1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:01,800 Speaker 1: On the huddle with us this evening we have Jack 2 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: tame Q and a host and host of Saturday Mornings 3 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: here on ZB and Jordan Williams of the Taxpayers Union. 4 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: Hi are you too? 5 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 2: Jack? 6 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: I think that the pay equity thing is going to 7 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: cost the government in political capital. 8 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 3: Do you agree? 9 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 4: Maybe around the margins, But I think you would have 10 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 4: to dispel any degree of cynicism whatsoever not to link 11 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 4: the announcement yesterday and the subsequent actions with the budget 12 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 4: and what a two weeks time fifteen days time? And 13 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 4: I think for although it might cost them some support 14 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 4: for those people who are most likely to be caught 15 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 4: up in these the deals or affected by these deals, 16 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 4: if the government is able to argue successfully throughout the 17 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 4: budget that ultimately this is going to be spending that 18 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 4: is redirected into other areas, then I don't think it 19 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 4: will necessarily interesting. 20 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: Okay, so you think so this is not a bad 21 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: move politically from the government. If so, why is that? 22 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: Hold on? 23 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: Let me think, I just want to finish this thought. 24 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: If so, why is the National Party iffy on it 25 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: and scared? 26 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 4: Well, it's such bad lawmaking. Surely we can all agree 27 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 4: like to come out of to come out of nowhere 28 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 4: without or the usual kind of democratic framework that you 29 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 4: would have for a law change of this substance, like 30 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 4: a select committee process, and without a regulatory impact statement. 31 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 4: And we don't know what this law change is necessarily 32 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 4: going to achieve because we haven't actually had an opportunity 33 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 4: to consider any of that. And I think, you know, 34 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 4: there is a certain irony given you know, some of 35 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 4: the some of the members of the act Party who 36 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 4: have I think quite rightly talked about the importance of 37 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 4: regulatory standards in lawmaking making, to come out with zero 38 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 4: notice whatsoever and drop this as that did yesterday, I 39 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 4: don't think set's a great standard for lawmaking. 40 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: Why were you making that funny noise, Jordan, Oh, I 41 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: mean it's returning the law to back to what it was. 42 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 2: We've been having this chat inside the Taxpayers Union that 43 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: the Tea you have taken the principal position that we 44 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: actually don't you know, we think even a truncated select 45 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 2: committee would have been better than nothing. But we had 46 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 2: a former Minister of Finance joining us today on the 47 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 2: staff call and she was saying, look that this is 48 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: something this could have easily been a budget measure what 49 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: the change in the law. Yes, it's bad politics. Yes 50 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: there's probably a political cost with the NATS terrified about 51 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: it was actually inevitable. But the thing is is this 52 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: law and it's not about protecting people from nasty employers 53 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: that are paying men more than women. It is quite 54 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 2: literally justifying enormous pay increases by the public sector unions. 55 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 2: We are getting nurses compared to engineers or what was that, 56 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 2: nurses compared to lawyers. It's bonkers and we've got no 57 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: money here. 58 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: No, I totally agree. Look, I think that this is 59 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: the right thing to do, Jordan, but I think that 60 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: they're doing the wrong way right. First of all, ACT, 61 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: as I said at the very start of the program, 62 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: ACT has been criticizing the previous labor government for doing 63 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: things under urgency because basically it gets around process. Yet 64 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: they're doing exactly the same thing, and then this comes 65 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: without any announcement whatsoever. We pretend it's got nothing to 66 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: do with the budget. All of that shiftiness and cowardice 67 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: and stuff. That's what makes it look bad rather than 68 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: just owning the decision. 69 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 2: No, well that that can all be true. Okay, let 70 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 2: me put my constitutional lawyer hat on because back in 71 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: the day that you used to be a lawyer, you're 72 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: absolutely right. You know bad process, you know terrible. Let 73 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: me put the real politic on, yes, that the government 74 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: could go through even a truncated select committee process and 75 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: play into the public sector union's hands with a scare 76 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: mongering campaign that you know that the government wants to 77 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: keep wages low. The reality is this decision was inevitable. 78 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: It was classic labor party pass the law. Don't fund 79 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: the consequences. It's been used and you can see it 80 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: literally in the figures of enormous pay increases in the 81 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: public sector with a lot more to come. We are 82 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: borrowing forty five million dollars a day. Nikola Willis is 83 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: borrowing more than a billion dollars a month. It was 84 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: inevitable this happened. The question is what is the best 85 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: way to do it. This is at least better than 86 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 2: what I would have expected, which would have been a 87 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: budget day or budget night measure. At least they are 88 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: getting out ahead and stark in that conversation. 89 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 4: Can I just add one little caveat I mean, one 90 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 4: of the things that makes the events of the last 91 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 4: thirty six hours or so unique is that this is retrospective, 92 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 4: that this goes back and changes stuff that's already in place, 93 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 4: and so at the very least, I mean it. 94 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 3: Is retrospective, isn't it. I mean we can't. 95 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 2: I think that there's a more legitimate criticism there, and 96 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: that's our ageous change in the banking regulation to protect 97 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: the banks. 98 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: From Oh, don't even get me started. 99 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's not named all though, right, it can 100 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 4: be an it doesn't. 101 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: It does effect, you know that the negotiations that are 102 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: midway through, all the claims that are midway through, but 103 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 2: that you know, the unions are licking their lips over 104 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 2: like this is a fiscal decision because, as I say, 105 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 2: it was classic labor. You know, pass the law. Good 106 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: intention sounds wonderful, you know, unicorn and fairies, but there's 107 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: simply no bit money. Yes, actually think select Yeah that's true. 108 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: I totally agree with that and the Select committee process. 109 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 5: Yeah. 110 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: Oh, were you going to defend it or was that 111 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: with the end of that sentence. 112 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 4: We lost them. 113 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 5: Oh, I think you. 114 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: Explained to me what just happened. Jeez, he's a bit 115 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: he's a bit young to be a boomer, isn't it anyway? 116 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: We'll take a break and see if we can get 117 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: that boomer back on the front. Write you back to 118 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: the huddle, Jack Tame Jordan, Williams Jordan, when you're back 119 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: with us? 120 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, public interest journalism fun coming off. 121 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: Hey, listen, Jordan, I guess to tell me what do 122 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: you make again? I'm going to read your text right here. 123 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: The stop down playing Trump's risk. Yes, he's unhinged. He's 124 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: already proven that by what you call a joke today, 125 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: maybe an executive order tomorrow. This is because I was arguing, 126 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: when you stop reporting this stuff like annexing Canada as 127 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: if it's serious, because it's not. It's a joke, but 128 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: evidently some people find it serious. What do you actually 129 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: believe he's going to do it? What do you think? 130 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 5: Yeah? 131 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 2: But do you think that actually suggesting that your profession 132 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: ramp up trump rhetoric to eleven just to get more eyeballs. Oh, 133 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: you can't possibly be suggesting that. 134 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: Could No, not at all. I do not think that 135 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: they report everything as if it's actually a real life 136 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: threat just for the clicks. 137 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: The problem is for me, Trump's a third rail because 138 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 2: if I say something supportive of Trump, my email fools 139 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: with tax by union supporters saying, you know, the world 140 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: is at risk if I say something against them. My 141 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: inbox also feels. But to be honest, I've straddled that 142 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 2: fence like there's some that I will admit. I decided 143 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 2: midway through the American election campaign Kamala was so bad 144 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 2: and Trump is such a bufferon that I had to 145 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: be rather than sad of either winning. I was going 146 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: to be happy whoever won. And there is some stuff 147 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: on the policy side, at least first time round that 148 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 2: actually Trump was pretty good. Ad he was a lot 149 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: more moderate in terms of moderate Republican than Kamala would 150 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: have been in terms of right out there dem The 151 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: thing is, though, and then but then you get to 152 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: the tariffs and there's more of the unhinged stuff coming out. 153 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: It's a real worry. I thought that always the third 154 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: term stuff was always just rhetoric. But of course that 155 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: plays up if you are purist, of course that's going 156 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: to terrify you. It's a real question of is it 157 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 2: all a game for him or does he mean it? 158 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it's part okay, So as part of the problem, 159 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: Jack that some things are obviously a joke, but some 160 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: things maybe a joke, but maybe serious, and we just 161 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: can't tell the difference, and so we just decide in 162 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: the media that everything has to be treated seriously. 163 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it is just I think you pretty 164 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 4: much hit the nail on the head. Beer can just 165 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 4: be hard to distinguish what is a joke and what 166 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 4: isn't a joke. And the truth is that often once 167 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 4: facts are born out, over time the goalposts seem to shift. 168 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 4: So for example, remember like Donald Trump was saying that 169 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 4: he would like sort out peace in Ukraine within one day. 170 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 4: I think he said it would take him twenty four hours. 171 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 4: And now he says that that was a joke. Well, 172 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 4: it's some funny joke. 173 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: Do you think he knows what? Do you think he 174 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: just flies kite's. 175 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 3: I think he flies kite's. 176 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 4: I think that's exactly what he does. I think he 177 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 4: flies kites, throws everything up, and then sees wait comes down. 178 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 3: You can't be. 179 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: Serious about the jack because then what you're suggesting is 180 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: he's flying a kite that he that he says, so 181 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: he sees this about Canada and the hope that maybe 182 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: Canada goes Hey, that's a great idea. Yeah, we'll be 183 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: part of the US. No. 184 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 4: I think I think he's happy to say that it's 185 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 4: a joke now. But I think if the response had 186 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 4: been slightly different in Canada, then he would pursue a 187 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 4: different part. 188 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 3: That's how I think he. 189 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: I think he was a different path that he annexes Canada. 190 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 3: No, no, no, that that he encourages some sort of 191 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 3: an enormous constitutional shift. I don't think he thinks that 192 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 3: he's come through. I don't think he's he's not giving 193 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 3: a key for consideration. I mean, the tariffs were a joke. 194 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 2: One minute. 195 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 5: He was going to put tariffs on the whole world. Haha, 196 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 5: what a funny idea. Next minute, I just I think 197 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 5: I think a lot of the time he comes out 198 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 5: with stuff, I think often he just thinks of it 199 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 5: in the moment when he's standing in front of cameras, 200 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 5: there's all sorts of outrage around the world, and then 201 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 5: he waits to see, with a little bit of time, how. 202 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 4: It's actually digested and decides what is a joke and 203 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 4: what isn't a joke. 204 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 3: And that's why it kind. 205 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 4: Of feels like such a volatile moment. So, but to 206 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 4: answer your question whether or not we should treat it 207 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 4: all seriously. That's that's perhaps a different question. I mean, 208 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 4: I think it seems extremely unlikely Canada's going to become 209 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 4: the fifty first state. 210 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, but maybe we won't treat it all seriously. Guys. 211 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Jack, James, Jordan William. 212 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 213 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 2: News Talk said Be from four pm weekdays, or follow 214 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.