1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,800 Speaker 1: So back to what's turned out to be Justice Week 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: new laws around assaulting first responders, the coward punish will 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: become a culpable homicide offense, harsher punishment for retail crime. 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: Of course, Paul Goldsmith is the Justice Minister and is 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: with us. 6 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: Very good morning to you morning, Mike Haway, very well. 7 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: Indeed, I don't know whether to do this collectively or individually. 8 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: Do you have KPIs on this? What tangibly do you 9 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: expect to happen as a result of all the announcements 10 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: you've made this week. 11 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 2: Well, our primary goal in the justice space is to 12 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: reduce the number of victims of crime, serious violent crime 13 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: in particular, and so that's the number one that's what 14 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 2: we're focused on. The good newsers that we're making progress 15 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: on that. We set a target to drop from one 16 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: hundred and eighty five thousand New Zealanders being a victim 17 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: of serious crime to one hundred and sixty five by 18 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: twenty twenty nine. Were already down to one hundred and 19 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 2: fifty eight. That's still one hundred and fifty eight thousand 20 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: too many, and we're pushing hard. So all of it's 21 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 2: about sending a clear message that the labor approach of 22 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: somebody else's fault for you creating crime, or it's something 23 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: in the past. No, no, we've got to sheet home 24 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: personal responsibility, send a clear message there will be consequences, 25 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: and each of these are the ways is a different 26 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 2: way of saying that basic message. 27 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: How much of what you've announced is a deterrent as 28 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: opposed to something you will have to act upon. 29 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: Do you think, oh, well, it's both. The extra tools 30 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 2: that the high fines for assaulting first responders is well, 31 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 2: it's partly a deterrent, but it's also signaling a very 32 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 2: strong message from society that we won't tolerate it. In 33 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: terms of retail crime, look, I mean, I don't think 34 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 2: anybody would argue that what the current situation is good enough, 35 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: with too many people just walking out of shops not 36 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: paying for stuff, being escorted by security guards to the 37 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: car and driving off. So that's why we'll be giving 38 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: security guards and people the ability to hang on to 39 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: offenders until the police arrive. A whole bunch of things 40 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: which is all designed to push back against this kind 41 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: of this this weird idea that it's okay just to 42 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: walk out without paying for stuff. 43 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: And everybody else can find. Do you honestly expect a 44 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 1: person who next, say, side of beef and a doesn't 45 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: be to pay a fine. 46 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: Well, I expect them to be given a fine if 47 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 2: it's appropriate at that time and there's a police officer available, 48 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: or we can get somebody to view some footage, identify 49 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: the person and send a fine off. Yes, just as 50 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: it's cert appropriate that people pay a fine if they're 51 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 2: speeding down the road. Now, if you're saying, well, some 52 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 2: people don't pay their fines, that's true. And that's another 53 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: challenge that we've got in the justice here, which we're 54 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: very focused on being much more aggressive in collecting fines. 55 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: And I've given the very strong instructions to the Ministry 56 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: of Justice to be more aggressive, and they've already budgeted 57 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: for collecting a whole lot more fines and they will be. 58 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: Part of this week's announcement with the discounts and all 59 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. 60 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: In court. 61 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: Are you are you comfortable with how courts deal with 62 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: what you're trying to do? 63 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: Well, Look, obviously, the first way for a Ministry of 64 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 2: Justice to get sacked is to criticize the judiciary directly. 65 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: So I'm not going to do that. But what I'd 66 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: say is it's Parliament's job to send the law and 67 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,119 Speaker 2: a clear message in the law, and that's what we're 68 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: doing with tougher sentences and restricting the ability of judges 69 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: to massively reduce sentences with all these discounts. That's the 70 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: signal we're sending. I mean, ultimately, we've got other choices 71 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: available to us. We could have mandatory sentences, we could 72 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: have minimum sentences, there are other things we can do. 73 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 2: But I'm very confident that we're sending a clear mess sere. 74 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: A lot of people have texted us this week and said, 75 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: why don't you do minimum? Why don't you do minimum? Well, look, 76 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: look we may well in the future. What we've done 77 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: in the past in New Zealand has always been a 78 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: maximum sentence with discretion under that for you to deal 79 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: with all the many multitudinal, different situations that judges are 80 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 2: dealing with. That's been our approach and we're tightening that. 81 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: But the next option, if we don't feel like we're 82 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: making progress in the messages and getting through, would be 83 00:03:58,520 --> 00:03:59,279 Speaker 2: the alternatives. 84 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: We had Rod Duke on from Brisco's. He said a 85 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: year away, it's a long way to wait. And also 86 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: you're probably going to have to ramp up some of 87 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: those fines and make it a little bit stiffer. Would 88 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: you agree with that assessment or not? 89 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: Well, well, yeah, it goes off to Select Mine and 90 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: people will. If people argue that we need to be 91 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 2: more aggressive, I'm happy to consider that in terms of 92 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 2: it taking a year. Look, it is important. Government's also 93 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: been criticized for doing too much under urgency and so 94 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 2: you know the pattern of sending a bill into Parliament 95 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: and going off to Select Committee and having people from 96 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: all around the country comment on it and point out 97 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: things that could be improved, I think is an important 98 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: part of how things work and that's what we're going 99 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: to do in this case. 100 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: All right, quick matter that's related tertiary, the tertiary clause 101 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: that you're not the tertiary the treaty clause that you're 102 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: looking at in terms of the government. So how long 103 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: is this going to take? 104 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: Well, well, we've got a group of people looking at 105 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: there's about fifteen or twenty pieces of legislation that we're 106 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 2: looking at with references to the tree. The issue is 107 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: that it's been too vague in the past and the 108 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: result is that, you know, in the education context, if 109 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: you've got this vague treaty references scattered all the way 110 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 2: through the legislation in the hands of a radical school, 111 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 2: principle can be interpreted to mean that you've got to 112 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: do it twenty percent of your day every day on 113 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: tel Mari or something like that. And so it's too vague, 114 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 2: and so what we want to do was either take 115 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: it out or be much clearer about what we do 116 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: and what we don't mean, and that process. Look, it's 117 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: going to take a few months for us to fall 118 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: on what the actual changes we want to do and 119 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 2: be clear about, and then we have to legislate for it. 120 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 2: So it's not going to be a quick fix overnight, 121 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 2: but we want to do it properly. 122 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: Seymour wanted it completely. Were you guys pushing back against that, Well, look, 123 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what his comments are. I mean, we're 124 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: part of a cabinet and a collective responsibility. We collectively 125 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 1: made response decisions as a cabinet and that's how it works. 126 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: Appreciate your time very much, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith. I'm 127 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: glad you said that because I got a text a 128 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: moment ago and It's a very good point made what 129 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: Seymour CD yesterday as regards it was us who wanted 130 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: it out but the other guys didn't. Is you could 131 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: argue a breach of cabinet confidentiality. And part of the 132 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: coalition agreement is if you agree, you can agree to disagree, 133 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: and he didn't invoke that. He's just come out all 134 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,119 Speaker 1: of a sudden seema and go and yeah, we wanted 135 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: it out, but they didn't. And so that's that's it's 136 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: got a little fresson about it, I think. 137 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 138 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 2: news talks. 139 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast 140 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.