WEBVTT - Tech skills - upgrade now or fall behind 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:07.400 Our tech sector is undoubtedly one of the fastest growing 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.880 areas off our economy and exporting powerhouse and yielding high 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.159 salaries for those employed in it. So do we have 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:20.160 the talent and skills pipeline to support its growth? Well, Nope, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.880 not even close. I'm Peter Griffin and on this week's 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.160 episode if the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business, 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:29.680 we're looking at one of the biggest issues facing the 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:33.680 tech sector, an urgent need to rapidly upskill the workforce 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:38.199 and technologies like artificial intelligence, just as our best and 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:42.879 brightest head for the exits seeking greener pastures overseas. My 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.920 guest on the pod this week is Craig Young, the 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:50.680 long serving CEO of Two Hands, the Technology Uses Association 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:54.520 of New Zealand, a member's based advocacy body that has 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.400 done great work over the years on behalf of consumers 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.120 on everything from breaking up telecoms monopoly to pushing for 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:07.399 greater digital inclusion. Two and recently published its annual Digital 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.720 Priorities Report, which rounds up the views of dozens of 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.640 tech leaders looking at what we need to do in 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:17.040 the tech and digital space to really advance our aims 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.120 as a nation. It's they're a pretty frustrated bunch, with 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.560 no digital strategy or even a clear roadmap for the 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:28.360 country's approach to AI. There's a sense in the report 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.040 that we're drifting along while other countries like Australia get 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:36.440 dead serious about the opportunities and the risks that technology pose. 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.080 But the most pressing issue is the tech skills gap. 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:45.319 The government is currently revamping its approach to apprenticeships, internships 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:49.440 and the like what's known as vocational education. It has 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.680 a plan to create a group of industry skills boards. 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.560 But where do tech and the creative economy fit in 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:01.960 while bundled in with manufacturing. That's not good enough, says Craig, 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.160 who wants to see finally a dedicated skills push for 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.440 the knowledge economy industries. The government claims to want to 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.680 double exports from over the next ten years. So here's 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:23.360 the interview with Two Hands CEO Craig Young. Craig Young, 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:25.840 Welcome to the Business of Tech. How are you doing, Craig, 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.360 I'm doing well. Thank you, Peter Kyodor and thank you 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:30.680 for having me. Yeah, great to have you on. Been 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:32.280 meaning to have you on the show because you're doing 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.720 such great work. With Two Hands, an organization that's been 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.600 around in New Zealand for a long time. I remember 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:42.639 as a cadet reporter Ernie Newman was the head of 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.960 Two Hands, a long serving chief executive, always had a 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.080 great turn of phrase and real advocate for consumers. But 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.560 just give us a little bit of background about Two 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:56.440 Hands and the evolution of the organization over the years. 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.760 You've been CEO, nowfare what coming up on ten years? 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.160 Right, Peter? Ten years and I really can't believe where 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.480 that time's gone because every year is so different. You know, 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.040 we've been through quite a lot during that time as well. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.800 I too remember the earning Newman days. I've been around 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:13.840 for a while as well. I wasn't quite a cadet, 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:17.919 but yeah, and he did a good twelve years as 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:22.239 the CEO. And I've learned over time looking at other 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.120 organizations like this, you do tend to see the ones 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.720 that make the most impact, where the leader hangs around 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.200 for a little while. You know, we were the Taic 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:35.040 Communications Users Association and in those days when the nineties 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.480 and early two thousands, there was a lot of issue 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:42.200 in MAHI that needed to be done for users across 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:46.280 the board from individuals right through to corporates, and we 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:51.600 saw the you know, significant changes that occurred, and we 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:53.680 sort of got to the point of when I started 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.520 where we had probably won that battle, maybe not the 0:03:57.560 --> 0:03:59.400 overall war, if you want to put it that way, 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.960 but when that batt also we had to sort of 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.320 reshape and refigure. And it's why in twenty twenty we 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:07.680 changed the tar in our name to technology because we 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:11.920 recognized that there wasn't a user group for the broader 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:17.240 tech space. But also telecommunications had morphed, had morphed in 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.560 a big way to being much more than just you know, 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:22.359 making phone calls and text messages. 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.680 Yeah, and you did, you know, I think you were 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:29.039 integral in the early days to actually winning that war 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:36.240 around structural separation of telecom into Chorus and Spark. You know, 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.919 the work that two ADS did advocating for the consumer 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.680 was absolutely integral to that. So I think kiwi's a 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.800 debt of gratitude to two Ads, As you say, it's 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.720 become a broader remit now and it's really encapsulated. Every 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.919 year you do this Digital Priorities Report, and it's just 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.960 been published Digital Priorities in twenty twenty five and I've 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.120 got to say, I consider get a sense of frustration. 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.760 This report is based on surveys and interviews with thirty 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:15.080 six CIOs, chief information officers and chief technology officers. Some 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.000 big names in there. If you flick through the report 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.279 and you're around the tech sector, you'll know some of 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.560 these people. They're really smart people, and I just get 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.480 a sense reading it that they're frustrated at some of 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:29.800 the issues that we face in the lack of progress 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.240 in the digital space. There are some strengths in there, 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.720 and maybe let's start on a positive note, you know, 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.120 in terms of where we're at in terms of our 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:42.320 digital infrastructure, our digital economy, the digital space in New Zealand. 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.240 What are our strengths at the moment in your eyes. 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.839 That's a really good question, Peter, And you're right about 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:50.279 the feeling that comes through. But there is some positiveness, 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.880 You're absolutely right, and I think it's more frustration that 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.960 we haven't made the most of what we've got. And certainly, 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:01.440 you know the structural separation of course on a telecom 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.440 the interesting just in a side there. I was actually 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:06.960 at chorus during that time, so you know, New Zealand 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:08.719 is a small place, so you move from one side 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:13.039 to the other, but absolutely believe in that the cio CTOs. 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.640 You know, there is some really amazing things happening in 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.279 New Zealand and the technology space, and they're really keen 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:23.320 to utilize New Zealand technology. The growth of high speed 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:27.640 broadband is you know, obviously a key underpinning to so 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:32.599 many things that gets done, and we see businesses taking 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.440 up those services, you know, more and more, where as 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.800 individuals were very quick to take it up, particularly during COVID, 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.520 you know, when we wanted to stream so much TV. 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.159 But you know, we're seeing different things being used. You know, 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:50.040 the difference between when I started and now on international cables, 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.400 the number of cables that we have coming into New Zealand, 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.040 so our connections to the world is so much better 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.240 and we see more of those occurring as well. So 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:02.040 you know, there is some real good things about our infrastructure. 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.080 We might be the last bus stop before Antarctica, but 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.279 we really do have great connectivity to the rest of 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.880 the world and inside our nation. Five GM mobile networks 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:13.920 and we're going to see some upgrades to those later 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:18.360 in the year when they all build their what's called 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:23.000 a standalone core so that's the core of the network 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.440 will be upgraded to five G and they'll be able 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.920 to provide some extra services that will be amazing for us. 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.360 We've done some amazing things in rural we shouldn't we 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.320 shouldn't you know, step back from some of the stuff 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.600 that's been done with the wireless ISPs, with the RCG. 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:43.240 You know, the idea of sharing infrastructure is so important 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.600 when it comes to the further out you get from urban. 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:49.760 So you know, it's easy sometimes to think about the 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.080 things we don't have, but we do have quite a lot, 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.320 and we have some very smart people. We just don't 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.600 have enough of them. Yeah, so there are some possibles. 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:02.280 And look, one of the interesting things was after writing 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.800 the report, obviously you do get sort of focused in 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.880 on what you think should happen next. And one of 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.560 our speakers at our recent event decided to ask is 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:15.360 AI tool you know, can you tell me what the 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.720 sense of positivity is from this report? It actually came 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:21.400 about at six out of ten, So it's not a 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:25.880 completely negative report. It's slightly positive. And when you talk 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.600 to the CEOs etc. About their perspective on where we 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:31.480 sit in the world, they do put us at about 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:35.200 a sex out of ten, so not all dream and gloom. 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.599 Yeah, and as you mentioned in there, things like, you know, 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:43.120 we've got pretty good e commerce legislation, online banking access, 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.040 although you were a little bit behind on the open 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:50.439 banking front, and it's something your predecessor, Ernie Newman is 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.959 still sort of talking about, you know, the competitive issues 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:56.920 that we have. But you know, there are some positives 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:00.560 there in terms of the challenges and the opportun unities 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.080 that we face. You know, they're pretty clear in there. 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.840 You talk about escalating cybersecurity risks and a bit of 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:12.120 complacency or under resourcing in that space, the persistent tech 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:16.719 talent gap, and we'll talk in more detail about that. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:20.000 Digital inclusion is still not where it needs to be 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.880 in terms of resourcing and progress we're making on that. 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:27.240 But there was something more fundamental, I think underpinning at all, 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:31.760 which is really a lack of visible strategic government leadership 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:33.599 in the digital space. And I've been talking to a 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.880 lot of people about that. We've had a change of government, 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:41.319 but we are look eighteen months into this new government. 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:45.640 They've done some things in the innovation space, big shake 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.679 up underway, but let's face it, we still don't have 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:50.960 a national digital strategy, do we. 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.200 So look, I think you're right, Peter, we don't have 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:56.319 a national digital strategy, even though the government has talked 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:58.920 it up and certainly when they were in opposition they 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:03.600 were absolutely committed to using digital technology as a key 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.559 growth platform. I think, you know, we'll give them some 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.040 some we'll let off a little bit. They did a 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:13.960 lot of shifting and changing last year, but unfortunately that's 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:18.480 led to changes in their ministerial portfolios. But also I 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.280 understand that it's not quite clear on who's taking ownership 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:25.319 of digital transformation within government. It's just a bit too 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.400 spread out. I think the other thing is we haven't 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:30.480 seen a strategy for the use of AI, and we 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.400 certainly know that it's a big topic of discussion aroundst 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:39.000 MPs ministers and also on the security side. You know, 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.480 the thing that we're looking for is not necessarily some great, big, 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.960 long document, but it is something where government takes leadership. 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:50.079 There's such a big part of our economy, of our 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:54.800 population and what they do with just even everyday individuals. 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:57.880 Having some sense of a direction that they want the 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.319 nation to go in I think is really important. 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.720 Yeah, yeah, that sort of leads me to my question, 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:07.840 what would an effect of strategy look like in your view? 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.240 What are some of the sort of first practical steps 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:12.360 that would need to happen. Obviously it has to be 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:18.000 government and industry and other stakeholders groups in society working together. 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.160 But you know, how do you start putting this together. 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.080 What's your sort of dream, sort of list of things 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.360 that could be got off the ground relatively quickly or 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:28.880 should be included in a strategy. 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.160 I think what we've got to be aware of and 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:35.440 quite clever around is the fact that technology moves so quickly, 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:40.760 and so you know, if we want to spend months 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:44.720 and months trying to work up a strategy developing regulation, 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.720 we're going to be left behind. And that is different 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.840 from the way government normally works. So we're quite clear 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.840 on that. You're absolutely right, it's got to be a collaborative. 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:59.480 It's going to be a collaborative approach government. You're actually 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:01.440 you know, we've talked about that they're a big part 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.400 of the economy. They take leadership, but we recognize, and 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.120 the digital leaders did as well, that they need to 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.240 be engaged and involved. And it's not just the technology 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:16.640 industry that will be our export base. But if we 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:21.080 want to grow our economy and grow productivity, then it's 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.360 the other businesses also that need to pick up digital 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.040 and do digital transformation. So I think that's the first 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:32.240 place is trying to get those perspectives together and come 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:37.520 up with some overriding direction, whether you want to call 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.480 it a vision or just a sense of direction, and 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:45.600 without getting to engage. I mean, the last government did 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.240 have a digital strategy, but it was quite a thick 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.800 document and they're basically done it them I wouldn't say 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.160 they've done it themselves. That's a bit unfair, but it 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.640 wasn't as collaborative as it could have been. And I 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:59.440 think what we need to do is something that will 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.080 be able to be flexible and live and change as 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:07.280 we go. Certainly, you know, if you talk three years ago, 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:09.440 we wouldn't have been talking about AI as much as 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.160 we're talking about it now. And it's just a classic 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.000 example of something that can just turn things upside down. 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:19.400 So you've got to be able to react and cope 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.280 to those sort of technology changes. You know, as well 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:26.360 as I repeted it, we see amazing technology, you know, 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.760 sort of coming and sometimes it takes a long time 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.560 to come and then suddenly it's here, and so you know, 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:35.600 you do have time to get ready for it, but 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.040 you probably don't you think that way, and then suddenly 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.520 you've got to do something. So it's not easy. I'm 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:44.640 not saying it's going to be easy to sit down 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.800 and do something like this, but it is a conversation 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.240 and a sense of direction that we really need. 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.440 Yeah, I think a lot of people in the tech 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.240 community viewed the fact that Judith Collins was having this 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:03.600 tech portfolio elevating the position off these sorts of issues, 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.240 had a bunch of portfolios that seemed to complement each other, 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.439 the digitizing government portfolio. But the reality is, and obviously 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:14.480 she's out of most of those portfolios now in favor 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:19.040 of Shane Retti, who's a very competent minister. But there's 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.040 a sense we've lost momentum. There's been a few random, 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.200 sort of individual initiatives, and look, we are in a 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.680 constrained time in terms of government putting money into new 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.560 initiatives like digital inclusion and that sort of thing. But 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.720 there's a sense halfway through this term that it's sort 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:36.520 of lost momentum. Will that be fair. 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:38.920 I think you're right, Peter, and it certainly comes through, 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.400 you know, a radious specific section in the report on 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.760 the reaction of CEOs etc. Two Government and we asked 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.760 them the specific question, We said, what have you seen 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.920 from this government? And that's where things like the invisible 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:59.320 government term came out. Disappointment I think as well. I 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.600 think you're right. There was a real excitement that we 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.520 could build on what had been done and that this 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.000 government was going to be really focused on. And look, 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:11.600 no disrespect to the ministers themselves, because they are very 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:16.560 you know, passionate and they are good people, but they 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.960 are loaded up. So Minister Collins was given you know, 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.080 a large number of portfolios and so not everything gets 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.880 the focus that it might necessarily deserve. So, you know, 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:32.680 on that basis, that's why I think we've said government 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:37.680 leadership is important, and the leaders that we've been talking 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.440 to are you know, saying there's a gap there. 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.080 Drilling down into some of the issues that you've identified. 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:47.760 A perennial one that comes up as cybersecurity risk. The 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:52.440 risks are escalating and AI is increasingly having a role 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:57.400 to play in that. Also in defense of cybersecurity, which 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:02.240 is great. But yeah, look everywhere every time I talk 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.040 to cio CTOs, they just sort of say, lookd A's 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:10.680 frustration within their own organizations around how seriously cybersecurity is taken. 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.640 What's sort of at the height of our reluctance to 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.480 as a nation and individually as businesses and consumers even 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:19.080 to really take this seriously. 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:20.840 I think there's a couple of things. And look, this 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:22.640 one is not going to go away as far as 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.480 I'm concerned. It's been you know, every one of the 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:27.440 five reports we've done, this has been one of them. 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:31.120 And it just keeps going. And you know, we could 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.080 look at the stats and talk to people anecdotally about 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.840 the challenges their face every day and they attack vectors 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:40.800 that they're saying every day, you know, just growing all 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:45.080 the time. And you talked about AI, the weaponization of AI. 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.480 You know, on both sides of the of the of this. 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:51.160 I think there's a couple of things that play into 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:55.280 New Zealand. One is, you know I talked about earlier, 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.800 we are well connected to the world. We are no 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.000 longer that large little country halfway around the world. We're 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:07.840 seen as an easy pick by some actors as not 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.879 necessary to get access to things in New Zealand, but 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.560 to get to go through us to other environments in 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:21.000 other countries. So that's disappointing obviously, But it's that she'll 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.959 be right attitude, I think particularly from individuals. You know, 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.520 I'm nobody, Why would it happen to me, Well, you 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.800 can be used to get access to somebody else, so 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:33.240 it may not be you, But we are just one. 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:38.200 We are part of the global population when it comes 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:42.159 to digital where microseconds from anywhere in the world. And 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.439 I think in the corporate space, you know, boards in 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:49.440 particular have been dealing with significant issues over the last 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:53.240 five ten years. Health and safety became a really big one, 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.359 and so maybe security sort of got pushed down the list. 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:01.120 And of course those sort of compliance issues, security issues 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:07.680 don't necessarily easily convert to ROI and revenue and profit 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:11.679 and all those sorts of things, and it's they're just 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:16.200 being over I don't know whether they're seeing it and going, well, 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.439 the risk isn't that great. Well, actually the risk is 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.280 pretty great, and most CTOs are the ones at the 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.679 forefront of that and trying to convince their boards. If 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:29.639 you don't take security seriously, you could end up being 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:34.359 someone like Marks and Spencers. In the UK, there's been 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.639 a couple of big occurrences over there that have I 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:39.720 think should be wake up. 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.439 Calls OPTUS In Australia that was the big one in 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:47.480 this part of the world, which led to legislation change 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:52.560 in terms of the penalties for data breaches, which has 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.600 been pointed to here. We have very low penalties ten 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:01.879 thousand dollars fine for Privacy Act breaches, so that is 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.160 an issue in terms of what the government is doing. 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.600 There was a lot of consternation about, you know, the 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:13.640 CERT Organization being folded into the National Center for Cybersecurity 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.640 in terms of, you know, what the government is doing 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:22.080 with the malware free networks and with CERT. What's your 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:26.080 sense on how prepared we are or how well resourced 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.560 we are as a nation to tackle some of these 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:32.919 big issues trying to identify and intercept these big threats, 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.800 whether they're cyber criminal, criminals trying to scam us, or 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.400 even some of the state based stuff trying to disrupt 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:41.440 us for geopolitical reasons. 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:44.480 Look, it's perennial, Christian Peter and I don't think we'd 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.240 ever have enough resources in there, but we've got some 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.600 really good people. But I think, you know, certainly that 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:57.400 folding of CERT into n CSC was in air pluses 0:19:57.440 --> 0:19:59.159 and minuses. I mean, I think the pros are that 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:04.040 it's a lot closer to the mechanisms that are watching 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.000 what's happening around the world and the learnings and those 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.680 sorts of things. But what we lost in the immediate 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.280 moment was actually the ability to communicate and collaborate with 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.520 organizations and with businesses. And certainly I've been talking to 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:21.280 them over the last couple of weeks and saying, look, 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.600 you've really got to up the game and get back 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.520 out there and talk to people, because that's what is 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.200 going to make the difference when it comes to collaboration. 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:34.720 So we're very keen to work with them on getting information, 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:40.679 but building pathways backwards and forwards because businesses, particularly large corporates, 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:45.320 rely on information that comes from there. And I'm also 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:47.480 with you, Peter, you know, talking about what happened in 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:50.920 Australia and the changes. I mean, we haven't seen those 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.719 happen here, and I really do not want a large 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:02.520 incident to be the cause of things changing here. You know, 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.200 we really do need to get into that and unfortunately, 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:08.360 as I said at the beginning, this is not one 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:10.320 that's going to go away. We're just going to have 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:11.320 to keep working at it. 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.600 And I guess related to that, you know, cybersecurity experts 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:19.720 are really hard to recruit. The big issue I think 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:24.240 that you've identified in twenty twenty five among priorities is 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.399 this persistent tech talent gap. We sort of had this 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:31.080 weird situation. We always have struggled to get tech people here, 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:34.080 so we've made it attractive for people to come to 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.879 New Zealand to fill that gap. Then we had a 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:41.240 bit of a softening off the labor market. Now of 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.560 course we've seen an exodus of people because of the 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:47.000 soft economy here, people looking for greener pastures. So I 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:50.639 think it's getting intense again. And we've seen the government, 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.119 you know, we've seen digital nomad visas. We've seen the 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:56.680 golden sort of visas for people who want to invest 0:21:57.800 --> 0:21:59.879 maybe in startups in New Zealand, put some money in 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:03.040 and come and get a pathway to residency. So hopefully 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:06.159 we'll get Google ex Google executives and people coming to 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:10.199 New Zealand. But this is a persistent thing, isn't it. 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:15.080 And we had an industry transformation plan for digital workforce 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:17.080 and that sort of stuff got knocked on the head. 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:19.520 Funding was pulled. What have we got now? 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:21.840 You know, I want to talk about the IP for 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.040 a minute, because there's a lot of work that went 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:26.679 into that. And look, whether you liked the concept of 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:31.919 IP across the board, what happened where they just knocked 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.760 all the IPS on the head was really a step 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:38.920 backwards for technology because we had it was the first 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:41.440 sign of actually working together to try and figure out 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:46.360 what the funnel looks like. And certainly, you know post COVID, 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:48.880 when you talk to most of the CEOs et cetera, 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:52.320 they were talking about immigration settings. Well, we've done quite 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:54.479 a bit of work in that space, but certainly over 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:57.199 the last two years they've talked more about how do 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:01.680 we grow this home grown talent or encourage New Zealanders 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:04.720 to come back in these areas that we need them. 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:09.719 And they're not always what you'd consider to be general 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.800 tech that you're right, you know, the cybersecurity experts, the 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:16.480 AI people, the data scientists. It's not just the code 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.159 is that we need. It's a whole range of things. 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:23.000 And there's been some changes since this government came in 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:27.000 that you know, haven't really made any real help. So 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:30.480 you've seen the ip GO and then the announcements around 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:36.600 post tertiary or sorry tertiary education, so certainly vocational education changes. 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:41.240 You know, this government came in with a particular policy 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:44.960 where they wanted to unwind Tipookinger and it's driven I 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:50.840 think a whole lot of activity and actions that haven't 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:54.119