Speaker 1: Cura. I'm Susie Nordquist and for Chelsea Daniels and this
Speaker 1: is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by The
Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. Public Servants or what's left of them,
Speaker 1: have been ordered back to the office in Wellington. The
Speaker 1: government's call has been welcomed by central city businesses, who
Speaker 1: say the absence of workers has impacted on their trade.
Speaker 1: The decline of the city center is one of a
Speaker 1: number of issues the capital is facing, including soaring costs
Speaker 1: from rates and struggling council finances. Wellington mea Tori Farno
Speaker 1: has not helped things after a week of conflicting statements
Speaker 1: on selling her car that has caused a distraction. To
Speaker 1: discuss the state of Wellington and its council today on
Speaker 1: the front Page, we are joined by Newstalk ZB Wellington
Speaker 1: host Nick Mills and Wellington editor for the spin off,
Speaker 1: Joel McManus. Let's start with you, Nick. You own several
Speaker 1: hospitality businesses in Wellington. Have you noticed a decline in
Speaker 1: foot traffic and sales? And over what period?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I didn't think it was a comedy show.
Speaker 3: Prea COVID we had nine hospitality Outfits as a family business.
Speaker 3: Currently we're one, two, three, four and hoping to open
Speaker 3: another one soon. So yeah, no, it's been It's not
Speaker 3: even the same world that we live in.
Speaker 1: Nick. What's it like being in business in Wellington at
Speaker 1: the moment? For those who might be listening right now, it's.
Speaker 3: Been a really horrific time. And I'm not blaming Torri
Speaker 3: Faro for all of it, of course I'm not. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm blaming the world. We got COVID, that was the
Speaker 3: first thing that stuffed it, and then we've got police
Speaker 3: that are over zealous and trying to limit late licenses
Speaker 3: and they're trying to do everything they can to stop
Speaker 3: everyone from having a good time. You've got the health
Speaker 3: boards that are actually objecting to licenses and getting into
Speaker 3: businesses that they know nothing about and ruining people's lives.
Speaker 3: So we've got a lot going on in Wellington and
Speaker 3: in New Zealand, and we've got to fight through it
Speaker 3: or lie down and get Bulldeauz a day.
Speaker 1: What about you, Joel, I've read commentary describing Wellington as
Speaker 1: a ghost town on Mondays and Fridays? Is that how
Speaker 1: you see things?
Speaker 4: I mean, Neck's absolutely right, Like Wellington's face just a
Speaker 4: kind of horrendous series of events. One that's not talked
Speaker 4: about enough is the twenty sixteen earthquake, which is just
Speaker 4: kind of in the slow rolling disaster.
Speaker 5: More and more buildings shutting down, you know.
Speaker 4: Obviously, COVID recession, public sector layoffs, there's just less economic
Speaker 4: activity happening in the capitol. I think some of the
Speaker 4: commentary is a bit overblown, to be honest, and I
Speaker 4: think some of it comes from people who have a
Speaker 4: certain incentive to talk Wellington down. I was out on
Speaker 4: Saturday when the sun was out, and there's all these
Speaker 4: beautiful new parklets along Dixon Street and.
Speaker 5: It was heaving with people.
Speaker 4: So I think a lot of people are kind of
Speaker 4: just holding on for summer hope, hoping that things will
Speaker 4: turn around.
Speaker 5: People want to get out there and do some more.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean there's no denying obviously that the
Speaker 4: city's in a tough spot like many cities.
Speaker 3: Joel, can you do be a favor Next time you
Speaker 3: see anybody in a parklet, can you take a photo
Speaker 3: of it and send it to me? Because you know
Speaker 3: I'm in the trade and I'm in the business, and yes,
Speaker 3: it might might have a few people in a parklant
Speaker 3: on a beautiful day when there's no wind. But they
Speaker 3: write songs about Wellington on those days they don't happen
Speaker 3: that often, so I think the parklets are a complete
Speaker 3: waste of time. And I used to own a bar
Speaker 3: called The Tasting Room which had the biggest parklet in
Speaker 3: Wellington on it, and I always used to look at
Speaker 3: it frustratingly, saying it's peeing down with rain and customers
Speaker 3: a driving pass and they can't park in the car
Speaker 3: parks because I've got tables and chairs out there with
Speaker 3: no one's sitting in them.
Speaker 5: I think you're being a bit delusional, Nick.
Speaker 4: You've just got a whole bunch of extra tables and
Speaker 4: seats that I see a lot of people in all
Speaker 4: the time. That surely is a lot cheaper than that
Speaker 4: bit you paying rent for that facility, and what the.
Speaker 5: Trade off is?
Speaker 2: Do you know how much two car parks?
Speaker 4: Do you know any thirty extra seats? What are you
Speaker 4: talking about, Joel?
Speaker 2: Do you know how much those places pay for those
Speaker 2: park lips?
Speaker 5: Do you know that?
Speaker 4: I do?
Speaker 3: I can find the number like you give us the number,
Speaker 3: and can I said to you, I asked you nicely,
Speaker 3: could you take a photo when you see people in there?
Speaker 3: Because I don't see people in them, and I am
Speaker 3: a professional who works in the trade and is on
Speaker 3: the streets every Friday and Saturdays and sometimes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't really know how to have this
Speaker 4: debate when sort of just kind of it's very clear
Speaker 4: that people use the parklets like I have eyes. Sure
Speaker 4: I can take some photos. I just think this is
Speaker 4: a dumb thing to argue about, because this is just reality.
Speaker 1: Okay, you've clearly got two very different views there, Joe,
Speaker 1: who would have an incentive to talk Wellington down?
Speaker 4: Look, I mean, I think there's people obviously who don't
Speaker 4: like some of the current council. You know, there's people
Speaker 4: who don't like what the city represents politically and the
Speaker 4: kind of people who work in this city. You know,
Speaker 4: you actually see the same narrative in the US. You know,
Speaker 4: the likes of Fox News like to talk down cities
Speaker 4: that are known for being lefty, progressive cities San Francisco, Chicago,
Speaker 4: that sort of thing.
Speaker 5: I'm just a bit bored of it.
Speaker 4: So people with different political views sometimes.
Speaker 1: What was introduced as a temporary measure during COVID four
Speaker 1: years ago, is risks putting pressure on team performance, office culture,
Speaker 1: and talent development.
Speaker 6: And while some swear by the benefits of working from
Speaker 6: their kitchen table, others admit that routinely leaving the house
Speaker 6: for work increases their motivation, focus, and productivity. There are
Speaker 6: good reasons why office workers have traditionally been physically brought
Speaker 6: together for work.
Speaker 1: Moving on, what do you both make of the call
Speaker 1: to order public servants back into the office. The government's
Speaker 1: looking at this from a productivity point of view, But
Speaker 1: is it the right move for the local economy.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think in the short term it's going
Speaker 4: to be a boost, so I think it's kind of undeniable.
Speaker 4: Having more people in the city and the office is
Speaker 4: going to mean sales and cafes and after work drinks.
Speaker 5: But I kind of don't think a required.
Speaker 4: Captured, captured market is a particularly good way to build
Speaker 4: the economic base of a city. I think the answer
Speaker 4: is going to have to be make the city a
Speaker 4: better place to be, make it pleasant for customers to
Speaker 4: go out, walk the streets, visit bars, make it more walkable,
Speaker 4: and you know, just do the things that make businesses
Speaker 4: and people want to be there. I just don't think
Speaker 4: like requiring this stuff is the answer in the long term.
Speaker 1: How do you make it more attractive then.
Speaker 4: Things like parklets obviously, pedestrianization, widening the footpaths one thing
Speaker 4: I'd really like to see some investments. There's a lot
Speaker 4: more lighting on awnings. You know, along Courtney Place in
Speaker 4: Cuba Street, there's these random dark patches and there's little
Speaker 4: things like that in terms of urban design that make
Speaker 4: a big difference just in terms of it feeling safer
Speaker 4: and more pleasant for people to go out and and
Speaker 4: you know, like you might not think that's a big deal,
Speaker 4: but you know, it just just plays on people's minds
Speaker 4: a lot.
Speaker 5: And it's spend.
Speaker 4: It comes down to how long they want to spend out,
Speaker 4: how much money they want to spend, how much they
Speaker 4: want to go out and enjoy the city. Now.
Speaker 3: See, I love the idea Suzie of the awnings in
Speaker 3: front of bars and restaurants. And we've got a little
Speaker 3: tiny Mexican restaurant that we've asked the council three or
Speaker 3: four times if we can put a nice little warning.
Speaker 3: We've got a tiny little outside area we wanted to
Speaker 3: put an awning over. Yeah, the answer is yes, but
Speaker 3: you know what it's going to cost us. We've got
Speaker 3: to apply for a license for the awning. Then we
Speaker 3: have to pay a rental of nearly four thousand dollars
Speaker 3: a year to have a little awning.
Speaker 2: That looks after two tables.
Speaker 3: So if you want to have a beautiful city, and
Speaker 3: I agree with a lot of what Joel's saying about
Speaker 3: making the city better, he's got no argument from me
Speaker 3: on that. But the end of the day, those parklands.
Speaker 3: If I wanted to put a park in front of
Speaker 3: my little Mexican restaurant, that'll cost me about seven or
Speaker 3: eight grand a year. Put the warning on. That's another
Speaker 3: four ground. This is all money going to the council.
Speaker 3: I think I'd rather pay my landlords some money to
Speaker 3: have it inside and be able to use it all
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 1: So are you an affect saying that too much red
Speaker 1: tape is sort of threatening the vine ability of businesses
Speaker 1: in Wellington right now?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And but that's not a new problem. Let's not
Speaker 3: say that this, let's not point that to to the
Speaker 3: current council. That's been forever, but it does. It's always
Speaker 3: been a city that's been difficult to get anything to
Speaker 3: move or change. I mean, as soon as the part
Speaker 3: the Seventh Party became too big, you know, the police
Speaker 3: and the council said, oh we better stop doing that.
Speaker 3: As soon as the motor car racing which was huge
Speaker 3: in Wellington and New Zealand, as soon as that got
Speaker 3: too big, oh let's get rid of that where you know,
Speaker 3: wow will be the next thing we lose. It's just
Speaker 3: we are in a city that does not want to
Speaker 3: make make the big decisions and have the big parties.
Speaker 5: I mean I actually agree with Nick a lot there.
Speaker 4: You know, there's not much that a council for example,
Speaker 4: can do to change like the underlying economic conditions. But
Speaker 4: one thing that you know could be done is is
Speaker 4: kind of removing that red tape making it easier to
Speaker 4: get food and drink licenses, some kind of stimulus not
Speaker 4: stimulus package, but you know, some kind of subsidy to
Speaker 4: get more awnings or to get more lighting onto the street.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't have a particular solution, but what
Speaker 4: can we do to encourage landlords and business owners just
Speaker 4: to put some more lights up around their buildings. Yeah,
Speaker 4: that's the kind of stuff that can be done fairly cheaply,
Speaker 4: I mean parklets. You know it's a one off application
Speaker 4: fee of one hundred and ninety seven dollars and an
Speaker 4: annual renewal fee of ninety nine dollars. I'm sure it
Speaker 4: would cost you a lot more to rent that much
Speaker 4: space if it was inside a building.
Speaker 5: This is just fun.
Speaker 3: I don't know where you got those figures from, because
Speaker 3: I'm reading it on the post right now. Well I
Speaker 3: made an application for one of my businesses for those part.
Speaker 3: It's a lot more than ninety nine dollars. Oh my god,
Speaker 3: you know how much it cost just to put the
Speaker 3: five or six tables outside Hummingbird, well established, well respected
Speaker 3: dining areas.
Speaker 2: It cost a hell of a lot more than that.
Speaker 2: You've got those figures wrong. Sorry.
Speaker 1: It's clearly a tough time for businesses in Wellington right now,
Speaker 1: and the Public Service Association has come out and blamed
Speaker 1: the government's public service cuts for the lack of people
Speaker 1: coming to work. Is that a fair statement?
Speaker 3: No, I don't believe so. I think that it's had
Speaker 3: some effect. Of course, it's had some effect if you
Speaker 3: lose five thousand people. And you know, I tell the
Speaker 3: story all the time I walked outside to one of
Speaker 3: my restaurant, one of the little places the other month now,
Speaker 3: a couple of months ago, and this forty year old couple,
Speaker 3: you know, like mid late thirties, early forties, couple, lovely couple,
Speaker 3: about to go in the restaurant. And as I was
Speaker 3: walking out and they recognized me and said hello, I
Speaker 3: didn't know who they were anyway, but anyway, long story short,
Speaker 3: they said, we feel embarrassed going out for dinner. And
Speaker 3: I thought they were talking about going into one, you know,
Speaker 3: to my restaurant, and they were actually saying that they
Speaker 3: felt embarrassed that they were going out for dinner because
Speaker 3: some of their colleagues had lost their job. So there's
Speaker 3: a whole snowballing effect and the scare the fright. You know,
Speaker 3: if you're sitting next to someone and they've just lost
Speaker 3: their job, what does that do to you?
Speaker 2: That makes you think? Wow? And when are my next?
Speaker 2: Or could I be next?
Speaker 5: Gee?
Speaker 3: They were good at their job and I might lose
Speaker 3: my job. There's a whole fear thing in the city,
Speaker 3: and we've got to get over it. The city is beautiful.
Speaker 3: This is the best city in the country, no question.
Speaker 3: I just walked around the block before looking at it.
Speaker 3: It's a beautiful city and it's been a funky city.
Speaker 3: We had, you know, we were the coffee city of
Speaker 3: New Zealand. We know we had the movies that you know,
Speaker 3: we were it and now we're not.
Speaker 1: Okay, you say we have to get over it. What
Speaker 1: other options are there to help Wellington's economy?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, if you're asking me, I say, this
Speaker 3: is where Tory could help us. I think Tory is
Speaker 3: really stuck in the weeds. I reckon that she's surrounded
Speaker 3: round by people that are telling her how good she is,
Speaker 3: how her dress what do I call it?
Speaker 2: The Empress new clothes.
Speaker 3: She looks amazing, she's fantastic, and she's great, and she's
Speaker 3: doing a great time. And by god, you're changing. You're
Speaker 3: going to change Wellington forever. Right now, we need to survive.
Speaker 3: We don't need to change. You know, we don't need
Speaker 3: this massive golden mile. We don't need it. We need
Speaker 3: to get what we've got back on track. We need
Speaker 3: to get moving and then do all the big stuff.
Speaker 3: And I think that that's where the problem. If you
Speaker 3: want to mention Tory far, that's where the problem. She's
Speaker 3: been surrounded with people that aren't giving you the right advice.
Speaker 1: Nick. On top of the city's financial issues, there's also
Speaker 1: toy Fano. You interviewed her last week, she revealed she'd
Speaker 1: sold her car.
Speaker 2: Do you actually feel what we as well Antonians are
Speaker 2: feeling right now?
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Look, I don't want to downplay the privilege that I have,
Speaker 7: right so, I am the mayor of the city. I
Speaker 7: have a house, and I'm very thankful for that. However,
Speaker 7: I've just sold my car recently to kind of.
Speaker 2: Help pay the bills.
Speaker 4: A lot of people look at them, were like, oh,
Speaker 4: to Fano is one hundred and ninety grand.
Speaker 5: Does she really need to sell her card?
Speaker 4: I mean, did you need to actually sell a card
Speaker 4: to pay the bills?
Speaker 7: No, I actually didn't. It's a shame because it was
Speaker 7: taken out of context. It was an hour long interview.
Speaker 7: You get a bit relaxed, I mean, the main as
Speaker 7: it actually was because it's a walkable city. I don't
Speaker 7: need a car living in the city center, so you know,
Speaker 7: so why did you say otherwise? I? Well, no, what
Speaker 7: I said was, yes, I've sold my car and made
Speaker 7: some comments. What I do think is that it's been
Speaker 7: completely blown out of proportion.
Speaker 1: What was your reaction to that statement initially and then
Speaker 1: her changing her story after that.
Speaker 3: Well, for someone that's myself personally sold three cars in
Speaker 3: the last two years, I understand selling cars.
Speaker 2: So and my reasons probably were.
Speaker 3: Exactly the reason that Tory told us her reasons why
Speaker 3: I needed some cash so I sold a car. This
Speaker 3: is where the whole thing's got really out of hilter
Speaker 3: for me. I just said to her, and I'm doing
Speaker 3: it tough, and I am doing it tough. So I
Speaker 3: admit to that, right. Business is tough, and I'm doing
Speaker 3: it tough, and I'm trying to get through these hard
Speaker 3: times at hospitalities suffering.
Speaker 2: So I said, do you really understand how tough it is?
Speaker 3: That's what I said to it, like just exactly the
Speaker 3: same for Baita what I said, And she said, of course,
Speaker 3: I understand. My mortgage is doubled. My you know I
Speaker 3: have to sell my car. I know how hard it is, Nick,
Speaker 3: And she looked me straight in the eyes, so I
Speaker 3: just took it. Yeah, we're all on the same boat.
Speaker 3: And just because she earns one hundred and ninety thousand
Speaker 3: dollars a year doesn't mean that she might not be
Speaker 3: doing it tough. You know, she might have the house
Speaker 3: on one hundred percent mortgage, she might have other debts
Speaker 3: she might have, you know, and I'm not getting into
Speaker 3: that that's her problem. But I definitely believed when she
Speaker 3: looked me in the eye and said, I know what
Speaker 3: tough times are like.
Speaker 2: You know how I believed her.
Speaker 1: Joel, you said that Farno has the political radar of
Speaker 1: the ter teddy. Just how bad are things looking for
Speaker 1: her at the moment one year out from the potential
Speaker 1: re election campaign, and some of these issues were spoken
Speaker 1: about a bit of a nail in the coffin for
Speaker 1: that campaign.
Speaker 4: I think it's getting close to it. I mean that
Speaker 4: interview with Nick and then the follow up interview with
Speaker 4: Jack Team was just a bit of a rolling disaster.
Speaker 5: Really.
Speaker 4: You know, the Tori Fino just keeps putting her foot
Speaker 4: on it when she doesn't need to. Whether she sold
Speaker 4: her car or not, which you know, it sounds like
Speaker 4: she did. The reason why she sold it that was
Speaker 4: up to it.
Speaker 5: When you're a.
Speaker 4: Politician earning one hundred and ninety K and you have
Speaker 4: won lotto in the past, no one wants to hear
Speaker 4: about you pretending like you have a normal financial struggle
Speaker 4: and you know same for when you're a business owner
Speaker 4: who owns five bars. People don't want to hear that.
Speaker 4: Why don't want to so why would you even bring that?
Speaker 4: Was that was the miss because as a politician it
Speaker 4: just makes you look out of touch and you can't
Speaker 4: relate to the ordinary financial financial circumstances of ordinary people.
Speaker 4: It was poor political management and that's what she's had
Speaker 4: a tendency to do, say things that get her in
Speaker 4: trouble for no particular reason, and make some decisions around
Speaker 4: the council table that seem to have very little political
Speaker 4: upside and quite a lot of downside.
Speaker 1: Really, the last two Wellington mayors only served one term.
Speaker 1: Do you think Fanno will last past one term?
Speaker 4: I think I think she's going to struggle in the
Speaker 4: re election. It will come down to who else is
Speaker 4: in the race right now. The only other candidate is
Speaker 4: Ray Hung, who I don't think is a particularly strong candidate.
Speaker 5: But I'm sure that more people will emerge.
Speaker 4: The biggest achievements that she can point to from this
Speaker 4: council term is the district Plan which has allowed a
Speaker 4: lot more housing and the continued cycleway roll out, but
Speaker 4: neither of those are actually her projects. It was just
Speaker 4: a continuation under her leadership. So I think she's just
Speaker 4: going to struggle to identify what she can point to
Speaker 4: that she's done and how Yeah, just like, what is
Speaker 4: the what is the call to those Green or labor
Speaker 4: aligned voters who might want to vote for her but
Speaker 4: are kind of struggling to get over the line.
Speaker 2: I think that she's the front runner to win the
Speaker 2: next election. Now.
Speaker 3: I know that's going to ruffle a few feathers. I
Speaker 3: don't think there's anyone that's you need to be an
Speaker 3: ex all black or a very respected Wellington businessman to
Speaker 3: put your businesswoman or businessman, preferably a business woman that
Speaker 3: puts your name forward to win it. I think she's
Speaker 3: hot favorite to win it again. I don't think she
Speaker 3: needs to do anything apart from keep connected to the
Speaker 3: Green Party to win.
Speaker 2: But the one thing that will be a downer for
Speaker 2: her if.
Speaker 3: She expects everybody to use as a cycle way to
Speaker 3: vote for her, then she won't get in because not
Speaker 3: too many people use him.
Speaker 1: If the two of you could make your way onto
Speaker 1: council next year, what would you like to see Wellington
Speaker 1: do to turn its fortunes around.
Speaker 2: Starting with you, Nick, I would green light it.
Speaker 3: I've got a little tattoo on my risk under my
Speaker 3: watch that says green light. So I would be like
Speaker 3: Joel said, and I would just make everything so much
Speaker 3: easier to do. I've become the yes city of New Zealand. Again,
Speaker 3: we want to do If Peter Jackson knocks on my
Speaker 3: door and he wants to do a movie, yes, where
Speaker 3: do you want to do it? If the Racing Carnival
Speaker 3: want to do a big racing meeting, Yes, where do
Speaker 3: you want to do it? I would become the most
Speaker 3: yes city in the country. And to go along with
Speaker 3: the beauty of the country, that's all we need to do.
Speaker 3: We just need to turn from a no naysay to
Speaker 3: a yes, yes, yes, please, thank you, let's get on
Speaker 3: with it.
Speaker 4: And what about you, Joel, I'm actually pretty much the
Speaker 4: same answer. I think the Courtney Precinct project, which was
Speaker 4: started by a bunch of bar owners, is one of
Speaker 4: the most promising things we've seen. I think this could
Speaker 4: be a potential opportunity to have some sort of different
Speaker 4: by law covering that area. Yeah, just to say yes
Speaker 4: to make it easier and easier and easier to get
Speaker 4: food trucks out on the street, to have bars open late,
Speaker 4: to make it easier to get licenses.
Speaker 5: This is what they did with the district plan, and
Speaker 5: that's why that's so promising.
Speaker 4: They went from an incredibly restrictive set of housing rules
Speaker 4: to an incredibly commissive one. Is it's now, you know,
Speaker 4: you know, we're not seeing too much development because interest
Speaker 4: rates are high, but it is. But we are seeing
Speaker 4: more and we're seeing developers come out of the woodwork
Speaker 4: and say, hey, I can build an apartment building here
Speaker 4: now that I would not have been able to otherwise.
Speaker 4: And we can just kind of take that lesson and
Speaker 4: apply it to everything.
Speaker 1: Nick and Joel, thanks for joining us that set for
Speaker 1: this episode of the Front Page. You can read more
Speaker 1: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at Inzet Herald
Speaker 1: dot co dot endzet. The Front Page is produced by
Speaker 1: Ethan Sells. Patty Fox is a sound engineer. I'm Susanne
Speaker 1: or Quist. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or
Speaker 1: where you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday
Speaker 1: for another look behind the headlines.