WEBVTT - 20 years after Hurricane Katrina: How NZ can learn from disaster response 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:06.040 Kyotra. 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:09.200 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.400 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:17.800 Twenty years on and. 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:22.919 The devastation left behind by Hurricane Katrina is still being felt. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:27.320 The Category three hurricane made landfall on August twenty ninth, 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:32.960 two thousand and five, devastating parts of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:38.480 with New Orleans suffering catastrophic flooding due to levy failures. 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.760 About eighty percent of the city was inundated with water, 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:47.360 and while a mandatory evacuation order was made just one 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.280 day before landfall, many people up to one hundred and 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:56.480 fifty thousand did not or simply could not leave. The 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:01.120 official death toll is believed to be nearly fourteen. Later, 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:05.920 we'll speak to doctor Lauren Vannell Massi, University Senior lecturer 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:10.399 of Emergency Management, about how New Zealand's systems have evolved 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:14.520 over the years. But first on the Front Page, University 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.240 of Olbany Professor of political Science, Eric Stern is with 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:25.080 us to examine some of the painful lessons learned from Katrina. 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.039 So, Eric, you are a. 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:32.640 Crisis and emergency management specialist, tell me twenty years on, 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:37.560 what can we learn from what happened with Hurricane Katrina. 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:44.240 So Hurricane Katrina is really a pivotal event in the 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.280 history of emergency management in the United States. I think 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:52.680 there are lessons for many other countries in what happened 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.440 during Katrina. And actually, right at the outset, let me 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.920 say that while we often focus on what went wrong, 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.040 and most of the media reporting about what happened during 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:10.680 Hurricane Katrina focused on what went wrong, in fact, there 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.240 were many things that did go right. One of the 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.400 lasting images and probably we'll get back to that later 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:21.120 in terms of lessons, was the folks who got trapped 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:27.120 in New Orleans in the Superdome under horrific conditions, with 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:32.120 poor sanitation, toilets weren't working, issues with food and water, 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:37.040 issues with security, just horrendous conditions. But what a lot 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.880 of people don't know is that about eighty percent of 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:44.240 the population of New Orleans was evacuated by car. Before 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.400 that those were folks that had access to their own 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:51.160 vehicles or vehicles that were provided by friends or family. 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.600 And in fact, it was a textbook operation, very effective 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:01.200 what's called contra implementation of what's called contraflow, so they 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:07.040 take both sides of a major highway and have them 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.800 all going in the same direction, so you double the 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.720 bandwidth for exiting folks. As you can imagine, that's a 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.840 kind of tricky operation if people get on the highway 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.960 and the wrong direction. I guess, as tourists in New 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:25.640 Zealand probably sometimes do, since you guys are a drive 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.359 on the left, we drive on the right. That could 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:34.040 be very dangerous. And in fact, that was beautifully choreographed 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:38.160 by state police and others, and probably the most successful 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:43.800 evacuation Carboorne evacuation of a major city in modern history. 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:48.840 That being said, the problem was that about twenty percent 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.920 of the population ended up being left behind because the 0:03:53.360 --> 0:04:00.200 decisions were made too late and the vehicles that were 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.760 needed to get people out were not available, And there 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.200 were many, many different reasons for it. But I do 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.800 want to make a general point, which is that even 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.160 in a case which is branded a failure, there are 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:15.000 likely to be successes, and even in a case where 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.720 it's celebrated as a great success, there are often lessons 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:22.120 to be learned about things not to do as well. 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.080 And so what people like I do is to try 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.719 to put events like this under a microscope and try 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.920 to pick out the good performances from the less good performances, 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:35.120 the systemic issues to try to figure out how to 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.880 do better in the future. And I've really dedicated most 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.200 of my career to doing that. 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.080 In terms of Katrina and the events surrounding it, what 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:48.560 do they reveal about the importance of coordination between central 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:50.000 and local governments. 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.360 Well, so I just recently wrote an article about this, 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.760 which I think probably was what caught your attention. One 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.320 of the arguments that I make is that when it 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:06.039 comes to emergency response in these very large and complex disasters, 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:11.520 the chain of emergency response is only as strong as 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:17.640 the weakest link, and in fact, by definition, you're you're 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:21.239 going to have to work together across across these levels 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:25.920 of government, also across the public, private and nonprofit sectors, 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.039 and increasingly bringing in volunteers as well. One of the 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:34.480 problems during Hurricane Katrina was that local government was overwhelmed 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:39.880 by what was happening. The police force the fire, their 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.440 command and control was disrupted, a very human thing to do, 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.600 but a lot of people ended up trying to rescue 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:51.280 their their own loved ones. Number of studies have suggested 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.719 that an unusually high percentage of folks left their posts, 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.720 and that's something that you have to think about. One 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:03.160 of the world formal definitions social science definitions of disaster 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.000 is that and legal as well in the United States, 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.919 is that it's a situation that overwhelms the resources the 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:15.279 coping capacity of a jurisdiction. And so if the local 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:20.080 resources are not enough, you're going to need provincial or 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:25.839 central government, depending on how your system is organized. And 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:29.719 if the provincial is not enough, you need national Sometimes 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.240 you need international assistance as well. 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.960 In terms of the miss and disinformation. 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.120 Of course, Katrina was twenty years ago, but do you 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.159 think it's gotten just so much worse with the invention 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:44.960 of social media? I mean, how do emergency management, management 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.120 and managers get around that. 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.799 That's one of the biggest challenges that we face today 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:53.800 and there are a number of reasons for it. So, 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.400 first of all, as you said, the socio technical context, 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.839 the way we get our information today, the smart device 0:06:59.880 --> 0:07:04.920 is social media means that information just flows much much faster. 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.479 We now have artificial intelligence as well, which means that 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:14.160 people can can fake images during the which Hurricane Helene 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:18.600 in North Carolina. Recently, there was an image of a 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:24.280 crying child that became the iconic image of the event, 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.680 but it turned out to be a manufactured image and 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.240 if you if you look very closely at it, you 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.320 could see tells that had to do with the shadows 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.560 on the boat that she was in. So the problem 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:43.200 is that there there are various bad actors or sometimes 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.520 people who are playing dirty political tricks, that have an 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:52.840 interest in spreading bad information. Sometimes it's for financial reasons. 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.640 There are a lot of scams that try to separate 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:00.000 disaster survivors from their their property or their or their money, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.000 and these are people that are at their most vulnerable, 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:07.560 really terrible thing to do. Other times it's political motives, 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:12.000 you know, to to discredit the government's response to something. 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:15.000 We have in the United States a very polarized media 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.200 environment at the moment, and we've seen in a number 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:22.000 of events. Also during Hurricane Alina, North Carolina, there were 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:26.560 rumors spread that if you applied for aid from FEMA, 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.440 the Federal Emergency Management Agency, that they could confiscate your property. 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.360 People didn't dare to ask for help that was available 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.800 and was badly needed because they because of these rumors 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:42.400 and myths. So emergency managers have to try very hard 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.559 to get their message out in this very competitive, sometimes 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:48.840 toxic information environment. 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:53.040 I know that when you sit on the steps of 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:56.120 a ports where home was to, or sleep on a 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.520 cod in a crowded shelter, it is hard to imagine 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:04.720 a bright path. But that future will come. The streets 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.080 of Biloxi and Gulf Court will again be filled with 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.960 lovely homes and the sound of children playing. The churches 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.560 of Alabama will have their broken steeples minted in their 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:18.920 congregation's hall. And here in New Orleans, the street cars 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.559 will once again rumble down Saint Charles, and the passionate 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:24.920 soul of a great city will return. 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.480 In terms of Katrina, I know that leave no one 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.679 behind became a bit of a mantra there. How should 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:40.840 emergency managers make sure that the most vulnerable, like the elderly, disabled, 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.560 or people without a car, are included in all of 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:46.120 the plans well. 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.840 So, one of the important innovations in American emergency management 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:57.319 after Katrina is something called the whole community emergency management concepts. 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:03.360 And actually this is something that has national counterparts. The 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:09.760 United Nations has promulgated a whole society approach to disaster resilience, 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:14.000 which is actually quite similar and the whole I should 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:19.120 say the whole community strategy was developed in part in 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:22.800 dialogue with pure countries including New Zealand, that was doing 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:27.600 some similar things. UK resilience had some of the same elements, 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.840 but basically the idea was that in the past, the 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:38.240 people who made the emergency management plans often were elites 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.800 that were not always making an effort to capture the 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:46.520 needs of the whole community, and the community was often 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.800 not included. It was a very top down process and 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:57.160 often the most vulnerable socioeconomic groups, ethnic minorities, disabled folks, 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:01.199 their needs were not reports entered at the table when 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.199 the emergency plans were made. They might not have been 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:11.640 included in emergency management exercises. The facilities that are used 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:14.840 to shelter people may not have been adapted to their needs, 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:19.040 and often we're not. In fact, post Katrina, the whole 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:23.400 community doctrine says, no, you can't make those plans, you know, 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.760 just having the officials and the professionals. You have to 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.199 invite the community in, you have to bring in the stakeholders, 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:34.000 you have to have conversations. You have to plan and 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.400 prepare and develop capabilities such that the most vulnerable are 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:42.640 not left behind. In fact, they need special attention. And 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.199 we know that the most vulnerable are often the ones 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:50.440 that are hit hardest in disasters, both both in terms 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.199 of the health consequences and in terms of the financial impact. 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.959 What do you say is the most enduring image or 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:02.040 legacy of our haying Katrina four emergency managers? 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:03.400 Well, I guess anyone today. 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.920 So in terms of the images, again, I think it 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.520 was the folks who were left behind at the at 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:16.720 the Superdome. Or it was the contrast of President George W. 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:21.080 Bush congratulating his emergency manager on the great job that 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.880 he was doing, a guy named Michael Brown, so he said, 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.720 heck of a job, Brownie. And then two weeks later, Brown, 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:32.480 who was not a professional emergency manager, was fired. And 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:35.200 there are a bunch of reasons for that, and it 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:41.439 wasn't only his fault. Was a highly complex political environment, 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:49.040 and at that time FEMA was under the control of 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.840 the Department of Homeland Security, which it is now as well, 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:57.800 and there was there were complexities about or uncertainties about 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.600 who who was actually in charge what the the authority 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.680 of the FEMA administrator, who is the boss at FEMA, 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.760 what what authority that person would have there? There are many, 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.640 many aspects of the case that that are really memorable. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.920 We learned some things about the power of the private sector. 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.880 Uh turned out that the the way that the private 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:25.120 sector uh big box stores and uh soorts like Walmart, 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:31.720 they were more effective at moving vital supplies quickly sometimes 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:35.040 than the public sector. UH and and and some of 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:39.079 the things that they did we were in an improvised 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.240 way turned out to be very important. That was built 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:46.600 into that whole community idea that we we we need 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.560 to also draw so not only take care of everybody, 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.560 leave no one behind, but also draw on the resources 0:13:54.600 --> 0:14:00.560 of the whole society, including volunteers. Another legacy of Katrina 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.200 is a volunteer groups like the so called Cajun Navy. 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.240 These are folks with boats that go to two major disasters, 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.360 not just in Louisiana, but other parts of the country 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:16.040 too and help to rescue people when the public sector 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:22.880 official rescue services are completely overwhelmed. And actually that was 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.960 the case during the christ Church earthquakes as well. I'm 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.120 not as up to date on how things are in 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.920 New Zealand at the moment. But at that time, the 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:36.000 dominant mindset was if you have a big disaster, put 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.040 yellow tape around it and let the professionals do their job. 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:41.840 But if you have a disaster on the scale of 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.560 what happened in christ Church, there's just not enough official 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:51.800 responders to meet the needs. And so they had to 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:58.680 on the fly find ways of integrating community volunteers. And 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:03.080 here's the upside of the of the information technology that 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:08.000 we have. They use social media. To let me think, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.920 it was the student volunteer Army and the Farming Army 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:16.760 UH which was spontaneously brought volunteers and the farmers had 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:19.800 heavy equipment you know that could be used for debris 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:25.080 removal and other tasks to help get christ Church on 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:28.200 its feet again. Actually, the New Zealand story there is 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.960 has been well documented and it's something that that other 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:34.440 parts of the world have learned from. 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.120 Thanks for joining us, Eric, that's a pleasure. 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:49.800 From earthquakes and eruptions to flooding and cyclons, New Zealand 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:54.040 has dealt with its fair share of natural disasters. Senior 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:58.800 Lecturer of Emergency Management at Massi University, Doctor Lauren Vannell 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.800 joins us to discuss what we could learn from the 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:08.640 failings of Katrina twenty years on. Lauren, we've just been 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.200 speaking about how the US emergency management works between federal, 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.320 state and local agencies. 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.760 How does New Zealand's work and is there good communication there. 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:21.480 Yeah, so we're a little bit lucky in some regards 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.200 being a bit smaller in New Zealand. Obviously we don't 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.640 have the federal system to worry about. That chain of 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.240 communication between you know, local people on the ground and 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:36.560 our national central government. It's a bit it's stronger, it's 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:38.680 more direct because there are fewer links in that chain. 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.800 So you know, it tends to work quite well. Obviously. 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:44.840 You know a few years ago we shifted from having 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.240 a Ministry of Civil Defense Emergency Management to having the 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.920 National Emergency Management Agency, which was a bit of a 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.040 bit of a shakeup. I think, you know, generally that's 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:54.960 been there's been a good change. I think it's helping 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.040 things work better. But you know, that's not to say 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.240 that we still can't improve these things. So where eagerly 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:05.760 anticipating more details of the Emergency Management Bill, which one 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.159 of the main points there is to help clarify some 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:12.360 of the roles and responsibilities at different levels, to help 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:14.440 sort of streamline some of that communication. 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:19.280 Is the communication something that we have gotten better at 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:20.959 over time here in New Zealand. 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.960 I think definitely communication during crisis or emergencies in New 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.399 Zealand has improved over time. It varies a little bit 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.719 depending on the nature of the natural hazard event. So 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.000 you know, for example, as we saw during Cyclone Gabriel, 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.440 a lot of damage to the communication infrastructure made that 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.760 a challenge. It wasn't necessarily, you know, issues with the system, 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:46.240 but it's really hard to communicate when you don't have 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:50.280 self and coverage or internet connection. So definitely we're wanting 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.240 to try to find ways that we can allow communication 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:55.440 to occur between people on the ground to know what's 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:59.720 happening people outside the region, providing support in instances where 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.840 we may not have the full range of technological options 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:04.000 available for communication. 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:08.359 When looking at Katrina, it's hard not to think about 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:12.639 what happened at the Superdome, right, so sixteen thousand evacuees 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:17.440 ended up there. They faced failed generators, poor security, dwindling supplies, 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.239 overflowing toilets. I mean, how important is it in an 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:26.520 emergency management crisis planning, so pre planning for these kind 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.399 of events just to make sure that you have the 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.360 places and supplies ready to go. 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.800 Yeah, it's absolutely vital for a couple of reasons. So obviously, 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.359 once people are there, we want them to be safe. 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.880 We don't want to have hygiene issues leading to people 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.520 getting sick. You know, we need to make sure people 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.879 are comfortable and being looked after. But we also know 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:50.679 that if people don't have a if they don't know 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.880 where those shelters are, or if they don't think it's 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.320 going to be a good environment, they're less likely to evacuate. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:00.480 So actually, one additional benefit of you know, communitating to 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.119 people where the shelters are, what they can expect that 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:05.880 we're ready to look after them, is that those people 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.000 are going to be more likely to evacuate and take 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:12.159 themselves out of danger with something like a storm or 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.680 a flood event if we're able to get more warning. 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.560 What what we'd like to see is also people considering 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.119 maybe whether they can go and stay with friends or relatives. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.960 Any pressure we can take off those temporary evacuation shelters. 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:28.520 We obviously don't want, you know, sixteen thousand people descending 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:32.240 on a single place. Even if it's well prepared dealing 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.360 with that larger group, it's always going to be a challenge. 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.720 Yeah. One thing Eric said to me that was quite 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:41.600 interesting and something that they learned from Katrina, is that 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:45.359 the impact of private companies and private businesses. 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.440 He mentioned Walmart being really good at. 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:54.400 Not surprisingly, getting produced across large from parts. 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:54.800 Of the country. 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.160 Do you reckon that's something that New Zealanders do well, 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.080 because I know that looking back at some of there 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.719 are natural disasters, there is that community spirit really in 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:06.800 New Zealand already, right. 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.760 Yeah, absolutely, And I mean it's easy to look at 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.080 Katrina and focus on all the bad that happened, but 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.400 there were some really good things that were seen during 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:19.520 that event. You know, corporations, businesses standing up to help people. 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.399 You know, people helping their neighbors, helping their friends, helping strangers. 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:28.320 Contrary to popular belief, disaster zones they're not usually full 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.840 of you know, crime and looting. It is usually people 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.680 helping each other. The private company is an interesting one. 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:40.880 I'm not entirely sure how much of that plays into 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:44.520 consideration around planning, but I know, for example, with the 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.879 new Emergency Management bill that's being worked on, there's going 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.840 to be consideration around roles and responsibilities for groups that 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.240 maybe haven't so much been officially included in the past. 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.560 I'm thinking particularly Ewe and Harper. We know in New 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:03.400 Zealand our Mardi community is really really good at standing 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.240 up and looking after you know, themselves, but also other 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:10.240 members of the community. The private company one is an 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.960 interesting question though. Definitely. You know, if we can find 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.520 anyone who's able to help take some of that burden 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:18.840 off of a disaster response is going to be helpful. 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:23.359 How has New Zealand's emergency management framework changed over the years, 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.239 do you think well? Or are we really waiting to 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:28.399 see what ends up happening with this bill? 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:32.040 So, I mean, I definitely I think the bill is 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:36.159 going to be a good step forward. So that the 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:38.919 Civil Defense Emergency Management Act that we've got at the moment, 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.359 it is from two thousand and two, so it's quite old, 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:44.720 but I mean there obviously has been amendments to that 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.480 to update it. A lot of you know, the work 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.320 that's done is based on the National Plan, which I 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.399 think our current one is from twenty fifteen. How local 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:59.040 seed and groups update their group plans regularly, so it's 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:02.439 not like we're still working to what we knew in 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.879 two thousand and two. But the update to some of 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.879 that underpinning legislation, I think is going to help move 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.320 forward towards more where we would want our emergency management 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:13.919 system to be. 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:18.080 And lastly, how do you think New Zealand's emergency management 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.720 response differs to that of the rest of the world. Say, 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:24.600 what do we do better and what are some things 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:26.280 that we can perhaps do better? 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:33.160 In yep, that's a great question, I think definitely, As 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:36.399 sort of I was saying, because we are a little 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.720 bit smaller, we have, you know, fewer levels of bureaucracy 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.639 than places like the US or Australia, which also has 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:45.720 a federal system, we can be a bit more agile. 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.040 It can be easier to get resources around where they 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:53.359 need to be, you know, including people in personnel. I 0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:57.520 think one issue is that we have so many events 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.000 because we are prone to a lot of different nets 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:02.840 hazards that we see quite a lot of turnover and 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.960 quite a lot of burnout amongst our emergency management personnel. 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:10.800 All great people, really really passionate, but it is really 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:16.439 hard work. So I think more support for the people 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:22.399 doing this work, you know, including professionalization, so training, but 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:26.200 also in a psychological support helping them cope with the 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.280 you know, the challenges and difficulties of responding to these events, 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:32.480 so that you know, after one major event, we don't 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:34.800 then lose everyone because they're too tired and burnt out, 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.800 and then next time it's people going through it again. 0:23:37.880 --> 0:23:41.160 It'll be great to see more of that experience retained 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:42.000 within the system. 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:44.280 Thanks for joining us, Lauren al. 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:45.120 Race, thanks for having me. 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:50.879 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:54.680 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:58.600 at NSID Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.840 is produced by Janey and Richard Martin, who is also 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:02.679 our editor. 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:04.720 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:08.280 Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:11.639 get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:13.160 look behind the headlines.