your
Speaker 1: brushes and sponges. Look, you know, talking and listening has
Speaker 1: as a privilege and we are really really lucky that
Speaker 1: we are. We're heard and listened to, and we hope
Speaker 1: that we also do that for our guests and make
Speaker 1: sure that we are conveying their lessons to us and
Speaker 1: New Francisca. That's beautiful. You've always said as a good student,
Speaker 1: but look at you with Lara.
Speaker 2: Well, finally season four folks come through.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us on our New
Speaker 1: Zealand Herald podcast series The Little Things. Yes, this is
Speaker 1: our last episode for season four. It has been awesome
Speaker 1: having you along for the ride. Hey, Please feel free
Speaker 1: to share these podcasts with women in your lives, and
Speaker 1: if you haven't already, feel free to check out seasons
Speaker 1: one to three as well. You can follow this podcast
Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and for
Speaker 1: more on this and other topics. Here to endzed Herald
Speaker 1: dot co dot NZED and.
Speaker 2: Hopefully we'll catch you next time on the Little Things.
Speaker 2: Take care, Bye bye