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Speaker 1: Our tech sector is undoubtedly one of the fastest growing

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Speaker 1: areas off our economy and exporting powerhouse and yielding high

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Speaker 1: salaries for those employed in it. So do we have

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Speaker 1: the talent and skills pipeline to support its growth? Well, Nope,

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Speaker 1: not even close. I'm Peter Griffin and on this week's

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Speaker 1: episode if the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business,

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Speaker 1: we're looking at one of the biggest issues facing the

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Speaker 1: tech sector, an urgent need to rapidly upskill the workforce

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Speaker 1: and technologies like artificial intelligence, just as our best and

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Speaker 1: brightest head for the exits seeking greener pastures overseas. My

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Speaker 1: guest on the pod this week is Craig Young, the

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Speaker 1: long serving CEO of Two Hands, the Technology Uses Association

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Speaker 1: of New Zealand, a member's based advocacy body that has

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Speaker 1: done great work over the years on behalf of consumers

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Speaker 1: on everything from breaking up telecoms monopoly to pushing for

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Speaker 1: greater digital inclusion. Two and recently published its annual Digital

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Speaker 1: Priorities Report, which rounds up the views of dozens of

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Speaker 1: tech leaders looking at what we need to do in

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Speaker 1: the tech and digital space to really advance our aims

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Speaker 1: as a nation. It's they're a pretty frustrated bunch, with

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Speaker 1: no digital strategy or even a clear roadmap for the

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Speaker 1: country's approach to AI. There's a sense in the report

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Speaker 1: that we're drifting along while other countries like Australia get

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Speaker 1: dead serious about the opportunities and the risks that technology pose.

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Speaker 1: But the most pressing issue is the tech skills gap.

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Speaker 1: The government is currently revamping its approach to apprenticeships, internships

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Speaker 1: and the like what's known as vocational education. It has

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Speaker 1: a plan to create a group of industry skills boards.

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Speaker 1: But where do tech and the creative economy fit in

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Speaker 1: while bundled in with manufacturing. That's not good enough, says Craig,

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Speaker 1: who wants to see finally a dedicated skills push for

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Speaker 1: the knowledge economy industries. The government claims to want to

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Speaker 1: double exports from over the next ten years. So here's

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Speaker 1: the interview with Two Hands CEO Craig Young. Craig Young,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business of Tech. How are you doing, Craig,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. Thank you, Peter Kyodor and thank you

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Speaker 1: for having me. Yeah, great to have you on. Been

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Speaker 1: meaning to have you on the show because you're doing

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Speaker 1: such great work. With Two Hands, an organization that's been

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Speaker 1: around in New Zealand for a long time. I remember

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Speaker 1: as a cadet reporter Ernie Newman was the head of

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Speaker 1: Two Hands, a long serving chief executive, always had a

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Speaker 1: great turn of phrase and real advocate for consumers. But

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Speaker 1: just give us a little bit of background about Two

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Speaker 1: Hands and the evolution of the organization over the years.

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Speaker 1: You've been CEO, nowfare what coming up on ten years?

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Speaker 2: Right, Peter? Ten years and I really can't believe where

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Speaker 2: that time's gone because every year is so different. You know,

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Speaker 2: we've been through quite a lot during that time as well.

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Speaker 2: I too remember the earning Newman days. I've been around

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Speaker 2: for a while as well. I wasn't quite a cadet,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, and he did a good twelve years as

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Speaker 2: the CEO. And I've learned over time looking at other

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Speaker 2: organizations like this, you do tend to see the ones

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Speaker 2: that make the most impact, where the leader hangs around

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Speaker 2: for a little while. You know, we were the Taic

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Speaker 2: Communications Users Association and in those days when the nineties

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Speaker 2: and early two thousands, there was a lot of issue

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Speaker 2: in MAHI that needed to be done for users across

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Speaker 2: the board from individuals right through to corporates, and we

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Speaker 2: saw the you know, significant changes that occurred, and we

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Speaker 2: sort of got to the point of when I started

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Speaker 2: where we had probably won that battle, maybe not the

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Speaker 2: overall war, if you want to put it that way,

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Speaker 2: but when that batt also we had to sort of

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Speaker 2: reshape and refigure. And it's why in twenty twenty we

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Speaker 2: changed the tar in our name to technology because we

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Speaker 2: recognized that there wasn't a user group for the broader

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Speaker 2: tech space. But also telecommunications had morphed, had morphed in

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Speaker 2: a big way to being much more than just you know,

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Speaker 2: making phone calls and text messages.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you did, you know, I think you were

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Speaker 1: integral in the early days to actually winning that war

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Speaker 1: around structural separation of telecom into Chorus and Spark. You know,

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Speaker 1: the work that two ADS did advocating for the consumer

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Speaker 1: was absolutely integral to that. So I think kiwi's a

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Speaker 1: debt of gratitude to two Ads, As you say, it's

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Speaker 1: become a broader remit now and it's really encapsulated. Every

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Speaker 1: year you do this Digital Priorities Report, and it's just

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Speaker 1: been published Digital Priorities in twenty twenty five and I've

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Speaker 1: got to say, I consider get a sense of frustration.

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Speaker 1: This report is based on surveys and interviews with thirty

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Speaker 1: six CIOs, chief information officers and chief technology officers. Some

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Speaker 1: big names in there. If you flick through the report

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Speaker 1: and you're around the tech sector, you'll know some of

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Speaker 1: these people. They're really smart people, and I just get

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Speaker 1: a sense reading it that they're frustrated at some of

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Speaker 1: the issues that we face in the lack of progress

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Speaker 1: in the digital space. There are some strengths in there,

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Speaker 1: and maybe let's start on a positive note, you know,

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Speaker 1: in terms of where we're at in terms of our

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Speaker 1: digital infrastructure, our digital economy, the digital space in New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: What are our strengths at the moment in your eyes.

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Speaker 2: That's a really good question, Peter, And you're right about

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Speaker 2: the feeling that comes through. But there is some positiveness,

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Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, and I think it's more frustration that

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Speaker 2: we haven't made the most of what we've got. And certainly,

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Speaker 2: you know the structural separation of course on a telecom

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Speaker 2: the interesting just in a side there. I was actually

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Speaker 2: at chorus during that time, so you know, New Zealand

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Speaker 2: is a small place, so you move from one side

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Speaker 2: to the other, but absolutely believe in that the cio CTOs.

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Speaker 2: You know, there is some really amazing things happening in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand and the technology space, and they're really keen

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Speaker 2: to utilize New Zealand technology. The growth of high speed

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Speaker 2: broadband is you know, obviously a key underpinning to so

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Speaker 2: many things that gets done, and we see businesses taking

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Speaker 2: up those services, you know, more and more, where as

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Speaker 2: individuals were very quick to take it up, particularly during COVID,

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Speaker 2: you know, when we wanted to stream so much TV.

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Speaker 2: But you know, we're seeing different things being used. You know,

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Speaker 2: the difference between when I started and now on international cables,

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Speaker 2: the number of cables that we have coming into New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: so our connections to the world is so much better

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Speaker 2: and we see more of those occurring as well. So

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Speaker 2: you know, there is some real good things about our infrastructure.

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Speaker 2: We might be the last bus stop before Antarctica, but

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Speaker 2: we really do have great connectivity to the rest of

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Speaker 2: the world and inside our nation. Five GM mobile networks

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Speaker 2: and we're going to see some upgrades to those later

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Speaker 2: in the year when they all build their what's called

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Speaker 2: a standalone core so that's the core of the network

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Speaker 2: will be upgraded to five G and they'll be able

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Speaker 2: to provide some extra services that will be amazing for us.

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Speaker 2: We've done some amazing things in rural we shouldn't we

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Speaker 2: shouldn't you know, step back from some of the stuff

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Speaker 2: that's been done with the wireless ISPs, with the RCG.

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Speaker 2: You know, the idea of sharing infrastructure is so important

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Speaker 2: when it comes to the further out you get from urban.

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Speaker 2: So you know, it's easy sometimes to think about the

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Speaker 2: things we don't have, but we do have quite a lot,

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Speaker 2: and we have some very smart people. We just don't

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Speaker 2: have enough of them. Yeah, so there are some possibles.

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Speaker 2: And look, one of the interesting things was after writing

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Speaker 2: the report, obviously you do get sort of focused in

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Speaker 2: on what you think should happen next. And one of

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Speaker 2: our speakers at our recent event decided to ask is

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Speaker 2: AI tool you know, can you tell me what the

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Speaker 2: sense of positivity is from this report? It actually came

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Speaker 2: about at six out of ten, So it's not a

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Speaker 2: completely negative report. It's slightly positive. And when you talk

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Speaker 2: to the CEOs etc. About their perspective on where we

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Speaker 2: sit in the world, they do put us at about

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Speaker 2: a sex out of ten, so not all dream and gloom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and as you mentioned in there, things like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we've got pretty good e commerce legislation, online banking access,

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Speaker 1: although you were a little bit behind on the open

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Speaker 1: banking front, and it's something your predecessor, Ernie Newman is

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Speaker 1: still sort of talking about, you know, the competitive issues

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Speaker 1: that we have. But you know, there are some positives

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Speaker 1: there in terms of the challenges and the opportun unities

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Speaker 1: that we face. You know, they're pretty clear in there.

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Speaker 1: You talk about escalating cybersecurity risks and a bit of

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Speaker 1: complacency or under resourcing in that space, the persistent tech

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Speaker 1: talent gap, and we'll talk in more detail about that.

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Speaker 1: Digital inclusion is still not where it needs to be

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Speaker 1: in terms of resourcing and progress we're making on that.

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Speaker 1: But there was something more fundamental, I think underpinning at all,

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Speaker 1: which is really a lack of visible strategic government leadership

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Speaker 1: in the digital space. And I've been talking to a

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Speaker 1: lot of people about that. We've had a change of government,

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Speaker 1: but we are look eighteen months into this new government.

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Speaker 1: They've done some things in the innovation space, big shake

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Speaker 1: up underway, but let's face it, we still don't have

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Speaker 1: a national digital strategy, do we.

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Speaker 2: So look, I think you're right, Peter, we don't have

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Speaker 2: a national digital strategy, even though the government has talked

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Speaker 2: it up and certainly when they were in opposition they

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Speaker 2: were absolutely committed to using digital technology as a key

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Speaker 2: growth platform. I think, you know, we'll give them some

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Speaker 2: some we'll let off a little bit. They did a

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Speaker 2: lot of shifting and changing last year, but unfortunately that's

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Speaker 2: led to changes in their ministerial portfolios. But also I

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Speaker 2: understand that it's not quite clear on who's taking ownership

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Speaker 2: of digital transformation within government. It's just a bit too

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Speaker 2: spread out. I think the other thing is we haven't

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Speaker 2: seen a strategy for the use of AI, and we

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Speaker 2: certainly know that it's a big topic of discussion aroundst

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Speaker 2: MPs ministers and also on the security side. You know,

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Speaker 2: the thing that we're looking for is not necessarily some great, big,

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Speaker 2: long document, but it is something where government takes leadership.

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Speaker 2: There's such a big part of our economy, of our

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Speaker 2: population and what they do with just even everyday individuals.

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Speaker 2: Having some sense of a direction that they want the

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Speaker 2: nation to go in I think is really important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that sort of leads me to my question,

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Speaker 1: what would an effect of strategy look like in your view?

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Speaker 1: What are some of the sort of first practical steps

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Speaker 1: that would need to happen. Obviously it has to be

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Speaker 1: government and industry and other stakeholders groups in society working together.

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Speaker 1: But you know, how do you start putting this together.

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Speaker 1: What's your sort of dream, sort of list of things

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Speaker 1: that could be got off the ground relatively quickly or

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Speaker 1: should be included in a strategy.

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Speaker 2: I think what we've got to be aware of and

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Speaker 2: quite clever around is the fact that technology moves so quickly,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, if we want to spend months

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Speaker 2: and months trying to work up a strategy developing regulation,

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Speaker 2: we're going to be left behind. And that is different

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Speaker 2: from the way government normally works. So we're quite clear

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Speaker 2: on that. You're absolutely right, it's got to be a collaborative.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be a collaborative approach government. You're actually

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Speaker 2: you know, we've talked about that they're a big part

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Speaker 2: of the economy. They take leadership, but we recognize, and

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Speaker 2: the digital leaders did as well, that they need to

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Speaker 2: be engaged and involved. And it's not just the technology

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Speaker 2: industry that will be our export base. But if we

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Speaker 2: want to grow our economy and grow productivity, then it's

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Speaker 2: the other businesses also that need to pick up digital

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Speaker 2: and do digital transformation. So I think that's the first

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Speaker 2: place is trying to get those perspectives together and come

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Speaker 2: up with some overriding direction, whether you want to call

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Speaker 2: it a vision or just a sense of direction, and

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Speaker 2: without getting to engage. I mean, the last government did

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Speaker 2: have a digital strategy, but it was quite a thick

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Speaker 2: document and they're basically done it them I wouldn't say

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Speaker 2: they've done it themselves. That's a bit unfair, but it

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Speaker 2: wasn't as collaborative as it could have been. And I

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Speaker 2: think what we need to do is something that will

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Speaker 2: be able to be flexible and live and change as

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Speaker 2: we go. Certainly, you know, if you talk three years ago,

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Speaker 2: we wouldn't have been talking about AI as much as

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Speaker 2: we're talking about it now. And it's just a classic

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Speaker 2: example of something that can just turn things upside down.

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Speaker 2: So you've got to be able to react and cope

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Speaker 2: to those sort of technology changes. You know, as well

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Speaker 2: as I repeted it, we see amazing technology, you know,

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Speaker 2: sort of coming and sometimes it takes a long time

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Speaker 2: to come and then suddenly it's here, and so you know,

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Speaker 2: you do have time to get ready for it, but

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Speaker 2: you probably don't you think that way, and then suddenly

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Speaker 2: you've got to do something. So it's not easy. I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying it's going to be easy to sit down

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Speaker 2: and do something like this, but it is a conversation

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Speaker 2: and a sense of direction that we really need.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot of people in the tech

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Speaker 1: community viewed the fact that Judith Collins was having this

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Speaker 1: tech portfolio elevating the position off these sorts of issues,

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Speaker 1: had a bunch of portfolios that seemed to complement each other,

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Speaker 1: the digitizing government portfolio. But the reality is, and obviously

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Speaker 1: she's out of most of those portfolios now in favor

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Speaker 1: of Shane Retti, who's a very competent minister. But there's

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Speaker 1: a sense we've lost momentum. There's been a few random,

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Speaker 1: sort of individual initiatives, and look, we are in a

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Speaker 1: constrained time in terms of government putting money into new

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Speaker 1: initiatives like digital inclusion and that sort of thing. But

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Speaker 1: there's a sense halfway through this term that it's sort

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Speaker 1: of lost momentum. Will that be fair.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right, Peter, and it certainly comes through,

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Speaker 2: you know, a radious specific section in the report on

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Speaker 2: the reaction of CEOs etc. Two Government and we asked

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Speaker 2: them the specific question, We said, what have you seen

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Speaker 2: from this government? And that's where things like the invisible

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Speaker 2: government term came out. Disappointment I think as well. I

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Speaker 2: think you're right. There was a real excitement that we

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Speaker 2: could build on what had been done and that this

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Speaker 2: government was going to be really focused on. And look,

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Speaker 2: no disrespect to the ministers themselves, because they are very

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Speaker 2: you know, passionate and they are good people, but they

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Speaker 2: are loaded up. So Minister Collins was given you know,

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Speaker 2: a large number of portfolios and so not everything gets

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Speaker 2: the focus that it might necessarily deserve. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: on that basis, that's why I think we've said government

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Speaker 2: leadership is important, and the leaders that we've been talking

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Speaker 2: to are you know, saying there's a gap there.

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Speaker 1: Drilling down into some of the issues that you've identified.

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Speaker 1: A perennial one that comes up as cybersecurity risk. The

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Speaker 1: risks are escalating and AI is increasingly having a role

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Speaker 1: to play in that. Also in defense of cybersecurity, which

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Speaker 1: is great. But yeah, look everywhere every time I talk

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Speaker 1: to cio CTOs, they just sort of say, lookd A's

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Speaker 1: frustration within their own organizations around how seriously cybersecurity is taken.

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Speaker 1: What's sort of at the height of our reluctance to

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Speaker 1: as a nation and individually as businesses and consumers even

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Speaker 1: to really take this seriously.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a couple of things. And look, this

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Speaker 2: one is not going to go away as far as

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Speaker 2: I'm concerned. It's been you know, every one of the

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Speaker 2: five reports we've done, this has been one of them.

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Speaker 2: And it just keeps going. And you know, we could

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Speaker 2: look at the stats and talk to people anecdotally about

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Speaker 2: the challenges their face every day and they attack vectors

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Speaker 2: that they're saying every day, you know, just growing all

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Speaker 2: the time. And you talked about AI, the weaponization of AI.

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Speaker 2: You know, on both sides of the of the of this.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a couple of things that play into

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Speaker 2: New Zealand. One is, you know I talked about earlier,

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Speaker 2: we are well connected to the world. We are no

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Speaker 2: longer that large little country halfway around the world. We're

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Speaker 2: seen as an easy pick by some actors as not

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Speaker 2: necessary to get access to things in New Zealand, but

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Speaker 2: to get to go through us to other environments in

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Speaker 2: other countries. So that's disappointing obviously, But it's that she'll

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Speaker 2: be right attitude, I think particularly from individuals. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm nobody, Why would it happen to me, Well, you

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Speaker 2: can be used to get access to somebody else, so

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Speaker 2: it may not be you, But we are just one.

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Speaker 2: We are part of the global population when it comes

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Speaker 2: to digital where microseconds from anywhere in the world. And

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Speaker 2: I think in the corporate space, you know, boards in

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Speaker 2: particular have been dealing with significant issues over the last

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Speaker 2: five ten years. Health and safety became a really big one,

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Speaker 2: and so maybe security sort of got pushed down the list.

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Speaker 2: And of course those sort of compliance issues, security issues

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily easily convert to ROI and revenue and profit

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Speaker 2: and all those sorts of things, and it's they're just

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Speaker 2: being over I don't know whether they're seeing it and going, well,

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Speaker 2: the risk isn't that great. Well, actually the risk is

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Speaker 2: pretty great, and most CTOs are the ones at the

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Speaker 2: forefront of that and trying to convince their boards. If

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Speaker 2: you don't take security seriously, you could end up being

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Speaker 2: someone like Marks and Spencers. In the UK, there's been

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Speaker 2: a couple of big occurrences over there that have I

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Speaker 2: think should be wake up.

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Speaker 1: Calls OPTUS In Australia that was the big one in

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Speaker 1: this part of the world, which led to legislation change

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Speaker 1: in terms of the penalties for data breaches, which has

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Speaker 1: been pointed to here. We have very low penalties ten

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars fine for Privacy Act breaches, so that is

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Speaker 1: an issue in terms of what the government is doing.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of consternation about, you know, the

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Speaker 1: CERT Organization being folded into the National Center for Cybersecurity

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Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, what the government is doing

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Speaker 1: with the malware free networks and with CERT. What's your

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Speaker 1: sense on how prepared we are or how well resourced

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Speaker 1: we are as a nation to tackle some of these

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Speaker 1: big issues trying to identify and intercept these big threats,

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Speaker 1: whether they're cyber criminal, criminals trying to scam us, or

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Speaker 1: even some of the state based stuff trying to disrupt

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Speaker 1: us for geopolitical reasons.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's perennial, Christian Peter and I don't think we'd

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Speaker 2: ever have enough resources in there, but we've got some

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Speaker 2: really good people. But I think, you know, certainly that

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Speaker 2: folding of CERT into n CSC was in air pluses

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Speaker 2: and minuses. I mean, I think the pros are that

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Speaker 2: it's a lot closer to the mechanisms that are watching

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Speaker 2: what's happening around the world and the learnings and those

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Speaker 2: sorts of things. But what we lost in the immediate

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Speaker 2: moment was actually the ability to communicate and collaborate with

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Speaker 2: organizations and with businesses. And certainly I've been talking to

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Speaker 2: them over the last couple of weeks and saying, look,

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Speaker 2: you've really got to up the game and get back

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Speaker 2: out there and talk to people, because that's what is

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Speaker 2: going to make the difference when it comes to collaboration.

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Speaker 2: So we're very keen to work with them on getting information,

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Speaker 2: but building pathways backwards and forwards because businesses, particularly large corporates,

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Speaker 2: rely on information that comes from there. And I'm also

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Speaker 2: with you, Peter, you know, talking about what happened in

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Speaker 2: Australia and the changes. I mean, we haven't seen those

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Speaker 2: happen here, and I really do not want a large

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Speaker 2: incident to be the cause of things changing here. You know,

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Speaker 2: we really do need to get into that and unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: as I said at the beginning, this is not one

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Speaker 2: that's going to go away. We're just going to have

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Speaker 2: to keep working at it.

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Speaker 1: And I guess related to that, you know, cybersecurity experts

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Speaker 1: are really hard to recruit. The big issue I think

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Speaker 1: that you've identified in twenty twenty five among priorities is

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Speaker 1: this persistent tech talent gap. We sort of had this

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Speaker 1: weird situation. We always have struggled to get tech people here,

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Speaker 1: so we've made it attractive for people to come to

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Speaker 1: New Zealand to fill that gap. Then we had a

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Speaker 1: bit of a softening off the labor market. Now of

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Speaker 1: course we've seen an exodus of people because of the

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Speaker 1: soft economy here, people looking for greener pastures. So I

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Speaker 1: think it's getting intense again. And we've seen the government,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've seen digital nomad visas. We've seen the

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Speaker 1: golden sort of visas for people who want to invest

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Speaker 1: maybe in startups in New Zealand, put some money in

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Speaker 1: and come and get a pathway to residency. So hopefully

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Speaker 1: we'll get Google ex Google executives and people coming to

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Speaker 1: New Zealand. But this is a persistent thing, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: And we had an industry transformation plan for digital workforce

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Speaker 1: and that sort of stuff got knocked on the head.

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Speaker 1: Funding was pulled. What have we got now?

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Speaker 2: You know, I want to talk about the IP for

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Speaker 2: a minute, because there's a lot of work that went

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Speaker 2: into that. And look, whether you liked the concept of

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Speaker 2: IP across the board, what happened where they just knocked

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Speaker 2: all the IPS on the head was really a step

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Speaker 2: backwards for technology because we had it was the first

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Speaker 2: sign of actually working together to try and figure out

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Speaker 2: what the funnel looks like. And certainly, you know post COVID,

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Speaker 2: when you talk to most of the CEOs et cetera,

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Speaker 2: they were talking about immigration settings. Well, we've done quite

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Speaker 2: a bit of work in that space, but certainly over

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Speaker 2: the last two years they've talked more about how do

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Speaker 2: we grow this home grown talent or encourage New Zealanders

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Speaker 2: to come back in these areas that we need them.

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Speaker 2: And they're not always what you'd consider to be general

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Speaker 2: tech that you're right, you know, the cybersecurity experts, the

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Speaker 2: AI people, the data scientists. It's not just the code

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Speaker 2: is that we need. It's a whole range of things.

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Speaker 2: And there's been some changes since this government came in

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Speaker 2: that you know, haven't really made any real help. So

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Speaker 2: you've seen the ip GO and then the announcements around

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Speaker 2: post tertiary or sorry tertiary education, so certainly vocational education changes.

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Speaker 2: You know, this government came in with a particular policy

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Speaker 2: where they wanted to unwind Tipookinger and it's driven I

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Speaker 2: think a whole lot of activity and actions that haven't

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Speaker 2: worked in the favor of the technology industry. And so

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Speaker 2: because what we've talked about is there has to be

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Speaker 2: a number of ways that people can get into this space.

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Speaker 1: And I want to talk particularly about one development that

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Speaker 1: is live at the moment. There's consultation going on about this.

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Speaker 1: This is the winding down of the so called workforce

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Speaker 1: Development Councils, which were set up in twenty twenty really

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Speaker 1: as a response to COVID. They are being replaced by

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Speaker 1: these industry standards boards, and the Tertiary Education Commission has

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Speaker 1: pointed out upfront there's going to be less funding for them.

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Speaker 1: These are going to be boards that focus on vocational

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Speaker 1: education things like internships, apprenticeships, cadet ships. But the list

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Speaker 1: of boards that they're looking to set up, the very

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Speaker 1: traditional construction infrastructure, trades, that sort of thing. Then you've

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Speaker 1: got tech sort of bundled in with manufacturing. And I've

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Speaker 1: seen a press release from Tuhas and other tech leaders

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Speaker 1: basically saying this isn't good enough. We need a dedicated

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Speaker 1: focus on the digital and creative economies, which includes things

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Speaker 1: like video games.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely, We've been talking about this for years. So

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Speaker 2: this is where, you know, if we want more people

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Speaker 2: to take up these roles within digital technology transformation, all

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Speaker 2: these different ones, we've got to think outside the box.

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Speaker 2: It can't just be you go to university and to

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Speaker 2: get a degree, because not everybody can afford to go

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Speaker 2: to university, not everybody has the capacity to do what

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Speaker 2: you do at a university. There's got to be other pathways.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Peter, we've done some little things where

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Speaker 2: we've gone and talked to students in areas which you

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Speaker 2: typically probably wouldn't consider where people would go into tech

431
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 2: degrees and ask them why don't you consider tech? And

432
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 2: it usually comes down to, well, i've got to look

433
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: after the family or i've got to you know, it's

434
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: not an easy path. I can't see myself going to university.

435
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 2: So these ideas of internships and apprenticeships and you know,

436
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 2: different pathways into this US so critically important for us,

437
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 2: and yet this announcement and proposal is basically just going, well,

438
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 2: we're just going to focus in on the traditional ones.

439
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: Well yeah, great, but give us an id ISD or

440
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 2: do IDC or whatever you want to call it for

441
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 2: digital technology, because putting technology in with manufacturing isn't really

442
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: the answer. And actually, if you look at it, any

443
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: technology qualifications or studies or tech digital, it's going to

444
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 2: go back to the NZQA framework at TEC. So there'll

445
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 2: be no if it put into encouraging these others. Now,

446
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 2: I do want to say, Peter, there are some organizations,

447
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: private sector organizations that are looking at these things and

448
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: implementing them themselves, but that's only going to scratch the

449
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: surface in such a small way. I mean, or credit

450
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: to them, but they're not getting a support that they're

451
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 2: need or being able to roll it out further. So

452
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: you know, I'm really disappointed because I think this we've

453
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 2: missed a trick. We're mister trick.

454
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: Yet, Yeah, totally, Like I talked to the likes of

455
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: Data Common that and to their credit, you know, they

456
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: are putting money into cadet chips and internships and that

457
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: sort of thing. You've got the vendors that are going

458
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: really hard on saying we're going to train one hundred

459
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: thousand people. This is Microsoft, but on their technology stack.

460
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: You know, that's understandable. A WS will do the same,

461
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: salesforce will do the same. We can't just rely on

462
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: these sorts of initiatives. We need to have a strategic

463
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: approach to how we build this digital workforce, and.

464
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: They need a lot of other skills other than just

465
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: knowing how to use you know, the copilot stack or

466
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: the aw stack. They need to have critical thinking because

467
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 2: you know, as we talked about earlier, digital technology changes

468
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: so quickly that what they're learning today it's maybe on genai,

469
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: will not be what they need to work on in

470
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 2: ten years time. You know, quantum computing will be here,

471
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 2: so we'll be doing other things, and we'll be doing

472
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 2: so many other different things. They might be working in

473
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 2: the medical industry rather than in the in the straight

474
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: technology industry. They could be winging an amazing range of areas.

475
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 2: It could be in the agricultural sector. But they need

476
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 2: that capability to think in and know how these things

477
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 2: work rather than just knowing how to do a prompt

478
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: and copile it. Well, that's pretty unfair, but you know,

479
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 2: you get in the drift of what I'm talking about.

480
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think some submissions close on that proposal

481
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: for these new industry standards boards on May the twentieth,

482
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,239
Speaker 1: So really encourage people to have their say about that

483
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: and see if we can make some progress you and

484
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: put that in front of officials that basically making the

485
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: case for a dedicated digital technology and creative board that

486
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: gives a focus and hopefully some targets as well. How

487
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: many AI engineers are we going to need in the

488
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: next decade. If we don't know that, we've got nothing

489
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: to aim for, we're not going to make it.

490
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I said, disconnect. Have you read the government's

491
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: growth agenda? Technology is in there, and we heard the

492
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: Prime Minister over the weekend talk about technology is one

493
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: of those And yet here where we've got you know,

494
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 2: where we invest in our people that will make this happen,

495
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 2: We've got no investment and no framework to make it happen.

496
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: So I feel like there's you know, they're talking across

497
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: each other or not not lining things up. So that's

498
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: that's disappointing.

499
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: Okay, another one that is unfortunately disappointing is our progress

500
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: on digital is our progress on digital inclusion, you know,

501
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: paint the picture for us. At the moment. We've seen

502
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: a lot of initiatives that do great work at the

503
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: front lines sort of defunded, have lost their funding, some

504
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: government funding and the charitable funding is there at a

505
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: lower level, so some great initiatives unfortunately have gone. There's

506
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: less funding for those that remain. We did have, you

507
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: know a lot of work which you alluded to in

508
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: the broadband space, you know UFB, and the government's committed

509
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: to push that out even further. There's the Rural Connectivity Group,

510
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: the mobile operators are collaborating, so there's some good infrastructure

511
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: stuff going on. Where are the remaining gaps that we

512
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: really need to address when it comes to digital inclusion.

513
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: Let's start of the infrastructure space. I mean obviously remote rural,

514
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: and there are things you know, with copper turn off,

515
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: three G mobile going and networks being turned off. Those

516
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: can be dealt with and fixed. There are solutions, not

517
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: as many as I'd hoped and not as competitive as hope,

518
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: but you know, those are things and I don't think

519
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: the answer is which I've heard in some places, which

520
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: is Starlink's the answer or two reasons for that. One

521
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: is it's quite expensive and secondly, do you really want

522
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: to pull on your eggs in that basket? And you know,

523
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 2: we haven't talked about geopolitical scenarios, but that is one

524
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: of them. I think what we need to move on

525
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: from is is this build, build something big, because it

526
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: will fix most of the problem. And now we're at

527
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: the stage where we need to be thinking outwards in

528
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: which is who's not connected, Why aren't they connected? What's

529
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 2: leaving them behind? And if you as a government want

530
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: to digitize and you want to, you know, have people

531
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: interacting with you through digital technology, you're going to have

532
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: to look after people as well. You can't leave them behind.

533
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: And so there is the question around affordability for a

534
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: small but significant group. You know, it is something that's

535
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: that's important to look at. And we've certainly you shared

536
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: with the government over the years on some of the

537
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 2: solutions and they could they could look at and we've

538
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: tried to be very practical, so we haven't gone in

539
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: and go and spend X billion dollars and connect to

540
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: everybody we've gone look at those that are missing out

541
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: because they're missing out on other things. So you know,

542
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: why don't you roll this in And we've been talking

543
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: about connectivity being the fourth utility. So you need electricity,

544
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: you need water, you need roads, and you need to

545
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: be connected because you can't live and work in this current,

546
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 2: this day and age if you don't have those services.

547
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: So if you could get that built into that way

548
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: of thinking, I think, you know, that would be a

549
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: great start. But then you start to think about you know,

550
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: inclusion isn't just about being connected so you can text

551
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 2: your or message or do something like them. It is

552
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: around how you interact with others, how you and that's

553
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: certainly across the board. You know, keeping you connected with

554
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: people is really important. But then also it gives you

555
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: opportunities to think about, well, I can create a business

556
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: out of this. I can be connected, I can build something.

557
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: And also you know, as a young person, if you're

558
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: if you've got the tools and you learn those tools

559
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: and use them, it also opens you up to a

560
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: whole new world that you can live and working as well.

561
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: Other than just those and went back to those talking

562
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: about those traditional industries. You know, if you don't know.

563
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: If you don't connect it and don't have it, then yeah,

564
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: you can't see it. So where it's hard. Look, I'm

565
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: not going to say it's easy. It is difficult. It

566
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 2: is costly in some ways, but we have to start somewhere.

567
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there was an initiative under labor I think

568
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: it also came out of COVID really to subsidize broadband

569
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: for families that really needed it through the education lend.

570
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: So your kids are all in lockdown at home, here's

571
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: a subsidy on your broadband subscription to enable them to

572
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: learn from home. What's the status of that? Now? There

573
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: was talk about that being wound down, then it was

574
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: thrown a lifeline. Is it still going, No, it's gone gone.

575
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: It finished up last year. Yeah, So I mean disappointing

576
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: in one regard, but on the other side of it,

577
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, well, what can we use what

578
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: do we learn from that we can take forward? And

579
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: again you know, we came back to doing some work

580
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: around the numbers and then looking at it and going

581
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: why don't you simply use the mechanisms you have in

582
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: place with education and aministry of social development to help

583
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: people without trying to do something different because I mean,

584
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: we're not in the place of creating bureaucracy or regulations

585
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: for the sake of it. We really just want to

586
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: see outcomes to help people. Yeah, there's an infrastructure divide.

587
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: It goes to devices as well, the literacy being able

588
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: to use all of that. And now we've got artificial intelligence,

589
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: which risks sort of another divide. You know, I can

590
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: afford to have a Perplexity account and get great use

591
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: out of it and do all this great stuff with it.

592
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: But if you're using some of these free tools, you're

593
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: not going to get as quick results or as high

594
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: quality results. So I guess that's another layer on top

595
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: of it. When it digital equity. You've got this powerful

596
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: new tool, but who's actually going to have access to it?

597
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and every new tool is the same, isn't it, Peter.

598
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 2: So every new tool, you know, it can be used

599
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: for good or for bad, or you know, could broaden

600
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: the inequity. I'm with you too on the you know,

601
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: if these free tools don't give you as much. The

602
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: other danger is, of course with the free tools, is

603
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 2: everything you load into it goes into the tool, doesn't it. Sorry,

604
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: you know, you have to be careful around that, and

605
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: if you don't understand that, you may be giving up

606
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 2: stuff that you really don't want to.

607
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: Look, we've really not seen much from the government on

608
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: the AI front. There's guidance for the public sector, there's

609
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: a strategy in the works, and there will be some

610
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: guidance for business. But I think this really goes to

611
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: one of the key points you also make in there

612
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: is our risk aversion when it comes to technology adoption.

613
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: I think the CIOs and CTO said, you know, they

614
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: sort of rate us a six out of ten also

615
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: on our new tech adoption, which is not that flash.

616
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: You know, we're behind the ball on AI, so we

617
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 1: have an issue where some people won't necessarily be able

618
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: to access it because it's too expensive. But overall we

619
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: drag the chain and this has been a common theme

620
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: in New Zealand. Even though we've had all this great infrastructure,

621
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: we were slow to the cloud. We're slow to adopt

622
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: these advanced technologies, which is having implications for our productivity.

623
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: You know, after ten years of talking to members and

624
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,919
Speaker 1: consumers and businesses, what do you see has been key

625
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: to this?

626
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: If I knew the answer to that, Peter I'll be

627
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: out there selling it. But yeah, there is, and I

628
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 2: think it's just become exacerbated in the last couple of years.

629
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 2: Actually that this over cautiousness and perhaps lack of ambition

630
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 2: at a national level, which then flows down to decision makers,

631
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: is a concern. And all we can do is continue

632
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 2: to talk to them and say, well, how can we

633
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 2: help you understand what's coming down the track. I mean,

634
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 2: sorry to talk about turns for a minute, but we

635
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 2: always see what we do to two pillars. One is

636
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: our advocacy work, so that's the external stuff where we're

637
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: talking to decision makers, doing media work, all that sort

638
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: of stuff. You know, these sorts of reports. But these

639
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: reports do two things. They are for decision makers, but

640
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 2: we're also trying to help our members understand what's coming

641
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: down the track and how they can make use of it.

642
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 2: And maybe, look, maybe we haven't been as good as

643
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 2: we should have been in helping our members understand that stuff.

644
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes I get the message from some people

645
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: that oh, I just ask my vendor what's coming. Well,

646
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 2: that's great because that your vendor continue, but actually you

647
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: don't get the breadth of the interest and knowledge of

648
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 2: what's coming. So maybe we haven't done as good a

649
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 2: job as we could, and maybe that's a good learning

650
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 2: for us. But yeah, we're trying to help our members

651
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: understand you know, these things as well, and so that's

652
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: it's tricky for us as well to keep on top

653
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: of everything. But I mean I have I do have

654
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 2: a small sense of optimism that there are that you know,

655
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: if you get this sense from these people that is

656
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: an issue and it makes them think about it, and

657
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: the report is a discussion starter as well, so you know,

658
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: hopefully these sorts of conversations will help.

659
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: I'm optimistic as well. We've got some great people doing

660
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: great things with AI for instance, and U seeing some

661
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,439
Speaker 1: of the startups that are not really on the radar

662
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 1: yet that I'm talking to are just doing incredible work.

663
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: So I am optimistic about that. I think literacy and

664
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: education is key things that we need to crack and

665
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: that goes back to the workforce development and that as well.

666
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 1: But if we can maybe finish on a positive note,

667
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: if we can craig one major shift, you know that

668
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: we might be able to see in twenty twenty five

669
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: that could have a positive impact on the digital landscape.

670
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,720
Speaker 1: Is the one thing that if we got Shane Retti

671
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: and Judith Colins and that together and industry supported, we

672
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: might be able to get over the line. That would

673
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: make a difference.

674
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: I think the one thing I'd really like to see

675
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 2: is around the tech talent side, and it is about

676
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: developing a plan that enables multiple tracks into a career

677
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: in digital technology. And we have to think about things

678
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 2: like what makes it easier for underrepresented groups, because underrepresented

679
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 2: groups provide you know, there is a good reason for

680
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 2: doing you know, talking to them one is just the

681
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 2: right thing to do. But the other thing is that's

682
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 2: a whole pool of talent that we're missing out on

683
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 2: that could help us with our issue of not enough talent.

684
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 2: So you know, getting more women back into the work

685
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: you know, in the workforce, into digital terianformation, making it

686
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: easier for them to move in and out things like

687
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: fractional employment. But then there's also you know, I think

688
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: the vocational tracks will assist with people who are in

689
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: underrepresented groups. I mean, we're doing some little bits and

690
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: pieces around helping MALDI in PACIFICA. You know understand, you know,

691
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 2: what sort of career they can have, But we're only

692
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 2: a small organization. So I think if we could get

693
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: people talking about that and getting some of those pathways

694
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: stood up, I think they would make a huge difference.

695
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,479
Speaker 1: So a pretty clear call to action from Craig Young.

696
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: We need to get serious about tech skills. Not just

697
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: importing talent, yes, we'll continue to need to do that,

698
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: but getting industry and the education sector on the same

699
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: page to partner for better access to vocational training for

700
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: tech related skills. So, if you're in the tech sector,

701
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: get in a submission on the government's consolation about these

702
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: new industry skills boards. Tell them what you think. Let

703
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: them know that tech, digital skills, and the creative economy,

704
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: which includes things like video games, visual effects and the

705
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: film industry might need a specific focus and some funding

706
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: support to seed something decent with industry. I'll put a

707
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: link in the submissions page in the show notes. Just

708
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: go to the podcast section at Businessdesk dot co dot

709
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 1: nz to find it. Submissions are closing pretty soon May twenty,

710
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: so get one in quickly. Thanks to Craig for coming

711
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: on the podcast. The Business of Tech is streaming on

712
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast app. Get in touch with

713
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: your feedback and guest suggestions email me on Peter at

714
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 1: Peter Griffin dot co dot nz or via LinkedIn. I'm

715
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,959
Speaker 1: there most days. Next week, a Wellington based startup that's

716
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: just raised one million dollars, bought a competitor and is

717
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: using AI to change how scientific research is undertaken. To

718
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: next Tuesday for that, and I'll catch you then