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Speaker 1: What don't we make of this report and to so

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Speaker 1: called police racism, There isn't enough fairness and equity in

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Speaker 1: policing services. Apparently the issues are systemic. The Policeman Commissioner

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Speaker 1: Andrew Costa with us good morning.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, MIKEL.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting mixed messages out of this report. Are you

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Speaker 1: racist or not?

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Speaker 2: The report has found gaps in relation to outcomes for

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Speaker 2: people depending on their backgrounds. However, the report has also

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Speaker 2: found that many of those gaps can be explained by

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Speaker 2: things that occur upstream of police. For example, drug and

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Speaker 2: alcohol is shoes, mental health issues and so on. So

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Speaker 2: the outcomes are actually very confirmatory of what police would

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Speaker 2: say about what counter is.

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Speaker 1: This robust research? It seems to be based more on

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Speaker 1: a vibe than hard statistical data.

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Speaker 2: It is robust and it's been done by respected researchers

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Speaker 2: and overseeing by experienced research panel. There are different methodologies

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Speaker 2: that have been used, and of course you know there's

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Speaker 2: a mix of data where it's available and then also

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Speaker 2: speaking to people's lived experience. If you're like so, it

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Speaker 2: is a mix of methodology.

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Speaker 1: Right, So when they say you're more likely to be

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Speaker 1: stopped if you Maori. How do they come to that conclusion.

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Speaker 2: That conclusion is difficult based on data. The data that

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Speaker 2: we're strongest on is around prosecutions, where we have a

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Speaker 2: pretty rich data set. That one's really interesting because the

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Speaker 2: raw data might suggest that Maria is much as three

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Speaker 2: times more likely to be prosecuted three hundred percent, but

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Speaker 2: when you account for offending history has been seriously, it's

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Speaker 2: more like twelve percent exactly.

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Speaker 1: So that was my next question. So surely you are

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Speaker 1: more likely to be charged if you're already in the system,

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Speaker 1: you're known to the police, and you commit yet another crime.

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Speaker 1: I mean, why wouldn't you get charged? The fact you

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Speaker 1: happened to be Maor's neither here nor there. You're a criminal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the strongest driver likelihood to charge is actually

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Speaker 2: if you're a member of a gang, who roughly two

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Speaker 2: hundred percent more likely to be charged non gang members.

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Speaker 2: And then factors like previous offending age shows, you know,

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Speaker 2: as indicative as a as a sort of factor. So

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Speaker 2: there are whole lot of things that come into it.

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Speaker 2: But in the end, the report does suggest that please

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Speaker 2: significantly deal with what is in front of us and

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Speaker 2: make Yeah.

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Speaker 1: See I'm trying to defend you on this because I

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Speaker 1: just if you're a member of a gang, once again,

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Speaker 1: the fact that you're Maori is neither here nor there now.

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Speaker 1: The a lot of Marian gangs, but we know that.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, if you're a gang member who breaks

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Speaker 1: the law, I would expect you as the police to

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Speaker 1: do something about it. What's that got to do with race?

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Speaker 2: And we know that gangs are very prominent and offending

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Speaker 2: in our communities. It dealing drugs and whatever else, and

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Speaker 2: that doesn't form the approach our people take now. To

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Speaker 2: be fair, there is still an unexplained gap and some

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Speaker 2: of the work that we need to continue to do.

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Speaker 2: But that explain gap has been reducing at quite a rate.

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Speaker 2: So five years ago it was nineteen percent. As of

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Speaker 2: this research, it's now at twelve percent. So there are

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Speaker 2: things that are also making shift in a positive way.

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Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, But part of the problem

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Speaker 1: solving that you would be under eye as far as

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Speaker 1: I can work out from my casual observation of the

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Speaker 1: police force in this country, it would be one of

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Speaker 1: the most multicultural operations going. Is that not true? And

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Speaker 1: if it is true, surely that would help address the

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Speaker 1: perceived problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredibly diverse, and the young people coming in

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Speaker 2: to our organization today are very alive to these issues

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Speaker 2: and they are very careful. So I have a huge

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Speaker 2: amount of confidence and how people were dealing with very

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Speaker 2: difficult situations every day. But it is a great police service.

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Speaker 1: Right while, I've got you a couple of other things.

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Speaker 1: The layoffs announced yesterday, swear hand on heart. There are

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Speaker 1: no frontline people being affected by this.

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Speaker 2: All of the roles that are in focus in there

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Speaker 2: are a non frontline roles, so they are in the

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Speaker 2: corporate support area. Now, you don't get a frontline officer

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Speaker 2: on the street without a car and a property to

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Speaker 2: be based and technology to support them. And so these

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Speaker 2: roles do relate to some of those areas, but none

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Speaker 2: of the roles impacted our frontline roles.

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Speaker 1: Can you cope?

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Speaker 2: Look, we're a big organization. It's a large number, but

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Speaker 2: as a percentage it's not huge. And in the end

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Speaker 2: haven't finance as the type we've been asked to make

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Speaker 2: a contribution, and that's what we have to do.

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Speaker 1: The Auckland CBD stats, crime is coming down, People on

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Speaker 1: the beat is working. Do you believe the numbers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do, and those numbers have been on a

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Speaker 2: gradual decline since about March twenty twenty three. Now there's

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Speaker 2: a lot more work to do, and I do think

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Speaker 2: that we're making progress. A lot of the issues are

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Speaker 2: in sort of anti social behavior more so than criminal offending,

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Speaker 2: and those problems are a bit stickier to address and

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Speaker 2: needs a broader effort. But yep, I think we're making

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Speaker 2: a difference.

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Speaker 1: And the formal warning issue, you've got that the court

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Speaker 1: has found that if the person didn't agree with you,

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Speaker 1: then it's illegal. Were you handing out formal warnings in

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Speaker 1: lieu of arresting people and doing proper policing or not.

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Speaker 2: I'll give you the most likely one of the scenarios

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Speaker 2: that featured in formal warnings, and it's the situation where

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Speaker 2: you have, say, a sexual assault allegation, you don't have

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Speaker 2: enough evidence to pursue it in court, and the offender

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Speaker 2: was willing to accept a warning but wouldn't admit the offending.

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Speaker 2: That was quite often a good closure for a complainant

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Speaker 2: because they would at least feel like the person has

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Speaker 2: had that addressed. But the court's regularly said, basically, if

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Speaker 2: you can't prove it in court, then you can't give

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Speaker 2: a warning, and so that significantly reduces the opportunity for

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Speaker 2: for that kind of.

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Speaker 1: Activity that make your life more difficult.

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Speaker 2: Uh, look at in the that's what the law says.

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Speaker 2: I do think that that resolution made a difference for

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Speaker 2: some complainants who maybe didn't want to go through a

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Speaker 2: court process but felt like if the offending had at

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Speaker 2: least been addressed in some way. But you know, in

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Speaker 2: the end, if we if we can't prove it, the

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Speaker 2: law says, we can't woman for it, and that's kind

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Speaker 2: of where we are.

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Speaker 1: Okay, appreciate it. Andrew costa police commissioner.

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Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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Speaker 2: news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow

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