1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald Business Editor at 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: Large and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: is a podcast about money, but we're not going to 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: tell you how to get rich, and we're not going 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: to try and pick the next interest rate move. In 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: this series, I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: how money has shaped their lives and what they've learned 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 1: over the years. For today's podcast, I'm joined by professional director, 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: business leader and quite outspoken social commentator at times, Rob Campbell. 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: You're Rob current, Liam, good to see, Welcome to Money Talks. 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: I'll get started at the beginning because you know you've 12 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: had quite a high profile, particularly in the business world, 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: but not everyone knows the history of your career and 14 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: so forth. But we usually like to go right back 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: on Money Talks and ask what were your first memories 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: of having money? Do you remember as a child holding 17 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: money in your hand and what you might have been 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: off to spend it on. 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 2: My first memories and my background is that my mother 20 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: was Dumbatian, not the dog but the creatos creations as 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: we call them now, and there were living in Upper Heart. 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: There were quite a large number of old creation guys 23 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: who had come out and either gum digging or working 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: in the Ministry of Works. And they lived in a 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: camp at the Trent And Military camp just nearby where 26 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 2: we lived, and they were kind of uncles. And when 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 2: everyone went to visit them, which I always liked for 28 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: this reason, their habit was to give you a. 29 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: Silver coin, right and kidding this silver corn coin would 30 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: have been worth something. 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: It was really it was really quite significant for a 32 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 2: little guy. And that's my first real memory of money, 33 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: and that was guys who didn't have any giving it 34 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: to someone to whom it was quite precious. 35 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: Did you get pocket money and stuff growing up? Was 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: it part of the childhood regime? 37 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 3: Yeah? 38 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: We didn't, in due course, as always later than the 39 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 2: other kids, schoolded and less than the other kids at 40 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 2: school died, But yeah we did, and we had to 41 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 2: do various tasks for it. 42 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 43 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, was that because you know, was money tight in 44 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: the household? What were your parents doing basically? 45 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean when he was tight. When I was young. 46 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: My father left school at fourteen or fifteen because he 47 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: had to look after his mother and his younger brother, 48 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: so he didn't We didn't come from any money. And 49 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: mum's dad worked for the Ministry of Works, so they 50 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: didn't come from any money, and I think money was 51 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: generally tighter than anyway for many people. They got pretty 52 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: comfortable as dad's career moved on, but that was largely 53 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: after my sister and I had left home, and so 54 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 2: they ended up comfortably retired. But we didn't have great 55 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: deal of money. We were late to get a TV, 56 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: we were late to get a car. All those kind 57 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: of material things were quite quite a struggle for us. 58 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 59 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean people I talk too often recall those 60 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: times as being, you know, New Zealand was sort of 61 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: nominally wealthy but at the same time were sort of 62 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: egalitarian and sort of not having that much around the household. 63 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: Did it feel like a sort of normal sort of household. 64 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: I mean, there wasn't wild differences between the. 65 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: Kids you knew who were wealthy in yourselves in not 66 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,399 Speaker 2: in Upper Hut, and I mean we were relative. While 67 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: I'm not saying we went well off, you know, there 68 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: was no real wealth around, and there was certainly one 69 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: was aware of kids more probably at the rugby club 70 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: than at school. At the rugby club, which was the 71 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: much bigger focus of life than school. There were certainly 72 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 2: aware of the differences, and obviously ethnic differences as well. 73 00:03:59,440 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 74 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: Sure, So what sort of I mean, not to hassle 75 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: you for your age exactly, but what sort of era 76 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: are we talking here? 77 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: I was born in nineteen fifty one, so we're talking 78 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: about the nineteen fifties, early six. 79 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: Fifties and fifties and sixties, which often is seen as 80 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: a sort of a golden era for the New zeal 81 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: On economy. I guess there was. 82 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a lot of nostalgia in that. 83 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: I don't think it was easy for many people at all, 84 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: and certainly for working class people and for people in 85 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 2: the rural areas that were on something of a downturn 86 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: over those years, particularly from Mali living in rural areas. 87 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: You know, it's a little bit romanticized just quite how 88 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: good it was. But you know, there was certainly perhaps 89 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 2: a great unity of society, particularly park Our society at 90 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 2: that time than there is now. 91 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Jumping back to that money in your hand, did 92 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: you have things that you had your eye on that 93 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: you're passionate about spending any pocket money on, or any 94 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: of those coins on, or was it just off to 95 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: the dairy, which is an answer I get from a 96 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: people as well. 97 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely the dairy. 98 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And sort of after that, After the dairy, 99 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: it was comics. I was pretty keen on Western comics 100 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 2: or war comics. They were the kind of the next destination. 101 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 2: As I matured, you keep them. They probably are worth 102 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: a fortune now to kick them. 103 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:26,119 Speaker 1: Well gone, all right? And how were you at school? 104 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: Were you an academic kid? Did you have a passion 105 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: for certain subjects that might have suggested where you were 106 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: going to go? I guess career wise. 107 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 2: Look, I was on the on the brighter side amongst 108 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 2: the kids at school, and I took a bit of 109 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: a dive when we got introduced to fractions because I 110 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 2: had bad eyesight and no one had realized it till 111 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 2: that time, and I couldn't see what was on the blackboard. 112 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 2: I came right once I went and got a pair 113 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: of glasses. But yeah, I was. I was reasonably adept 114 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 2: at school. 115 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so it was sort of like being able 116 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: to handle a bit of maths and leading into the economics. 117 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: Is that sort of would you say that you sort 118 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: of had an aptitude for that? 119 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 2: Look, my maths was never particularly strong. To be honest, 120 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 2: I don't want to hood up to criticism of anything 121 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 2: to say about econometric matters. But my math was never 122 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 2: really my strong point. 123 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 3: I could. 124 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: You know I was in that category. I think a 125 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 2: property investor much later in my career once said to me, 126 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 2: you should stick to property. Wrong. All you need to 127 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 2: do is be able to add and multiply. You don't 128 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: need anything else. Yeah, and he was pretty good at multiplying, 129 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 2: this particular guy. But no, you know, basic basic maths 130 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 2: I was all right at, but probably I was better 131 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: verbally and writing than I was. 132 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, I did sort of the idea of you know, 133 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: financial security and money drive your decisions at school later 134 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: at high school, and things around what you wanted to do. 135 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: At that time. 136 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: Well, we were a pretty conservative family by background, so yes, 137 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 2: I think that I probably had quite high aspirations for 138 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 2: security at that time and even up until probably my 139 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 2: last year at school. 140 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: Going into university. 141 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: When you know, if you unless you were comatose in 142 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: the late nineteen sixties, you were going to be exposed 143 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: to some quite radicalizing influence amongst young people. And I was, 144 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: and you know, I moved into what I might call 145 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: a rejectionist phase in my life. 146 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: Well, at school, did you do a bit of economics 147 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: at school? Was that what led to the doing it 148 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: at university? 149 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 3: No, No, not at all. 150 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: Was There wasn't such a thing as ever, right, ye 151 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: at school when I was there, you know, the current 152 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: ministry of education would have loved it. It was pretty traditional, 153 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: start right, reading right, that kind of thing. So and Rugby, 154 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: of course that was the other r. So it was 155 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: only at university that I got into economics. And you 156 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: know that was almost accidentally, to be honest. 157 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that, as you say, that was a fairly 158 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: radical time politically through the universities that the economics itself 159 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: probably was the height of the Kensian kind of thinking, 160 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: was it? You know it was it all that kind 161 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: of stuff that you were seeing. 162 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, Victoria University was kind of a hotbed of Keensianism, 163 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: if there can be such a thing. My learning in 164 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 2: economics was dominated by economic history rather than economics itself, 165 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 2: so it was the study of economic thought and the 166 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: study of events through history, economic events through history. So 167 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 2: I kind of came at it at a sort of 168 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: a tangent to some extent. 169 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And you know you've talked about this before 170 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: you Actually, I guess you know, what's the right word. 171 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: You kind of did become a bit of a hippie 172 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: at the time. You were anti establishment. There was some 173 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: involvement with the Anarchist Collective and all that sort of stuff. 174 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I was in that university life, and 175 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 2: I was involved with Resistance Bookshop, which was, you know, 176 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: a socialist anarchist kind of bookshop, and with pretty much 177 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 2: most of the causes which you know, of anti war 178 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 2: and anti racism that were at the time. And regrettably, 179 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: here we are fifty years or so later, still dealing 180 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 2: with the same issues, so we weren't particularly successful. But 181 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: I certainly got involved with all of those issues and 182 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 2: was heavily influenced by them. 183 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: Yeah did you, I mean, did you take an economic 184 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: lens to them through the study. 185 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. 186 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: Look, I became reasonably academic at that stage of my life, 187 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 2: so I was reading radical left wing material from around 188 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: the world during that time, trying to reconcile the street 189 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 2: activism with the academic work. And it was an era 190 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 2: when you know, people who were doing that, we're leading, 191 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: We're reading things like the New Left Reviewer and others, 192 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 2: and you know, I was involved with importing some of 193 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: that material, funnily enough, in conjunction with Jaris de Bress, 194 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 2: who later became a race relations conciliator and a very 195 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: prominent career in human rights. So we had a little 196 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 2: importing book operation that we ran not for profit, but 197 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 2: to spread the ideas. 198 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: Yea. And so you know what was the leap into 199 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: I guess a mainstream career. Trade unionism was I guess, 200 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: a bridge there to sort of a career and a 201 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: job that could actually pay the bills for you and things. 202 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: No, I had a job at Victoria than at Messi 203 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: University in the economics departments, and I was attracted away 204 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: from that by unionists that I met in the Andy 205 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: War and ady racism. 206 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: So you could have gone a more academic route. 207 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: Ah, Yeah, that was certainly my intention at the time. 208 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 2: And you know, I got attracted away by the opportunity 209 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 2: to work more closely with unions, and you know, spent 210 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: quite a decade or so doing that sort of work. 211 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: One of the questions I always ask on this podcast 212 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: is what's the poorest you've ever been? And the answer 213 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: is often the student years. But was that time, you know, 214 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: were you living, you know, a sort of a pretty 215 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: spartan existence at that time. 216 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: Does it go with the ideology A look, it was 217 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: reasonably spartan in the student years, but it kind of 218 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 2: should be in a way. 219 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 3: You know, our fees were being paid. 220 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: And I was lucky enough to actually get a scholarship 221 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: from the if I can say this on your podcast, 222 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 2: from the Wellington Publishing company right, because I thought I 223 00:11:54,880 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 2: might be a journalist and I got the scholarship. It 224 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 2: can't have been very hardly competed for, but anyway, I 225 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,719 Speaker 2: got the scholarship and then it was in a demonstration 226 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 2: outside the publishing companies officers because of something that had 227 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 2: written or said, and they decided they didn't want me 228 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: to come and work in the holidays, but they couldn't 229 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: take the scholarship off me. 230 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 3: So I got the best of both worlds. 231 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: But journalism wasn't for you. It turned out not to 232 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 1: be that well though you're at you're in print a 233 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: little bit these days that were. 234 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 2: Well, I am, but you know, so I didn't ever 235 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: you know, then I was at elector at university, which 236 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: was comfortable enough for a young person. And then when 237 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 2: I worked as a trade union official. I didn't start 238 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: in the Drivers Union, but I segued. 239 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 3: Into the Drivers Union, and the Drivers Union I. 240 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 2: Was paid at the top rate and the Driver's award 241 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 2: on a sixty hour week, that was the pay. So 242 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 2: it was it was not we weren't going to get 243 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: rich on it. 244 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: No, but you obviously thrived in that role on that 245 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: path because I recall as a child that you already 246 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: were quite sort of prominent as a kind of a 247 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: spokesperson for the union, and you'd feature on the late 248 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: night news on these sort of serious current affairs debates 249 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: and things that we used to have in those days, 250 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: and so that was sort of probably the first step 251 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: into the public eye, I guess, was it. 252 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. The union movement at the time was obviously. 253 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: At least apparently very strong, was very much part of 254 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: what we now call civil society, so it was involved 255 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: in all of those debates, and. 256 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 3: You know, to be fair, the. 257 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 2: People that made up most of the Trajani your leadership 258 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: came from a very working class background, weren't necessarily all 259 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 2: that adept at economic debate and those kinds of things. 260 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 2: So I was often pushed forward into that and was 261 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 2: happy to be able to advance the cause. And I 262 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: think it's great, incidentally, that I see more recently because 263 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 2: the Union's kind of faded out of that sort of 264 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: society economic debate, and it's been fantastic to see in 265 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: recent years people like Craig Greenny and others within the 266 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 2: union movement becoming part of that debate again and giving 267 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,479 Speaker 2: a voice to that perspective. 268 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, well, we'll come back round to that. But 269 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:19,479 Speaker 1: I guess in between, you know, you had this incredible 270 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: career in the private sector, So can you just run 271 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: me through a sort of a highlights version of how 272 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: you made the transition from the union movement too, I guess, 273 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, into the likes of telecom and so forth. 274 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I never planned to do it. So at the 275 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 2: time of the Longy government, you may recall, or maybe 276 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: aware from reading history in your case there, that there 277 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: was quite a bit of economic debate going on, and 278 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: I was involved in that from the union perspective. But 279 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: I guess I did see the need for economic chain 280 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: as well as social change at the time, and my 281 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 2: view at the time was that there should have been 282 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: a much closer accommodation between the union movement and the 283 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: political movement of labor and that the unions had the 284 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: opportunity to mold that change. In the end, that wasn't 285 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: the dominant view in the unions. It was regarded I 286 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 2: was regarded as a conservative view. 287 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 3: That there were. 288 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: People who agreed with me, but meant many who didn't. Obviously, equally, 289 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 2: some of the leadership of the Labor Party, without naming 290 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 2: any name, just completely trashed that point of view. 291 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: Roger Douglas has been on this podcast. 292 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so he would be a prominent person in 293 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: that in that respect. 294 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, why it. 295 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: Got completely trashed as an idea, And you know, I 296 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: was very disheartened at the time and decided, look, this 297 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: isn't working. 298 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 3: And I don't really know what my role as now. 299 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: There are two things about that which I felt at 300 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: the time, but even more in reflection. One was that 301 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 2: it did reflect that I didn't come from a working 302 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: class background myself, and so I wasn't as embedded in 303 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 2: that movement as others. So it probably made it me 304 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 2: more shaky. And I've had that criticism from union colleagues 305 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: and I understand it and it's certainly true. But I 306 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: think the kind of second thing was that I had 307 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: become quite emotionally and otherwise psychologically tired of a lot 308 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: that was going on at the time, and I simply 309 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 2: needed respite from it at any event, at a personal level. 310 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: So when I decided I wasn't going to be a 311 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: union officially anymore, various offers started to come in, some 312 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: from the government and some from the privacy as to 313 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: other roles I could play, And because they were intellectually interesting, 314 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: that old academic thing was still there. I was attracted 315 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: into those largely because they were intellectually interesting challenges. 316 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: And did you feel you know, there was kind of 317 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: a wave of must have been quite exciting in a way, 318 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: a wave of opening up of New Zealand and all 319 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: the business, you know, really thriving as the old sort 320 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: of economic model fell away. Were you sort of swept 321 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: up on that a bit? 322 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 2: Well, it was I don't know who swept up in it. 323 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 3: I was here. I was coming out of. 324 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 2: The labor movement in quite a prominent position and very 325 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 2: committed to it. So I was very aware of all 326 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: the contradictions that were in that, but certainly there was 327 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 2: plenty of change going on to get your teeth into 328 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: and try and understand. 329 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you ended up on the telecom board, was 330 00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 1: that right? 331 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 2: No, not on the telecomboard, but on a range of 332 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: other boards, from the Bank of New Zealand, on the 333 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: establishment board of the post office. You know, you name 334 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 2: a disaster. I was there at some stage of the 335 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: last fifty years. 336 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I guess bring it back to money and things, 337 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: you know, like so that was there a point at 338 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: which you sort of went, oh, you know, you're in 339 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: the business world now you realize that, you know, there 340 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: was a financial upside to it, that you were feeling 341 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: more comfortable financially than your head previously, all that sort 342 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: of stuff. 343 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: I look, undoubtedly, you know, over the period of my 344 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 2: business life, through. 345 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 3: Largely through fees and. 346 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: Rates pay that I had, you know, I was able 347 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 2: to accumulate what for many people would be, you know, 348 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: a reasonable amount of wealth. I also made a few 349 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 2: mistakes which got rid of odd bits of it, but no, 350 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 2: no doubt, I mean I became a lot more well 351 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: off economically than I would have been had I stayed 352 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 2: in the trade unions. Wasn't why I did it, But 353 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: you'd be an idiot to say you didn't do it. 354 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean one of the questions we ask as 355 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: well as the poorest you've ever been, is what would 356 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: be the most indulgent purchase you ever made? Something? I 357 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: mean you usually we're getting at something you might have 358 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: done for far nor for just this year, hell of it. 359 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: The most indulgent purchases I've made have probably been works 360 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: of art that hang on the wall, which were bought 361 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: for numbers that I would never have contemplated when I 362 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: was younger, but which you know, we own because they 363 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 2: give us pleasure rather than because there worth a lot 364 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 2: of money. But sometimes if I think about what we 365 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: paid for them, it's indulgent. 366 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: You're sort of passionate about New Zealand art. 367 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: Passionate it's a bit strong for me. No, I think 368 00:19:54,840 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: that I am very fond of New Zealand art, and I. 369 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 3: Think that there's a distinctive New Zealand And art. 370 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: Movement in set of capabilities that are really important. I've 371 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: reflected on that. But recently the art that I thought 372 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: was reflecting an authentic New Zealand voice was actually and 373 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 2: still does reflect a parkiher appreciation of ot A pakiher 374 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: observance of this country, rather than be the real culture 375 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: I was at an art opening actually on Friday Nightly 376 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: and where a young Marty woman was talking to me 377 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: and she said, it's really interesting presentation this, but all 378 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: the Murray's are on the wall and not in the room. 379 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: And it was a verys dute observation. I think it's 380 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of our artists about unfortunately, 381 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: but that's changing. 382 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you, I mean, you up. You know, one of 383 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: our most high profile company directors, big company, SkyCity Tourism Holdings, 384 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: someone Set Holding's, Guinness Peak Group was a really high 385 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: profile investor for a long time. Obviously you had skills 386 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: to bear there, I mean, you know, I'm just interested 387 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: in how you see the connection between managing personal wealth 388 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: and personal finance with what you do on a corporate board. 389 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: Are they Are they different skills? 390 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think they're very different skills. 391 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: And actually I was quite a lot better at doing 392 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 2: the corporate stuff than my own finances. I don't even 393 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: this is an old fashioned statement, but I don't even 394 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 2: run my own checkbook. No one runs a checkbook now, 395 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: but you know what I mean. So the corporate management 396 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 2: and creation of wealth was something that I think I 397 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 2: do have, did have and still do have some aptitude 398 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 2: for understanding what the economic model is that make something 399 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: work is both intellectually interesting and important for boards. And 400 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 2: I think too often, and I made this public criticism before, 401 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: too often people are appointed to boards who either aren't 402 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: capable of or are not willing to really understand the 403 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 2: business model that they're talking about. And I think it's 404 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 2: one of the reasons why we have business failures that 405 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 2: not enough thoughts has put into what is this model, 406 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: why does it work? What factors might make it not work, 407 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: rather than the kind of the constant new bits of 408 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: paper that come before you and compliance issues, all of 409 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 2: which have importance but won't save a business, and we 410 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: end up in New Zealand, I think, and I've been 411 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 2: part of this in many ways, you know, perfectly governing 412 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 2: a business as it goes over a cliff. 413 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, I mean you've obviously got to have 414 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: a passion and throw yourself into the business. And it's just, 415 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: I guess strikes me that it's different than you. You know, 416 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: you'll know people who have a passion for building their 417 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: own wealth, you know, for whatever reason, and so you've 418 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: never really had that drive to just focus on maximizing 419 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: every dollar of your own personal wealth in that sort 420 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: of way. 421 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 2: No, No, I haven't, and I don't hold that out 422 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 2: as anything good, bad, or and different, just as what 423 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 2: it is. 424 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: Some people are just I mean, yeah, I'm same. I'm 425 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: not really judging. It's just I noticed some people have 426 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: that sort of passionate interest in doing that, and other 427 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 1: people like, well, I've got enough money. I'm just going 428 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: to focus on what I'm interested. 429 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I was doing perfectly well and there 430 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: was absolutely no need to do more than that. But 431 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 2: it's interesting. I mean, those people who are driven primarily 432 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 2: by their own wealth are not necessarily any worse than 433 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: anyone else. It's hard to explain to socialists friends, They're 434 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 2: not actually any worse than anyone else. They are simply 435 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: applying the dictates of a system more effectively than many. 436 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 2: Some of them are absolute pricks. Incidentally, if I can 437 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 2: say that on here, they are, but not all of them. 438 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: And you'll find the absolute pricks everywhere as well. 439 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: There's a reasonably even distributions across various parts of life. 440 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 3: That's true. 441 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, reflecting on having been that outspoken through the career, 442 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: were there ever times where you kind of regret and 443 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: we talked about ta Fata or times where you think, well, 444 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: maybe I should have ranged it in that time. 445 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 2: Oh, look, lots lots of times not on to Far 446 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 2: to Wara. I stand by everything that I said, and indeed, 447 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 2: within a few months what I said about three waters 448 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: became Labor Party policy. So no point in regretting that. 449 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: I do regret not being part of the ongoing to 450 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 2: Far to Worra journey, but amazingly I'm still involved with 451 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 2: quite a lot of those debates, and in fact, this 452 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 2: week I'm involved in two conferences where I'm still contributing 453 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 2: to the debates about health policy. 454 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 3: So no, I don't regret. 455 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: That having been I guess slightly burned by that sort 456 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: of government involvement and is it off the table? Would 457 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: you work with governments again on those kind of big initiatives. 458 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 3: I'd certainly, I'd love to, but not. 459 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: If they thought in engaging me they were engaging a 460 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 2: public servant who was just going to tow the line 461 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: and sort of nod whenever they said. 462 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 3: So. 463 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: If I got the opportunity to contribute to government in 464 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 2: a way that was honest and open, yes I would, 465 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 2: but I wouldn't take on one of the existing jobs, 466 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: and I'm not going to be offered one. 467 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: Let me ask, do you you ever imagine winning lotto? 468 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: Do you buy lotto tickets? I don't buy lotto tickets. 469 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: I don't like the odds. 470 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 2: Messes at least that could Well, you've got to remember 471 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: I've cheered a casino as well, so I know who 472 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 2: wins games with gambling. 473 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, but actually I suppose at least the odds are 474 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: fairly well marked on that. 475 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 2: Well, the odds are better up the raid at sky 476 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: City without being an advertisement for them. But just I'm 477 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 2: pretty sure I could say that every game in a 478 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 2: casino is better odds than the lotto. 479 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, in the last year or two, I 480 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,479 Speaker 1: guess it might be fair to say you've stepped back 481 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: from the big boards. Has that given you a bit 482 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: more freedom to say what you think? 483 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 3: I mean? 484 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,239 Speaker 1: I know there was a bit of controversy in the 485 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: health scenario because you know, you were on a board 486 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: and spoke out. But beyond that, do you feel more 487 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: freed up to sort of say what you think about 488 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: the world? 489 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 3: Now? Well? 490 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 2: I do, I do since losing the tifat or role. 491 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: But frankly, i'd kind of decided to move on from 492 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 2: the large corporate world anyway, and did stop a number 493 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 2: of roles in order to take on the Tafat role. 494 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 3: You know, I was actually. 495 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 2: Pretty outspoken for a business person when I was fully 496 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 2: immersed in the private sector and in governance. I didn't 497 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 2: hold back talking about the things that were important as 498 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 2: I saw them at the time in business. So I 499 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 2: don't know that I've actually changed all that much. I've 500 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 2: just got a bit more time to be mischievous. 501 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 3: Now, yeah. 502 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I recall in those times too, they would 503 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: often ruffle a few feathers. I mean, how did some 504 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: of those columns and statements that you made when you 505 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: were right in the thick of the corporate we will 506 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: go down with all the colleagues. 507 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: Well, obviously they didn't. They didn't like it very much. 508 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 2: But you know, I think there was a respect for 509 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 2: my ability to do the corporate job that we were 510 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 2: doing that ran alongside of it. 511 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 3: So most people. 512 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 2: One prominent business person when I took on the fato 513 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: Aura job, actually right at the start, very preciently said 514 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 2: to me, you may think we're bustards, rob but we 515 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 2: won't throw you under a bus the way these guys 516 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: will right, and. 517 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 3: You know he was right. 518 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you are quite outspoken about addressing social 519 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: inequality and those things, particularly for someone who's come from 520 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: that corporate background. But I guess there's all you know, 521 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: the Marxist roots and all that sort of stuff. You 522 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: know what, now, when you look at it and you 523 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: look at the inequality in society, what do you think 524 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: it would be the biggest or the biggest drivers of 525 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: why some people are poor and why some people are rich. 526 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think it at the risk of sounding Marxist again, 527 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: and I don't mind being called a Marxist. I regard 528 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: that as a badge of honor. Really, I'd rather be 529 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 2: a Marxist than a Freedman night, if you take those 530 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 2: two extremes. But the system we have is one that 531 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:20,479 Speaker 2: relies on, frankly, exploitation, exploitation of resources and exploitation of people, 532 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 2: and that produces many advances. It has done many good 533 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 2: things in society materially, but it does inevitably produce a 534 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 2: situation where there is an equality, and not just an equality, 535 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: but the people at the bottom are subject to severe problems. 536 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: And you know that happens not only within an economy 537 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: like New Zealand's But it happens between this economy and 538 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: you know, other countries. And the classic is the people 539 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 2: in a copper mine or some other kind of are 540 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 2: earth mine in a third world country being exploited for 541 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 2: the phones that we use and the cars that we drive, etc. 542 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 3: So that. 543 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: Is in the nature of the economic system that has 544 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: conquered the world. And I think what disturbs me most 545 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: at the moment is that we are clearly nearing the 546 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 2: end of what some of that could do in terms 547 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 2: not just of resources, but in terms of pollution and 548 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 2: the damage that has been caused to the natural environment 549 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: and the damage that's been caused to people. And we 550 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 2: should be taking note of that. And it's beyond my 551 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: capability to devise the new system, but I think it's 552 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 2: pretty obvious that unless we find some better way to 553 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 2: organize economic things, we are headed for a huge descers. 554 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I mean not to put you on the spot, 555 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: but another question I like to ask is if I 556 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: could make your prime Minister for the day and you 557 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: could change maybe one big low. Is there something you 558 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: would target from a New Zealand perspective to make some change? 559 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: You know, where would you be focused. 560 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 2: If I was Prime Minister for a day, I would 561 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 2: tell David Seymour and Winston to go and take a 562 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 2: running jump and give Chloe Swarbrick a call. 563 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you she's got enough economic nouse. 564 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: To I'm sure she's got enough economic now. So I 565 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 2: think there are certainly people within the Labor Party too 566 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 2: who understand that general proposition that I've just made that 567 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 2: if we don't make significant changes, and we don't change 568 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 2: the direction of our economic structure and life, then we're 569 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: headed for a major disaster. I don't think the current 570 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: Prime Minister will do that, but if I was, if 571 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 2: I was put in a seat, that's what I would do, 572 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 2: because for all the faults of business, we have to 573 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 2: find a way to take business with us. We have 574 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 2: to find a way to take people with us and 575 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 2: the change that we're going to need. So you know, frankly, 576 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,719 Speaker 2: if the current government doesn't head in that direction, then 577 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 2: it'll just join the dustbin of history. 578 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: Basically, Wow, I'm going to wrap it up here, but 579 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: I just thought i'd ask what's keeping you busy right now? 580 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: What are you passionate about right now? 581 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 2: I'm really passionate about aut the university of opportunity. A 582 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 2: university of equity I think is just so important in 583 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: New Zealand. That's something that we're building there. I'm a 584 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 2: very small part of it, but I happen to have 585 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 2: a titular a role there, a very small partner that 586 00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: occupies a lot of not just time but thought. Very 587 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 2: interested from a commercial point of view in what we're 588 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,719 Speaker 2: doing in rural land with the company I'm involved with there. 589 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 2: I'm very interested in what we're doing at our AK 590 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: and energy innovation so that it's not bad for an 591 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: old guy. And I also like the engagement that I 592 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 2: increasingly have with young activists social activists around the city 593 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 2: who can see some value in what this old guy's 594 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 2: got to say and I can hopefully help them realize 595 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: some of their dreams. 596 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: So it sounds like you're heating back into the more 597 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: activist world. 598 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I'm probably not, probably not much used to them, 599 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 2: but I think it's a time for activism. If ever 600 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 2: there was a time for activism, it feels to me 601 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: like the late nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies, where, to 602 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: take that old phrase, you know, if you're not part 603 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 2: of the solution, you're part of the problem, something that 604 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: has to happen, you might as well. 605 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 3: Be part of the solution. 606 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Rob, Thank you very much, Cheers, Thank you. Thanks 607 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: for listening to this episode of Money Talks. If you 608 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: want to get in touch, drop me a line at 609 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: Liam dot Dan at inzme dot co dot nz and 610 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: you can read more from me at inzidherld dot co 611 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 1: dot nz. Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound 612 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: engineer Liann McDonald. Follow Money Talks on iHeartRadio or wherever 613 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, with new episodes available every Thursday.