1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:01,200 Speaker 1: Bryan Bridge. 2 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 2: As we talked about on yesterday's show, a senior police 3 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 2: officer has managed to keep his job despite a finding 4 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 2: by the IPCA that he hit his children with a 5 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 2: belt on three separate occasions. Police never laid any charges 6 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: over the incident due to a lack of evidence, but 7 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 2: the Auckland University law professor Mark Hanahan told us yesterday 8 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: that it seems like there was some evidence. 9 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 3: I mean, obviously orang of Tamareki got evidence from the 10 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 3: children talking to them. They said it happened, So I 11 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 3: don't see why they couldn't use that. I mean, even 12 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 3: though it's it's secondhand to some degree, the children did 13 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 3: say to ringer Tamorick. That's why the ringer Tamorick, he 14 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 3: knew about him, thought the children were safe. 15 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 2: Mike Johnson's the police Assistant commissioner, Hi, Mike of R. 16 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: Why wasn't he charged? 17 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 3: Oh? 18 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: If I could just say in an opening, police don't 19 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: ever condone police star or anyone else potically disciplining children. 20 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: It amounts to a criminal offense and it's unacceptable. Obviously, 21 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: if there is admissible evidence, police will lay charges them prosecute. 22 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: In this case, the evidence that was available to police 23 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: wasn't able to be induced in court. There that I 24 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: heard your intro with your law professor, and just to 25 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: make a comment on that, we had legal opinions in 26 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: this matter that advised a senior panel who decide on 27 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: whether police are charged or not, that this evidence was 28 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: inadmissible in this case due to the circumstances of it. 29 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: Okay, understand that are you happy to have a colleague 30 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: in the force whose kids said that they got hit 31 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: three times with a belt? 32 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: So what I would say to that, Ryan, is I 33 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: expect an extreme as to does the commissioner and the 34 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: other police expect a very high standard from our officers? 35 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: Is that high in this case? That's in this case 36 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: that standard has not been there. This matter was then 37 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: when we received that legal advice, was then moved into 38 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 1: the employment space, and there has been a sanction in 39 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: the employment space, and that, as with any other employer. 40 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: I can't go into the details of the specific details 41 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: of that. So you answer to you. 42 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: You obviously think he did do it, otherwise there be 43 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: no sanctions. So I guess the question then becomes you 44 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: started this interview by saying that it is never acceptable 45 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 2: and never okay to hit your kids, and yet you've 46 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 2: got a police officer who you believe has had as kids. 47 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: Well, there is, as I said, admissible evidences that challenge 48 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: in this or a criminal charges, and the legal opinion 49 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: did not support that. And that, ever said, it went 50 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: to a senior panel to review the employment investigation by 51 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: and decision maker was an independent from that district and 52 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 1: was of a senior level also, and the decision maker 53 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: came to the decision around the level and reentness of 54 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: the sanction. 55 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 2: Imply So a senior group of police officers decided that 56 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: something happened because he was sanctioned, but not enough. Hatching 57 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: three times with the belt not enough to warrant losing 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 2: your job. 59 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: But the senior panel, right, just to be clear, relates 60 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: to the criminal the ability of the availability of evidence, 61 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: and where we got to in relation to the criminal matter. 62 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: It was then passed to another officer, a decision maker 63 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: and an employment investigation, which is where we ended up 64 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: in this. 65 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: Matter, right, And they determined that the smacking your kids 66 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: wasn't enough to get fired. 67 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: I determined that outcome and this case, I'm limited to 68 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: what I can say in the employment space. Ryan in 69 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: this manner. 70 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough, I guess you know. Come back to 71 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: your comment at the start of this interview that it's 72 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 2: never okay to do, and yet he is remaining as 73 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: a police officer. Is there more to the story that 74 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: we're not aware of? Was it a light tap with 75 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 2: the kids you know about to run on the road? 76 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: I mean, were they're mitigating circumstances or something that you 77 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: can let the public in on so that they might 78 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: better understand your the reasoning here. 79 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: What I what I can say in this matter is 80 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: this was carefully considered. What I see absolute stand by 81 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: my statement at the opening of our discussion, Ryan and 82 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: the the outcome I suppose in that employment space the 83 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: decision makers felt was appropriate in the set of circumstances, 84 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,239 Speaker 1: and we weren't able to bring charges in the criminal arena. 85 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: One of the reasons that you weren't able to do 86 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: that is because the police officer in question prevented his children, 87 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: didn't give them permission to give you evidence to give 88 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: a statement, and he wouldn't speak either. So I guess 89 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: in that case you've got no evidence, right. How do 90 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: you get around that situation in the future? Do you 91 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: need more powers to compel or something. 92 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: We need to think about some of those options in 93 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: and around those not just for officers. This is the 94 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: same evidential rules and law applies to police officers as 95 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: much as it does to any other member of the public. 96 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: The officer acted within his rights and therefore we don't 97 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: have the right to compel anyone to be interviewed. And 98 00:05:54,760 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: then there's some complexity around children also. 99 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: As in the parents decide on their behalf some yes, okay, 100 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: all right, and Mike, thanks very well. 101 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: Can I just round out Ryan? Thank you very much 102 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: for your time. Look, this is difficult for us, is 103 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: unacceptable and if we sort have reached an evidential threshold, 104 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: we would have acted in a different way. 105 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 2: All right, Mike, I appreciate your time. That's Mike Johnson. 106 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 2: He's the assistant commissioner at Police. For more from Hither 107 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: Duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to news talks. It'd be 108 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.