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Speaker 1: An old idea that's been reheated with a briefing paper

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Speaker 1: suggesting that NCEA, which is about to get some upheaval,

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Speaker 1: of course, has failed to provide clear pathways into the trades.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Sandra Grays the Tertiary Education Union National Secretary and

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Speaker 1: is with us. Very good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Sandra, Good morning mate.

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Speaker 1: Have you got a view generally on NCEEA and its

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Speaker 1: suitability and how well it served us.

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Speaker 2: I think that a lot of people are saying it's

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Speaker 2: time to review, but that really needs to become very

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Speaker 2: very carefully and making sure that teachers and students are

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Speaker 2: at the heart of that review. There's no doubt that

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Speaker 2: all systems it can be tweaked and made better. There

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Speaker 2: are some really good things about MGA. There are some

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Speaker 2: things now that clearly people need to look at and

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Speaker 2: people need to consider how we stop some of the

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Speaker 2: aberrant parts of the system getting through.

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Speaker 1: And as the trades thing an NCEA problem or just

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Speaker 1: a trades thing, in other words, we've always treated trades

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Speaker 1: fairly poorly, doesn't matter what sort of system we're running

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Speaker 1: in the classroom.

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Speaker 2: Look. New Zealand does unfortunately have quite a bad attitude

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Speaker 2: towards trades and vocational education. We have this idea that

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Speaker 2: if you push everybody into the academic and into universities,

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Speaker 2: we're going to get higher wages, You're going to get

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Speaker 2: a better life outcome. So you know, this is a

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Speaker 2: system wide problem. We don't take vocational education seriously, and

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Speaker 2: we really don't talk to kids early enough about the

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Speaker 2: many parts that you can take in your life and

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Speaker 2: the many vocations you can go into.

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Speaker 1: Is that the school's job or is that the industry

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Speaker 1: the various industries jobs to get into schools and go

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Speaker 1: Have you thought about the million different things you can

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Speaker 1: do as an engineer, for example.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things that we have seen

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Speaker 2: in the system over the last few years is greater

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Speaker 2: collaboration between actually tertiary providers and secondary schools with things

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Speaker 2: like Gateway and Star programs, And these are ones where

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Speaker 2: kids who have a real talent for vocational education go

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Speaker 2: and spare a bit of time in the workshops, have

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Speaker 2: stead up on the politics. If we could encourage more

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Speaker 2: of that so they can get a taste of how

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Speaker 2: great it can be to go into one of those

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Speaker 2: many professions. I mean everything from nursing, which is a

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Speaker 2: vocation through to being an engineer or being a mechanic

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Speaker 2: or a barista. If you don't know what it's like,

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Speaker 2: if you haven't got a clue, why would you pick

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Speaker 2: it as your future career. I mean, even something like

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Speaker 2: you do Mike and Journal radio or engineering and sound engineering.

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Speaker 2: Most schools don't have the capacity to show kids what

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Speaker 2: it's like. So we need actually a system that's coherent

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Speaker 2: and works really well and really does give kids those

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Speaker 2: tastes how great it can be.

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Speaker 1: Very well said, have a good weekend. Sandra gra Tertiary

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Speaker 1: Education Union Gateways winner. Our youngest went to a Gateway

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Speaker 1: program and learned from that Gateway program that what she

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Speaker 1: thought she wanted to do, she didn't. When she did it,

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Speaker 1: she didn't like it, and so she's moved in a

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Speaker 1: completely different direction.

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Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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Speaker 2: News Talk Set B from six am weekdays, or follow

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Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.