1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Kyotra. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: Twenty years on and. 5 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 2: The devastation left behind by Hurricane Katrina is still being felt. 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: The Category three hurricane made landfall on August twenty ninth, 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: two thousand and five, devastating parts of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 2: with New Orleans suffering catastrophic flooding due to levy failures. 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: About eighty percent of the city was inundated with water, 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: and while a mandatory evacuation order was made just one 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: day before landfall, many people up to one hundred and 12 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: fifty thousand did not or simply could not leave. The 13 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 2: official death toll is believed to be nearly fourteen. Later, 14 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: we'll speak to doctor Lauren Vannell Massi, University Senior lecturer 15 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 2: of Emergency Management, about how New Zealand's systems have evolved 16 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: over the years. But first on the Front Page, University 17 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: of Olbany Professor of political Science, Eric Stern is with 18 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: us to examine some of the painful lessons learned from Katrina. 19 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: So, Eric, you are a. 20 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 2: Crisis and emergency management specialist, tell me twenty years on, 21 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 2: what can we learn from what happened with Hurricane Katrina. 22 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 3: So Hurricane Katrina is really a pivotal event in the 23 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 3: history of emergency management in the United States. I think 24 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 3: there are lessons for many other countries in what happened 25 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 3: during Katrina. And actually, right at the outset, let me 26 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 3: say that while we often focus on what went wrong, 27 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 3: and most of the media reporting about what happened during 28 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 3: Hurricane Katrina focused on what went wrong, in fact, there 29 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 3: were many things that did go right. One of the 30 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: lasting images and probably we'll get back to that later 31 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 3: in terms of lessons, was the folks who got trapped 32 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 3: in New Orleans in the Superdome under horrific conditions, with 33 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 3: poor sanitation, toilets weren't working, issues with food and water, 34 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: issues with security, just horrendous conditions. But what a lot 35 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 3: of people don't know is that about eighty percent of 36 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 3: the population of New Orleans was evacuated by car. Before 37 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 3: that those were folks that had access to their own 38 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 3: vehicles or vehicles that were provided by friends or family. 39 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: And in fact, it was a textbook operation, very effective 40 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: what's called contra implementation of what's called contraflow, so they 41 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 3: take both sides of a major highway and have them 42 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 3: all going in the same direction, so you double the 43 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 3: bandwidth for exiting folks. As you can imagine, that's a 44 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 3: kind of tricky operation if people get on the highway 45 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 3: and the wrong direction. I guess, as tourists in New 46 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 3: Zealand probably sometimes do, since you guys are a drive 47 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 3: on the left, we drive on the right. That could 48 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: be very dangerous. And in fact, that was beautifully choreographed 49 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 3: by state police and others, and probably the most successful 50 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 3: evacuation Carboorne evacuation of a major city in modern history. 51 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 3: That being said, the problem was that about twenty percent 52 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 3: of the population ended up being left behind because the 53 00:03:53,360 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 3: decisions were made too late and the vehicles that were 54 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 3: needed to get people out were not available, And there 55 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: were many, many different reasons for it. But I do 56 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 3: want to make a general point, which is that even 57 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 3: in a case which is branded a failure, there are 58 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 3: likely to be successes, and even in a case where 59 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 3: it's celebrated as a great success, there are often lessons 60 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 3: to be learned about things not to do as well. 61 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: And so what people like I do is to try 62 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 3: to put events like this under a microscope and try 63 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 3: to pick out the good performances from the less good performances, 64 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 3: the systemic issues to try to figure out how to 65 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 3: do better in the future. And I've really dedicated most 66 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 3: of my career to doing that. 67 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: In terms of Katrina and the events surrounding it, what 68 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: do they reveal about the importance of coordination between central 69 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: and local governments. 70 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 3: Well, so I just recently wrote an article about this, 71 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 3: which I think probably was what caught your attention. One 72 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 3: of the arguments that I make is that when it 73 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 3: comes to emergency response in these very large and complex disasters, 74 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 3: the chain of emergency response is only as strong as 75 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 3: the weakest link, and in fact, by definition, you're you're 76 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 3: going to have to work together across across these levels 77 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: of government, also across the public, private and nonprofit sectors, 78 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 3: and increasingly bringing in volunteers as well. One of the 79 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 3: problems during Hurricane Katrina was that local government was overwhelmed 80 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 3: by what was happening. The police force the fire, their 81 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 3: command and control was disrupted, a very human thing to do, 82 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 3: but a lot of people ended up trying to rescue 83 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 3: their their own loved ones. Number of studies have suggested 84 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 3: that an unusually high percentage of folks left their posts, 85 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 3: and that's something that you have to think about. One 86 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 3: of the world formal definitions social science definitions of disaster 87 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 3: is that and legal as well in the United States, 88 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 3: is that it's a situation that overwhelms the resources the 89 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 3: coping capacity of a jurisdiction. And so if the local 90 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: resources are not enough, you're going to need provincial or 91 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 3: central government, depending on how your system is organized. And 92 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 3: if the provincial is not enough, you need national Sometimes 93 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 3: you need international assistance as well. 94 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: In terms of the miss and disinformation. 95 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: Of course, Katrina was twenty years ago, but do you 96 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 2: think it's gotten just so much worse with the invention 97 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: of social media? I mean, how do emergency management, management 98 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: and managers get around that. 99 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 3: That's one of the biggest challenges that we face today 100 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 3: and there are a number of reasons for it. So, 101 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 3: first of all, as you said, the socio technical context, 102 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 3: the way we get our information today, the smart device 103 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 3: is social media means that information just flows much much faster. 104 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 3: We now have artificial intelligence as well, which means that 105 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 3: people can can fake images during the which Hurricane Helene 106 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 3: in North Carolina. Recently, there was an image of a 107 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 3: crying child that became the iconic image of the event, 108 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 3: but it turned out to be a manufactured image and 109 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: if you if you look very closely at it, you 110 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: could see tells that had to do with the shadows 111 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 3: on the boat that she was in. So the problem 112 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 3: is that there there are various bad actors or sometimes 113 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 3: people who are playing dirty political tricks, that have an 114 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 3: interest in spreading bad information. Sometimes it's for financial reasons. 115 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 3: There are a lot of scams that try to separate 116 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 3: disaster survivors from their their property or their or their money, 117 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 3: and these are people that are at their most vulnerable, 118 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 3: really terrible thing to do. Other times it's political motives, 119 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 3: you know, to to discredit the government's response to something. 120 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 3: We have in the United States a very polarized media 121 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 3: environment at the moment, and we've seen in a number 122 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: of events. Also during Hurricane Alina, North Carolina, there were 123 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 3: rumors spread that if you applied for aid from FEMA, 124 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 3: the Federal Emergency Management Agency, that they could confiscate your property. 125 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: People didn't dare to ask for help that was available 126 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 3: and was badly needed because they because of these rumors 127 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: and myths. So emergency managers have to try very hard 128 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 3: to get their message out in this very competitive, sometimes 129 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: toxic information environment. 130 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 4: I know that when you sit on the steps of 131 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 4: a ports where home was to, or sleep on a 132 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 4: cod in a crowded shelter, it is hard to imagine 133 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 4: a bright path. But that future will come. The streets 134 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 4: of Biloxi and Gulf Court will again be filled with 135 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 4: lovely homes and the sound of children playing. The churches 136 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 4: of Alabama will have their broken steeples minted in their 137 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 4: congregation's hall. And here in New Orleans, the street cars 138 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 4: will once again rumble down Saint Charles, and the passionate 139 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 4: soul of a great city will return. 140 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: In terms of Katrina, I know that leave no one 141 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: behind became a bit of a mantra there. How should 142 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: emergency managers make sure that the most vulnerable, like the elderly, disabled, 143 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: or people without a car, are included in all of 144 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: the plans well. 145 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 3: So, one of the important innovations in American emergency management 146 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 3: after Katrina is something called the whole community emergency management concepts. 147 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: And actually this is something that has national counterparts. The 148 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 3: United Nations has promulgated a whole society approach to disaster resilience, 149 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 3: which is actually quite similar and the whole I should 150 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 3: say the whole community strategy was developed in part in 151 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 3: dialogue with pure countries including New Zealand, that was doing 152 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 3: some similar things. UK resilience had some of the same elements, 153 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 3: but basically the idea was that in the past, the 154 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: people who made the emergency management plans often were elites 155 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: that were not always making an effort to capture the 156 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 3: needs of the whole community, and the community was often 157 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 3: not included. It was a very top down process and 158 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 3: often the most vulnerable socioeconomic groups, ethnic minorities, disabled folks, 159 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 3: their needs were not reports entered at the table when 160 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 3: the emergency plans were made. They might not have been 161 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 3: included in emergency management exercises. The facilities that are used 162 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 3: to shelter people may not have been adapted to their needs, 163 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 3: and often we're not. In fact, post Katrina, the whole 164 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: community doctrine says, no, you can't make those plans, you know, 165 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 3: just having the officials and the professionals. You have to 166 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 3: invite the community in, you have to bring in the stakeholders, 167 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 3: you have to have conversations. You have to plan and 168 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 3: prepare and develop capabilities such that the most vulnerable are 169 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 3: not left behind. In fact, they need special attention. And 170 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 3: we know that the most vulnerable are often the ones 171 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 3: that are hit hardest in disasters, both both in terms 172 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 3: of the health consequences and in terms of the financial impact. 173 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 2: What do you say is the most enduring image or 174 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: legacy of our haying Katrina four emergency managers? 175 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: Well, I guess anyone today. 176 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 3: So in terms of the images, again, I think it 177 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 3: was the folks who were left behind at the at 178 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: the Superdome. Or it was the contrast of President George W. 179 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 3: Bush congratulating his emergency manager on the great job that 180 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: he was doing, a guy named Michael Brown, so he said, 181 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 3: heck of a job, Brownie. And then two weeks later, Brown, 182 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: who was not a professional emergency manager, was fired. And 183 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 3: there are a bunch of reasons for that, and it 184 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 3: wasn't only his fault. Was a highly complex political environment, 185 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 3: and at that time FEMA was under the control of 186 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 3: the Department of Homeland Security, which it is now as well, 187 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 3: and there was there were complexities about or uncertainties about 188 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 3: who who was actually in charge what the the authority 189 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 3: of the FEMA administrator, who is the boss at FEMA, 190 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 3: what what authority that person would have there? There are many, 191 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 3: many aspects of the case that that are really memorable. 192 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 3: We learned some things about the power of the private sector. 193 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 3: Uh turned out that the the way that the private 194 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: sector uh big box stores and uh soorts like Walmart, 195 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 3: they were more effective at moving vital supplies quickly sometimes 196 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 3: than the public sector. UH and and and some of 197 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 3: the things that they did we were in an improvised 198 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 3: way turned out to be very important. That was built 199 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 3: into that whole community idea that we we we need 200 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 3: to also draw so not only take care of everybody, 201 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 3: leave no one behind, but also draw on the resources 202 00:13:54,600 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 3: of the whole society, including volunteers. Another legacy of Katrina 203 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 3: is a volunteer groups like the so called Cajun Navy. 204 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 3: These are folks with boats that go to two major disasters, 205 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: not just in Louisiana, but other parts of the country 206 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 3: too and help to rescue people when the public sector 207 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 3: official rescue services are completely overwhelmed. And actually that was 208 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 3: the case during the christ Church earthquakes as well. I'm 209 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 3: not as up to date on how things are in 210 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 3: New Zealand at the moment. But at that time, the 211 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: dominant mindset was if you have a big disaster, put 212 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 3: yellow tape around it and let the professionals do their job. 213 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 3: But if you have a disaster on the scale of 214 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: what happened in christ Church, there's just not enough official 215 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 3: responders to meet the needs. And so they had to 216 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 3: on the fly find ways of integrating community volunteers. And 217 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 3: here's the upside of the of the information technology that 218 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 3: we have. They use social media. To let me think, 219 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 3: it was the student volunteer Army and the Farming Army 220 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 3: UH which was spontaneously brought volunteers and the farmers had 221 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 3: heavy equipment you know that could be used for debris 222 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 3: removal and other tasks to help get christ Church on 223 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 3: its feet again. Actually, the New Zealand story there is 224 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 3: has been well documented and it's something that that other 225 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 3: parts of the world have learned from. 226 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Eric, that's a pleasure. 227 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: From earthquakes and eruptions to flooding and cyclons, New Zealand 228 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: has dealt with its fair share of natural disasters. Senior 229 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: Lecturer of Emergency Management at Massi University, Doctor Lauren Vannell 230 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: joins us to discuss what we could learn from the 231 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 2: failings of Katrina twenty years on. Lauren, we've just been 232 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: speaking about how the US emergency management works between federal, 233 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 2: state and local agencies. 234 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: How does New Zealand's work and is there good communication there. 235 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, so we're a little bit lucky in some regards 236 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 5: being a bit smaller in New Zealand. Obviously we don't 237 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 5: have the federal system to worry about. That chain of 238 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 5: communication between you know, local people on the ground and 239 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 5: our national central government. It's a bit it's stronger, it's 240 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 5: more direct because there are fewer links in that chain. 241 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 5: So you know, it tends to work quite well. Obviously. 242 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 5: You know a few years ago we shifted from having 243 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 5: a Ministry of Civil Defense Emergency Management to having the 244 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 5: National Emergency Management Agency, which was a bit of a 245 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 5: bit of a shakeup. I think, you know, generally that's 246 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 5: been there's been a good change. I think it's helping 247 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 5: things work better. But you know, that's not to say 248 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 5: that we still can't improve these things. So where eagerly 249 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 5: anticipating more details of the Emergency Management Bill, which one 250 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 5: of the main points there is to help clarify some 251 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 5: of the roles and responsibilities at different levels, to help 252 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 5: sort of streamline some of that communication. 253 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: Is the communication something that we have gotten better at 254 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 2: over time here in New Zealand. 255 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 5: I think definitely communication during crisis or emergencies in New 256 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 5: Zealand has improved over time. It varies a little bit 257 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 5: depending on the nature of the natural hazard event. So 258 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 5: you know, for example, as we saw during Cyclone Gabriel, 259 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 5: a lot of damage to the communication infrastructure made that 260 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 5: a challenge. It wasn't necessarily, you know, issues with the system, 261 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 5: but it's really hard to communicate when you don't have 262 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 5: self and coverage or internet connection. So definitely we're wanting 263 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 5: to try to find ways that we can allow communication 264 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 5: to occur between people on the ground to know what's 265 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 5: happening people outside the region, providing support in instances where 266 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 5: we may not have the full range of technological options 267 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 5: available for communication. 268 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 2: When looking at Katrina, it's hard not to think about 269 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 2: what happened at the Superdome, right, so sixteen thousand evacuees 270 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 2: ended up there. They faced failed generators, poor security, dwindling supplies, 271 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,239 Speaker 2: overflowing toilets. I mean, how important is it in an 272 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: emergency management crisis planning, so pre planning for these kind 273 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: of events just to make sure that you have the 274 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 2: places and supplies ready to go. 275 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's absolutely vital for a couple of reasons. So obviously, 276 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 5: once people are there, we want them to be safe. 277 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 5: We don't want to have hygiene issues leading to people 278 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 5: getting sick. You know, we need to make sure people 279 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 5: are comfortable and being looked after. But we also know 280 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 5: that if people don't have a if they don't know 281 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 5: where those shelters are, or if they don't think it's 282 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 5: going to be a good environment, they're less likely to evacuate. 283 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 5: So actually, one additional benefit of you know, communitating to 284 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 5: people where the shelters are, what they can expect that 285 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 5: we're ready to look after them, is that those people 286 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 5: are going to be more likely to evacuate and take 287 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 5: themselves out of danger with something like a storm or 288 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 5: a flood event if we're able to get more warning. 289 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 5: What what we'd like to see is also people considering 290 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 5: maybe whether they can go and stay with friends or relatives. 291 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 5: Any pressure we can take off those temporary evacuation shelters. 292 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 5: We obviously don't want, you know, sixteen thousand people descending 293 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 5: on a single place. Even if it's well prepared dealing 294 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 5: with that larger group, it's always going to be a challenge. 295 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing Eric said to me that was quite 296 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 2: interesting and something that they learned from Katrina, is that 297 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: the impact of private companies and private businesses. 298 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: He mentioned Walmart being really good at. 299 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 2: Not surprisingly, getting produced across large from parts. 300 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: Of the country. 301 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 2: Do you reckon that's something that New Zealanders do well, 302 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 2: because I know that looking back at some of there 303 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,719 Speaker 2: are natural disasters, there is that community spirit really in 304 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: New Zealand already, right. 305 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, And I mean it's easy to look at 306 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 5: Katrina and focus on all the bad that happened, but 307 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 5: there were some really good things that were seen during 308 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 5: that event. You know, corporations, businesses standing up to help people. 309 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 5: You know, people helping their neighbors, helping their friends, helping strangers. 310 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 5: Contrary to popular belief, disaster zones they're not usually full 311 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 5: of you know, crime and looting. It is usually people 312 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 5: helping each other. The private company is an interesting one. 313 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 5: I'm not entirely sure how much of that plays into 314 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 5: consideration around planning, but I know, for example, with the 315 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 5: new Emergency Management bill that's being worked on, there's going 316 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 5: to be consideration around roles and responsibilities for groups that 317 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 5: maybe haven't so much been officially included in the past. 318 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 5: I'm thinking particularly Ewe and Harper. We know in New 319 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 5: Zealand our Mardi community is really really good at standing 320 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 5: up and looking after you know, themselves, but also other 321 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 5: members of the community. The private company one is an 322 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 5: interesting question though. Definitely. You know, if we can find 323 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 5: anyone who's able to help take some of that burden 324 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 5: off of a disaster response is going to be helpful. 325 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 2: How has New Zealand's emergency management framework changed over the years, 326 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,239 Speaker 2: do you think well? Or are we really waiting to 327 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: see what ends up happening with this bill? 328 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 5: So, I mean, I definitely I think the bill is 329 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 5: going to be a good step forward. So that the 330 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 5: Civil Defense Emergency Management Act that we've got at the moment, 331 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 5: it is from two thousand and two, so it's quite old, 332 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 5: but I mean there obviously has been amendments to that 333 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 5: to update it. A lot of you know, the work 334 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 5: that's done is based on the National Plan, which I 335 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 5: think our current one is from twenty fifteen. How local 336 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 5: seed and groups update their group plans regularly, so it's 337 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 5: not like we're still working to what we knew in 338 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 5: two thousand and two. But the update to some of 339 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 5: that underpinning legislation, I think is going to help move 340 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 5: forward towards more where we would want our emergency management 341 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 5: system to be. 342 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: And lastly, how do you think New Zealand's emergency management 343 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: response differs to that of the rest of the world. Say, 344 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 2: what do we do better and what are some things 345 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: that we can perhaps do better? 346 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 5: In yep, that's a great question, I think definitely, As 347 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 5: sort of I was saying, because we are a little 348 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 5: bit smaller, we have, you know, fewer levels of bureaucracy 349 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 5: than places like the US or Australia, which also has 350 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 5: a federal system, we can be a bit more agile. 351 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 5: It can be easier to get resources around where they 352 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 5: need to be, you know, including people in personnel. I 353 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 5: think one issue is that we have so many events 354 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 5: because we are prone to a lot of different nets 355 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 5: hazards that we see quite a lot of turnover and 356 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 5: quite a lot of burnout amongst our emergency management personnel. 357 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 5: All great people, really really passionate, but it is really 358 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 5: hard work. So I think more support for the people 359 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 5: doing this work, you know, including professionalization, so training, but 360 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 5: also in a psychological support helping them cope with the 361 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 5: you know, the challenges and difficulties of responding to these events, 362 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 5: so that you know, after one major event, we don't 363 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 5: then lose everyone because they're too tired and burnt out, 364 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 5: and then next time it's people going through it again. 365 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 5: It'll be great to see more of that experience retained 366 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 5: within the system. 367 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Lauren al. 368 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 5: Race, thanks for having me. 369 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 370 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 371 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: at NSID Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page 372 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: is produced by Janey and Richard Martin, who is also 373 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 2: our editor. 374 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 375 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 376 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another 377 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 2: look behind the headlines.