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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: We are discussing the rise of research into psilocybin. That's

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Speaker 2: the act of compound in magic mushrooms in treating mental

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Speaker 2: health and addiction issues. A man who has been researching

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Speaker 2: this at length is Auckland University researcher Samuel Lasham, who

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Speaker 2: joins us on the program. Now, Samuel, very good, afternoon, you.

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Speaker 3: Hey, you too, thank you for having me on.

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Speaker 4: So everyone knows about magic mushrooms, but they may not

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Speaker 4: know about psilocybin, the active part. So briefly, what is

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Speaker 4: psilocybin and what is psilocybin therapy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so psilocybin is basically the active ingredient in the

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Speaker 5: mushrooms themselves. Once it comes into the body, it's converted

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Speaker 5: into another drug, cilicen, and it's essentially just a psychedelic

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Speaker 5: similar to LSD that a lot of people have heard about.

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Speaker 5: So that gets into your brain, causes a lot of sensory, bodily, auditory,

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Speaker 5: visual hallucinations, things like that. Psychedelic therapy is essentially the

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Speaker 5: use of that in a therapeutic context to try and

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Speaker 5: treat mental health disorders. Typically what we talk about is

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Speaker 5: psychedelic assisted therapy, So it's not just giving them this

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Speaker 5: drug and everyone gets better, but it's also done in

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Speaker 5: a whole regime of talking therapy and stuff your more

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Speaker 5: traditional therapy types alongside that as well.

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Speaker 4: You will tell us about how you administer it, because

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Speaker 4: classicandi depressants people take every day for years. But if

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Speaker 4: I was to sign up for psilocybin therapy, what would

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Speaker 4: actually happen? How many times do you take it? Where

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Speaker 4: what happens in the session? Sam?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So usually it's sort of anywhere from like one

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Speaker 5: to three sessions is how most of the people have

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Speaker 5: been doing it in clinical trials. Each of those sessions

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Speaker 5: someone takes the drug, but that is part of a

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Speaker 5: broader thing. So they'll be like, you know, sometimes quite

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Speaker 5: a few preparation sessions where people will go in, they'll

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Speaker 5: meet the therapists that might actually administer the dose, they'll

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Speaker 5: get familiar, they'll sort of talk through the things that

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Speaker 5: they want to work through. Then they'll have a dose session,

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Speaker 5: which will unlike the other sessions, which will be more

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Speaker 5: standard therapy for an hour that will be like a

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Speaker 5: solid whole day experience or like six to eight hours,

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Speaker 5: and then they have sessions of what they call integration afterwards,

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Speaker 5: and that's essentially trying to integrate things that you've learned

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Speaker 5: throughout that experience and so on and so forth back

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Speaker 5: into your life and trying to actually create lasting change

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Speaker 5: to get out of these negative thought patterns.

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Speaker 4: Really, what kind of dosages would people take of psilocybin?

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Speaker 4: Are we getting to the stage of hallucinations.

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Speaker 3: In a therapeutic context?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's difficult when we compare a clinical trial to

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Speaker 5: what happens in the real world because clinical trials they're

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Speaker 5: using pure psilocybin, whereas in the real world we're using mushrooms.

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Speaker 5: And until my research, not really anyone has any way

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Speaker 5: to actually look into and work out just how much

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Speaker 5: of that cellocybin is actually in the mushrooms they're consuming

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Speaker 5: in New Zealand.

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Speaker 4: Oh that's a good point.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Now, now looking at MESA analysis, so I was investigating

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Speaker 4: this and bringing together studies from John Hopkins and others

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Speaker 4: the university. The results they seem pretty strong with respect

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Speaker 4: to major depressive disorders and treatment resistant depression. So can

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Speaker 4: you describe the results that you're that you've seen.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So my study is very much focusing on real

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Speaker 5: world use, so we're not doing sort of the clinical

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Speaker 5: trial type stuff. Not many of our participants are using

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Speaker 5: They're not going through this sort of therapeutic pathway. They're

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Speaker 5: very much just people out there in the real world

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Speaker 5: picking mushrooms off the roadsides and consuming consuming them, some

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Speaker 5: of whom are using therapeutically, some are using for spiritual

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Speaker 5: or recreational purposes. As much greater diversity as you'd see

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Speaker 5: in clinical trials. But yeah, I mean, most of my

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Speaker 5: participants sort of say to me that they find, whether

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Speaker 5: they're people with mental health disorders or other people, that

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Speaker 5: they do find that this has been really beneficial to

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Speaker 5: their mental health. But that's not valid validated obviously up

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Speaker 5: by the rigorous nature of a clinical trial.

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Speaker 4: But it is illegal, isn't it To come across some

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Speaker 4: wood chips and you see some certain mushrooms there and

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Speaker 4: then you put them in your mouth. That's a highly

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Speaker 4: illegal activity, isn't it.

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Speaker 5: Sim Well, yeah, exactly, And a lot of the people

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Speaker 5: I talk to actually say to me that probably they

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Speaker 5: don't really find themselves that their mushroom use causes them

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Speaker 5: much harm. But the one real thing that does worry them,

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Speaker 5: that could cause them harm is actually that legal issue.

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Speaker 5: And I think that also creates a lot of stigma

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Speaker 5: for these people. And when we have people who, you know,

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Speaker 5: particularly the mental health context, a lot of the people

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Speaker 5: I talk to a people who have tried all of

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Speaker 5: the legal things and it hasn't worked for them. So

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Speaker 5: they've now turned to a point of their like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: well now I'm going to have to break this law.

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Speaker 5: And suddenly we have this intersection and we talk about

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Speaker 5: the stigmatization of people with mental health difficulties, but that's

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Speaker 5: now intersecting also with the stigmatization of people doing criminal activities,

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Speaker 5: and it can leave people in quite a vulnerable place.

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Speaker 2: It can also, you know, go the other way, can't it,

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Speaker 2: Simuel that I noted that in the article there was

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Speaker 2: a gentleman called Adam. I assume that was a pseudonym,

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Speaker 2: but he had a problem with methamphetamine and he used

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Speaker 2: psilocyber and magic mushrooms to aid in that addiction and

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Speaker 2: it worked for him. But he made a point in

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Speaker 2: that article that he's known some friends that have you know,

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Speaker 2: picked magic mushrooms and tried something similar and it's been

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Speaker 2: quite damaging to their overall mental health. So there is

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Speaker 2: that danger element if it's not in the therapeutic setting, right.

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Speaker 5: Well, yeah, and you know, I'd argue that's risk is

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Speaker 5: it doesn't get completely eradicated in a therapeutic setting as well. Right,

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Speaker 5: we're still really investigating and understanding this, and there's no

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Speaker 5: such thing as a silver bullet in this world, quite frankly,

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Speaker 5: but I think that comes. You know, we need to

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Speaker 5: learn to work out the science and better understand what

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Speaker 5: sort of people might be pushed in the right direction

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Speaker 5: and what sort of people might be pushed in the

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Speaker 5: wrong direction. And probably what is more the case is

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Speaker 5: what sort of settings and and things might cause more

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Speaker 5: positive or more negative experiences. I you know, someone taking

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Speaker 5: mushrooms where they have absolutely no idea what they're taking,

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Speaker 5: there's a chance they might have even picked the wrong thing,

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Speaker 5: and taking it out in the real world can be

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Speaker 5: vastly different too, using and using in a lab.

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Speaker 4: So why do you think it works? You know that

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Speaker 4: it seems there seems to be strong evidence that it

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Speaker 4: works in helping people with the depression. But is it

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Speaker 4: a chemical effect in the brain or is it that

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Speaker 4: a mystical experience breaks you out of you know, rumination

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Speaker 4: and the neural pathways. What's it called the default mode network?

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Speaker 4: Is it fixing your brain or resetting your brain by

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Speaker 4: knocking you out of a depressive rut? If you get

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Speaker 4: what I mean? Is it is it that the drugs

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Speaker 4: are medicating your brain or is it that the experience

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Speaker 4: is changing the way you perceive reality such that you

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Speaker 4: are no longer in a depressive cycle. I'm not sure

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Speaker 4: if I've asked a very easy to answer a question there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, it is.

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Speaker 5: It's a difficult one to work out, and I think also,

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Speaker 5: you know, I think we're still figuring out what it

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Speaker 5: actually does we see with antidepressants, people talked about that

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Speaker 5: being a chemical imbalance for so long and then actually

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Speaker 5: I think most of the evidence now is saying that

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Speaker 5: that doesn't really seem to be the case, and must

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Speaker 5: rooms are still working it out. I think the main,

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Speaker 5: the main explainer that people love to say is that

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Speaker 5: idea of you know, you get into this really entrenched

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Speaker 5: pattern of negative thought pattern and ruminating over on the

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Speaker 5: same things repeatedly, and this helps sort of snap you

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Speaker 5: out of that. I think, you know that there might

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Speaker 5: be something to that. I think a lot of people

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Speaker 5: who I talk to, they say it helps them sort

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Speaker 5: of step back and be a bit more objective about

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Speaker 5: what's going on in their life, how they're feeling, or

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Speaker 5: sort of do you try and reevaluate or think a

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Speaker 5: bit differently about where their brain's at and what's going

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Speaker 5: on in their life, and try to help them to

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Speaker 5: sort of move changes, sorry, make changes going forward.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think.

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Speaker 5: That's where this sort of integration thing happens as well.

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Speaker 5: That's a big part of psychedelic therapy at the end,

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Speaker 5: they have these sort of integration sessions of how do

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Speaker 5: we sort of bring this stuff back and make change

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Speaker 5: going forward? And that's a big thing I think that

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Speaker 5: a lot of people talk about when they're using is like,

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Speaker 5: it's not just taking mushrooms you've got to take you know,

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Speaker 5: it's doing that and then it's actually working through well,

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Speaker 5: what is this teaching me? What changes do I need

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Speaker 5: to make to actually improve the things I want to improve.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to get people experiences very shortly, but

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Speaker 2: in the meantime we are having a discussion with Auckland

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Speaker 2: University researchers Samuel Lasham who has been studying the use

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Speaker 2: of magic mushrooms and psilocybin around you New Zealand in

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Speaker 2: certain pockets. Sam, thanks very much again for your time.

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Speaker 4: Now, Sam, you're not, as you were saying before, so

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Speaker 4: focused on the clinical side of it. But I was

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Speaker 4: thinking about this is evidence hard to get because you

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Speaker 4: couldn't really run a placebo, could you, Because if you

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Speaker 4: give someone the sugar pool, they won't have a trip,

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Speaker 4: so they'll know that they are not in the actual trial,

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Speaker 4: if you see what I'm saying.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's almost like probably one of the biggest issues

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Speaker 5: I think with psilocybin, well, just with psychedelic clinical trials

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Speaker 5: in general, is how do you blind people?

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Speaker 3: And a lot of people have been like, oh, well.

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Speaker 5: What have you gave them a different psychedelic But then

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Speaker 5: usually most of the ones that people consume have similar

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Speaker 5: you know, work in similar ways, so that probably wouldn't work.

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Speaker 3: So it does make it very difficult.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but the body of evidence seen quite compelling. I

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Speaker 4: was read, I think was the John Hopkins stuff I

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Speaker 4: was reading and you might correct me if I'm wrong here,

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Speaker 4: but a lot of therapy they were using for people

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Speaker 4: that were terminal patients and it was interesting what they

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Speaker 4: were saying, which was not only did it help them

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Speaker 4: dealing with the depression and the struggle they were having there,

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Speaker 4: but it also they listed it as one of the

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Speaker 4: most important events in their lives experiencing this how differently

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Speaker 4: they saw the world. So whilst it is having trouble

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Speaker 4: in terms of, you know, doing double blind testing, there

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Speaker 4: seems to be quite a body of research that it

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Speaker 4: has such a strong success rate that it's hard to

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Speaker 4: definitely hard to ignore if someone was suffering a major

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Speaker 4: depressive disorder or a treatment resistant depression, is it possible

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Speaker 4: for them to reach out in New Zealand? How hard

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Speaker 4: is it for people to reach out for a legal

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Speaker 4: option in New Zealand to get treatment?

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Speaker 5: Very difficult, And I quite regularly talk about this people

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Speaker 5: that come in through my study actually because you know,

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Speaker 5: obviously we've got people trying to work out how to

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Speaker 5: go through this, and I think ideally people would love

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Speaker 5: to have a psychiatrist, a therapist and you know, do it,

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Speaker 5: do it the way that's been tested. Essentially, Currently, I

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Speaker 5: think we've only got two people in the country who

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Speaker 5: are approved.

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Speaker 3: To do psilocybin assisted.

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Speaker 5: Therapy, so that has now been approved, but only two people.

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Speaker 5: Only one of those, as far as I'm aware, works

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Speaker 5: with treatment resistant depression and New Zealand I think that's

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Speaker 5: in excess of ten thousand dollars to go through that

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Speaker 5: type of therapy, and overseas, I think Australia it's around

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Speaker 5: thirty thousand.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's similar prices.

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Speaker 5: Across the board around the world, So that's largely part

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Speaker 5: of private healthcare. It's largely because you know, we're talking

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Speaker 5: a lot of hours here. There's all these hours of

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Speaker 5: therapy before you go in. There's you know, close to

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Speaker 5: a day sat there with a psychiatrist just going through

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Speaker 5: the experience, and.

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Speaker 3: All the hours of therapy afterwards as well.

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Speaker 5: And then we've got the fact that the people doing

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Speaker 5: those hours is a psychiatrist as well, so it's not

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Speaker 5: exactly somebody who's hourly. Hourly raters is very low, so

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Speaker 5: all of that sort of compounds. And then weirdly, weirdly,

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Speaker 5: legal drugs are far more expensive than illegal ones, so

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Speaker 5: all of that sort of compounds to create quite an

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Speaker 5: expensive thing, and a large portion of the people that

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Speaker 5: really need access to this just can't access it. I mean,

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Speaker 5: through my study, I think less than what. Yeah, only

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Speaker 5: one person in my study ever, I think, had actually

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Speaker 5: had the opportunity to consume that consume psilocybin with a therapist.

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Speaker 3: So it's definitely hard to breach.

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Speaker 4: Now, I'm just gonna put my conspiracy theory head on

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Speaker 4: here for a second, right, You know, I don't necessarily

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Speaker 4: want to take it down this path, but surely big

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Speaker 4: Farmer hate this because it's one or two treatments rather

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Speaker 4: than years and years of daily treatments.

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Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I mean, you can talk about conspiracy theories,

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Speaker 5: but it's not helpful. You know. Conspiracy theories are often

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Speaker 5: embellishment of what goes on in the world rather than complete, complete, yeah,

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Speaker 5: complete fakeness.

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Speaker 3: I guess I.

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Speaker 5: I don't know of many big of many of the

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Speaker 5: sort of classical pharmaceutical companies that are getting involved in this,

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Speaker 5: And maybe maybe that is the case, maybe that there's not.

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Speaker 4: Not the same amount of lobbying going on the.

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Speaker 5: Same amount of Yeah, and you're seeing, you know, you're

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Speaker 5: starting to see a lot of a lot of most

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Speaker 5: of the companies in the psychedelic space now are very

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Speaker 5: much new companies, and we are starting to see sort

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Speaker 5: of people. I think there's a recognition that there's probably

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Speaker 5: not that much money to be made from producing the

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Speaker 5: drug itself because it's so widely available and I don't

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Speaker 5: think you can patent it. But there's definitely a movement

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Speaker 5: to sort of pattern aspects of the therapy and stuff

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Speaker 5: like this. But yeah, I can't really I don't know

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Speaker 5: whether big Farmer would be against it or not.

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Speaker 2: But it depends if they can make money. You know,

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Speaker 2: I don't think there's a conspiracy theory.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

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Speaker 4: And so just just because you know, we're talking about

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Speaker 4: something that people can just find if they know what

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Speaker 4: to look for. You know what, what what what are

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Speaker 4: the risks? What are the risks you're seeing?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, like you say, if you know what to

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Speaker 5: look for, I think that's a big one. We have

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Speaker 5: species in New Zealand that are most commonly forage. Species

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Speaker 5: is called Psilosa by subaiginosa.

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Speaker 3: Oh subs it's probably a better way to say that.

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Speaker 5: And there's a species that looks very very similar that

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Speaker 5: grows in the exact same environments often, you know, you

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Speaker 5: could see them growing literally side by side. And that

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Speaker 5: species member of gallery the Gallerina group. They contain some

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Speaker 5: of the same toxins as the deaf cap mushroom, which

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Speaker 5: everyone loves to talk about, particularly since that infamous murderer.

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Speaker 3: Over in Australia.

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Speaker 5: So there is a real risk there if you don't

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Speaker 5: know what you're collecting, of grabbing the wrong thing and

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Speaker 5: eating the wrong thing. And that's a very mushroom specific risk.

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Speaker 5: We've then got the fact that there's absolutely not really

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Speaker 5: there's not really many ways that people have access to

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Speaker 5: to really actually know the strength of the mushrooms they're consuming.

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Speaker 5: So that creates a lot of issues. You know, you

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Speaker 5: could a lot of issues, but you know, that can

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Speaker 5: be very difficult for people. You generally people I advise

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Speaker 5: them to take less to begin with, because you're never

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Speaker 5: going to know how strong things are and you can

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Speaker 5: always take more. And then, you know, that's the very

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Speaker 5: mushroom specific stuff. But then we've got the broader psychedelic

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Speaker 5: stuff of you know, make you've got to make sure

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Speaker 5: you're in the right place and the right headspace and

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Speaker 5: things to consume these and have a good understanding of

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Speaker 5: that because as as you mentioned before from one of

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Speaker 5: the texts, they can they can send you to hell.

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Speaker 5: You know, you can have a bad experience or what

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Speaker 5: research is called the challenging experience. A lot of people

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Speaker 5: do come out of those saying that I need to

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Speaker 5: be needed, to be challenged, and that ended up being

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Speaker 5: good for me. But I think when those are unexpected,

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Speaker 5: it is quite difficult to get through that.

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Speaker 2: Samuel, it's been great to chat with you. Thank you

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Speaker 2: very much for your time and hopefully we'll catch up

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Speaker 2: a little bit down the track.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: That is Auckland University School of Pharmacy, researcher Samulation.

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