1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,720 Speaker 1: This is news talks will be it's eleven enough to 2 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: find Dickens Okay, horrified, disgusted, na step backwards? Who said this? Well, 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: the science community and they found out this afternoon that 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: there's been a decision by the government to no longer 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: fund research into humanities and social sciences. Instead, all the 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: science funding will be directed to physics and chemistry and 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: maths and engineering and biomedical sciences, the sorts of skills 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: that the government says will rebuild the economy. So Nicola 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: Gaston is a smart person and co director of the 10 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: mcdarmod Institute for Advanced Materials in Nanotechnology. Hello Nicola, Hello, 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: So are you horrified, disgusted? And is this a step 12 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: backwards completely? 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: So I'll just correct you on one thing that you 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 2: said in the intro, which is that this is not 15 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: all of science funding. Right. So this is the Marsden Fund, 16 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 2: which is the fundamental science basic research, blue Sky's research 17 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: in some terms, and there are other research funding mechanisms 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: for science. There is mb funding, There is the Endeavor Fund, 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: There is the Smart Ideas Fund. There is also the 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: Health Research Council funding for health specific medical research. Right, 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 2: So there's a lot out there for science, which is 22 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: not the mars And Fund. The mars And Fund is 23 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: the only funding mechanism that is equitable in the way 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 2: that is distributed across research areas. And it is equitable 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 2: because it is not granted with the intention that there 26 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: should be specific impact. It's about creating knowledge first and foremost, 27 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: and so it does that in science and social science 28 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 2: and the humanities as well. 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: Get it. Get in the Mars and mars And Fund 30 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: will help fund physics and chemistry, maths and engineering and 31 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: biomedical sciences. What upside are there in the areas that 32 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,279 Speaker 1: they're not going to do, such as humanities and social 33 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: sciences In terms of you know, pure economics. 34 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, this, oh, in the terms of pure economics. One 35 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: of the really funny things around scientific investment because funding 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: of science is always funding of research is always a 37 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:14,119 Speaker 2: form of investment. 38 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: Right. 39 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: Governments do it because there is an economic upside downstream. 40 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: That's clear, it's well understood. But the problem is that 41 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: governments the politicians in place, are not very good at 42 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 2: picking what actually has an economic upside downstream. And when 43 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 2: you're doing fundamental research, and it doesn't matter if it's 44 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 2: science or humanities or social science. If you're doing fundamental research, 45 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: the impact, the economic up turn, the economic benefit is 46 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 2: a decade or even multiple decades away, and so politicians 47 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: are not the people the best second guess what this 48 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 2: impact is going to be. And so we tend to 49 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: measure these proposals for research by having experts in that 50 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: particular field who look at the proposal and they evaluate 51 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 2: it on its excellence in terms of is this likely 52 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 2: to change the way that we think about something that's 53 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: really important? And so it's all about knowledge generation. 54 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: Okay, there was a very eloquent argument. But at the 55 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: same time, I don't know if you've noticed that everyone 56 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: has been saying, we don't have money. This is this 57 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: is the theme of this afternoon program. We do not 58 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: have money. People have to be cut. Where there are 59 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: cuts happening all over the place, people are being cut, 60 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: and all sorts of businesses, all sorts of services are 61 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: being cut in this case. I'm sorry, I know this. 62 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: I know this very very well. So I'm a physicist 63 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: and a physics department. I've had colleagues who I work 64 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: with very closely who've been made redundant over the last 65 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 2: year across our universities. Across our CRI system. I have 66 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: had students who have gone overseas because they see absolutely 67 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: no prospect of a job in New Zealand, and that's 68 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: in the physical sciences. So I understand very very well 69 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: the financial constraints that we're working under. But I work 70 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 2: in a field of research that has significant potential for 71 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 2: economic impact, as the Minister sees it. Jenis Collins pointed 72 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: to this in her press release today. I lead an 73 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: institute that has two hundred and forty students at the 74 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: moment across nine institutions working on these areas of physical 75 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: science research. In the last three years, we've had eleven 76 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: startup companies come out of the type of research that 77 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: we do. I have colleagues working in space research. I 78 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: have colleagues working in quantum technologies research. I have colleagues 79 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 2: working in clean tech research. Really trying to leverage the 80 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 2: renewable energy resources of New Zealand for all of our 81 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: economic benefits. So I get the economic arguments. We are 82 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 2: trying to do this, okay, But well it's not something 83 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: that relies on the physical sciences alone. We need our 84 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: colleagues and the social sciences nicole, our colleagues and the 85 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: humanities as well. 86 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: Nicola, I thank you for your championing and we every 87 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: issue needs a champion, and I thank you said very 88 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: much Nicola Gaston's point of view there, and Nicola of 89 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: course is the co director of the mcdarmod Institute for 90 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: Advanced Materials and Natotechnology. 91 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 92 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 2: news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 93 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.