1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: A foreign minister is in Argentina this morning, drumming up 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: business and cooperation between our two countries. It's been almost 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: twenty years since a meeting of the sort has been held. 4 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: So Winston Peters is with us. Good morning, Good morning, 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Harvey A Malay is larger than life, seems larger than life. 6 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: What's it like being in a room with them? 7 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 2: Well, he's a very impressive person, of course, but also 8 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 2: very well. He has a certain charisma about him and 9 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 2: a certain credibility because he is a serious economist, and 10 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: there are very few of those in this world today 11 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: with some political experience, and that's the difference. So yes, 12 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 2: we had an excellent conversation and I was very very 13 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 2: grateful to him to give us the time. 14 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: Can you explain why it's been twenty years since we've 15 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: done business with this particular part of the world In 16 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: a way, perhaps we should be doing business. 17 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: No, I can't. You're quite right, but no, it's nineteen 18 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: years since I was last there as foreign minister, and 19 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: there's been others between me and never came here. Look, 20 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: I kind of think I don't know if you remember 21 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 2: the Lande regime ninety two, the fall of the democratical 22 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: government in Chilean as a consequence, we sort of took 23 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 2: a downturn from the layor party's side and at court 24 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 2: national unawares as well. But all those decades we didn't 25 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 2: put the effort into our South American continental potential, both 26 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 2: in business and trade. 27 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: The economic turnaround that he's famous for, allegedly, is it real? 28 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: How disrupted politically and socially is it? Has it been? 29 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 2: Well, I've got it very cautious because you know, I'm 30 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 2: an outside and it's their domestic politics. But the reality 31 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 2: is they're going to see at the moment and have 32 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: sortat of becoming very clear to them that the delays 33 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: and the heavy red tape and all the regulations have 34 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 2: impeded their growth over the years. So, for example, in 35 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: some of the rare minerals next, all of them very 36 00:01:52,920 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: same topography, everything almost identical. The market in Chile fifty 37 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:06,279 Speaker 2: billion dollars plus the same market in Argentina five billion. 38 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 2: And they are looking at really hard and saying, look, 39 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: we've made some classic mistakes. We can't do so much better. 40 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: The wills they always say, at the moment, I think, 41 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 2: and they look like they're pretty focused. 42 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: Where do we fit in economically. 43 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: Well, we're one tenth the size, one tenth the size, 44 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: and population as well. There's a lot of similarity, of 45 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: course for many many reasons. But again, where do we 46 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: fit in? Well, how shall I say that we're beginning 47 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: to see that we've got rare minerals and the problem 48 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 2: is that we've got all the sort of work opposition 49 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: to it, not understanding that they that these rare minerals 50 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: are absolutely critical or future for the self resilience in 51 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 2: the future as well going forward, that there's not an option. 52 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 2: Every other country's brassing this accepting Little Old New Zealand 53 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: wants to pull the on the carpet over its head 54 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: and say we want to don't want to be part 55 00:02:59,440 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: of the world. 56 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: Have we got a connectivity issue with the continent? Generally 57 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: there are enough planes going direct. 58 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 2: No, there's not necessarily good issue. Because we were doing 59 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 2: far better way along back pre COVID than we're doing now. 60 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: We've got to have kept ourselves back in the game. 61 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: But of course we've got engine shortages and what have you, 62 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 2: and so of other airlines. But the Auckland has become 63 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 2: and becoming an Asian hub on the way to South America, 64 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: and we've got to do much better at the airport 65 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: is Auckland as well as make better connection into South America. 66 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: Talk to me about Iran. This is your first chance 67 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: to talk about it. Giving you Roverseas has luxem buried 68 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: himself in his psychobabble the other day and trying to 69 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: talk about the legality of this. Could he have done 70 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: it better? Should we even be discussing it? Given and 71 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: we're at the bottom of the world and we're not 72 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: part of this. 73 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: Well, look to cut to the chase. The reality is 74 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: that I'd rather have serious international legal experts citing this 75 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: than people like Helen Clark and others who are not 76 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: qualified in that very very critical area of a academic understanding, 77 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: and be the circumstantial understanding there bad where We've had 78 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: forty seven years of growing terrorism out of Iran appalling 79 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: circumstances and knewing those in palling circumstances. Eighty eight people 80 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: lost their lives there, I said in Argentina and Bonos 81 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: Aires at the very time Helen Clark was saying we 82 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 2: live in a benign geostrategic environment. She was wrong then 83 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: and she's wrong now. And I'm really saying, at this 84 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: point in time, here comes the next real issue, because 85 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: it's modernized challenges. We face the rule of law on 86 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: the streets of Aukland, same as the rule of law internationally. 87 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: To make it stand, somebody has to enforce it. And 88 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: these people done was to see anything enforced in the 89 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: same way. If it happened on the streets of rot 90 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: the streets of Walkin, we'd have anarchy and chaos. We've 91 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: got the internationally, and some countries are kicking back and 92 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: saying no, we are dealing with a bunch of rigish 93 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: fanatics and they cannot be trusted. And that's where we're 94 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:55,559 Speaker 2: at the prison moment. 95 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: So you back America, whether it's legal or. 96 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: Not, I'm not staying there. I'm saying that there's something 97 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: new here that's not so new. If we look at 98 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: the collection of terrorist actions. They have been financing proxies 99 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 2: all around the world, even as far as Australia in 100 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: major terrorist activities. They've been doing it for decades. But 101 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: all of a sudden now you've got a sort of 102 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: a constantina of concern where some countries are saying enough, 103 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 2: we are going to stop you right here, right now, 104 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden, all those geostrategic experts 105 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: in history might have your Foreign affairs are saying, oh, 106 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 2: we should have the rule of law. Well, my point 107 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: is you're not looking at the same circumstances. Now. It's 108 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 2: not a back of backing anybody or proposing the one. 109 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: We are facing new circumstances in twenty twenty six and 110 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: we should we have to look at them with new eyes. 111 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: Why couldn't lux and say it like that. 112 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: Well, I'm in the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Why don't 113 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: you guys ask me. 114 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: Well, we did it and you couldn't talk until this morning, 115 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: and now you're saying it so that that's nice. And 116 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: I wonder if the Labour Party and those sort of 117 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: people are stuck in this esoteric conversation that misses the 118 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: average New Zealanders who see Iran for what it is 119 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: and probably aren't going to miss the regime. 120 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: Well, I think the Are Party is in the quandry, 121 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: and I think Hopkins is in a serious quandary. You've 122 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: got two former leaders being on as though Labor hasn't 123 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: got a leader in Parliament. Now, if I was the 124 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: leader of the Labor Party, I'll be around to see 125 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: those two leaders and say either you shut your mouth 126 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: or do something about it. I'm the leader right here, 127 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 2: right now. You're not going to ruin my cause by 128 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: behaving as are. You're my proxy. 129 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: Nice to talk to you. Whinston Peter's out of Argentina 130 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: this morning. 131 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 132 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,799 Speaker 2: news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 133 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio