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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees.

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Speaker 1: I'm Peter Griffin with Business Desk and this week what

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Speaker 1: went wrong with our first big space mission as a nation,

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Speaker 1: Methane SAT. It was an exciting, worthy project that grabbed

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Speaker 1: the imagination of government ministers and the policy wonks at

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Speaker 1: the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, where our National

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Speaker 1: Space Agency is based. We put around thirty million dollars.

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Speaker 2: Into Methane SAT.

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Speaker 1: This effort by the US based Environmental Defense Fund to

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Speaker 1: launch a methane sniffing satellite to help us identify sources

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Speaker 1: of methane emissions from gas rigs and also from agriculture,

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Speaker 1: figure out who is leaking this potent greenhouse gas or

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Speaker 1: where it's coming from, try to get them to stop

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Speaker 1: or reduce those emissions and fight climate change.

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Speaker 2: Great idea.

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Speaker 1: The satellite made it into orbit OK in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: four and a plan was to hand control of it

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Speaker 1: eventually to the University of Auckland, which set up mission

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Speaker 1: control for Methane SAT with the help of rocket Lab.

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Speaker 1: That's the bit that we as taxpayers were funding. But

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Speaker 1: last year the one hundred million dollar satellite went in communicato.

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Speaker 1: What was supposed to be a five year mission was

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Speaker 1: prematurely over no more methane data, a huge amount of

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Speaker 1: time and money wasted, and it's raised some big questions

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Speaker 1: about how we funded science and innovation projects with our

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Speaker 1: precious research dollars in New Zealand. Methane SAT may have

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Speaker 1: been worthy big project and sure one that could have

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Speaker 1: boosted our space industry our expertise, particularly in mission control,

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Speaker 1: but big questions have been raised, including in the Ministry

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Speaker 1: of Business, Innovation and Employment's own review of Methane SAT.

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Speaker 1: It found that redacted Official Information Act responses and limited

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Speaker 1: visibility into operational discussions and challenges undermined public confidence in

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Speaker 1: the project, and as my guest this week on the

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Speaker 1: Business of Tech outlines, there are other questions about the

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Speaker 1: due diligence we did on the partners and technology involved

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Speaker 1: in Methane SAT and what we were trying to achieve with

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Speaker 1: our involvement in it. Professor Richard Easter is a University

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Speaker 1: of Auckland astrophysicist. You've seen him on TV talking on

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Speaker 1: a wide range of space related topics. He's been a

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Speaker 1: really strong science communicator for many years in New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: He was excited about methane SAT initially, but the project

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Speaker 1: quickly fell into the typical pattern we follow in New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: A big idea captured by a small number of government

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Speaker 1: officials keen to make their mark, a lack of technical

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Speaker 1: input from the scientific community, and to be fair muddled

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Speaker 1: thinking about what we were actually trying to achieve for

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Speaker 1: the country with this project. Fortunately, we've seen this movie before,

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Speaker 1: with our involvement in the Square Kilometer Array project and

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Speaker 1: with the national size challenges, a decade long research effort

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Speaker 1: that cost us all up around eight hundred million dollars

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Speaker 1: and achieved well, no one is really sure exactly, so

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Speaker 1: what can we learn from methane sad Here's my interview

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Speaker 1: with Richard Easter on.

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Speaker 2: Satellites, space projects.

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Speaker 1: And spending our precious science dollars Wisely, Richard's so good

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Speaker 1: to see you.

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Speaker 2: How are you doing, Welcome to the business of tech.

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Speaker 3: Oh, thank you for having me. It's good to see

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Speaker 3: you as well.

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Speaker 2: It's been a while.

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Speaker 1: I think we've known each other for probably at least

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Speaker 1: fifteen years, back when I was with the Science Media Center.

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Speaker 1: You were a very generous supporter of the Science Media Center,

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Speaker 1: both in the commentary that you supplied us on all

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Speaker 1: sorts of science related topics, but also as an advocate

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Speaker 1: for science communication our science Media Savvy courses you hosted

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Speaker 1: at the University of Auckland. So really appreciate your commitment

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Speaker 1: to science communication over multiple decades. But for our listener

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Speaker 1: who don't know your background, give us the potted history

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Speaker 1: of your career, which extended to some of the most

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Speaker 1: esteemed universities outside of New Zealand as well.

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Speaker 4: So the short quession, I've always been one of those

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Speaker 4: kids that was really into space, I guess, and so

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Speaker 4: I went to Canterbury to do an astronomy degree, as

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Speaker 4: it turned out, but wound up doing more physics and astronomy,

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Speaker 4: got a PhD and working in cosmology, so the science

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Speaker 4: of how the universe begins and how changes over time

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Speaker 4: to produce stars and planets and galaxies. Went to Japan

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Speaker 4: for a couple of years, then worked in the States

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Speaker 4: at Brownland Columbia as what we call postdocs fixed term

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Speaker 4: research positions, and then I was a professor at Yale

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Speaker 4: for eight years before I came back to New Zealand

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Speaker 4: where it was recruited by the University of Auckland to

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Speaker 4: be the Haair Physics and I've given up academics. We

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Speaker 4: rotate out of leadership physicians, so I've joined the ranks.

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Speaker 4: I'm a regular professor, I teach, I do research, and

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Speaker 4: got the best job in the world in many ways.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, you ran the physics department for a long time

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Speaker 1: and still publishing, you know, great quality research. Got lots

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Speaker 1: of students that you've mentored PhD students and that over

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Speaker 1: the years an active blogger as well. Excursion set will

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Speaker 1: link to that some really thoughtful stuff and it's actually

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Speaker 1: some of those blog posts that have really got me thinking.

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Speaker 1: And that's what this episode really is about, is the

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Speaker 1: future of our investment in science and innovation in New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: where we place our very scarce dollars and increasingly scarce

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Speaker 1: unfortunately at the moment, into science and innovation. And has

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Speaker 1: been a couple of projects in the last decade or

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Speaker 1: so that you've looked at, and I really admire you

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Speaker 1: for being really forthright in your commentary on some of

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Speaker 1: these projects because it is in a small country and

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Speaker 1: you know what academia is like putting your hand up

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Speaker 1: and saying I have concerns about This is a risky

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Speaker 1: thing to do, so I really appreciate you sort of

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Speaker 1: being willing to talk about this. These are both topics

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Speaker 1: that you know a lot about. The projects we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about. We'll start with methane SAT, which you've

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Speaker 1: been giving a bit of commentary about. You know, I

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Speaker 1: interviewed neiwa's principal scientists back in twenty twenty two, doctor

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Speaker 1: Sarah Mikaeloff Fletcher, who's involved in the methane SAT project.

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Speaker 1: We'll play just a little clip from a podcast I

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Speaker 1: did with Radio New Zealand back then about this project

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Speaker 1: that was just getting off the ground. At the time,

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Speaker 1: the satellite hadn't launched, but here's Sarah talking about what

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Speaker 1: NIWA and Sarah wanted to achieve with methane SAT.

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Speaker 5: Well, there are two reasons to get involved with the

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Speaker 5: satellite program. One is just to develop capacity in New

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Speaker 5: Zealand to do this kind of work and develop on

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Speaker 5: the ground capacity to encourage students to get involved in

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Speaker 5: this type of work and to develop a rich, connected,

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Speaker 5: vibrant research community. And then once you say you want

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Speaker 5: to do that, a natural thing for New Zealand to

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Speaker 5: lead on and to work on is agricultural greenhouse gas emissions.

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Speaker 5: That's long been a place that we see as our

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Speaker 5: leadership space in the global community, some place where we

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Speaker 5: can make a real contribution. Now, the original scope of

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Speaker 5: the methane's admission was really focused on fossil fuel methane emissions.

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Speaker 5: So fossil fuel methane emissions are an emission where it's

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Speaker 5: sort of seen that there are really no losers to

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Speaker 5: reducing those emissions because, unlike CO two is emitted because

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Speaker 5: you've driven your car and through the planned combustion process,

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Speaker 5: CO two is a byproduct of that. But methane emissions

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Speaker 5: from fossil fuels, they're mostly emitted by accident. They're emitted

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Speaker 5: from leaks in pipelines and blowouts at factories and where

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Speaker 5: the methane is produced. So if you know exactly where

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Speaker 5: those leaks are, you can go fix them. And there's

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Speaker 5: very little class So the international team is really focused

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Speaker 5: on developing those applications around fossil fuel emissions, and where

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Speaker 5: the New Zealand Science program is focused is on developing

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Speaker 5: the capability of using the satellite to also do agricultural emissions,

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Speaker 5: and that the area where New Zealand will lead.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, methane is a very greenhouse warming gas. We wanted

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Speaker 1: to get a handle on it, both from industrial sort

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Speaker 1: of factories and gas plants, but also for agricultural emissions,

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Speaker 1: which is really more relevant to us.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm not a climate scientist, but I mean, obviously,

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Speaker 4: methane is one of the atoms with your molecule's three

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Speaker 4: atoms or three or more atoms. So carbon dioxide what

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Speaker 4: a vapor for that matter, or methane and more complicated

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Speaker 4: things absorbing infrared and so are they're the ones that

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Speaker 4: contribute to warming in the atmosphere. And methane in particular

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Speaker 4: is an issue for New Zealand because unusual for kind,

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Speaker 4: it's like ours, most of our greenhouse emissions in the

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Speaker 4: former methane rather than carbon dioxide, and in New Zealand

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Speaker 4: that's agricultural emission. Primarily it comes from a front end

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Speaker 4: of cows, not the back end some people might like

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Speaker 4: to imply. And so I think that the attraction of

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Speaker 4: methanes ad is it's part of a Methane is a

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Speaker 4: pound for pound is a stronger contributed to warming than

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Speaker 4: carbon dioxide, although it also it doesn't stay permanently in

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Speaker 4: the atmosphere and the way that CO two does. But

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Speaker 4: the goal was methanes AD is actually once one of

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Speaker 4: a bunch of projects that are designed to track methane

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Speaker 4: emissions or natural gas emissions from oil and gas facilities.

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Speaker 4: And so these are usually cases where methane is getting

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Speaker 4: into the atmosphere by accident, sometimes leakage. Sometimes you know

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Speaker 4: that it's coming up with oil and being vended into

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Speaker 4: the atmosphere. And so the idea was that you would

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Speaker 4: track these emissions, that you would negotiate or potentially name

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Speaker 4: and shame.

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Speaker 3: But I think.

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Speaker 4: The people who built methanes add are very work collaboratively

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Speaker 4: with oil and gas industry where they can. Any idea

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Speaker 4: was is that, you know, this would be a relatively

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Speaker 4: easy way of taking a bite out of global warming.

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Speaker 4: The particularly attractive thing is in some ways, you know,

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Speaker 4: if we change them, you know, anything we do to

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Speaker 4: change the way that we manage dairy farming in New

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Speaker 4: Zealand or produce the number of cows, that's going to

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Speaker 4: inconvenience someone. Whereas I think from the New Zealand perspective,

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Speaker 4: this was also a way to contribute to climate mitigation,

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Speaker 4: but without actually doing anything anything that wouldn't require any

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Speaker 4: work done locally. That would be the slightly cynical version

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Speaker 4: of it. But there's a global push. Methinks that there's

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Speaker 4: one of several several spacecraft that are designed to observe

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Speaker 4: methane from space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are lots of them. And look a really

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Speaker 1: credible US charity behind us. The Environmental Defense Fund raised

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Speaker 1: a lot of money from philanthropists, US government money as well.

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Speaker 1: About eighty eight million dollars went into this, I think.

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Speaker 4: Primarily Jeff Bezos. It was one I mean, so they're

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Speaker 4: apparently about a two hundred million dollar a year opera

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Speaker 4: the CEO and a billion US dollars a year, so

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Speaker 4: not a This is a serious operation. I have to

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Speaker 4: say though that one of the things that's disappointed at

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Speaker 4: us about me thanks that is the lack of candor,

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Speaker 4: and that seems to be very much driven by the

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Speaker 4: DF people. You know that they have a beautiful ted

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Speaker 4: talk on the potential of methanks that to make a difference,

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Speaker 4: but their ability to front up when things didn't work,

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Speaker 4: I mean, bringing between the lines. I think there was

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Speaker 4: a source spot between the New Zealand government and the

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Speaker 4: methane that organization which is legally a subsidiary of the

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Speaker 4: Environmental Defense FUNT, but particularly between the wider and New

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Speaker 4: Zealand community.

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Speaker 1: So back in twenty twenty two when I did that

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Speaker 1: interview with Sarah, they were effectively building the satellite. And

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Speaker 1: this is a big satellite. You know, people might wonder

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Speaker 1: why didn't Rocket Lab, for instance, launch this from Mahia.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't going to fit on an electron rocket. It's

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Speaker 1: a big satellite that has tailor made sensors to find

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Speaker 1: these methane emissions. Quite a lot of innovation actually putting

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Speaker 1: that together, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: I would push back on that a little bit. It's

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Speaker 4: not a huge satellite. It's it's still only a few

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Speaker 4: hundred kilograms, so it's still in a category of what's

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Speaker 4: known as a small SAT. But the key thing was

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Speaker 4: is when the conversation started with the methans at people

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Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen, there was the hope that it would

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Speaker 4: sit on top of the electron and and in fact,

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Speaker 4: one of the ways that this developed is that there

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Speaker 4: was always more things being dangled in front of us

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Speaker 4: than we eventually gotten, you know, to enjoy. And so

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Speaker 4: the conversation was started with the prospect in mind that

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Speaker 4: this was potentially launchable by rocket Lab and it's you know,

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Speaker 4: I can't remember the exact mass that the electron can

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Speaker 4: put in the polar a bit that Methanes had had,

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Speaker 4: but methanes that's probably fifty two hundred percent too big

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Speaker 4: for rocket Lab to have launched at the time. And

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Speaker 4: the electrons got a little bit more capable as well. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: so it's it's not huge and there was a prospect

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Speaker 4: of doing that. The key thing is, in fact, when

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Speaker 4: they knew that Electron couldn't launch it, and when we

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Speaker 4: found out, that's a critical moment in the conversation, like

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Speaker 4: why did we keep talking to them when it became

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Speaker 4: a parent that we wouldn't be able.

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Speaker 2: To launch I guess yeah.

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Speaker 1: At the time, there was we have the New Zealand

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Speaker 1: Space Agency and they were looking for any opportunities beyond

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Speaker 1: what was happening with rocket Lab to bolster this industry

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Speaker 1: in New Zealand. So it pivoted to Okay, rocket Lab

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Speaker 1: is going to support the monitoring, the launch and monitoring

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Speaker 1: of this with the ground station, a mission control essentially

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Speaker 1: that would be handed over to the University of Auckland.

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Speaker 1: You must have been really excited about the prospect of that.

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Speaker 3: No, I was, and I went on TV to be

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Speaker 3: excited about it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I remember so New Zealand had been talking

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Speaker 4: to methansat from mid twenty eighteen and went through cabinet

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Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen at some point, and the first email

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Speaker 4: I have about it as later in twenty nineteen, and

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Speaker 4: the announcement was in November, So at that point, you know,

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Speaker 4: we had some I think it's fair to say that

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Speaker 4: even then there were reservations about the fact that it

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Speaker 4: had been sort of landed on the community without real consultation,

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Speaker 4: but you know, we were prepared to go along with that,

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Speaker 4: you know, and genuinely excited and anything that. You know

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Speaker 4: that the shine came off over the subsequent years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately it was launched in twenty twenty four and it

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Speaker 1: was really active for about a month before they lost

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Speaker 1: contact with it.

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Speaker 4: So they lost contact in twenty twenty five. So they

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Speaker 4: had it in space. So it launched in March twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty four and it failed in late June twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: Were they gathering data that whole time?

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Speaker 4: No, Well, it's a problem. So in principle you know,

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Speaker 4: looking back on you know, notes that I have from

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Speaker 4: presentations that I heard. The idea was is that it's

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Speaker 4: in an orbit that wraps the Earth essentially like a

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Speaker 4: like a ball of twine, and it's designed so that

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Speaker 4: it makes frequent passes over the same spot with the

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Speaker 4: Sun at roughly the same angle, so you could get

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Speaker 4: consistent measurements. They were meant to be observing about twenty

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Speaker 4: what they call scenes a day, and so you know,

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Speaker 4: the instrument records a lot of data, and so the

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Speaker 4: idea was is that you'd observed you know, particular squares

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Speaker 4: and methane sand, had observed a reasonably large patch of ground.

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Speaker 4: So from that point of view, it's a very capable mission.

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Speaker 4: But the belief, you know, they had like a three

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Speaker 4: month kind of shakedown period scheduled, which is about standard

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Speaker 4: for the sort of mission, I would say, but it

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Speaker 4: actually was it became increasingly apparent that they were having problems,

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Speaker 4: not with the instrument itself, Like the actual methane detective

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Speaker 4: part of it works beautifully. No one disputes that it's

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Speaker 4: evolved from technology that was developed by NASA.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's a big success.

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Speaker 4: The problem was is that the rest of the spacecraft

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Speaker 4: that they're built around it, which was supposed to be

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Speaker 4: relatively bread and butter components. You know, we've been putting

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Speaker 4: objects in space for sixty years. I mean, the stuff

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Speaker 4: is rocket science, but it's it's also should be repeatable.

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Speaker 4: That part of it didn't work very well. The spacecraft

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Speaker 4: kept on essentially rebooting itself and so by so this

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Speaker 4: was an octop B that that they were still having

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Speaker 4: issues and in February they hadn't been able to sort

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Speaker 4: them out. Rocket Labs contract had ended. It sounds like

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Speaker 4: relations between rocket Lab and the people who built it

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Speaker 4: were fairly contentious. But you know, the Rocket Labe people

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Speaker 4: was one very big exception. Won't talk, but it was

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Speaker 4: actually the control of it was actually returned to the

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Speaker 4: people who built the satellite in the United States to

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Speaker 4: try and work out its bugs. It sounds like they

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Speaker 4: got most of the way there and then it dropped

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Speaker 4: dead and we haven't heard from it since.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is gutting for the like Cisarah and all

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Speaker 1: the researchers involved. But in terms of the actual scientific mission,

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Speaker 1: obviously we all would probably agree that you know, accurately

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Speaker 1: detecting methane and using that data in an open platform

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Speaker 1: like the EDF were planning and we're doing it. Was

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Speaker 1: a great thing. But you know, when it comes to

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Speaker 1: our sort of national interest, you know, our challenges to

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Speaker 1: is to tackle greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture, and most

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Speaker 1: of that is methane, bit of nitrous oxide as well.

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Speaker 1: We've already got a pretty good handle on that in

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Speaker 1: New Zealand. Have we through ground censors. You can do

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Speaker 1: it with drones. I think at Sarah even admitted to

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Speaker 1: me at the time, we already pretty much know where

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Speaker 1: a methane is coming from in this country.

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Speaker 3: I think that's true.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think the important thing is is that

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Speaker 4: from New Zealand's point of view, the SAT was a

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Speaker 4: lot more important than the methane, right there was a

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Speaker 4: goal to find the language that was used at the

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Speaker 4: time was a national mission. So something that you know,

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Speaker 4: would build on this kind of unexpected success. I mean,

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Speaker 4: if you go back to twenty ten, I was involved

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Speaker 4: in efforts to develop teaching in the space technology related

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Speaker 4: area at Allen and at other places in New Zealand.

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Speaker 4: Isn't obviously a conversation and you know, if someone had

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Speaker 4: come to you, you know, in two thousand and eight

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Speaker 4: and said what we really need is as an aerospace

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Speaker 4: engineering course. You know they would people would have laughed, like,

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Speaker 4: why you know, we don't have an industry to support that.

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Speaker 4: No one's going to do it. You know, Peter Beck

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Speaker 4: is a huge, hugely singular individual and he's been probably

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Speaker 4: i mean Elon Muskers is big rival. But the fact

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Speaker 4: that you know that, I mean Musk is his own

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Speaker 4: kind of whims But the fact that someone from New Zealand,

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Speaker 4: and starting from New Zealand and who wasn't very wealthy

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Speaker 4: to begin with, was able to successfully build an orbital

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Speaker 4: launch program. There are dozens of other companies that have

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Speaker 4: tried around the world that are trying to do a

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Speaker 4: rocket labs done and failed. That's this weird thing that happened.

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Speaker 4: And then the government correctly said, you know, well, how

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Speaker 4: are we going to exploit that? How do we build

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Speaker 4: an ecosystem around this that isn't just rocket lab but

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Speaker 4: as a whole industry for New Zealand. And so part

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Speaker 4: of that was is the idea that we needed some

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Speaker 4: flagship endeavor in space and so methane just happened to

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Speaker 4: be the thing that came along and a bunch of

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Speaker 4: people and civil servants rather than politicians sort of leapt

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Speaker 4: on this opportunity is the thing that we were going

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Speaker 4: to do, but it could have mean something completely different.

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Speaker 4: The methone part was not you know, it wasn't that

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Speaker 4: we went out to find something that would do something

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Speaker 4: about methaneers.

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Speaker 3: That we wanted to do something in space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess the thinking was, if we can

361
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Speaker 1: hand us over to the University of Auckland Mission Control,

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Speaker 1: get really good experience on monitoring and controlling a satellite

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Speaker 1: from New Zealand, then maybe we can launch our own satellites,

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Speaker 1: maybe on Electron, to serve our own purposes, monitor our

365
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Speaker 1: own oceans for security, for instance, agriculture, forestry, all of

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Speaker 1: those sorts of applications that were buying data from other

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Speaker 1: satellite providers.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we can do it ourselves.

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Speaker 4: The idea that there would be an operation Mission Operations

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Speaker 4: Control mock in New Zealand as part of me thinks

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Speaker 4: that is definitely something you see going back to twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 3: But actually, you know.

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Speaker 4: I mean the problem is is we've now got a

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Speaker 4: control center that was designed to support one hundred million

375
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Speaker 4: dollar satellite and one that was fairly needy in terms

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Speaker 4: of being needing people watching over. You know, in the

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Speaker 4: next few years we're more likely to be building million

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Speaker 4: dollar satellites, and in many cases those could be controlled

379
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Speaker 4: by the team that have built them. I mean, you

380
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Speaker 4: need to be able to supply what they call ground segments,

381
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Speaker 4: so that communications between the spacecraft and the ground. But

382
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Speaker 4: that there are many places or many ways that you

383
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Speaker 4: could do that. Auckland wasn't providing the connection to meet

384
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Speaker 4: that set, you know, it was from a commercial provider.

385
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Speaker 4: So the problem is is that as actually the problem

386
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Speaker 4: is not controlling the satellite that in some ways as

387
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 4: a problem that's down the track. The problem is really

388
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Speaker 4: understanding how to build them and to come up with

389
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Speaker 4: things that are compelling missions, not just sort of important substitution,

390
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,280
Speaker 4: which is the risk with some of the proposals that

391
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Speaker 4: we've seen.

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Speaker 3: You know, well that.

393
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Speaker 4: We're trying to replace data that we could get externally.

394
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Speaker 4: But in many cases, you know, the danger is is

395
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Speaker 4: we might build something that's more expensive and less effective.

396
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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

397
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Speaker 1: So the more we talk, the more the case for

398
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Speaker 1: it seems to unravel a little bit, and ultimately, you know,

399
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,640
Speaker 1: we lost twenty nine million dollars or so on this.

400
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: You know, MB had put that money into it that

401
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 1: disappeared with the satellite. Our investment went into the mission

402
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 1: control and the supporting operations rather than the satellite itself.

403
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Speaker 1: There may be some insurance money coming. We're not going

404
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,919
Speaker 1: to see that, but that will likely go to the

405
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,440
Speaker 1: DF rather than to MB or the University of Auckland.

406
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Speaker 4: So certainly the DF is that people that had the

407
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,879
Speaker 4: insurance policy, and they would be It's relatively unusual for

408
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 4: a small satellite that's to be insured apparent, Yeah, but

409
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 4: the space insurance is absolutely I think one of the

410
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 4: Oftentimes people in particular will insure against the loss at

411
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Speaker 4: launch because that is out of control. The people who

412
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Speaker 4: build the satellite and the people who launch it are

413
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Speaker 4: usually different, so that you know, and people who build

414
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 4: the sort of satellites to provide sky TV those things

415
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,360
Speaker 4: usually have some sort of insurance coverage as well.

416
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, huge revenue loss if the Optus B one

417
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Speaker 1: satellite goes down. You can so you can understand that,

418
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,400
Speaker 1: but I was surprised. Nevertheless, you know, we've lost a

419
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 1: chunk of money here. You told Tom Pollastrekker from the

420
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 1: post the issue here is that we do a terrible

421
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Speaker 1: job of choosing science priorities in New Zealand, and the

422
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: people who pushed methanes out were not scientists and do

423
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Speaker 1: not have visible track records of testing proposals for excellence

424
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 1: and competence. And I think that's that's the crux of it,

425
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,959
Speaker 1: really is the mission, as we've discussed, was a good one.

426
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 1: The technology in terms of the methane SAT sensors, and

427
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 1: that itself desire. Really that we weren't able to get

428
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: a satellite, a highly functional, reliable satellite in space that

429
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,400
Speaker 1: is bread and butter for rocket Lab and many others. Nevertheless,

430
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 1: when you peel back the layers of how this decision

431
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: making was done, it's left wanting, isn't it.

432
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Speaker 4: I mean, you don't want to punish people for failure

433
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,639
Speaker 4: because otherwise we won't take risks. It is true that

434
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 4: space is an inherently risky place. It's very unforgiving of

435
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 4: any kind of defect. On the other hand, people have

436
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 4: been sending the first spacecraft was satellite was launched in

437
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 4: nineteen fifty seven, So there isn't you know, there's always

438
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 4: this whole you know, things in space sometimes go wrong

439
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 4: and it's in the NB report, but in fact they shouldn't.

440
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 4: You know, things that are competently engineered. There are risks

441
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 4: that you know that you're tacking in terms of say

442
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,719
Speaker 4: developing and new technology, but the rest of it, if

443
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 4: it's built, if it's well built and well tested, should

444
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,959
Speaker 4: not be expected to fail in this That so clearly

445
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 4: does a mismatch. I think what happened, or what it

446
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 4: seems that happened, is that we found this opportunity and

447
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 4: then we found reasons to do the opportunity. So if

448
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 4: we'd said, you know, what we want to do is

449
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 4: to develop you know, space technology companies in New Zealand,

450
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 4: and we want to develop an educated workforce, then you

451
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 4: could have sat down and said, well, what's the best

452
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 4: way to spend thirty million dollars on this? And there

453
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 4: is absolutely no way that you would have come up

454
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 4: with me thinks that. But because you start with the

455
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 4: shiny thing and then find reasons to do it again,

456
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 4: you know, there's the assessment of the team. There's a

457
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 4: lot of prestige. They make a big deal out of

458
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 4: the fact that you know, some of the people involved

459
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 4: were at Harvard and you knows that report says, we

460
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 4: you know, we have a relationship with have IT.

461
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 3: We don't.

462
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 4: We have a relationship with a couple of people at

463
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 4: have IT. And you know that's not the same if

464
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 4: you know, if someone collaborates with me at the University

465
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 4: of Auckland, they don't suddenly have an MLU with the

466
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 4: University of Auckland. And so I think in particular, they

467
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 4: made a big deal out of the fact that it

468
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 4: was going to be tested to NASA standards and that

469
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 4: itself is complex, has different standards for something that say,

470
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 4: has people on it, as opposed to something that they

471
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 4: might be seeing this experimental. What they were trying to

472
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 4: do is they were trying to build a fairly complex

473
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 4: spacecraft against a very short schedule and with people who

474
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 4: hadn't you know, they'd hired people, but the organization itself

475
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 4: hadn't built a spacecraft before. And so you know, this

476
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 4: is you know, cheap fast, and no one's cheap fast

477
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 4: and good you know to choose any too, and that

478
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 4: that should have waived huge red flags, and for whatever reason,

479
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 4: it didn't. And so when they asked them, said spokesman recently,

480
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 4: you know, he was asked by a Canadian journalist, what

481
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 4: do you think about this? It is, oh, well, you know, obviously,

482
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 4: if we have more money, we could have done things

483
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 4: the way that Nace did it. And I'm thinking about

484
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen, you told cabinet it was going to

485
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 4: be done, things were going to be done the way

486
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 4: nasted them, and now you're telling me you can't afford it.

487
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 4: So you know, like, clearly there's an assessment of them

488
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 4: as an organization that we should have done. If we've

489
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 4: done just more technical assessment. If they didn't find it,

490
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 4: there's no guarantee that we would have found it. But

491
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 4: I think that from an organizational level, when you look

492
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 4: at it, say, I, actually, you know, I can see

493
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 4: why this went wrong.

494
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: There has been an MB commissioned review of this, Judith Collins,

495
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 1: and we should remember that this was not a particularly

496
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: politically partisan thing. Labors sort of kicked off this project.

497
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: Judith Colins, space minister, hugely enthusiastic about the space industry,

498
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: picked it up and ran with it. She said that

499
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: there are clear lessons around governance, transparency and contracting. But

500
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: what's your take on what actually MB has disclosed in

501
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: reviewing this debacle.

502
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 4: Firstly, there was a moment. You know, like the original

503
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 4: launch date was twenty twenty two, and that went past

504
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 4: without any announcement at all. So there's clearly been you know,

505
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 4: a lack of you know, like they're very happy to

506
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 4: share good news, not so much bad news. But by

507
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 4: October twenty twenty four, you know, the things were kind

508
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 4: of well behind. There was a lot of whispering in

509
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 4: the community. I mean to the point where I heard

510
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 4: sort of people cracking jokes about it, you know, that

511
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 4: things weren't good. And so at that point, it was

512
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 4: Radio New Zealand's Always Gibson who followed up.

513
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 3: She got an email back.

514
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 4: From them saying, oh, no, it's it's it's you know,

515
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 4: everything is I can't remember the exact wedding, but you

516
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 4: know there are no issues and that the spacecraft is

517
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 4: a nominal Operations. I think was the phrase nominal was used.

518
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 4: And in the space community that phrase is kind of sacred.

519
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 4: You know, It's like it's like whispering I love you

520
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 4: to someone. It's you know, it means more than.

521
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: That.

522
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 4: It's a little word, but it carries a lot of

523
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 4: weight and it means that everything is working. And my

524
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 4: impression was that at that point. Gibson, you know, saw

525
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 4: that email and thought, okay, well, you know, things have

526
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 4: taken a while to settle down, but it seems like

527
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 4: it's going to be okay. You know. At the same time,

528
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 4: the same week, the MB was briefing the Minister that yes,

529
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 4: the spacecraft had problems. They thought they had things they

530
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 4: wanted to do to fix it. But what they were

531
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 4: telling the public and what they were telling the minister,

532
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 4: those two things were different, and MB could see that happen.

533
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 4: And I think that's the issue, is like MB has

534
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 4: fun that these people with thirty million dollars not necessarily

535
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 4: full led to them, but spent on the project as

536
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 4: a whole. And it seems their partners saying to a

537
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 4: serious journalist that everything is working well, and if they're

538
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 4: saying something quite different to the minister, and they could

539
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 4: have said, yeah, we think we can fix it, that

540
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 4: wouldn't you know, that would have been truthful. But once

541
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 4: they'd told that initial kind of trading, while insolvent in

542
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 4: some sense is that I think they thought they would

543
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 4: be able to take themselves out of the hole, and

544
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 4: so when they couldn't. It's also seems like it's been

545
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 4: difficult for mb to be honest about what happened because

546
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 4: they were part of what happened.

547
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: Look, it does have some parallels to another project from

548
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: nearly a decade ago, the Square Kilometer Array, the effort

549
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: to build one of the biggest radio telescopes in the world.

550
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: New Zealand was co opted into that spent a chunk

551
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: of money, was then asked to spend a really big

552
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: amount of money, nearly thirty million dollars. There was a

553
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: debate about that. Ultimately the government decided to opt out

554
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: of it. I know you faced a lot of criticism

555
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: from your colleagues who really wanted that project to go ahead.

556
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: What do you see as the key sort of parallels

557
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: between what happened with methane SAT and the deliberations over SKA.

558
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 4: I think what happened with the SKA is my I mean,

559
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 4: there was real enthusiasm for it from some astronomers, not all,

560
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 4: and in two thousand and six or even maybe before that,

561
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 4: when we started talking about it, the timeline for the

562
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 4: project would be that it was be fully built by

563
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 4: twenty twenty, and so the debate was whether it would

564
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 4: be in Southern Africa or whether it would be in Australasia.

565
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 4: By twenty eighteen, they hadn't started building it. And it

566
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 4: also became apparent, although they only admitted this in the

567
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 4: last year or so, really that that what they're going

568
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 4: to build is actually ten percent of what they originally

569
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 4: talked about. And so once that had got rolling in

570
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 4: New Zealand, the astronomy community became I think less excited

571
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 4: about it as it became less capable. I mean, it's

572
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 4: still going to be a world pass instrument. I mean

573
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 4: it's going to do beautiful work once it's belt computing

574
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 4: and this certain firms in the computing industry and one

575
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 4: university in particular, it is very excited about it, and

576
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 4: I think to some extent it became a kind of

577
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 4: Ponzi scheme in the sense that if you had invested

578
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 4: in it early, then probably you would get something.

579
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 3: Out of it.

580
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 4: But then I know, tangentially, people who know people who

581
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 4: were caught up in the matter Off scandal in the

582
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 4: United States, for instance, and people who invested earlier were

583
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 4: super happy with it, and not only that, recruited other

584
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 4: people to this project. And so I mean, there's nothing

585
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 4: criminal about the situation in New Zealand, but people who

586
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 4: had got in early and who didn't fully understand the

587
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 4: complexities of the organization that they were dealing with, took

588
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 4: what they were told on faith, and then we're genuinely

589
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 4: mystified and quite nasty when they found out that the

590
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 4: astronomy community in New Zealand was actually pretty skeptical about

591
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 4: this is that we thought that that same money would

592
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 4: be much better spent in other ways. But I think

593
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 4: the key thing in both cases, you know, I would

594
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 4: absolutely not have said anything about the SKA and public

595
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 4: if I didn't think I had the backing of my colleagues.

596
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 4: And there's certainly the concerns about me thanks that are

597
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 4: widely shared inside of the community. I mean, it's a

598
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 4: little tricky here for me because you know, the University

599
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 4: of Auckland is involved with the Mission Operations Center. But

600
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 4: looking nationally, nothing I'm saying about me thans that isn't

601
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 4: anything that hasn't already been said privately.

602
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: That's right, And I guess the parallels between the two

603
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: is really a lack of transparency and it seems like,

604
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,479
Speaker 1: you know, MBA's basically round both of these projects, But

605
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,239
Speaker 1: did they actually embrace the scientific community and getting the

606
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: technical input that they needed to make really good decisions

607
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: about these I.

608
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 4: Think in both cases absolutely not. And you know, it's

609
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 4: like having a rich but stingy uncle. You know, science

610
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 4: funding it's hard to get in New Zealand, but you know,

611
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 4: every so often the rich uncle will give you something,

612
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 4: but it's not necessarily what you want or need. But

613
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 4: on the other hand, you don't want to say anything

614
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 4: because you know that might make matters worse. But I think,

615
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 4: you know, my view is that if you know, money

616
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 4: is tied in New Zealand, I mean that it would

617
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 4: be nice to but in the shorter term we should

618
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 4: be looking to spend the money that we have most effectively.

619
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 4: One of the things that you see in other countries

620
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 4: is that there are strategies for fields that are developed

621
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 4: collaboratively between the field and the funders. So in the

622
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 4: United States they call them these decatal reviews, and so

623
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 4: this is a you know them, the astrophysics community, for instance,

624
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 4: will decide what kind of investments it needs, will put

625
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 4: together a case for them, it will test. It will

626
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 4: test those cases internally that can be quite quite heated,

627
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 4: but the process of testing it will produce you know,

628
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 4: like a very well you know, like, if there any

629
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 4: holes in the argument, your colleagues will find them because

630
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 4: they'll be pushing some some other investment and then you

631
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:41,959
Speaker 4: you know, then you can make then then the cases

632
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 4: make the government that these are the things that we

633
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 4: should fund. And this is a collaboration between funders and scientists,

634
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 4: but it's an open process and it's you know, this

635
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 4: is this is part of what's driven you know, decades

636
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 4: of progress and fundamental science in the United States, for instance.

637
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 4: But you see some of the processes in Australia or Canada,

638
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 4: and we could do that here and we don't. You know,

639
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 4: we have people the science funders in New Zealand just

640
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 4: trust the advice that they get from scientists. You know,

641
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 4: there's an assumption that everyone will try and push their

642
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 4: on barrow, which which is true to an extent. But

643
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 4: you set the process up in such a way as

644
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 4: that it's you know, it's peer reviewed, it's competed, it's contestable,

645
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 4: it's open, and that leads to good results. What we're

646
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 4: doing here is more likely to lead to trouble because

647
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 4: we're making these kind of slightly random decisions and then

648
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 4: refusing to answer questions about them.

649
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and obviously looking forward in our space industry. I

650
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: think the comments from Judith Collins, I don't think there's

651
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: going to be any more money going towards a new

652
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: methane SAT or a methane'sat too, but she will be

653
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: looking for opportunities in the space industry. So we really

654
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: need more rigor in doing the due diligence, not only

655
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: on the proposals but on the organizations that we're partnering with.

656
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: But my concern is, you know, we're we're writing big

657
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: checks now in artificial intelligence. The Robinson Research Institute has

658
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: been given the commitment of seventy million dollars over the

659
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: next seven years. Similar in quantum. You know, there's some

660
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: money has gone in there. So we've identified and maybe

661
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: that there was some good process around this with the

662
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: Science and Technology Council or panel, they were on board

663
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: with this, But yeah, what due diligence has really actually

664
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: been done on these proposals. There is a contestable process,

665
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: for instance, with the AI funding that's going to be

666
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: dished out, and NB late last year announced the sort

667
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: of the finalists who will move to the next round

668
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: where they will evaluate their proposals more in depth. But

669
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: we've really got to get this right. We can't afford

670
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: another sort of dud where tens of millions of dollars

671
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,239
Speaker 1: go nowhere when you know, science and tech funding is

672
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: so tight in New Zealand completely.

673
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 4: I mean, I think there's a lot of concern about

674
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 4: the quality of the design of those programs.

675
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 3: You know, no disrespect my friends.

676
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 4: Are Robinson, but I think I mean, the one the

677
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 4: one slight saving grace of them is that they're not

678
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 4: going on a single initiative, which was the case with me.

679
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 4: Pain said so once once you had gone down that road,

680
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 4: it was very hard, you know, to turn around. But

681
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 4: you know, the other thing to look at, for instance,

682
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 4: would be the National Science Challenges, and you know, they

683
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 4: were heavily criticized as not being particularly national, not in

684
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 4: some cases being particularly scientific, and not also being very challenging.

685
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 3: There you saw that the people who ran them.

686
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 4: I remember talking to leaders across several of these challenges,

687
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 4: and they used words like salvage, like rescue, like trying

688
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 4: to you know, sort of deal with a situation that

689
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 4: they've been handed. There was also a suggestion that in

690
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 4: many cases the spending had been stitched up by you know,

691
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 4: there's more lobbying than you know, people are hiring government

692
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 4: relations specialists. You know, it's just to get along, you know,

693
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 4: figure out what the minister wants and provide it, rather

694
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 4: than to help the minister and you know, depending on

695
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 4: which minister it is, but rather than a more kind

696
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 4: of collaborative enterprise between the sector and the government to

697
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 4: deliver excellence. And you know the thing that you know,

698
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 4: someone says, you know, what we really want is things

699
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 4: that lead to the thriving in New Zealand. I mean,

700
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 4: I think that's why every country funs science. You know,

701
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 4: it's not it's not just out of you know, a

702
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 4: sort of flowering of human curiosity. There's that there's definitely

703
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 4: a collaboration between the things that motivate scientists and the

704
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 4: things that motivate people who fund scientists. But I think

705
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 4: that that conversation still hasn't happened in New Zealand. I'm

706
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 4: hopeful obviously that things like quantum more AI. We've got

707
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 4: very good people working on those projects, but the structure

708
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 4: around them is not one that makes you comfortable that

709
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 4: that it will guarantee success.

710
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: I looked at some of the proposals on the AI

711
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: stuff the new Advanced Technology Institute that will get funded

712
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: folded into and sure, I look Wet, you know, Wetter

713
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: put in a proposal for a creative AI, you know,

714
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: to bolster the film and that stry and visual effects

715
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. So self interest, but

716
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: sure it's playing to one of our strengths. But I

717
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: really like your idea what you're outlining in other countries

718
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: where the academic community in a particular field gets together

719
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: on a regular basis and says, this is what we need,

720
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: and it's structured in a way so that the self

721
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: interest gets gets weeded out.

722
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 4: Eventually, it's not just what we need, but it's what

723
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 4: we need to do the things that you want. I think.

724
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 4: I think that's the critical thing. You know, So you know,

725
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 4: I'm you know, the CADLE reviews in the States. You know,

726
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 4: the rule of thumb for astrophysics is that a bullet

727
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 4: point in the executive summary is a billion dollars. And

728
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 4: so you know, things like space telescopes, you know, except

729
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 4: one of those and more maybe ten billion. So you know,

730
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 4: there you're seeing justification. And so you have to figure out,

731
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 4: like what are the most exciting things that are happening

732
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 4: in the field right now, How can we what are

733
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 4: the things that we can do that will drive that forward?

734
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 4: And so you know, you're often looking for facilities that

735
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 4: will you know, that will do several things at once.

736
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 4: And I think that the thing that interests me is

737
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 4: that from the governments or US government's point of view,

738
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 4: that's around. You know, they're looking to develop technology, they're

739
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 4: looking for workforce development, and you have to be able

740
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 4: to demonstrate that there will be those synergies. And I

741
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 4: think you know the idea of someone someone had come

742
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 4: to us in twenty eighteen and said, you know, here's

743
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 4: thirty million dollars. I want you to develop things that

744
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 4: will lead you to startups, things that will provide the

745
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 4: workforce for operators, for employers, know, either Rocket Lab or

746
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 4: other people in growing aerospace sector. We could have come

747
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 4: up with a plan and it would have been much

748
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 4: much better than me. Thanks that, I mean infinitely better

749
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 4: than me. Thin's that in many ways, and we weren't

750
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 4: given the opportunity.

751
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: So if you had that opportunity, if someone offered you

752
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: thirty million now to help bolster the space industry, what

753
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: would you be lot sort of things would you be suggesting.

754
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 4: The first thing I would be avoiding is anything that

755
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 4: looked like import substitution. I think the danger is that

756
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 4: we will retreat from methanes At and then we'll do

757
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 4: something that looks more like a Trekker. You know the

758
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 4: cars that were built there at the nineteen success you know,

759
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 4: so you know Elon must puts a Tesla into space,

760
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 4: and we'll put it, you know, knock off Landrover into space,

761
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 4: built on it. You know, go Toby, and no disrespect,

762
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 4: you know, I you know, I think the Trekker is

763
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 4: a beautiful thing and the people who did it were

764
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 4: you brilliant people who worked really hard.

765
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:16,479
Speaker 3: To make it work.

766
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 4: But we have to be looking The first thing we

767
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 4: have to be looking for is things areas, you know,

768
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 4: things in which we can do and lead the world.

769
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 4: So that will be probably kind of technical niches rather

770
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 4: than whole systems necessarily, but you know, these are this

771
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 4: will be something that New Zealand gets.

772
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: Got.

773
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 4: One thing that excites me here at the moment is

774
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 4: that we have two people. So Kia and Dawn are

775
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 4: both building not rockets, but high altitude aircraft. And so

776
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 4: you know, Dawn, you know that's a rocket power plane.

777
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 4: It looks like a little baby space shuttle. The idea

778
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 4: is that will go technically to the edge of space

779
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 4: what they call a common line. Dawn is as has

780
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 4: wings so it's kept up moving through the air. So

781
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 4: Kia the space plane, so you know, that's sixty to

782
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 4: eighty thousand feet I think using the old money. But

783
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 4: both of those these long the idea of being able

784
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 4: to do these suborbital flights repe repeatably, or the idea

785
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 4: of being able to build these very stable platforms that

786
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 4: you know, solar powered so it can stay aloft. Instrumenting

787
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 4: those and being able to observe the New Zealand environment

788
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 4: may in fact be something that's more interesting and also

789
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 4: developing a new niche for the country rather than building

790
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 4: spacecraft per se, because there are a lot of people

791
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 4: doing that and the danger is, you know, we'll build

792
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 4: something that does say maritime domain awareness is the phrase

793
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 4: that people like to use. But it may be that

794
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 4: if we really need a system that does that, possibly

795
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 4: we should be buying one off the shelf, you know,

796
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 4: because it's essentially a military acquisition program. We're rather than

797
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 4: trying to build them ourselves. And I think the distinction

798
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 4: between what we're going to try and do ourselves, and what,

799
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 4: you know, what we should be buying as a commodity

800
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 4: from elsewhere. That's not necessarily a question that we're asking

801
00:39:59,520 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 4: at the moment.

802
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 2: Just finally, Richard, you know, we are in an election year.

803
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: We've had a lot of commentary around we need to

804
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: improve our productivity, we need to be more innovative, we

805
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: need to use advanced technologies to a greater degree.

806
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: The rhetoric is there.

807
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: We've had Supeter Gluckman's panel being put together. They're not

808
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: going to be able to do anything to shift the

809
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: needle in the next year or to This is a

810
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: long term, a decade long sort of play. But do

811
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 1: you get a sense that we are seeing some momentum,

812
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: some vision emerging for science and innovation in New Zealand.

813
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 4: I'm actually disappointed by what's happened so far. I think

814
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 4: there's this idea that scientists just want to do their

815
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 4: own thing. Though I think we under that's what we want.

816
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 4: We want science to contribute to human flourishing. But I

817
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 4: think one of the things that's been misunderstood by the

818
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,959
Speaker 4: current government is that they're moving money out of things

819
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 4: that the liver surprises and sort of unexpected outcomes. And

820
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 4: so you know, we've seen the mast And Fund squeezed

821
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 4: to pay for a shorter term investment. But the things

822
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 4: that are genuinely exciting, a lot of the startups that

823
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 4: you read about, you know, sort of making waves and

824
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 4: the sort of this sort of weightless exports is you know,

825
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 4: as support Calorhan would have put it, those are often

826
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 4: things that came out of the Marsten Fund. And so

827
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 4: but then we see this, oh, we've got to change

828
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 4: the Masten Fund so that it's more you know, that

829
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 4: it's more likely to lead to productive ideas. But the

830
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 4: reality is for a pure science fund, the must And

831
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 4: Fund has already buy global standards much more applied than

832
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 4: the same pots of money would be in other places.

833
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 4: And so there was a clear pipeline out of Marsden

834
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 4: Science and too little startups that can grow into big startups.

835
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 4: The danger is is you fund acause because you think

836
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 4: it's going to give you B. But in fact the

837
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 4: things that tend to be interesting is that you do

838
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 4: A because you thought you were going to get B,

839
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 4: but it actually gives you C, D and E. And

840
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 4: the longer the run up you have between you know

841
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 4: that the more open ended your investigation is, the more

842
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 4: likely it is to lead to surprises. And I think

843
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 4: the Marsden Fund was well set up as well, set

844
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 4: up to do that, and so the idea that we

845
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 4: might be tinkering with that as we have been, you know,

846
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 4: we've limited the scope of that, and I think I

847
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 4: think that shows actually, you know, a fundamental lack of

848
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 4: understanding about high tech innovation happens. You know that that

849
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 4: they're trying to do it in a much more directed

850
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 4: and controlled way. Yeah, things got easily go backwards rather

851
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 4: than forwards. And that's not a money question. That's a

852
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 4: question of how well do we spend the money that

853
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:20,879
Speaker 4: we've gone.

854
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

855
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: And look as you look around the world, they're all

856
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: ramping up their investment and all these emerging technologies like

857
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: AI and quantum and that, but in other countries not

858
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 1: necessarily at the expense of their basic science research which

859
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: creates all of those unexpected things. So if we supplant

860
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: one with the other, that's not necessarily going to get

861
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: us where we want to go.

862
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 4: It's it's not good news. And I think I mean

863
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 4: the amazing thing is is that new Zealand. Most New

864
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 4: Zealanders don't know, for instance, that we have world leading

865
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 4: expertise and high temperature superconnators and so that's you know,

866
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 4: we've got a credible fusion effort, warehouse fusion they call it,

867
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 4: you know, so not open stace fusion, better open start.

868
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 4: Those people are doing beautiful work. They've got you know,

869
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 4: real connections, and that's been driven by expertise that in

870
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 4: many ways was underwritten by the Mustin Fund. By twenty

871
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 4: twenty five years ago, we actually have world leading expertise

872
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 4: and quantum sensing and quantum devices and again that was

873
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 4: paid for by the must And Fund and you know,

874
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 4: going back twenty five to thirty years. And when that

875
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 4: was done, it wasn't with the expectation that we were

876
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 4: building a quantum computer in twenty twenty six. And so

877
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 4: if you look where the real muscle is in New Zealand,

878
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 4: it's muscled and in many cases has been paid for.

879
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,760
Speaker 4: You know, we we can do fascinating things in quantum.

880
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 4: There's a whole field of quantum optics that was co

881
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 4: founded essentially by Dan Willis, who was a professor at

882
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 4: all and so that that opportunity, I think is something

883
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 4: that we risk leaving on the table if we think, oh,

884
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 4: you know, we're only going to do something that where

885
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 4: we can see much shorter time horizon, and so that

886
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 4: kind of you know, well directed but also curiosity lead

887
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 4: sign is what's underwriting the most exciting things in our

888
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 4: tech sector at the moment, but it wasn't paid for

889
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 4: by people who are looking for immediate return.

890
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: Well, thanks Richard for unpacking all of that for us.

891
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: A lot of good ideas and hopefully some ideas that

892
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: will be taken on board by our officials at MB

893
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: who tend to run a lot of these sort of

894
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: science investments, as well as our politician who I think

895
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 1: this has probably been a bit of a baptism of

896
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: fire for Judith Collins into science portfolio, the space portfolio.

897
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:27,879
Speaker 2: That's for sure.

898
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 4: Judith Collins is not you know, she's not everybody's cup

899
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 4: of tea, but she's very high energy, she gets things done,

900
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 4: and she's someone who has real way at the cabinet table.

901
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 4: And I think the idea of having a minister that

902
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 4: can make things happen for a sector, I think that's

903
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 4: something that that's hugely important.

904
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for your contribution, Richard, huge contribution to science

905
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: in New Zealand, and thanks so much for coming on.

906
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 2: A business of tech.

907
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 3: Thank you.

908
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: A couple of developments since my interview with Richard recorded

909
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: last week. Literally thirty minutes after I spoke to him,

910
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 1: Judith Collins called a press conference to announce her resignation

911
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: from politics after nearly twenty five years as a National

912
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: Member of Parliament, during which time she held a total

913
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: of eighteen ministerial portfolios. She's off to become the President

914
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: of the Law Society. Good for her, she really did

915
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: leave her mark on the political landscape.

916
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 2: That means we'll be getting a new science minister.

917
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: It will be hard to find someone as enthusiastic a

918
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: champion of the space sector as Judith Collins. But the

919
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: new minister should take some time to look at what

920
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: happened with methane SAT, demand a more strategic approach to

921
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: building our space sector. That should involve consulting more widely

922
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 1: on how we best invest in space and in space

923
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: projects where we put those limited dollars that we have.

924
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: And just a couple of days ago, the New Zealand

925
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: Association of Scientists issued a pretty blistering statement suggesting the

926
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: sciences currently underway are failing before they've even got going.

927
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: That's due to a lack of stability, accountability and independence,

928
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: according to the Association of Scientists. They take particular aim

929
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,720
Speaker 1: at MB, saying that sufficient answers on methane SAT haven't

930
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: been forthcoming and I quote the failure may be representative

931
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: of wider problems in how MB has failed to manage

932
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: science at scale. They also say we join calls for

933
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: the Auditor General to investigate and report back ahead of

934
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: the election.

935
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 2: Wow.

936
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: So we'll see where that goes and if the government

937
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 1: actually heeds that call. Some strong stuff from the Association

938
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: of Scientists. Would love to hear your views on this too,

939
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: especially if you work in or around the science system.

940
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: Get in touch with me via the Business Desk website

941
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: or drop me a DM on LinkedIn or x. Thanks

942
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: so much to Richardisa for coming on, and thanks to

943
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: two Degrees for sponsoring the show, which you can find

944
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.

945
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 2: Apple, Spotify, or wherever.

946
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 1: You get your podcasts. Catch you next Thursday for another

947
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: episode of the Business of Tech.