1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,760
Speaker 1: The Heads with the John and Ben Podcast.

2
00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,280
Speaker 2: Cheers to Dilma making the world a better TEA guest

3
00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:06,600
Speaker 2: on the.

4
00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:12,479
Speaker 3: Phone, Nadia Maxwell is a documentary maker, someone who's probably

5
00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:14,600
Speaker 3: far too educated to appear on our show, but thank

6
00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,000
Speaker 3: you for joining us, Nadia.

7
00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:16,959
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

8
00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,880
Speaker 1: Just to give the backstory, you're as John I said,

9
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,520
Speaker 1: you're a documentary maker, and you set up some pages

10
00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,360
Speaker 1: on social media sites basically said you were a thirteen

11
00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:25,960
Speaker 1: year old girl.

12
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, we're prompted. I gave my interests

13
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,120
Speaker 2: in things like animal's health and fitness, you know, tayus Worth,

14
00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,960
Speaker 2: things that my own kind of teenage girls are interested in.

15
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,160
Speaker 2: I thought it might, you know, maybe take a week

16
00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,720
Speaker 2: or so for disturbing content to crop up. It took

17
00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,360
Speaker 2: tiktop twenty two minutes and fifteen seconds for the first

18
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,760
Speaker 2: kind of really heavy traumatic content to be pushed my way.

19
00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,760
Speaker 2: And so then I'd yeah, and then I'd go and

20
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,040
Speaker 2: try to redirect the algorithm. I'd put a nipball and

21
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,680
Speaker 2: I'd watch, you know, five videos about nipball, and then

22
00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:57,760
Speaker 2: I'd go back to the for you feed and just

23
00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,760
Speaker 2: over kind of a three day period, say, take something

24
00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 2: like kittens. I think on the first day it was

25
00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,760
Speaker 2: sort of twelve percent kittens, and on the next day

26
00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:06,960
Speaker 2: it was three percent kittens, and on the last day

27
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,720
Speaker 2: there were no kiddens, you know, at all, whereas disturbing

28
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,000
Speaker 2: content rose, so that by day three, sixty five percent

29
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 2: of what was waiting for me in the full U feed,

30
00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 2: you know, despite trying to redirect algorithm that was really

31
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:20,319
Speaker 2: really flow on heavy content.

32
00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 3: Is there not any responsibility from techtic or the social

33
00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:25,240
Speaker 3: media companies?

34
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:27,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you would think so, right. And someone

35
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,440
Speaker 2: recently said to me after I did this experiment, and

36
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,679
Speaker 2: you can actually hold on a video and you know,

37
00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 2: an option will come up to say you're not interested.

38
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 2: And I thought, all, that's interesting. So I tried that

39
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,080
Speaker 2: this morning. I put a mental health into the search

40
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:40,800
Speaker 2: speed so that I knew it would start sending me

41
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,959
Speaker 2: again traumatic kind of content. And then when that content

42
00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,400
Speaker 2: came up, I held on it and I said not interested.

43
00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 2: And then about secting videos later, it showed me another clip,

44
00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,400
Speaker 2: so again I said not interested, and then again another

45
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,120
Speaker 2: minute later. More so it's like, you know, they're saying,

46
00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,480
Speaker 2: we've got filters and we've got things that you can use,

47
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,800
Speaker 2: but actually when you try to use them, and I

48
00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,480
Speaker 2: went online and just kind of read on online communities,

49
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,280
Speaker 2: are other people finding this feature work? And everyone's just

50
00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,519
Speaker 2: like no when I say, I'm not interested, why is tiktokan?

51
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is really refascinating because, as you also said

52
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,239
Speaker 1: in there and the article I was reading as well,

53
00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,359
Speaker 1: you know, it's a lot for young brains to process

54
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,840
Speaker 1: on TikTok because you're not really expecting some of the

55
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,320
Speaker 1: stuff you're going from, like a lip sync video or funny,

56
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,040
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden something quiet falon comes

57
00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:25,880
Speaker 1: up and then yeah, it's a lot for adults to

58
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:26,760
Speaker 1: even get the hit around.

59
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,519
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's emotionally confusing. You know, you see

60
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,560
Speaker 2: something really heavy and then suddenly, like you say, it's

61
00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,680
Speaker 2: a lip sync video, So there's no time to mentally

62
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,360
Speaker 2: processe what you what you've seen. And this is me

63
00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,480
Speaker 2: coming you know at it as an adult, I've got

64
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,840
Speaker 2: like a whole lifetime I've experienced to draw on. I

65
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,680
Speaker 2: know that I can, you know, shut it down and

66
00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,359
Speaker 2: go for a walk in the park and make myself

67
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 2: feel better. But I think it's just so much to

68
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,080
Speaker 2: put on to young kids, and we know you know,

69
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 2: theoretically the legal ages do things, but we all know

70
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,360
Speaker 2: so many kids that are on the platform for around

71
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,960
Speaker 2: you know, age ten or eleven, and it's it's really frightening.

72
00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,280
Speaker 2: You know, So what does it do to empathy if

73
00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,880
Speaker 2: you're not actually your kind of brain's been trained not

74
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,160
Speaker 2: to have time to reflect and have interfere around what

75
00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:06,000
Speaker 2: you're seeing.

76
00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 1: Social media companies, you know, as you say it's age

77
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,200
Speaker 1: thirteen for TikTok, they've got pretty clear guidelines and they

78
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:12,880
Speaker 1: say they remove a lot of the videos, but it

79
00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,160
Speaker 1: sounds like there's a lot of it's still coming your way.

80
00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,480
Speaker 2: No, and like you don't even have to put in

81
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,560
Speaker 2: the last name to sign up to these platforms. You

82
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,720
Speaker 2: put in one your first name, and you make up

83
00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,239
Speaker 2: an age and you're in. Like it's far too easy,

84
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,400
Speaker 2: and obviously across the ditch in Australia, you know, it's

85
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,320
Speaker 2: really encouraging to see that you know, their government are

86
00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 2: going to bring in and it remains to be seeing

87
00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,520
Speaker 2: how it actually looks, but you know that they're raising

88
00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 2: the legal age to sixteen, and I feel like that's

89
00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,160
Speaker 2: what we need to do here in New Zealand because

90
00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,280
Speaker 2: it's not for you to put it on Definitely not

91
00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,080
Speaker 2: for you to put on kids to monitor what they're doing.

92
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:43,800
Speaker 2: And it's also not fair to put it on us

93
00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,480
Speaker 2: as parents. Kids have got a porcela in your pocket

94
00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,640
Speaker 2: to the digital world, and if you beside them every

95
00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,560
Speaker 2: minute of the day, you can't reasonably be expected to

96
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:52,200
Speaker 2: protect them.

97
00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:52,920
Speaker 1: Do you think that.

98
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 2: Age limit will actually be effective? Yeah, well, there's a

99
00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,480
Speaker 2: great researcher in New Zealand doctor smet to marsh and

100
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,760
Speaker 2: she says, look, probably not going to be one hundred

101
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,320
Speaker 2: percent effective, but you know, doesn't mean we still shouldn't try,

102
00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:07,120
Speaker 2: you know, like it might be per.

103
00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,200
Speaker 3: Well, I guess too if it does become law, and

104
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,480
Speaker 3: not that you need to be weak in your parenting,

105
00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,400
Speaker 3: but I think if you're like, oh, my mate to me,

106
00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,520
Speaker 3: he's on Instagram, he's allowed to do it. But then

107
00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,440
Speaker 3: if it's a law that gives appearance something to reference

108
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:21,360
Speaker 3: to go, hey, this is law.

109
00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right. This made the government dead cops,

110
00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:24,560
Speaker 2: not all us.

111
00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 3: As parents, right while even as adults, I think you

112
00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,600
Speaker 3: said it earlier, we can't even go Sometimes I pull

113
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,880
Speaker 3: myself out of a whole thirty twenty five minutes just

114
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,479
Speaker 3: scrolling looking at camp videos.

115
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,560
Speaker 1: And things best than the worst of humanity, all in

116
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,280
Speaker 1: a quick scroll. Is that sometimes well Nadia makes a

117
00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,680
Speaker 1: really really fascinating your research out of christ Church. Thank

118
00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 1: you so much for your time in your conversation this morning.