Speaker 1: Our tech sector is undoubtedly one of the fastest growing
Speaker 1: areas off our economy and exporting powerhouse and yielding high
Speaker 1: salaries for those employed in it. So do we have
Speaker 1: the talent and skills pipeline to support its growth? Well, Nope,
Speaker 1: not even close. I'm Peter Griffin and on this week's
Speaker 1: episode if the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business,
Speaker 1: we're looking at one of the biggest issues facing the
Speaker 1: tech sector, an urgent need to rapidly upskill the workforce
Speaker 1: and technologies like artificial intelligence, just as our best and
Speaker 1: brightest head for the exits seeking greener pastures overseas. My
Speaker 1: guest on the pod this week is Craig Young, the
Speaker 1: long serving CEO of Two Hands, the Technology Uses Association
Speaker 1: of New Zealand, a member's based advocacy body that has
Speaker 1: done great work over the years on behalf of consumers
Speaker 1: on everything from breaking up telecoms monopoly to pushing for
Speaker 1: greater digital inclusion. Two and recently published its annual Digital
Speaker 1: Priorities Report, which rounds up the views of dozens of
Speaker 1: tech leaders looking at what we need to do in
Speaker 1: the tech and digital space to really advance our aims
Speaker 1: as a nation. It's they're a pretty frustrated bunch, with
Speaker 1: no digital strategy or even a clear roadmap for the
Speaker 1: country's approach to AI. There's a sense in the report
Speaker 1: that we're drifting along while other countries like Australia get
Speaker 1: dead serious about the opportunities and the risks that technology pose.
Speaker 1: But the most pressing issue is the tech skills gap.
Speaker 1: The government is currently revamping its approach to apprenticeships, internships
Speaker 1: and the like what's known as vocational education. It has
Speaker 1: a plan to create a group of industry skills boards.
Speaker 1: But where do tech and the creative economy fit in
Speaker 1: while bundled in with manufacturing. That's not good enough, says Craig,
Speaker 1: who wants to see finally a dedicated skills push for
Speaker 1: the knowledge economy industries. The government claims to want to
Speaker 1: double exports from over the next ten years. So here's
Speaker 1: the interview with Two Hands CEO Craig Young. Craig Young,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business of Tech. How are you doing, Craig,
Speaker 1: I'm doing well. Thank you, Peter Kyodor and thank you
Speaker 1: for having me. Yeah, great to have you on. Been
Speaker 1: meaning to have you on the show because you're doing
Speaker 1: such great work. With Two Hands, an organization that's been
Speaker 1: around in New Zealand for a long time. I remember
Speaker 1: as a cadet reporter Ernie Newman was the head of
Speaker 1: Two Hands, a long serving chief executive, always had a
Speaker 1: great turn of phrase and real advocate for consumers. But
Speaker 1: just give us a little bit of background about Two
Speaker 1: Hands and the evolution of the organization over the years.
Speaker 1: You've been CEO, nowfare what coming up on ten years?
Speaker 2: Right, Peter? Ten years and I really can't believe where
Speaker 2: that time's gone because every year is so different. You know,
Speaker 2: we've been through quite a lot during that time as well.
Speaker 2: I too remember the earning Newman days. I've been around
Speaker 2: for a while as well. I wasn't quite a cadet,
Speaker 2: but yeah, and he did a good twelve years as
Speaker 2: the CEO. And I've learned over time looking at other
Speaker 2: organizations like this, you do tend to see the ones
Speaker 2: that make the most impact, where the leader hangs around
Speaker 2: for a little while. You know, we were the Taic
Speaker 2: Communications Users Association and in those days when the nineties
Speaker 2: and early two thousands, there was a lot of issue
Speaker 2: in MAHI that needed to be done for users across
Speaker 2: the board from individuals right through to corporates, and we
Speaker 2: saw the you know, significant changes that occurred, and we
Speaker 2: sort of got to the point of when I started
Speaker 2: where we had probably won that battle, maybe not the
Speaker 2: overall war, if you want to put it that way,
Speaker 2: but when that batt also we had to sort of
Speaker 2: reshape and refigure. And it's why in twenty twenty we
Speaker 2: changed the tar in our name to technology because we
Speaker 2: recognized that there wasn't a user group for the broader
Speaker 2: tech space. But also telecommunications had morphed, had morphed in
Speaker 2: a big way to being much more than just you know,
Speaker 2: making phone calls and text messages.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you did, you know, I think you were
Speaker 1: integral in the early days to actually winning that war
Speaker 1: around structural separation of telecom into Chorus and Spark. You know,
Speaker 1: the work that two ADS did advocating for the consumer
Speaker 1: was absolutely integral to that. So I think kiwi's a
Speaker 1: debt of gratitude to two Ads, As you say, it's
Speaker 1: become a broader remit now and it's really encapsulated. Every
Speaker 1: year you do this Digital Priorities Report, and it's just
Speaker 1: been published Digital Priorities in twenty twenty five and I've
Speaker 1: got to say, I consider get a sense of frustration.
Speaker 1: This report is based on surveys and interviews with thirty
Speaker 1: six CIOs, chief information officers and chief technology officers. Some
Speaker 1: big names in there. If you flick through the report
Speaker 1: and you're around the tech sector, you'll know some of
Speaker 1: these people. They're really smart people, and I just get
Speaker 1: a sense reading it that they're frustrated at some of
Speaker 1: the issues that we face in the lack of progress
Speaker 1: in the digital space. There are some strengths in there,
Speaker 1: and maybe let's start on a positive note, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of where we're at in terms of our
Speaker 1: digital infrastructure, our digital economy, the digital space in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: What are our strengths at the moment in your eyes.
Speaker 2: That's a really good question, Peter, And you're right about
Speaker 2: the feeling that comes through. But there is some positiveness,
Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, and I think it's more frustration that
Speaker 2: we haven't made the most of what we've got. And certainly,
Speaker 2: you know the structural separation of course on a telecom
Speaker 2: the interesting just in a side there. I was actually
Speaker 2: at chorus during that time, so you know, New Zealand
Speaker 2: is a small place, so you move from one side
Speaker 2: to the other, but absolutely believe in that the cio CTOs.
Speaker 2: You know, there is some really amazing things happening in
Speaker 2: New Zealand and the technology space, and they're really keen
Speaker 2: to utilize New Zealand technology. The growth of high speed
Speaker 2: broadband is you know, obviously a key underpinning to so
Speaker 2: many things that gets done, and we see businesses taking
Speaker 2: up those services, you know, more and more, where as
Speaker 2: individuals were very quick to take it up, particularly during COVID,
Speaker 2: you know, when we wanted to stream so much TV.
Speaker 2: But you know, we're seeing different things being used. You know,
Speaker 2: the difference between when I started and now on international cables,
Speaker 2: the number of cables that we have coming into New Zealand,
Speaker 2: so our connections to the world is so much better
Speaker 2: and we see more of those occurring as well. So
Speaker 2: you know, there is some real good things about our infrastructure.
Speaker 2: We might be the last bus stop before Antarctica, but
Speaker 2: we really do have great connectivity to the rest of
Speaker 2: the world and inside our nation. Five GM mobile networks
Speaker 2: and we're going to see some upgrades to those later
Speaker 2: in the year when they all build their what's called
Speaker 2: a standalone core so that's the core of the network
Speaker 2: will be upgraded to five G and they'll be able
Speaker 2: to provide some extra services that will be amazing for us.
Speaker 2: We've done some amazing things in rural we shouldn't we
Speaker 2: shouldn't you know, step back from some of the stuff
Speaker 2: that's been done with the wireless ISPs, with the RCG.
Speaker 2: You know, the idea of sharing infrastructure is so important
Speaker 2: when it comes to the further out you get from urban.
Speaker 2: So you know, it's easy sometimes to think about the
Speaker 2: things we don't have, but we do have quite a lot,
Speaker 2: and we have some very smart people. We just don't
Speaker 2: have enough of them. Yeah, so there are some possibles.
Speaker 2: And look, one of the interesting things was after writing
Speaker 2: the report, obviously you do get sort of focused in
Speaker 2: on what you think should happen next. And one of
Speaker 2: our speakers at our recent event decided to ask is
Speaker 2: AI tool you know, can you tell me what the
Speaker 2: sense of positivity is from this report? It actually came
Speaker 2: about at six out of ten, So it's not a
Speaker 2: completely negative report. It's slightly positive. And when you talk
Speaker 2: to the CEOs etc. About their perspective on where we
Speaker 2: sit in the world, they do put us at about
Speaker 2: a sex out of ten, so not all dream and gloom.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as you mentioned in there, things like, you know,
Speaker 1: we've got pretty good e commerce legislation, online banking access,
Speaker 1: although you were a little bit behind on the open
Speaker 1: banking front, and it's something your predecessor, Ernie Newman is
Speaker 1: still sort of talking about, you know, the competitive issues
Speaker 1: that we have. But you know, there are some positives
Speaker 1: there in terms of the challenges and the opportun unities
Speaker 1: that we face. You know, they're pretty clear in there.
Speaker 1: You talk about escalating cybersecurity risks and a bit of
Speaker 1: complacency or under resourcing in that space, the persistent tech
Speaker 1: talent gap, and we'll talk in more detail about that.
Speaker 1: Digital inclusion is still not where it needs to be
Speaker 1: in terms of resourcing and progress we're making on that.
Speaker 1: But there was something more fundamental, I think underpinning at all,
Speaker 1: which is really a lack of visible strategic government leadership
Speaker 1: in the digital space. And I've been talking to a
Speaker 1: lot of people about that. We've had a change of government,
Speaker 1: but we are look eighteen months into this new government.
Speaker 1: They've done some things in the innovation space, big shake
Speaker 1: up underway, but let's face it, we still don't have
Speaker 1: a national digital strategy, do we.
Speaker 2: So look, I think you're right, Peter, we don't have
Speaker 2: a national digital strategy, even though the government has talked
Speaker 2: it up and certainly when they were in opposition they
Speaker 2: were absolutely committed to using digital technology as a key
Speaker 2: growth platform. I think, you know, we'll give them some
Speaker 2: some we'll let off a little bit. They did a
Speaker 2: lot of shifting and changing last year, but unfortunately that's
Speaker 2: led to changes in their ministerial portfolios. But also I
Speaker 2: understand that it's not quite clear on who's taking ownership
Speaker 2: of digital transformation within government. It's just a bit too
Speaker 2: spread out. I think the other thing is we haven't
Speaker 2: seen a strategy for the use of AI, and we
Speaker 2: certainly know that it's a big topic of discussion aroundst
Speaker 2: MPs ministers and also on the security side. You know,
Speaker 2: the thing that we're looking for is not necessarily some great, big,
Speaker 2: long document, but it is something where government takes leadership.
Speaker 2: There's such a big part of our economy, of our
Speaker 2: population and what they do with just even everyday individuals.
Speaker 2: Having some sense of a direction that they want the
Speaker 2: nation to go in I think is really important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that sort of leads me to my question,
Speaker 1: what would an effect of strategy look like in your view?
Speaker 1: What are some of the sort of first practical steps
Speaker 1: that would need to happen. Obviously it has to be
Speaker 1: government and industry and other stakeholders groups in society working together.
Speaker 1: But you know, how do you start putting this together.
Speaker 1: What's your sort of dream, sort of list of things
Speaker 1: that could be got off the ground relatively quickly or
Speaker 1: should be included in a strategy.
Speaker 2: I think what we've got to be aware of and
Speaker 2: quite clever around is the fact that technology moves so quickly,
Speaker 2: and so you know, if we want to spend months
Speaker 2: and months trying to work up a strategy developing regulation,
Speaker 2: we're going to be left behind. And that is different
Speaker 2: from the way government normally works. So we're quite clear
Speaker 2: on that. You're absolutely right, it's got to be a collaborative.
Speaker 2: It's going to be a collaborative approach government. You're actually
Speaker 2: you know, we've talked about that they're a big part
Speaker 2: of the economy. They take leadership, but we recognize, and
Speaker 2: the digital leaders did as well, that they need to
Speaker 2: be engaged and involved. And it's not just the technology
Speaker 2: industry that will be our export base. But if we
Speaker 2: want to grow our economy and grow productivity, then it's
Speaker 2: the other businesses also that need to pick up digital
Speaker 2: and do digital transformation. So I think that's the first
Speaker 2: place is trying to get those perspectives together and come
Speaker 2: up with some overriding direction, whether you want to call
Speaker 2: it a vision or just a sense of direction, and
Speaker 2: without getting to engage. I mean, the last government did
Speaker 2: have a digital strategy, but it was quite a thick
Speaker 2: document and they're basically done it them I wouldn't say
Speaker 2: they've done it themselves. That's a bit unfair, but it
Speaker 2: wasn't as collaborative as it could have been. And I
Speaker 2: think what we need to do is something that will
Speaker 2: be able to be flexible and live and change as
Speaker 2: we go. Certainly, you know, if you talk three years ago,
Speaker 2: we wouldn't have been talking about AI as much as
Speaker 2: we're talking about it now. And it's just a classic
Speaker 2: example of something that can just turn things upside down.
Speaker 2: So you've got to be able to react and cope
Speaker 2: to those sort of technology changes. You know, as well
Speaker 2: as I repeted it, we see amazing technology, you know,
Speaker 2: sort of coming and sometimes it takes a long time
Speaker 2: to come and then suddenly it's here, and so you know,
Speaker 2: you do have time to get ready for it, but
Speaker 2: you probably don't you think that way, and then suddenly
Speaker 2: you've got to do something. So it's not easy. I'm
Speaker 2: not saying it's going to be easy to sit down
Speaker 2: and do something like this, but it is a conversation
Speaker 2: and a sense of direction that we really need.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot of people in the tech
Speaker 1: community viewed the fact that Judith Collins was having this
Speaker 1: tech portfolio elevating the position off these sorts of issues,
Speaker 1: had a bunch of portfolios that seemed to complement each other,
Speaker 1: the digitizing government portfolio. But the reality is, and obviously
Speaker 1: she's out of most of those portfolios now in favor
Speaker 1: of Shane Retti, who's a very competent minister. But there's
Speaker 1: a sense we've lost momentum. There's been a few random,
Speaker 1: sort of individual initiatives, and look, we are in a
Speaker 1: constrained time in terms of government putting money into new
Speaker 1: initiatives like digital inclusion and that sort of thing. But
Speaker 1: there's a sense halfway through this term that it's sort
Speaker 1: of lost momentum. Will that be fair.
Speaker 2: I think you're right, Peter, and it certainly comes through,
Speaker 2: you know, a radious specific section in the report on
Speaker 2: the reaction of CEOs etc. Two Government and we asked
Speaker 2: them the specific question, We said, what have you seen
Speaker 2: from this government? And that's where things like the invisible
Speaker 2: government term came out. Disappointment I think as well. I
Speaker 2: think you're right. There was a real excitement that we
Speaker 2: could build on what had been done and that this
Speaker 2: government was going to be really focused on. And look,
Speaker 2: no disrespect to the ministers themselves, because they are very
Speaker 2: you know, passionate and they are good people, but they
Speaker 2: are loaded up. So Minister Collins was given you know,
Speaker 2: a large number of portfolios and so not everything gets
Speaker 2: the focus that it might necessarily deserve. So, you know,
Speaker 2: on that basis, that's why I think we've said government
Speaker 2: leadership is important, and the leaders that we've been talking
Speaker 2: to are you know, saying there's a gap there.
Speaker 1: Drilling down into some of the issues that you've identified.
Speaker 1: A perennial one that comes up as cybersecurity risk. The
Speaker 1: risks are escalating and AI is increasingly having a role
Speaker 1: to play in that. Also in defense of cybersecurity, which
Speaker 1: is great. But yeah, look everywhere every time I talk
Speaker 1: to cio CTOs, they just sort of say, lookd A's
Speaker 1: frustration within their own organizations around how seriously cybersecurity is taken.
Speaker 1: What's sort of at the height of our reluctance to
Speaker 1: as a nation and individually as businesses and consumers even
Speaker 1: to really take this seriously.
Speaker 2: I think there's a couple of things. And look, this
Speaker 2: one is not going to go away as far as
Speaker 2: I'm concerned. It's been you know, every one of the
Speaker 2: five reports we've done, this has been one of them.
Speaker 2: And it just keeps going. And you know, we could
Speaker 2: look at the stats and talk to people anecdotally about
Speaker 2: the challenges their face every day and they attack vectors
Speaker 2: that they're saying every day, you know, just growing all
Speaker 2: the time. And you talked about AI, the weaponization of AI.
Speaker 2: You know, on both sides of the of the of this.
Speaker 2: I think there's a couple of things that play into
Speaker 2: New Zealand. One is, you know I talked about earlier,
Speaker 2: we are well connected to the world. We are no
Speaker 2: longer that large little country halfway around the world. We're
Speaker 2: seen as an easy pick by some actors as not
Speaker 2: necessary to get access to things in New Zealand, but
Speaker 2: to get to go through us to other environments in
Speaker 2: other countries. So that's disappointing obviously, But it's that she'll
Speaker 2: be right attitude, I think particularly from individuals. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm nobody, Why would it happen to me, Well, you
Speaker 2: can be used to get access to somebody else, so
Speaker 2: it may not be you, But we are just one.
Speaker 2: We are part of the global population when it comes
Speaker 2: to digital where microseconds from anywhere in the world. And
Speaker 2: I think in the corporate space, you know, boards in
Speaker 2: particular have been dealing with significant issues over the last
Speaker 2: five ten years. Health and safety became a really big one,
Speaker 2: and so maybe security sort of got pushed down the list.
Speaker 2: And of course those sort of compliance issues, security issues
Speaker 2: don't necessarily easily convert to ROI and revenue and profit
Speaker 2: and all those sorts of things, and it's they're just
Speaker 2: being over I don't know whether they're seeing it and going, well,
Speaker 2: the risk isn't that great. Well, actually the risk is
Speaker 2: pretty great, and most CTOs are the ones at the
Speaker 2: forefront of that and trying to convince their boards. If
Speaker 2: you don't take security seriously, you could end up being
Speaker 2: someone like Marks and Spencers. In the UK, there's been
Speaker 2: a couple of big occurrences over there that have I
Speaker 2: think should be wake up.
Speaker 1: Calls OPTUS In Australia that was the big one in
Speaker 1: this part of the world, which led to legislation change
Speaker 1: in terms of the penalties for data breaches, which has
Speaker 1: been pointed to here. We have very low penalties ten
Speaker 1: thousand dollars fine for Privacy Act breaches, so that is
Speaker 1: an issue in terms of what the government is doing.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of consternation about, you know, the
Speaker 1: CERT Organization being folded into the National Center for Cybersecurity
Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, what the government is doing
Speaker 1: with the malware free networks and with CERT. What's your
Speaker 1: sense on how prepared we are or how well resourced
Speaker 1: we are as a nation to tackle some of these
Speaker 1: big issues trying to identify and intercept these big threats,
Speaker 1: whether they're cyber criminal, criminals trying to scam us, or
Speaker 1: even some of the state based stuff trying to disrupt
Speaker 1: us for geopolitical reasons.
Speaker 2: Look, it's perennial, Christian Peter and I don't think we'd
Speaker 2: ever have enough resources in there, but we've got some
Speaker 2: really good people. But I think, you know, certainly that
Speaker 2: folding of CERT into n CSC was in air pluses
Speaker 2: and minuses. I mean, I think the pros are that
Speaker 2: it's a lot closer to the mechanisms that are watching
Speaker 2: what's happening around the world and the learnings and those
Speaker 2: sorts of things. But what we lost in the immediate
Speaker 2: moment was actually the ability to communicate and collaborate with
Speaker 2: organizations and with businesses. And certainly I've been talking to
Speaker 2: them over the last couple of weeks and saying, look,
Speaker 2: you've really got to up the game and get back
Speaker 2: out there and talk to people, because that's what is
Speaker 2: going to make the difference when it comes to collaboration.
Speaker 2: So we're very keen to work with them on getting information,
Speaker 2: but building pathways backwards and forwards because businesses, particularly large corporates,
Speaker 2: rely on information that comes from there. And I'm also
Speaker 2: with you, Peter, you know, talking about what happened in
Speaker 2: Australia and the changes. I mean, we haven't seen those
Speaker 2: happen here, and I really do not want a large
Speaker 2: incident to be the cause of things changing here. You know,
Speaker 2: we really do need to get into that and unfortunately,
Speaker 2: as I said at the beginning, this is not one
Speaker 2: that's going to go away. We're just going to have
Speaker 2: to keep working at it.
Speaker 1: And I guess related to that, you know, cybersecurity experts
Speaker 1: are really hard to recruit. The big issue I think
Speaker 1: that you've identified in twenty twenty five among priorities is
Speaker 1: this persistent tech talent gap. We sort of had this
Speaker 1: weird situation. We always have struggled to get tech people here,
Speaker 1: so we've made it attractive for people to come to
Speaker 1: New Zealand to fill that gap. Then we had a
Speaker 1: bit of a softening off the labor market. Now of
Speaker 1: course we've seen an exodus of people because of the
Speaker 1: soft economy here, people looking for greener pastures. So I
Speaker 1: think it's getting intense again. And we've seen the government,
Speaker 1: you know, we've seen digital nomad visas. We've seen the
Speaker 1: golden sort of visas for people who want to invest
Speaker 1: maybe in startups in New Zealand, put some money in
Speaker 1: and come and get a pathway to residency. So hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll get Google ex Google executives and people coming to
Speaker 1: New Zealand. But this is a persistent thing, isn't it.
Speaker 1: And we had an industry transformation plan for digital workforce
Speaker 1: and that sort of stuff got knocked on the head.
Speaker 1: Funding was pulled. What have we got now?
Speaker 2: You know, I want to talk about the IP for
Speaker 2: a minute, because there's a lot of work that went
Speaker 2: into that. And look, whether you liked the concept of
Speaker 2: IP across the board, what happened where they just knocked
Speaker 2: all the IPS on the head was really a step
Speaker 2: backwards for technology because we had it was the first
Speaker 2: sign of actually working together to try and figure out
Speaker 2: what the funnel looks like. And certainly, you know post COVID,
Speaker 2: when you talk to most of the CEOs et cetera,
Speaker 2: they were talking about immigration settings. Well, we've done quite
Speaker 2: a bit of work in that space, but certainly over
Speaker 2: the last two years they've talked more about how do
Speaker 2: we grow this home grown talent or encourage New Zealanders
Speaker 2: to come back in these areas that we need them.
Speaker 2: And they're not always what you'd consider to be general
Speaker 2: tech that you're right, you know, the cybersecurity experts, the
Speaker 2: AI people, the data scientists. It's not just the code
Speaker 2: is that we need. It's a whole range of things.
Speaker 2: And there's been some changes since this government came in
Speaker 2: that you know, haven't really made any real help. So
Speaker 2: you've seen the ip GO and then the announcements around
Speaker 2: post tertiary or sorry tertiary education, so certainly vocational education changes.
Speaker 2: You know, this government came in with a particular policy
Speaker 2: where they wanted to unwind Tipookinger and it's driven I
Speaker 2: think a whole lot of activity and actions that haven't
Speaker 2: worked in the favor of the technology industry. And so
Speaker 2: because what we've talked about is there has to be
Speaker 2: a number of ways that people can get into this space.
Speaker 1: And I want to talk particularly about one development that
Speaker 1: is live at the moment. There's consultation going on about this.
Speaker 1: This is the winding down of the so called workforce
Speaker 1: Development Councils, which were set up in twenty twenty really
Speaker 1: as a response to COVID. They are being replaced by
Speaker 1: these industry standards boards, and the Tertiary Education Commission has
Speaker 1: pointed out upfront there's going to be less funding for them.
Speaker 1: These are going to be boards that focus on vocational
Speaker 1: education things like internships, apprenticeships, cadet ships. But the list
Speaker 1: of boards that they're looking to set up, the very
Speaker 1: traditional construction infrastructure, trades, that sort of thing. Then you've
Speaker 1: got tech sort of bundled in with manufacturing. And I've
Speaker 1: seen a press release from Tuhas and other tech leaders
Speaker 1: basically saying this isn't good enough. We need a dedicated
Speaker 1: focus on the digital and creative economies, which includes things
Speaker 1: like video games.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely, We've been talking about this for years. So
Speaker 2: this is where, you know, if we want more people
Speaker 2: to take up these roles within digital technology transformation, all
Speaker 2: these different ones, we've got to think outside the box.
Speaker 2: It can't just be you go to university and to
Speaker 2: get a degree, because not everybody can afford to go
Speaker 2: to university, not everybody has the capacity to do what
Speaker 2: you do at a university. There's got to be other pathways.
Speaker 2: And you know, Peter, we've done some little things where
Speaker 2: we've gone and talked to students in areas which you
Speaker 2: typically probably wouldn't consider where people would go into tech
Speaker 2: degrees and ask them why don't you consider tech? And
Speaker 2: it usually comes down to, well, i've got to look
Speaker 2: after the family or i've got to you know, it's
Speaker 2: not an easy path. I can't see myself going to university.
Speaker 2: So these ideas of internships and apprenticeships and you know,
Speaker 2: different pathways into this US so critically important for us,
Speaker 2: and yet this announcement and proposal is basically just going, well,
Speaker 2: we're just going to focus in on the traditional ones.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, great, but give us an id ISD or
Speaker 2: do IDC or whatever you want to call it for
Speaker 2: digital technology, because putting technology in with manufacturing isn't really
Speaker 2: the answer. And actually, if you look at it, any
Speaker 2: technology qualifications or studies or tech digital, it's going to
Speaker 2: go back to the NZQA framework at TEC. So there'll
Speaker 2: be no if it put into encouraging these others. Now,
Speaker 2: I do want to say, Peter, there are some organizations,
Speaker 2: private sector organizations that are looking at these things and
Speaker 2: implementing them themselves, but that's only going to scratch the
Speaker 2: surface in such a small way. I mean, or credit
Speaker 2: to them, but they're not getting a support that they're
Speaker 2: need or being able to roll it out further. So
Speaker 2: you know, I'm really disappointed because I think this we've
Speaker 2: missed a trick. We're mister trick.
Speaker 1: Yet, Yeah, totally, Like I talked to the likes of
Speaker 1: Data Common that and to their credit, you know, they
Speaker 1: are putting money into cadet chips and internships and that
Speaker 1: sort of thing. You've got the vendors that are going
Speaker 1: really hard on saying we're going to train one hundred
Speaker 1: thousand people. This is Microsoft, but on their technology stack.
Speaker 1: You know, that's understandable. A WS will do the same,
Speaker 1: salesforce will do the same. We can't just rely on
Speaker 1: these sorts of initiatives. We need to have a strategic
Speaker 1: approach to how we build this digital workforce, and.
Speaker 2: They need a lot of other skills other than just
Speaker 2: knowing how to use you know, the copilot stack or
Speaker 2: the aw stack. They need to have critical thinking because
Speaker 2: you know, as we talked about earlier, digital technology changes
Speaker 2: so quickly that what they're learning today it's maybe on genai,
Speaker 2: will not be what they need to work on in
Speaker 2: ten years time. You know, quantum computing will be here,
Speaker 2: so we'll be doing other things, and we'll be doing
Speaker 2: so many other different things. They might be working in
Speaker 2: the medical industry rather than in the in the straight
Speaker 2: technology industry. They could be winging an amazing range of areas.
Speaker 2: It could be in the agricultural sector. But they need
Speaker 2: that capability to think in and know how these things
Speaker 2: work rather than just knowing how to do a prompt
Speaker 2: and copile it. Well, that's pretty unfair, but you know,
Speaker 2: you get in the drift of what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think some submissions close on that proposal
Speaker 1: for these new industry standards boards on May the twentieth,
Speaker 1: So really encourage people to have their say about that
Speaker 1: and see if we can make some progress you and
Speaker 1: put that in front of officials that basically making the
Speaker 1: case for a dedicated digital technology and creative board that
Speaker 1: gives a focus and hopefully some targets as well. How
Speaker 1: many AI engineers are we going to need in the
Speaker 1: next decade. If we don't know that, we've got nothing
Speaker 1: to aim for, we're not going to make it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I said, disconnect. Have you read the government's
Speaker 2: growth agenda? Technology is in there, and we heard the
Speaker 2: Prime Minister over the weekend talk about technology is one
Speaker 2: of those And yet here where we've got you know,
Speaker 2: where we invest in our people that will make this happen,
Speaker 2: We've got no investment and no framework to make it happen.
Speaker 2: So I feel like there's you know, they're talking across
Speaker 2: each other or not not lining things up. So that's
Speaker 2: that's disappointing.
Speaker 1: Okay, another one that is unfortunately disappointing is our progress
Speaker 1: on digital is our progress on digital inclusion, you know,
Speaker 1: paint the picture for us. At the moment. We've seen
Speaker 1: a lot of initiatives that do great work at the
Speaker 1: front lines sort of defunded, have lost their funding, some
Speaker 1: government funding and the charitable funding is there at a
Speaker 1: lower level, so some great initiatives unfortunately have gone. There's
Speaker 1: less funding for those that remain. We did have, you
Speaker 1: know a lot of work which you alluded to in
Speaker 1: the broadband space, you know UFB, and the government's committed
Speaker 1: to push that out even further. There's the Rural Connectivity Group,
Speaker 1: the mobile operators are collaborating, so there's some good infrastructure
Speaker 1: stuff going on. Where are the remaining gaps that we
Speaker 1: really need to address when it comes to digital inclusion.
Speaker 2: Let's start of the infrastructure space. I mean obviously remote rural,
Speaker 2: and there are things you know, with copper turn off,
Speaker 2: three G mobile going and networks being turned off. Those
Speaker 2: can be dealt with and fixed. There are solutions, not
Speaker 2: as many as I'd hoped and not as competitive as hope,
Speaker 2: but you know, those are things and I don't think
Speaker 2: the answer is which I've heard in some places, which
Speaker 2: is Starlink's the answer or two reasons for that. One
Speaker 2: is it's quite expensive and secondly, do you really want
Speaker 2: to pull on your eggs in that basket? And you know,
Speaker 2: we haven't talked about geopolitical scenarios, but that is one
Speaker 2: of them. I think what we need to move on
Speaker 2: from is is this build, build something big, because it
Speaker 2: will fix most of the problem. And now we're at
Speaker 2: the stage where we need to be thinking outwards in
Speaker 2: which is who's not connected, Why aren't they connected? What's
Speaker 2: leaving them behind? And if you as a government want
Speaker 2: to digitize and you want to, you know, have people
Speaker 2: interacting with you through digital technology, you're going to have
Speaker 2: to look after people as well. You can't leave them behind.
Speaker 2: And so there is the question around affordability for a
Speaker 2: small but significant group. You know, it is something that's
Speaker 2: that's important to look at. And we've certainly you shared
Speaker 2: with the government over the years on some of the
Speaker 2: solutions and they could they could look at and we've
Speaker 2: tried to be very practical, so we haven't gone in
Speaker 2: and go and spend X billion dollars and connect to
Speaker 2: everybody we've gone look at those that are missing out
Speaker 2: because they're missing out on other things. So you know,
Speaker 2: why don't you roll this in And we've been talking
Speaker 2: about connectivity being the fourth utility. So you need electricity,
Speaker 2: you need water, you need roads, and you need to
Speaker 2: be connected because you can't live and work in this current,
Speaker 2: this day and age if you don't have those services.
Speaker 2: So if you could get that built into that way
Speaker 2: of thinking, I think, you know, that would be a
Speaker 2: great start. But then you start to think about you know,
Speaker 2: inclusion isn't just about being connected so you can text
Speaker 2: your or message or do something like them. It is
Speaker 2: around how you interact with others, how you and that's
Speaker 2: certainly across the board. You know, keeping you connected with
Speaker 2: people is really important. But then also it gives you
Speaker 2: opportunities to think about, well, I can create a business
Speaker 2: out of this. I can be connected, I can build something.
Speaker 2: And also you know, as a young person, if you're
Speaker 2: if you've got the tools and you learn those tools
Speaker 2: and use them, it also opens you up to a
Speaker 2: whole new world that you can live and working as well.
Speaker 2: Other than just those and went back to those talking
Speaker 2: about those traditional industries. You know, if you don't know.
Speaker 2: If you don't connect it and don't have it, then yeah,
Speaker 2: you can't see it. So where it's hard. Look, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to say it's easy. It is difficult. It
Speaker 2: is costly in some ways, but we have to start somewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there was an initiative under labor I think
Speaker 1: it also came out of COVID really to subsidize broadband
Speaker 1: for families that really needed it through the education lend.
Speaker 1: So your kids are all in lockdown at home, here's
Speaker 1: a subsidy on your broadband subscription to enable them to
Speaker 1: learn from home. What's the status of that? Now? There
Speaker 1: was talk about that being wound down, then it was
Speaker 1: thrown a lifeline. Is it still going, No, it's gone gone.
Speaker 1: It finished up last year. Yeah, So I mean disappointing
Speaker 1: in one regard, but on the other side of it,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, well, what can we use what
Speaker 1: do we learn from that we can take forward? And
Speaker 1: again you know, we came back to doing some work
Speaker 1: around the numbers and then looking at it and going
Speaker 1: why don't you simply use the mechanisms you have in
Speaker 1: place with education and aministry of social development to help
Speaker 1: people without trying to do something different because I mean,
Speaker 1: we're not in the place of creating bureaucracy or regulations
Speaker 1: for the sake of it. We really just want to
Speaker 1: see outcomes to help people. Yeah, there's an infrastructure divide.
Speaker 1: It goes to devices as well, the literacy being able
Speaker 1: to use all of that. And now we've got artificial intelligence,
Speaker 1: which risks sort of another divide. You know, I can
Speaker 1: afford to have a Perplexity account and get great use
Speaker 1: out of it and do all this great stuff with it.
Speaker 1: But if you're using some of these free tools, you're
Speaker 1: not going to get as quick results or as high
Speaker 1: quality results. So I guess that's another layer on top
Speaker 1: of it. When it digital equity. You've got this powerful
Speaker 1: new tool, but who's actually going to have access to it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and every new tool is the same, isn't it, Peter.
Speaker 2: So every new tool, you know, it can be used
Speaker 2: for good or for bad, or you know, could broaden
Speaker 2: the inequity. I'm with you too on the you know,
Speaker 2: if these free tools don't give you as much. The
Speaker 2: other danger is, of course with the free tools, is
Speaker 2: everything you load into it goes into the tool, doesn't it. Sorry,
Speaker 2: you know, you have to be careful around that, and
Speaker 2: if you don't understand that, you may be giving up
Speaker 2: stuff that you really don't want to.
Speaker 1: Look, we've really not seen much from the government on
Speaker 1: the AI front. There's guidance for the public sector, there's
Speaker 1: a strategy in the works, and there will be some
Speaker 1: guidance for business. But I think this really goes to
Speaker 1: one of the key points you also make in there
Speaker 1: is our risk aversion when it comes to technology adoption.
Speaker 1: I think the CIOs and CTO said, you know, they
Speaker 1: sort of rate us a six out of ten also
Speaker 1: on our new tech adoption, which is not that flash.
Speaker 1: You know, we're behind the ball on AI, so we
Speaker 1: have an issue where some people won't necessarily be able
Speaker 1: to access it because it's too expensive. But overall we
Speaker 1: drag the chain and this has been a common theme
Speaker 1: in New Zealand. Even though we've had all this great infrastructure,
Speaker 1: we were slow to the cloud. We're slow to adopt
Speaker 1: these advanced technologies, which is having implications for our productivity.
Speaker 1: You know, after ten years of talking to members and
Speaker 1: consumers and businesses, what do you see has been key
Speaker 1: to this?
Speaker 2: If I knew the answer to that, Peter I'll be
Speaker 2: out there selling it. But yeah, there is, and I
Speaker 2: think it's just become exacerbated in the last couple of years.
Speaker 2: Actually that this over cautiousness and perhaps lack of ambition
Speaker 2: at a national level, which then flows down to decision makers,
Speaker 2: is a concern. And all we can do is continue
Speaker 2: to talk to them and say, well, how can we
Speaker 2: help you understand what's coming down the track. I mean,
Speaker 2: sorry to talk about turns for a minute, but we
Speaker 2: always see what we do to two pillars. One is
Speaker 2: our advocacy work, so that's the external stuff where we're
Speaker 2: talking to decision makers, doing media work, all that sort
Speaker 2: of stuff. You know, these sorts of reports. But these
Speaker 2: reports do two things. They are for decision makers, but
Speaker 2: we're also trying to help our members understand what's coming
Speaker 2: down the track and how they can make use of it.
Speaker 2: And maybe, look, maybe we haven't been as good as
Speaker 2: we should have been in helping our members understand that stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes I get the message from some people
Speaker 2: that oh, I just ask my vendor what's coming. Well,
Speaker 2: that's great because that your vendor continue, but actually you
Speaker 2: don't get the breadth of the interest and knowledge of
Speaker 2: what's coming. So maybe we haven't done as good a
Speaker 2: job as we could, and maybe that's a good learning
Speaker 2: for us. But yeah, we're trying to help our members
Speaker 2: understand you know, these things as well, and so that's
Speaker 2: it's tricky for us as well to keep on top
Speaker 2: of everything. But I mean I have I do have
Speaker 2: a small sense of optimism that there are that you know,
Speaker 2: if you get this sense from these people that is
Speaker 2: an issue and it makes them think about it, and
Speaker 2: the report is a discussion starter as well, so you know,
Speaker 2: hopefully these sorts of conversations will help.
Speaker 1: I'm optimistic as well. We've got some great people doing
Speaker 1: great things with AI for instance, and U seeing some
Speaker 1: of the startups that are not really on the radar
Speaker 1: yet that I'm talking to are just doing incredible work.
Speaker 1: So I am optimistic about that. I think literacy and
Speaker 1: education is key things that we need to crack and
Speaker 1: that goes back to the workforce development and that as well.
Speaker 1: But if we can maybe finish on a positive note,
Speaker 1: if we can craig one major shift, you know that
Speaker 1: we might be able to see in twenty twenty five
Speaker 1: that could have a positive impact on the digital landscape.
Speaker 1: Is the one thing that if we got Shane Retti
Speaker 1: and Judith Colins and that together and industry supported, we
Speaker 1: might be able to get over the line. That would
Speaker 1: make a difference.
Speaker 2: I think the one thing I'd really like to see
Speaker 2: is around the tech talent side, and it is about
Speaker 2: developing a plan that enables multiple tracks into a career
Speaker 2: in digital technology. And we have to think about things
Speaker 2: like what makes it easier for underrepresented groups, because underrepresented
Speaker 2: groups provide you know, there is a good reason for
Speaker 2: doing you know, talking to them one is just the
Speaker 2: right thing to do. But the other thing is that's
Speaker 2: a whole pool of talent that we're missing out on
Speaker 2: that could help us with our issue of not enough talent.
Speaker 2: So you know, getting more women back into the work
Speaker 2: you know, in the workforce, into digital terianformation, making it
Speaker 2: easier for them to move in and out things like
Speaker 2: fractional employment. But then there's also you know, I think
Speaker 2: the vocational tracks will assist with people who are in
Speaker 2: underrepresented groups. I mean, we're doing some little bits and
Speaker 2: pieces around helping MALDI in PACIFICA. You know understand, you know,
Speaker 2: what sort of career they can have, But we're only
Speaker 2: a small organization. So I think if we could get
Speaker 2: people talking about that and getting some of those pathways
Speaker 2: stood up, I think they would make a huge difference.
Speaker 1: So a pretty clear call to action from Craig Young.
Speaker 1: We need to get serious about tech skills. Not just
Speaker 1: importing talent, yes, we'll continue to need to do that,
Speaker 1: but getting industry and the education sector on the same
Speaker 1: page to partner for better access to vocational training for
Speaker 1: tech related skills. So, if you're in the tech sector,
Speaker 1: get in a submission on the government's consolation about these
Speaker 1: new industry skills boards. Tell them what you think. Let
Speaker 1: them know that tech, digital skills, and the creative economy,
Speaker 1: which includes things like video games, visual effects and the
Speaker 1: film industry might need a specific focus and some funding
Speaker 1: support to seed something decent with industry. I'll put a
Speaker 1: link in the submissions page in the show notes. Just
Speaker 1: go to the podcast section at Businessdesk dot co dot
Speaker 1: nz to find it. Submissions are closing pretty soon May twenty,
Speaker 1: so get one in quickly. Thanks to Craig for coming
Speaker 1: on the podcast. The Business of Tech is streaming on
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast app. Get in touch with
Speaker 1: your feedback and guest suggestions email me on Peter at
Speaker 1: Peter Griffin dot co dot nz or via LinkedIn. I'm
Speaker 1: there most days. Next week, a Wellington based startup that's
Speaker 1: just raised one million dollars, bought a competitor and is
Speaker 1: using AI to change how scientific research is undertaken. To
Speaker 1: next Tuesday for that, and I'll catch you then