1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Hilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: War on Wokeness may feel like a new phenomenon, but 4 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: in fact it's been around for centuries. People have been 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: canceled in one way or another since the beginning of time. 6 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: It's human nature to form tribes, create in us and them, 7 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: and serve as judge, jury, and sometimes literally executioner. But 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: in recent years, the cultural wars have erupted between the 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: left and the right, progressive and conservative, the woken anti 10 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: woke over everything from gender and sexuality to race and 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: equal rights discriminations. Making Peace in the Cultural Wars is 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: the latest work by British philosopher ac Grayling, where he 13 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: delves into some of the biggest issues of our time. 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: He joins us to day on the Front Page to 15 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: discuss wokeness, who decides who gets to be canceled and 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: understanding mankind's inherent need to be right. So I want 17 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: to start by getting your definition of two terms, wokeness 18 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: and canceled right. 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: Wokeness is a term that applies to a state of 20 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 2: mind about fighting against discrimination, against racism, against sexism, against homophobia, 21 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: against ageism, disabledism, you know, against transphobia, because it indicates 22 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 2: a phase in this last eight to ten years. Maybe 23 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: is exemplifies it a phase in a continuing effort which 24 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 2: really got going after the Second World War. If you 25 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: cast your mind back to the nineteen sixties and seventies 26 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: with the civil rights movement in the US, second wave 27 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: of feminism against all forms of rumination, because prior to 28 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: that time, women, people of color, gays, and others didn't 29 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: really really even have the right to assert their rights. 30 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: So this current thing, wocism, when you go back to 31 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties, the PC, the political correctness thing, go 32 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 2: back to the sixties civil rights feminism, they're all part 33 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: of the same story. And it's a great story about 34 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: getting a reckoning with history because before that time, so 35 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 2: many marginalized groups, so many people were given second or 36 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 2: third class status, didn't have a voice, many of them, 37 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: and discrimination was just taken for granted. So workism is 38 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: a great thing, a good thing. It's about getting people's rights, 39 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: about making society a fair place. So that's what that 40 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 2: word means. And by the way, people use the word 41 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: woke as a kind of term of abuse. 42 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like derogatories and naughty, very disparaging and very contemptuous. 43 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: But it has an honorable ancestry actually because it comes 44 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: from the African American patois. You know, talking about the 45 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: fact that although the very obvious forms of discrimination can't 46 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: get more obvious than stavery, obviously, but there are also 47 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: lots of hidden forms of racism. And so to be alert, 48 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: to be awake, to be woke to the fact that 49 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: you are going to be encountering all sorts of resistance 50 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: to your chance just to be accepted and to have 51 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: a fair place. That is something that they quite rightly 52 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 2: said they needed to notice. And of course that's been 53 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: picked up by gays, by women, by others who have 54 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 2: said enough of discrimination. Anti workism, by the way, is 55 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: about protecting interests, not about protecting rights, because if you're 56 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: in a privileged position in society, you have a privileged 57 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: access to all the top quality social goods of health, education, 58 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: of opportunities in economics. You know, want other people getting 59 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 2: into your club, do you, so you push back against it, 60 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: And a lot of anti workist endeavor is really about 61 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: underneath old the metrics. It's about denying the rights of 62 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: people to that fair pace. 63 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 3: People that talk about cancel culture never seem to shut 64 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 3: the like. There's more speech now than ever before. The 65 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 3: Internet has democratized criticism. What do we do for a living. 66 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 3: We talk, we criticize, we postulate, we opine, we make jokes, 67 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 3: and now other people are having their say. 68 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 4: And that's not cancel culture. 69 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: That's relentlessness. 70 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 3: We live in relentless culture, and the system of the 71 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 3: Internet and all those other things are incentivized to find 72 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 3: the pressure points of that and exacerbate it. 73 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: And to be canceled. And it's peppered throughout history and 74 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: different kind of iterations, isn't it, from things like banishment 75 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: and to the more extreme of course death. The war 76 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: on woke is just the latest iteration. Tell me a 77 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: little bit more about that, right. 78 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: Well, the whole of history is really about canceling. You know, 79 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: war is one group trying to cancel another group, and 80 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 2: society is canceled. So, for example, we cancel criminals by 81 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 2: locking them up in prison. Canceling can be positive and negative. 82 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: So positive canceling is what happens when you're trying to 83 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: protect people from harm, so you cancel the harm doers. 84 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 2: You cancel the criminal by locking them away in order 85 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: to protect society, but also importantly to try to get 86 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: them to think again and reform and perhaps even make 87 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: some reparations. The thing about the cancel culture, which is 88 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 2: practiced by people on the more active wing of Wokism, 89 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 2: is that it can be undiscriminating. One has to be 90 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: awfully careful always to try to be fair and to 91 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 2: use a due process, you know, because these social media 92 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: pyons are really mob linchings, aren't they. The people who 93 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: do it are judge, jury prosecutor, and sometimes they catch 94 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: in their net people who are therefore unjustly treated. So 95 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: although one can understand the frustration and the anger of 96 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: people who get involved in canceling endeavors, and although there 97 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: are certainly cases of people who need to be canceled 98 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: I'll give you Harvey Weinstein as an egregious example, it's 99 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: also the case that in all these great struggles in 100 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: society to get things right, they will be over each 101 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 2: on both sides. But I do have to point something out, 102 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: which is that if you look at the sort of 103 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 2: extremes of workism and anti workism, on the kind of 104 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 2: extreme of workism, you get people who you know, talk 105 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,799 Speaker 2: about pronouns or they go in for canceling of people 106 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: that they're really angry with. But on the other side 107 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 2: of the story, on the far right, what have you got. 108 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: You've got neo Nazis, white supremacist, misogynists, masculist influences, you know, 109 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 2: dreadful people. There's no symmetry here. It's not as though 110 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 2: there's a kind of moral equivalence that the anti workers 111 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: who are defending their interests and who don't like people 112 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: of color or women or gays or something. I mean, 113 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: they are vile, whereas you know, somebody says to you 114 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: call me them or they. It's hardly the same thing, 115 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: is it. But the point is to get beneath the 116 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: kind of rhetorical battle, because the rhetorical battle is very distracting. 117 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: The real issues are issues about human rights. They're the 118 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: issues about people just having a fair place in society 119 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: and be accepted no matter what their color or sexuality 120 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: or whatever. That's the really key issue. 121 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: And I'm really recognizing the difference between discrimination and being offended. 122 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: Hey, well yeah, I mean, look, the factor of the 123 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: matter is that nobody has a right not to be offended. 124 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: We're all offended by something, okay, and we can be 125 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: mutually offended by something that a person does or say 126 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 2: will offend somebody else. That person might be offended that 127 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: the person is taking offense. So I'm afraid there are 128 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: going to be lots of things that one has to do. 129 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 2: There's hard work that has to be done to make 130 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: society a more inclusive and tolerant place, and one of 131 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: them is to recognize that being offended is a kind 132 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: of inevitability. You've got to suck it up, and you've 133 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: got to recognize that as best we can anyway not 134 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: to offend people. 135 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: Be polite. 136 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: It's easy enough to be polite, but that you're not 137 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: going to be able to please everybody all the time. 138 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: When it comes to cancel culture, do you think some 139 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: individuals or groups can be too quick to label people 140 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: as extremists or racists or homophobes and shut down those 141 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: conversations rather than having a debate or a discussion. 142 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean that there's always the potential for overreach, 143 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 2: there's no question. And when you consider the the frustration 144 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: that people feel that progress is not enough, progress is 145 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: being made, and it's quite interesting, you know, because if 146 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 2: you think about that whole story, which has been unfolding 147 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: since the nineteen sixties, a huge amount of progress has 148 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: been made by people of color and women and gays 149 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 2: and so on to get more accepted in society and 150 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: a better chance that journey is not yet over, that 151 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: the destination is still some way away. You can prove 152 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 2: it easily enough by just looking at the fact that 153 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 2: fifty six percent of university graduates in the US are women. 154 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: The proportion of women who are right in the top 155 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 2: levels of business and government and society in the US 156 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: is much much lower than fifty six percent. So something 157 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: is going on between the two, which is the systemic 158 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 2: sexism that still prevents real opportunities for equal treatment. But 159 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: even though a huge amount of progress has been made, 160 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 2: still to find doors barred against you, or find people 161 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,599 Speaker 2: clumbniating you because you're saying we want our rights, or 162 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 2: you're an ally of people to see their rights, I 163 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: can make people angry, and so you get as a 164 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 2: result over each It happens on both sides. Again, I 165 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 2: iterate the point that the rhetorical battle, the noise, the smoke, 166 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: the things that people say and do which are very 167 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 2: distracting should not distract us. We should look down at 168 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: what's really an issue and see that this is just 169 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 2: you know, the kind of what we philosophers call the epiphenomenon, 170 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: which means that the kind of glow that's given off 171 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: by the situation, because there are really important, serious matters 172 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 2: that underlie the whole woke endeavor. 173 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: And in speaking of human rights in your book, you 174 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: refer to the killing of terrorist leader Osama bin Laden. 175 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: Tell me about that. 176 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: But I use this as an example to kind of 177 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: surprise people. All right, now, some of it, I was, Well, 178 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 2: the thing is some have bin Laden is an extremely 179 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 2: unappealing candidate for being treated, you know, in accordance with 180 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: human rights ideas, because human rights says everybody has right 181 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: to a fair trial, everybody has a right to a 182 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 2: defense to be hurt. Everybody has a right when arrested 183 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: and charged with a crime, to be treated with a 184 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: degree of respect and deference, and not to be treated 185 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 2: to arbitrary punishment. Now, as have been lod was shot 186 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: dead and dropped into the Arabian Gulf, and for good 187 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: pragmatic reasons, because had he been arrested and taken to 188 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: Guantanamo Bay, he might have continued to be a focus 189 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 2: of attention on the part of supporters of his So 190 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: from a pragmatic, short term point of view, there was 191 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: a justification that could be offered by the US government. 192 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: But from a long term point of view, from the 193 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 2: point of view of trying to respect due process and 194 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 2: individual human rights, it would have served the world better 195 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: if the United States, which after all sets it's used 196 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: to set itself up before as a place of law 197 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 2: and civil liberties and human rights, would have been better 198 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: if they had respected those constraints. It's harder to do, 199 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: it's hard work to do that, it's disgusting to have 200 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 2: to do it with somebody like Osama bin Laden, But 201 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: in the end, it would have been better than to 202 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: engage in an extra judicial killing or to say that 203 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 2: he was an enemy compatent or something. So I use 204 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 2: that as an example to sort of joke people into 205 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: thinking that if you're going to take the idea of 206 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 2: human rights seriously, and they should be taking seriously, because 207 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 2: in the end, if the world is going to be 208 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 2: a better place and a fairer place, more inclusive place, 209 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 2: and every single one of us is going to have 210 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: a chance to make for ourselves lives worth living, good lives, 211 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 2: meaningful lives. We have to have our rights respected. That 212 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: means you misrespect other people's rights, and so the whole 213 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: idea of human rights is absolutely fundamental. 214 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 4: Last week I determined that we had enough intelligence to 215 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 4: take action and authorized an operation to get Osama bin 216 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 4: Laden and bring him to justice. After a firefight, they 217 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 4: killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body. 218 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 4: For over two decades, Laden has been al Qaeda's leader 219 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 4: and symbol, and it's continued to plot attacks against our 220 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 4: country and our friends and allies. The death have been 221 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 4: Laden marks the most significant achievement to date in our 222 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 4: nation's effort to defeat al Qaeda. It death does not 223 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 4: mark the end of our effort. 224 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: Do you think that if Osama bin Laden was taken 225 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: in alive and chucked in Guantanamo Bay that his views 226 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: could have been changed with debate, discussion, education. 227 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: Probably not. I mean, you know that there are going 228 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: to be people who are pretty hardline in their views 229 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 2: objection and are not going to be persuaded and suddenly 230 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: become a fuzzy liberal democrat types agreed, But just because 231 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: the Issama bin Laden's might not change doesn't mean that 232 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 2: there aren't possibilities for other people to change. After all, 233 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: it's evident if you think about, say the last couple 234 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: of hundred years, let's say, just think about human treatment 235 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: of animals, think about how people treated horses and dogs 236 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 2: and so on, that kind of treatment of animal is unacceptable. Now, 237 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: the shows that moral progress is possible, and it's possible 238 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: because we do a number of things. We argue, discuss, debate, 239 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: we set an example, We even introduce laws to protect 240 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 2: vulnerable creatures, and bit by bit we managed to shift society. 241 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: So even though there were always going to be people 242 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: who can't be shifted, we've got a hope that we 243 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: can shift other people. And the empirical evidence suggests that 244 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: we can shift people. So, you know, a lot of 245 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: people to go to prison and you don't like it 246 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: in prison or were brought to consider their what they 247 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: did in the harm they caused to other people. You know, 248 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 2: we can hope of them that they can reform and 249 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 2: do better later, and some do so. Anyway, what's the 250 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: alternative to being optimistic about these things? 251 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: If examples of cancelations throughout history and whatever form or 252 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: anything to go by. And I'm talking about the ones 253 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: in your book as well. There seems to be a 254 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: huge amount of hypocrisy at play, you know, like someone 255 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: who's committed a adultery chastising someone who identifies as homosexual. Now, 256 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: do you have to be a perfect person and to 257 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: have committed quote unquote no sins to be able to 258 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: or allowed to cancel someone? 259 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: Look outside the readership and listenership of the Herald here 260 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: in Auckland. There are no perfect people. Okay, So we're 261 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: all an alloy. We've all got faults and failings, and 262 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: the fact that we have, the fact that nobody is 263 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: squeaky clean cannot be allowed to be a barrier to 264 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: trying to make ourselves and other people better by argument 265 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: or by example, or by setting up a social conversation, 266 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: a public conversation about what's going to be acceptable and 267 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: right and try to shift things in the right direction. So, yes, 268 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: I'm in. You know, hypocrisy is a feature of human 269 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: nature to some extent. Of course, it makes human nature 270 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 2: kind of interesting. I mean, there'll be no movies and 271 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: books about love affairs and things like that, and has 272 00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: that with the case, But it would be ad hominem 273 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: to say to somebody, you know, I if smoker said 274 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: to you, don't smoke, it's bad for your health, and 275 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: you say, oh, but you're a smoker. That's a classic 276 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: ad hominem argument, failing to recognize that what that person 277 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: has just said is right. So, you know, hypocrites can 278 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: sometimes amazingly tell the truth and say things that are right. 279 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: So we've just got to go for the best here. 280 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 2: We've got to try to look at what is persuasive 281 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: because it stands up, because a good case can be 282 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: made for it. That's the thing that should matter, not 283 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 2: individual people, but ideas, movements in society. The destination that 284 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: we're trying to reach, which is for a good, peaceful, constructive, cooperative, 285 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: happy society. I say at the end of the book 286 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: that if everybody respected everybody else's human rights, the world 287 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: would really be a very, very much better place. And 288 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: what we would achieve is convivencia. Now, this beautiful word 289 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: is a word that was used to describe the situation 290 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 2: in Spain during the medieval period when Christians and Jews 291 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 2: and Muslims all lived together, were got on together, corporated 292 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: work together, learned from one another, and of course the 293 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 2: historians over idealized it. I'm sure there were some frictions 294 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: and so no doubt, but that period of time is 295 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: known as the period of convivens here of being able 296 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: to live together in a mutually tolerant and accepting way, 297 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: and that should be our aim. And in fact, you know, 298 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 2: the woke endeavor is really an endeavor to get there 299 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: and endeavor to say, every one of us, no matter 300 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 2: what our skin color, what our sexuality, you know, how 301 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 2: we feel about ourselves, we should have our place. We 302 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: should have a fair place and be accepted by others. 303 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: In June twenty twenty, JK. Rowlinging tweeted, and I'm sure 304 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: that you've heard a lot about JK rowling in your research. 305 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: She said, I respect every trans person's right to live 306 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: in any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them. 307 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: I'd march with you if you were discriminated against on 308 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: the basis of being trans. Now, five years later, it 309 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: feels like her entire online existence is about trans people, 310 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: none of it positive, by the way, and none of 311 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: it seeming to fit with that earlier sentiment. How has 312 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: someone like her gone down this path within the space 313 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: of five years, have we pushed her to go there 314 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: or those similar down there by making fun of them 315 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: or immediately labeling them as transphobic or something. 316 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really interesting example of something in fact 317 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 2: of a deliberate phenomenon. Really, if you go back to 318 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, the Supreme Court in the United States gave 319 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: the final sign off on same sex marriage. Now, for 320 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: years and years before then, there was an organization, hugely 321 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 2: well funded organization called the American Principles Project the APP, 322 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 2: and they've been campaigning against same sex marriage. But when 323 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: they lost that when it got to the Supreme Court, 324 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 2: they pivoted in public it's in the public domain here. 325 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: They pivoted and said, so we're going to tackle another issue, 326 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: and this issue is trans trans women, mainly across trans men. 327 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 2: No problem to men, but trans women and women's spaces 328 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 2: and the fugitive invasion of women's spaces by people who 329 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 2: want to present as women but who may pre full 330 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,719 Speaker 2: transition still be male in some respect. So they transitioned 331 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 2: to that. And this just shows you how a very 332 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: well funded and well focused campaign can really become the issue. 333 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 2: Think about this. The number of people who have gender 334 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: dysphoria in the world as a whole is less than 335 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: one percent. Climate change is a huge problem, but you 336 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: would think that the trans issue was equally a big 337 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: problem because of the fact that the right have focused 338 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: on it and dramatized it as a big issue. By 339 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: choosing the most vulnerable group of people and really focusing 340 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 2: on them, they've achieved two things. First, they can make 341 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 2: the whole woke endeavors. I mean, it's very difficult to 342 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 2: tackle sexism or gay rights or something, but if you 343 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: tackle trans and call it woke and the things that 344 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 2: pro trans people say, you can demonize the whole woke thing. Okay, 345 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: so that's part of the strategy there. But the other 346 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 2: thing is that that they've succeeded in turning feminists against 347 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 2: one another, pro trans and trans skeptical feminists. And this 348 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 2: is perfect if you can get your enemy to start 349 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 2: fighting among themselves, which is exactly what the right wing 350 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 2: wanted to happen, and you've seen it happen in the 351 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 2: feminist movement over the trans issue. And if you really 352 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 2: think about the trans issue, firstly, people who are unhappy 353 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: with the assigned sexual gender that they had it at birth. 354 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 2: You know, a lot of them really, I mean, it's 355 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 2: a really serious thing for them, and it's very difficult 356 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 2: for them to live in a way that feels really false, 357 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 2: and if they do adopt the gender expression that feels 358 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,719 Speaker 2: more natural, it's pretty hard to be accepted in society. 359 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,479 Speaker 2: The proof that they're serious is that they're prepared to 360 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 2: do the work of putting up with lack of acceptance 361 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: and you know, people scorning them and so on, so 362 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,719 Speaker 2: you know, for them it's a really key issue. But 363 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 2: all the issue about women's spaces, women's toilets, women's prisons, 364 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: women's sports and so on, there are solutions. You know, 365 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 2: if only there was a calm, rational discussion about this, 366 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 2: it could be sorted out instead of lumping it all 367 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 2: into one thing, which is you know, biological males invading 368 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: women's toilets and so on. That there are ways of 369 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 2: sorting it out, which would you know, bring peace to 370 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: this whole issue. But it's used as a tool to 371 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: have a go at the whole cause by picking on 372 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 2: the most vulnerable group. And when you talk about JK. Rowling, 373 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 2: you see what happens. She was not against individual trans people, 374 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 2: but she was raising concerns about women's spaces, which some 375 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 2: feminists feel very strongly about. You know, there are very 376 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 2: sincere views and boothsades here. But if you can get 377 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: people quarreling with one another, and it gets more and 378 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: more and more as Herbic people get driven into a 379 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 2: more and more polarized position, and then they're all start 380 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 2: hating one another and they forget that actually they are 381 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 2: victims of an attempt to discredit everything to do with 382 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: wuke and to attack this very vulnerable group. 383 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 5: What all of these principles have in common is that 384 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,959 Speaker 5: they afford Mardi different rights from other New Zealanders, seeing 385 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 5: the treaty is a quote partnership between races, as the 386 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 5: Court of Appeal once said, does not work as a 387 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 5: constitutional foundation for our country. The lawyers will defend their 388 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 5: logic to the helps, but there is one question they 389 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 5: cannot answer. Where in the world is it a good 390 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 5: idea to give citizens different rights based on ancestry. Where 391 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 5: in the world has that approach been a success? 392 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: And the Coalition government at the moment has disestablished something 393 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: called the Maori Health Authority, which was focused on bettering 394 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: health outcomes for Maori. Given those outcomes are different from 395 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: paquiha or white people. There's also a controversial bill, the 396 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: Treaty Principles Bill, that essentially sought to make it so 397 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: there were equal rights for all New Zealanders. So this 398 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: line stuck out to me from your book, and I 399 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: thought of this, this line. To treat people equally is 400 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: not always to treat them fairly. Can you tak me 401 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: through an example of. 402 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 2: This, right, Well, if you had an Olympic athlete who 403 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 2: needed five thousand calories a day and you had a 404 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 2: little old lady who needed fifteen hundred calories a day, 405 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: and you forced them to eat the same number of 406 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 2: calories let's say three thousand calories a day each, you're 407 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: unfair to both. You're treating them equally, but you're unfair 408 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: to both. Equity or fairness is the goal, not just 409 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: crude equality. However, equality matters when it comes to what 410 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 2: are sometimes called equality of concern. So people should be 411 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 2: treated equally before the law, they should be treated equally 412 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: by government provision, welfare provision. They should have an equal 413 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 2: opportunity to gain access to what gives you a chance 414 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 2: in life, which is health and education. So their equality 415 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: matters in many other respects. It can be unfair because 416 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 2: that's where equity matters, where fairness matters. And so again 417 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 2: it's a question of thinking a bit about it, you know, 418 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: just a question of going below the surface and just 419 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 2: trying to work things out in a discriminating way. Where 420 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 2: we mean by discriminating this time something positive, discriminating, separating 421 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 2: things out, seeing things clearly, defining things properly, and then 422 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 2: you see how these things work. 423 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: If the work to understand though different points of view 424 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: cannot be one sided, then how can you make the 425 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: side that benefits from injustice and discrimination actually do the 426 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: work right. 427 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: Well, you've got to keep hammering away at them on 428 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: a number of different fronts. So of course the best 429 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: way because you know, one of the things which is 430 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: an issue in the current wars is so called the 431 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: freedom of expression issue. 432 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: All right. 433 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: Of course, people forget that freedom of expression used only 434 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 2: to be the possession of the right because they own 435 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: the means of expression and other people didn't even have 436 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: a voice. Now, people on the work side of the 437 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,719 Speaker 2: argument need freedom of expression to make their case and 438 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: to put their point. Freedom of expression is incredibly precious. 439 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 2: You can't have law without you can't have accusation and defense. 440 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 2: You can't have political process putting forward public policy proposals 441 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: and criticizing them kind of education worth the name. If 442 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: you can't discuss ideas, can't have creativity. Freedom of expression 443 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 2: is absolutely fundamental, but it is not unqualified. There are 444 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 2: occasions famous one of course, is shouting fire and a 445 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 2: crowded theater. You know, there are occasions when the use 446 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 2: of your right to free expression can be irresponsible. So 447 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: the big question is what counts as responsible use of 448 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: free expression, and that is something that can only be 449 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: decided on a case by case basis. That ifether there's 450 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 2: going to be a qualification on freedom of expression, like 451 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 2: in time of war, you want to limit what newspapers 452 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: can report so the enemy don't get information. That's a 453 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 2: justified limitation on free expression. But it has to be 454 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 2: case by case. It has to be term limited, it 455 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: can't be forever. And that the remedies against abuse of 456 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: free expression can't be prior constraint or censorship. There must 457 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: be post factor remedies. I mean, you have to see 458 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 2: how important freedom of expression is and then think of 459 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: ways of managing abuses of it. And I always say, 460 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 2: I say to my students, for example, the way to 461 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: deal with bad expression like hate speech and racist speech 462 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 2: and sexist speech and so on. The way to deal 463 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: with it is not by canceling or not by censoring, 464 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: not by no platforming, but by better free expression, by 465 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 2: having good arguments, and by standing up and challenge. So 466 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 2: the answer to your question is that the response that 467 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 2: we must give must be organized endeavor to try to 468 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: say and do things which are better than the bad 469 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: things that are said and done by the people we oppose. 470 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us, Thank you for having me. 471 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 472 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 473 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 474 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 475 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front 476 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 477 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.