WEBVTT - Leighton Smith Podcast #280 - April 16th 2025 - Nick Cater 0:00:09.093 --> 0:00:11.973 You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B. 0:00:12.373 --> 0:00:16.173 Follow this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:16.693 --> 0:00:19.733 It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 0:00:19.773 --> 0:00:24.813 the information, all the debates of the now, the Leighton 0:00:24.933 --> 0:00:27.293 Smith Podcast powered by news. 0:00:27.093 --> 0:00:27.613 Talks it B. 0:00:27.933 --> 0:00:31.013 Welcome to Podcast two hundred and eighty for April sixteen, 0:00:31.093 --> 0:00:35.293 twenty twenty five. The Australian election on May third may 0:00:35.493 --> 0:00:38.933 even be more important for New Zealand than our own ballot. 0:00:38.693 --> 0:00:41.413 Of twenty twenty six How is that? 0:00:41.493 --> 0:00:42.133 She might ask? 0:00:42.373 --> 0:00:46.173 And the response is that Australia has become not just 0:00:46.293 --> 0:00:49.853 New Zealand's second home, but a bolt hole for hundreds 0:00:49.853 --> 0:00:53.213 of thousands of Kiwis. The number may well be a 0:00:53.293 --> 0:00:56.773 million or a bit more. The only realistic alternative to 0:00:56.813 --> 0:00:59.813 those who have declared that New Zealand does not hold 0:00:59.853 --> 0:01:04.053 their future not just an overseas experience, but a conviction 0:01:04.333 --> 0:01:06.373 that the grass is greener on the other side of 0:01:06.373 --> 0:01:10.213 the Tasman. There they're going, and there they will stay, 0:01:10.573 --> 0:01:13.773 well maybe. Nick Cator discusses the pros and cons of 0:01:13.853 --> 0:01:17.613 the Lucky Culture, a book that he wrote twelve years ago, 0:01:17.893 --> 0:01:21.213 and how the outcome of the election will affect the 0:01:21.253 --> 0:01:25.653 future unless be blunt. The Australian election so far has 0:01:25.693 --> 0:01:29.893 been described as the most boring, the most tedious, the 0:01:29.933 --> 0:01:35.973 most useless, the most unimaginative, the most unproductive election ever. 0:01:36.213 --> 0:01:38.493 And it makes me think of that great Australian song 0:01:38.773 --> 0:01:42.093 I still call Australia Home, And I guess how out 0:01:42.133 --> 0:01:45.133 of date it might be, sing a songwriter who both 0:01:45.173 --> 0:01:48.373 wrote and performed it, Peter Allen, would be churning in 0:01:48.453 --> 0:01:52.333 his grave. Now, before we get to Nick Cater himself, 0:01:52.853 --> 0:01:56.893 let me quote you something that he wrote recently April seven. 0:01:57.293 --> 0:02:00.573 It's called beyond parody. In November of nineteen ninety seven, 0:02:00.653 --> 0:02:04.493 Christopher Pearson speculated in a column in the Australian Financial 0:02:04.533 --> 0:02:08.733 Review on how long the global warming panic would be last. 0:02:09.413 --> 0:02:13.733 Two decades earlier, global cooling and the coming ice age 0:02:13.773 --> 0:02:18.053 had caused similar anxiety, yet had been largely forgotten. Perhaps, 0:02:18.093 --> 0:02:21.853 having safely negotiated the millennium, which is a major cause 0:02:21.933 --> 0:02:26.093 of all this anxiety, we may collectively surrender to about 0:02:26.133 --> 0:02:30.173 of unqualified optimism. He wrote that he wrote more I 0:02:30.293 --> 0:02:34.093 doubt it because the appetite for catastrophe is now highly 0:02:34.133 --> 0:02:39.453 developed and mass media delight in pandering to it. Pearson's 0:02:39.493 --> 0:02:44.093 pessimism was well placed. The climate change narrative proved to 0:02:44.093 --> 0:02:49.613 be exceptionally robust despite its weak empirical foundations. Only now 0:02:49.933 --> 0:02:52.333 a quarter of the way through the twenty first century 0:02:52.693 --> 0:02:56.573 and more than a decade after Pearson's untimely death, is 0:02:56.653 --> 0:03:00.373 the global warming paradigm collapsing under the weight of its 0:03:00.373 --> 0:03:04.293 own complexity. And after the mail room we shall continue 0:03:04.413 --> 0:03:08.173 with Well, we'll expand on what I've just quoted with 0:03:08.733 --> 0:03:14.453 a lot more detail. But note both climate science and 0:03:14.613 --> 0:03:19.053 medical science have much to answer for, as do some 0:03:19.333 --> 0:03:22.973 specific individuals in different areas of both. 0:03:23.453 --> 0:03:25.333 But in a moment. Nic Cato. 0:03:32.733 --> 0:03:36.373 Buccolan is a natural oral vaccine in a tablet form 0:03:36.453 --> 0:03:40.813 called bacterial nicate. It'll boost your natural protection against bacterial 0:03:40.853 --> 0:03:43.813 infections in your chest and throat. A three day course 0:03:43.853 --> 0:03:46.533 of seven Buckland tablets will help your body build up 0:03:46.533 --> 0:03:50.853 to three months of immunity against bugs which cause bacterial 0:03:50.933 --> 0:03:54.493 cold symptoms. So who can take buccolan well, the whole family. 0:03:54.573 --> 0:03:57.253 From two years of age and upwards, A course of 0:03:57.333 --> 0:04:01.013 Bucklan tablets offers cost effective and safe protection from colds 0:04:01.093 --> 0:04:04.773 and chills. Protection becomes effective a few days after you 0:04:04.813 --> 0:04:07.893 take buccolan and lasts for up to three months following 0:04:07.893 --> 0:04:10.813 the three days course. Buccolin can be taken throughout the 0:04:10.853 --> 0:04:13.813 cold season, over winter, or all the year round. And 0:04:13.933 --> 0:04:17.893 remember bucklin is not intended as an alternative to influenza vaccination, 0:04:18.373 --> 0:04:21.253 but may be used along with the flu vaccination for 0:04:21.613 --> 0:04:24.893 added protection. And keep in mind that millions of doses 0:04:24.933 --> 0:04:28.213 have been taken by Kiwis for over fifty years. Only 0:04:28.253 --> 0:04:32.493 available from your pharmacist. Always read the label and users directed, 0:04:32.693 --> 0:04:40.013 and see your doctor if systems persist. Farmer Broker Auckland. 0:04:51.773 --> 0:04:52.253 Now, with the. 0:04:52.213 --> 0:04:55.133 Australian election in mind, back in I'm going to take 0:04:55.133 --> 0:04:59.893 you back to twenty thirteen, twelve years ago, twelve years 0:04:59.893 --> 0:05:03.253 ago almost to the day, when a book was released, 0:05:03.413 --> 0:05:07.493 The Lucky Culture and the Rise of an Australian Ruling Class, 0:05:08.493 --> 0:05:11.653 And the author of the book came to New Zealand 0:05:11.733 --> 0:05:13.733 and I met him for the first time and we 0:05:13.773 --> 0:05:16.173 did an interview and it was very good and we 0:05:16.253 --> 0:05:19.613 have remained good contacts ever since. I want to quote 0:05:19.653 --> 0:05:23.813 you something A bold and provocative book about Australia's national 0:05:23.853 --> 0:05:26.573 identity and how it is threatened by the rise of 0:05:26.573 --> 0:05:31.253 a ruling class. Nick cat, senior editor at The Australian, 0:05:31.653 --> 0:05:36.253 tracks the seismic changes in Australian culture and outlook since 0:05:36.293 --> 0:05:40.093 Donald Horn wrote The Lucky Country in nineteen sixty four. 0:05:40.453 --> 0:05:42.613 His belief is that countries don't get lucky. 0:05:42.653 --> 0:05:43.093 People do. 0:05:43.733 --> 0:05:46.373 The secret of Australia's good fortune is not found in 0:05:46.413 --> 0:05:50.133 its geography or history. The key to its success is 0:05:50.213 --> 0:05:56.253 the Australian character, the nation's greatest renewable resource. The commentator 0:05:56.293 --> 0:06:01.093 then concludes, I particularly loved Nick Kato's passion for the 0:06:01.093 --> 0:06:04.893 great Australian dream. It is the first step in restoring 0:06:05.013 --> 0:06:10.733 that dream. The author of that review was one Rupert Murdoch. Nick, 0:06:10.773 --> 0:06:12.973 you must have been very flatted when he wrote that 0:06:13.013 --> 0:06:13.253 for you. 0:06:14.413 --> 0:06:17.093 Oh, yes I was. I was quite amazed that he 0:06:17.133 --> 0:06:17.933 had time to read it. 0:06:17.973 --> 0:06:19.813 Really. Yes. 0:06:19.853 --> 0:06:22.813 He was very kind about the book and ordered a 0:06:22.853 --> 0:06:24.533 bunch of copies that we had to send over to 0:06:24.533 --> 0:06:26.973 New York, who was going to give to his senior executive. 0:06:27.053 --> 0:06:29.613 So I was quite pleased about that. So I think 0:06:29.613 --> 0:06:33.213 the book, in its way had had quite an influence 0:06:33.253 --> 0:06:34.413 on the debate at the time. 0:06:35.253 --> 0:06:38.133 Now the question is, and the reason that I wanted 0:06:38.173 --> 0:06:42.413 to quote that was in the twelve years since, what's changed, 0:06:42.813 --> 0:06:46.413 what has happened that might have denied you the goal 0:06:46.493 --> 0:06:47.173 that you set. 0:06:49.213 --> 0:06:51.413 I think I've sort of nailed it really with that 0:06:52.693 --> 0:06:55.013 idea of the rise of a ruling class, you know, 0:06:55.093 --> 0:07:00.373 by which I mean the people that we variously call 0:07:00.453 --> 0:07:05.493 the elite, the anointed. You know, we got all sorts 0:07:05.533 --> 0:07:07.733 of names for them. We haven't really glanded on a name, 0:07:07.773 --> 0:07:10.493 and both we've come up more recently with the idea 0:07:10.533 --> 0:07:13.613 that you know, they are the woke people, the woke class. 0:07:14.893 --> 0:07:16.213 But it's definitely there. 0:07:16.253 --> 0:07:17.973 And and I remember at the time when I wrote 0:07:17.973 --> 0:07:20.973 that book twelve years ago, going on Q and A, 0:07:21.093 --> 0:07:24.333 which is a show on the ABC and the and 0:07:24.373 --> 0:07:28.853 the host was genuinely genuinely confused about what I meant 0:07:28.853 --> 0:07:31.093 by the elite. He said, aren't you're a member of 0:07:31.093 --> 0:07:33.333 the elite. Aren't you're You know I was a member 0:07:33.333 --> 0:07:35.893 of the elite, because I'm at that stage I was 0:07:36.453 --> 0:07:39.173 a senior editor at The Australian and I guess I 0:07:39.253 --> 0:07:42.893 still have various titles classifive years the elite, because that's 0:07:42.933 --> 0:07:44.613 that's to misunderstand what I was saying. 0:07:45.733 --> 0:07:48.373 It's a. It's an attitude of mine. 0:07:48.413 --> 0:07:51.173 It's whether you think you're there, you know you have 0:07:51.573 --> 0:07:53.973 you have have the right to boss other people around 0:07:54.013 --> 0:07:55.533 and tell them what to do, and tell them what's 0:07:55.613 --> 0:07:57.853 the car they can drive, and what they need, what 0:07:57.973 --> 0:07:59.653 kind of how many solar panels, the need to put 0:07:59.693 --> 0:08:02.013 on their roofs, all these things that have crept into 0:08:02.013 --> 0:08:04.573 our lives from people who have this perfect vision of 0:08:04.573 --> 0:08:08.333 how society should be. But they've become very, very power 0:08:08.693 --> 0:08:12.293 and even more much more so since I've been you know, 0:08:12.293 --> 0:08:14.933 in the last twelve years. And it's interesting to note, 0:08:15.373 --> 0:08:17.133 you know, I looked in the book at the big 0:08:17.173 --> 0:08:21.333 issues at the time that were dividing the country, and 0:08:22.133 --> 0:08:24.493 you know, there were things obviously like climate change was 0:08:24.533 --> 0:08:29.333 a big one, the Iraq War, human rights. In the 0:08:29.413 --> 0:08:32.373 terms of race relations, there was all that stuff going 0:08:32.413 --> 0:08:36.373 on back then about the Race Relations Commissioner getting ahead 0:08:36.373 --> 0:08:38.013 of themselves, et cetera, et cetera. 0:08:38.253 --> 0:08:40.853 But that I didn't mention in that book. 0:08:40.853 --> 0:08:45.573 There's no mention whatsoever of same sex marriage. And yet 0:08:45.613 --> 0:08:48.173 that was that was to come about well, I think 0:08:48.213 --> 0:08:51.173 five years later, but at the time twenty twelve, you 0:08:51.293 --> 0:08:54.973 just didn't it wasn't even talked about nobody spoke about it. 0:08:54.973 --> 0:08:58.133 The Prime minister of the day, Labor prime Minister said 0:08:58.733 --> 0:09:01.653 they believed in traditional marriage to the foreign minister who 0:09:01.733 --> 0:09:05.493 the gaff current foreign minister believed in traditional marriage. So 0:09:05.893 --> 0:09:09.333 then one moment they all believed in traditional marriage and 0:09:09.333 --> 0:09:11.773 the next they didn't. Their whole country sort of flipped. 0:09:11.853 --> 0:09:15.373 So they have these kind of crusades and things which 0:09:15.413 --> 0:09:18.773 come out of the blue and come from nowhere, and 0:09:19.093 --> 0:09:20.613 they're always moving on to the next one. 0:09:20.773 --> 0:09:22.573 Do you think do you think that Obama headed anything 0:09:22.653 --> 0:09:24.333 to do with that that change? 0:09:25.373 --> 0:09:28.373 He was, Yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't think. 0:09:28.493 --> 0:09:31.653 My theory is not that they these people an individual 0:09:31.693 --> 0:09:34.013 will influence it to the extent they'll drive it. But 0:09:34.053 --> 0:09:38.573 they certainly empower people. You know, if Obama parmas, Obama 0:09:38.773 --> 0:09:44.373 certainly empowered people to get quite aggressive on these kind 0:09:44.413 --> 0:09:50.133 of issues, and that spreads the course around the globe, 0:09:50.493 --> 0:09:53.933 just as Trump is empowering people in the opposite direction 0:09:54.053 --> 0:09:57.453 now and a kind of counter revolution against that. You know, 0:09:57.653 --> 0:10:00.973 people feel people who don't go along with this woke 0:10:01.093 --> 0:10:03.533 nonsense feel empowered now to say so in a way 0:10:03.573 --> 0:10:06.773 that they didn't before. Because Trump's sort of paved away, 0:10:06.813 --> 0:10:10.133 and so it's okay, nothing happens if you just if 0:10:10.173 --> 0:10:12.253 you state that a man and a woman at two 0:10:12.293 --> 0:10:12.893 different things. 0:10:12.933 --> 0:10:14.973 You know, those sort of statements. 0:10:15.613 --> 0:10:19.893 So the title the Lucky Culture it was as you 0:10:19.933 --> 0:10:22.973 saw at them. Would it be the same title now 0:10:23.053 --> 0:10:24.173 were you writing it again? 0:10:26.053 --> 0:10:28.653 I know it wouldn't be the same title. I don't think. 0:10:29.853 --> 0:10:32.493 I think I've been writing much more about this division, 0:10:34.093 --> 0:10:38.573 cultural division between the elite and the rest of the country, 0:10:38.933 --> 0:10:42.053 which is so pronounced, and it's really the driving force 0:10:42.093 --> 0:10:45.293 in politics now. As I said in the book, I 0:10:45.333 --> 0:10:51.373 wrote that it was the cultural The new political dividing 0:10:51.413 --> 0:10:53.613 line in the country was not left versus right in 0:10:53.653 --> 0:10:57.893 the traditional sense. It wasn't labor versus liberal and national. 0:10:58.613 --> 0:11:01.413 It wasn't Catholic versus Protestants as it once was in 0:11:01.453 --> 0:11:05.573 this country. It was this division and that holds good. 0:11:05.613 --> 0:11:08.133 That's the way people vote. And you've seen in that 0:11:08.733 --> 0:11:12.813 seeing politics in Australia evolve to try and adjust to 0:11:12.853 --> 0:11:15.253 those new lines. So you know, we had this rise 0:11:15.253 --> 0:11:17.813 of the Teal MPs, which you might have read about 0:11:18.253 --> 0:11:23.053 the last the last election when there were five seats 0:11:23.093 --> 0:11:25.413 six in all because they'd lost one of the previous election, 0:11:25.573 --> 0:11:30.333 six coalition seats, six conservative seats that were just suddenly 0:11:30.373 --> 0:11:34.053 taken over by this new party. It is a party. 0:11:33.253 --> 0:11:37.933 They style themselves as community independents, but in every way 0:11:38.253 --> 0:11:41.933 they got their justice parties. They operate as parties, but 0:11:41.973 --> 0:11:46.653 they are how would you describe them political terms? I mean, 0:11:46.653 --> 0:11:49.933 the first thing to notice that they're funded largely by 0:11:49.933 --> 0:11:53.293 the renewable energy industry, and that's two huge amounts of money. 0:11:53.333 --> 0:11:57.013 But that's because they're very pro say, doing something for 0:11:57.093 --> 0:11:59.853 the climate. But they sort of styled themselves as a 0:11:59.893 --> 0:12:03.293 slightly nicer version of the Liberal Party. In fact, there's 0:12:03.333 --> 0:12:06.333 something quite different than more kinder the Green Party if 0:12:06.333 --> 0:12:09.733 you look at their voting patterns. But that's that's what's happened, 0:12:09.773 --> 0:12:14.293 you know. It's it's the old blue collar, solid conservative 0:12:14.893 --> 0:12:22.373 coalition territory in the inner metropolitan areas has just defected 0:12:22.413 --> 0:12:24.133 from the mainstream parties, and. 0:12:24.133 --> 0:12:27.453 The and the and the the seats that they have 0:12:27.613 --> 0:12:30.693 been successful in, you'd have to say, would you not 0:12:30.853 --> 0:12:34.133 in practically every case the top end. 0:12:35.013 --> 0:12:38.413 Oh, in every case, the top end, it's stark, It's 0:12:38.453 --> 0:12:41.373 it's absolutely stark. So it seats well if you come 0:12:41.413 --> 0:12:43.053 in if you if you were to come in by 0:12:43.173 --> 0:12:45.933 boat to Sydney. I don't know any anybody does that 0:12:45.973 --> 0:12:49.893 for New Zealand these days. But as you enter the heads, 0:12:50.493 --> 0:12:52.373 you know, to the left and right to the north 0:12:52.413 --> 0:12:56.173 and south, you've got Teal territory lining the harbor right 0:12:56.213 --> 0:12:59.333 the way along to the city, and then it extends 0:12:59.573 --> 0:13:01.613 up to the north up right up to Pittwater. There's 0:13:01.613 --> 0:13:05.493 another Teal seat and so on in Melbourne, the same 0:13:05.573 --> 0:13:10.013 in you know what was men this blue ribbon seat 0:13:09.773 --> 0:13:13.653 of tour of Kuyon, you know around Turak and that 0:13:13.693 --> 0:13:18.853 sort of territory that is now Teal country. And so 0:13:20.613 --> 0:13:24.453 that exactly the electorates they've got. And it's interesting if 0:13:24.453 --> 0:13:27.493 you look at the demographics, they are starkly different to 0:13:27.533 --> 0:13:30.453 the rest of the country, largely because of their wealth. 0:13:30.613 --> 0:13:31.173 You know that. 0:13:32.653 --> 0:13:36.813 Their average household wealth is probably about twice the national average. 0:13:36.973 --> 0:13:40.453 They're very comfortably off. They don't actually drive much. They 0:13:40.533 --> 0:13:43.693 drive a little bit, but they don't have big car 0:13:43.813 --> 0:13:46.253 journeys to work or anything like that. They live completely 0:13:46.253 --> 0:13:50.173 different lives in many respects. Very large number of people, 0:13:50.493 --> 0:13:52.853 something like fifty percent or up to fifty percent own 0:13:52.893 --> 0:13:55.893 their own home outright, and there's only about twenty five 0:13:55.893 --> 0:13:58.493 percent on a mortgage, so they have quite a different life. 0:13:58.573 --> 0:14:01.133 And you can imagine what we've been through recently with 0:14:01.253 --> 0:14:04.653 rising interest rates. They've been largely untouched. You know, there's 0:14:04.653 --> 0:14:08.493 no household recession happening in those parts of Australia. They're 0:14:08.493 --> 0:14:11.333 completely out of touch. The very people I described in 0:14:11.373 --> 0:14:13.133 my book, you know, the sort of strangers in their 0:14:13.133 --> 0:14:16.973 own country in a way, but they don't know that 0:14:17.173 --> 0:14:19.333 there's things that they are Australia. They think the rest 0:14:19.333 --> 0:14:22.933 of Australia thinks the way that they do, because it doesn't. 0:14:22.973 --> 0:14:27.333 It thinks in a very different way. Well let's get 0:14:27.373 --> 0:14:29.013 to that well shortly. 0:14:29.573 --> 0:14:34.173 But you mentioned Coujong and you mentioned Mensis, the Prime 0:14:34.173 --> 0:14:38.853 minister who established the Liberal Party, which is supposedly the 0:14:38.893 --> 0:14:43.853 equivalent of National here. But there are differences that well 0:14:43.893 --> 0:14:46.413 we won't waste time on. But what popped into my 0:14:46.453 --> 0:14:50.573 head when I heard you mentioned both those names, Coujong 0:14:50.613 --> 0:14:53.573 and Mensis, how do you because you've done a lot 0:14:53.573 --> 0:14:57.053 of work on Mensis, how would he react today to 0:14:58.013 --> 0:15:00.133 well to the teals. 0:15:00.893 --> 0:15:03.133 Well, yeah, it's a very interesting question. 0:15:03.173 --> 0:15:05.373 I've never addressed that I'm going to now though, and 0:15:05.613 --> 0:15:09.773 maybe there's a basis for a column in this he well, 0:15:09.853 --> 0:15:14.093 Mensi's Mensi's great strength was political strength was his appeal 0:15:14.173 --> 0:15:17.293 to what he called the forgotten people. And and they're 0:15:17.813 --> 0:15:20.533 you know, they're they're the middle class people, hard working 0:15:20.573 --> 0:15:26.333 people most of them, but not particularly wealthy and not 0:15:26.333 --> 0:15:29.893 not particularly poor. They're just people that want their kids 0:15:29.933 --> 0:15:33.733 to do well at school and build themselves a better life. 0:15:34.413 --> 0:15:37.733 Their their homeowners, and Men's has made them homeowners, homeowning. 0:15:37.893 --> 0:15:41.413 Home ownership went up dramatically under his goal, because under 0:15:41.413 --> 0:15:43.533 his years, because he saw that as a vital part 0:15:43.533 --> 0:15:49.733 of a stable society and making families prosperous. So yeah, 0:15:49.773 --> 0:15:52.573 so he's supporting those people. Well, he's the people that 0:15:52.573 --> 0:15:57.333 we're talking about who now occupy Kuyong and these suburbs. 0:15:57.573 --> 0:16:00.693 And not exactly those people for the most part, you know, 0:16:00.773 --> 0:16:03.773 they are they are the wealthy ones. Mensis described some, 0:16:04.213 --> 0:16:06.613 you know, the sort of upper class or the wealthy 0:16:06.653 --> 0:16:11.853 class in his famous Forgotten People's speech as people that's 0:16:11.893 --> 0:16:14.253 not what the Liberal Party is for, because they are 0:16:14.293 --> 0:16:18.653 pretty they can look after themselves. They don't need, you know, 0:16:18.893 --> 0:16:22.533 a government to to speak to come out and speak 0:16:22.573 --> 0:16:25.333 and do things on their behalf. They can get on 0:16:25.413 --> 0:16:27.573 with life, just as the trade unions could. 0:16:28.253 --> 0:16:28.853 His views. 0:16:28.933 --> 0:16:31.733 So the middle the middle class come in the middle 0:16:31.773 --> 0:16:34.133 of that, and these are the very people that have 0:16:34.213 --> 0:16:36.613 been dispossessed. So I think he might be quite appalled 0:16:36.653 --> 0:16:39.053 at some of the attitudes of the teals and their 0:16:39.893 --> 0:16:44.773 their sneering approach to ordinary people, and how they condemn 0:16:44.853 --> 0:16:47.493 them because they don't you pack the right things in 0:16:47.533 --> 0:16:51.013 the lunch boxes, and you know, they they don't drive 0:16:51.053 --> 0:16:54.773 electric cars, and so he would he would find that 0:16:56.333 --> 0:16:58.973 are wrong, because men's at the heart of Mensis. The 0:16:59.053 --> 0:17:03.293 key to understanding Mensis is really the Christian Gospel. Although 0:17:03.573 --> 0:17:05.613 he didn't he wasn't a God bother in the sense 0:17:05.653 --> 0:17:09.293 he didn't talk, you know, shake people believing in God 0:17:09.373 --> 0:17:12.893 or anything like that. But he was deeply Christian and 0:17:12.933 --> 0:17:16.453 he believed that everybody was equal before God. And the 0:17:17.573 --> 0:17:21.013 translation of that in politics is everybody deserves equal respect, 0:17:21.053 --> 0:17:24.573 everybody deserves a fair go. And that's an expression which 0:17:24.893 --> 0:17:27.213 we talked about so much. When I first came to 0:17:27.253 --> 0:17:30.133 Australia in nineteen eighty nine, knew about what a fair 0:17:30.213 --> 0:17:33.693 go was. You hardly hear that expression. These days. But 0:17:33.093 --> 0:17:36.733 that's at the basis of how Australians used to treat 0:17:36.773 --> 0:17:39.773 one another as just a matter of course, that everybody 0:17:39.813 --> 0:17:44.053 deserved a fair go, and you didn't judge somebody just 0:17:44.093 --> 0:17:47.013 simply because they were, you know, they had a lowly 0:17:47.133 --> 0:17:50.733 job or they were down on their life. You said 0:17:50.773 --> 0:17:52.253 a low to them and you tried to help them 0:17:52.253 --> 0:17:52.893 out if you could. 0:17:54.093 --> 0:17:55.613 I don't know whether I mentioned this to you, but 0:17:55.653 --> 0:17:59.053 my grandfather was the mirror of Preston for a period 0:17:59.053 --> 0:18:04.973 of time in Melbourne, and I remember them as a 0:18:05.053 --> 0:18:10.573 young kid. I remember both him and both both Granddad 0:18:10.573 --> 0:18:13.573 and or Mama and Papa as we call them, going 0:18:13.613 --> 0:18:19.813 off to lunch with with mensies on on one occasion, 0:18:19.813 --> 0:18:21.373 and I think there was I think there was more 0:18:21.413 --> 0:18:25.733 than one. What this might be an unfair question for you, 0:18:25.853 --> 0:18:30.613 but how would you describe Preston today? 0:18:30.733 --> 0:18:32.013 I can't even place Preston. 0:18:32.053 --> 0:18:35.773 I must I must have been well, I had just 0:18:35.853 --> 0:18:41.773 had had due north from Leigon Street and and you'll 0:18:41.773 --> 0:18:42.413 get to Preston. 0:18:42.533 --> 0:18:42.773 Well. 0:18:44.413 --> 0:18:47.093 This is extending this part of the conversation too long, 0:18:47.133 --> 0:18:51.373 I know. But we we went to Melbourne and did 0:18:51.373 --> 0:18:55.133 a tour with with a cousin of mine a few 0:18:55.213 --> 0:18:58.853 years ago and we went to Preston. I was born 0:18:58.893 --> 0:19:03.733 in Preston Hospital and we went and looked at the 0:19:03.733 --> 0:19:10.653 building in High Street, Preston where he ran a real 0:19:10.733 --> 0:19:15.693 estate business, and out the back there was a sort 0:19:15.733 --> 0:19:19.613 of a shack arrangement and that was my first home. 0:19:20.293 --> 0:19:22.613 And we went and looked through the through the hole 0:19:22.933 --> 0:19:25.573 in the back gate and it's still there. 0:19:26.373 --> 0:19:27.453 It was amazing. 0:19:28.453 --> 0:19:32.413 But what disturbed me the most was that the town hall, 0:19:33.173 --> 0:19:34.733 and I think I'm right in saying the town hall 0:19:35.373 --> 0:19:37.653 where my mother had her twenty first birthday was now 0:19:37.653 --> 0:19:38.253 a mosque. 0:19:39.773 --> 0:19:43.093 Yes, yes, no, I've called it up on Google Maps. 0:19:43.133 --> 0:19:45.813 I can see exactly what you mean. Yes, that doesn't 0:19:45.813 --> 0:19:49.373 surprise me. That would be that kind of territory. It's 0:19:50.133 --> 0:19:53.333 just north of the sort of inner city bubble, which 0:19:53.333 --> 0:19:56.413 is where the greenshold sway with the seat of Melbourne, 0:19:56.413 --> 0:19:58.933 which has been a Green seat for I think since 0:19:58.973 --> 0:20:03.173 twenty ten from memory. So yeah, you get into that 0:20:03.293 --> 0:20:07.373 territory where it becomes much more mixed. You get these 0:20:07.573 --> 0:20:14.973 large pockets of Islamic community and other ethnic groups, and 0:20:15.093 --> 0:20:17.773 then you also get the sort of working poor. You're 0:20:17.773 --> 0:20:20.613 in working poor territory. I would imagine that up there, 0:20:20.693 --> 0:20:25.253 because it's where people, you know, have maybe two jobs, 0:20:25.293 --> 0:20:27.533 the wife works and they've got a few kids. And 0:20:27.573 --> 0:20:31.093 they were but they're not getting ahead. In fact, they're 0:20:31.093 --> 0:20:33.973 getting back. They're going backwards at the moment, particularly because 0:20:33.973 --> 0:20:37.853 of inflation and mortgage rate rises. So yeah, those places 0:20:37.853 --> 0:20:41.653 are quite different. And I've visited similar places in Sydney 0:20:41.693 --> 0:20:45.973 recently during the election campaign and you go, is this 0:20:46.053 --> 0:20:49.213 for real? Like how could people live one way here 0:20:49.253 --> 0:20:52.493 and in a completely different way when you get into Sydney. Yeah, 0:20:52.693 --> 0:20:55.773 it's striking. 0:20:54.573 --> 0:21:00.053 And in many cases disturbing. Now, now let's get down 0:21:00.093 --> 0:21:02.813 the basics. What are the main issues in this election? 0:21:05.053 --> 0:21:09.213 Well, I don't I don't know that they're Well, the 0:21:09.293 --> 0:21:12.293 main issue is cost of living, and the second main 0:21:12.333 --> 0:21:14.413 issue is cost of living, and the third is cost 0:21:14.413 --> 0:21:16.613 of living, and then you get a whole lot of 0:21:16.653 --> 0:21:19.693 things related to that, like the price of energy because 0:21:19.813 --> 0:21:24.253 energy has gone up an enormous amount. You have to 0:21:24.293 --> 0:21:26.493 go a long way down people's list before you get 0:21:26.493 --> 0:21:30.213 the climate change. Even actually, interestingly in the till seats 0:21:30.253 --> 0:21:33.173 these days, they've moved on to other things, so that 0:21:33.333 --> 0:21:38.093 is overwhelmingly the big issue, and both parties have been 0:21:38.133 --> 0:21:42.133 trying to address this in various ways, neither of them 0:21:42.173 --> 0:21:44.213 in really adequate ways, I must say. I mean, the 0:21:44.293 --> 0:21:48.213 Labor Party solution to high energy prices is to subsidize them, 0:21:48.773 --> 0:21:50.773 so you still pay for them. You just pay for 0:21:50.813 --> 0:21:54.093 them in your taxes, I guess, or your children end 0:21:54.173 --> 0:21:57.133 up paying for them by paying off your debt. So 0:21:58.173 --> 0:22:02.893 it's very poor policy. And with housing prices, well, you 0:22:02.933 --> 0:22:05.453 know that both parties have really come out with ways 0:22:06.093 --> 0:22:08.733 to try to ease the pathway for peace to get 0:22:08.773 --> 0:22:13.493 into housing by the first time ever under if you 0:22:13.613 --> 0:22:16.733 get a coalition government under Peter Dunton, they will make 0:22:18.053 --> 0:22:22.293 your interest rate payments on more is tax deductible for 0:22:22.373 --> 0:22:23.213 certain people. 0:22:23.453 --> 0:22:27.373 Certain I think that was a clever strike. 0:22:28.413 --> 0:22:31.613 Oh, it's very clever strike. I haven't looked at how 0:22:31.653 --> 0:22:33.573 they're going to manage that fiscally, how they're going to 0:22:33.573 --> 0:22:37.653 pay for it, but I think it's it's great. I mean, 0:22:37.693 --> 0:22:40.733 you certainly, going back to Mensis, you certainly need right 0:22:40.813 --> 0:22:45.533 now some way of altering things so that people can 0:22:45.573 --> 0:22:49.373 get into the housing market, because you know, Mensis changed 0:22:49.413 --> 0:22:52.253 homage and ownership from about fifty percent to seventy percent 0:22:52.293 --> 0:22:54.653 of the country. You know, it's now going backwards to 0:22:54.933 --> 0:22:58.933 about sixty five or sixty six. So that's a bad thing. 0:22:59.013 --> 0:23:00.893 It's a bad thing for people, and it's a bad 0:23:00.933 --> 0:23:02.653 thing for the country, and it's a very bad thing 0:23:02.693 --> 0:23:04.773 for the Liberal Party because they are a party of 0:23:04.813 --> 0:23:08.653 homeowners and they do very well amongst people who own 0:23:08.693 --> 0:23:10.573 their own homes, are buying their own homes. They do 0:23:10.693 --> 0:23:14.573 less well from renters. So you know, in every respect 0:23:14.973 --> 0:23:17.293 that's a that's a key policy and a key part 0:23:17.293 --> 0:23:20.693 of the house of living, cost of living equation, and 0:23:21.573 --> 0:23:23.773 so yeah, it's the cost of living. Even for the 0:23:23.773 --> 0:23:28.093 Greens Party incidentally, which you used to be the party 0:23:28.133 --> 0:23:32.613 that campaigned on saving the planet and climate change. Not 0:23:32.933 --> 0:23:35.333