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Speaker 1: Cura. I'm Susie Nordquist and for Chelsea Daniels and this

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Speaker 1: is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by The

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Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. Public Servants or what's left of them,

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Speaker 1: have been ordered back to the office in Wellington. The

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Speaker 1: government's call has been welcomed by central city businesses, who

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Speaker 1: say the absence of workers has impacted on their trade.

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Speaker 1: The decline of the city center is one of a

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Speaker 1: number of issues the capital is facing, including soaring costs

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Speaker 1: from rates and struggling council finances. Wellington mea Tori Farno

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Speaker 1: has not helped things after a week of conflicting statements

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Speaker 1: on selling her car that has caused a distraction. To

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Speaker 1: discuss the state of Wellington and its council today on

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Speaker 1: the front Page, we are joined by Newstalk ZB Wellington

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Speaker 1: host Nick Mills and Wellington editor for the spin off,

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Speaker 1: Joel McManus. Let's start with you, Nick. You own several

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Speaker 1: hospitality businesses in Wellington. Have you noticed a decline in

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Speaker 1: foot traffic and sales? And over what period?

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I didn't think it was a comedy show.

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Speaker 3: Prea COVID we had nine hospitality Outfits as a family business.

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Speaker 3: Currently we're one, two, three, four and hoping to open

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Speaker 3: another one soon. So yeah, no, it's been It's not

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Speaker 3: even the same world that we live in.

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Speaker 1: Nick. What's it like being in business in Wellington at

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Speaker 1: the moment? For those who might be listening right now, it's.

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Speaker 3: Been a really horrific time. And I'm not blaming Torri

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Speaker 3: Faro for all of it, of course I'm not. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I'm blaming the world. We got COVID, that was the

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Speaker 3: first thing that stuffed it, and then we've got police

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Speaker 3: that are over zealous and trying to limit late licenses

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Speaker 3: and they're trying to do everything they can to stop

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Speaker 3: everyone from having a good time. You've got the health

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Speaker 3: boards that are actually objecting to licenses and getting into

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Speaker 3: businesses that they know nothing about and ruining people's lives.

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Speaker 3: So we've got a lot going on in Wellington and

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Speaker 3: in New Zealand, and we've got to fight through it

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Speaker 3: or lie down and get Bulldeauz a day.

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Speaker 1: What about you, Joel, I've read commentary describing Wellington as

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Speaker 1: a ghost town on Mondays and Fridays? Is that how

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Speaker 1: you see things?

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Speaker 4: I mean, Neck's absolutely right, Like Wellington's face just a

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Speaker 4: kind of horrendous series of events. One that's not talked

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Speaker 4: about enough is the twenty sixteen earthquake, which is just

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Speaker 4: kind of in the slow rolling disaster.

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Speaker 5: More and more buildings shutting down, you know.

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Speaker 4: Obviously, COVID recession, public sector layoffs, there's just less economic

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Speaker 4: activity happening in the capitol. I think some of the

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Speaker 4: commentary is a bit overblown, to be honest, and I

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Speaker 4: think some of it comes from people who have a

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Speaker 4: certain incentive to talk Wellington down. I was out on

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Speaker 4: Saturday when the sun was out, and there's all these

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Speaker 4: beautiful new parklets along Dixon Street and.

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Speaker 5: It was heaving with people.

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Speaker 4: So I think a lot of people are kind of

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Speaker 4: just holding on for summer hope, hoping that things will

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Speaker 4: turn around.

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Speaker 5: People want to get out there and do some more.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean there's no denying obviously that the

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Speaker 4: city's in a tough spot like many cities.

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Speaker 3: Joel, can you do be a favor Next time you

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Speaker 3: see anybody in a parklet, can you take a photo

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Speaker 3: of it and send it to me? Because you know

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Speaker 3: I'm in the trade and I'm in the business, and yes,

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Speaker 3: it might might have a few people in a parklant

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Speaker 3: on a beautiful day when there's no wind. But they

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Speaker 3: write songs about Wellington on those days they don't happen

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Speaker 3: that often, so I think the parklets are a complete

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Speaker 3: waste of time. And I used to own a bar

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Speaker 3: called The Tasting Room which had the biggest parklet in

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Speaker 3: Wellington on it, and I always used to look at

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Speaker 3: it frustratingly, saying it's peeing down with rain and customers

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Speaker 3: a driving pass and they can't park in the car

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Speaker 3: parks because I've got tables and chairs out there with

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Speaker 3: no one's sitting in them.

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Speaker 5: I think you're being a bit delusional, Nick.

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Speaker 4: You've just got a whole bunch of extra tables and

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Speaker 4: seats that I see a lot of people in all

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Speaker 4: the time. That surely is a lot cheaper than that

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Speaker 4: bit you paying rent for that facility, and what the.

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Speaker 5: Trade off is?

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Speaker 2: Do you know how much two car parks?

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Speaker 4: Do you know any thirty extra seats? What are you

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Speaker 4: talking about, Joel?

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Speaker 2: Do you know how much those places pay for those

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Speaker 2: park lips?

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Speaker 5: Do you know that?

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Speaker 4: I do?

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Speaker 3: I can find the number like you give us the number,

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Speaker 3: and can I said to you, I asked you nicely,

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Speaker 3: could you take a photo when you see people in there?

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Speaker 3: Because I don't see people in them, and I am

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Speaker 3: a professional who works in the trade and is on

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Speaker 3: the streets every Friday and Saturdays and sometimes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't really know how to have this

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Speaker 4: debate when sort of just kind of it's very clear

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Speaker 4: that people use the parklets like I have eyes. Sure

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Speaker 4: I can take some photos. I just think this is

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Speaker 4: a dumb thing to argue about, because this is just reality.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you've clearly got two very different views there, Joe,

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Speaker 1: who would have an incentive to talk Wellington down?

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Speaker 4: Look, I mean, I think there's people obviously who don't

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Speaker 4: like some of the current council. You know, there's people

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Speaker 4: who don't like what the city represents politically and the

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Speaker 4: kind of people who work in this city. You know,

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Speaker 4: you actually see the same narrative in the US. You know,

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Speaker 4: the likes of Fox News like to talk down cities

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Speaker 4: that are known for being lefty, progressive cities San Francisco, Chicago,

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Speaker 4: that sort of thing.

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Speaker 5: I'm just a bit bored of it.

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Speaker 4: So people with different political views sometimes.

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Speaker 1: What was introduced as a temporary measure during COVID four

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Speaker 1: years ago, is risks putting pressure on team performance, office culture,

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Speaker 1: and talent development.

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Speaker 6: And while some swear by the benefits of working from

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Speaker 6: their kitchen table, others admit that routinely leaving the house

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Speaker 6: for work increases their motivation, focus, and productivity. There are

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Speaker 6: good reasons why office workers have traditionally been physically brought

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Speaker 6: together for work.

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Speaker 1: Moving on, what do you both make of the call

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Speaker 1: to order public servants back into the office. The government's

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Speaker 1: looking at this from a productivity point of view, But

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Speaker 1: is it the right move for the local economy.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think in the short term it's going

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Speaker 4: to be a boost, so I think it's kind of undeniable.

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Speaker 4: Having more people in the city and the office is

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Speaker 4: going to mean sales and cafes and after work drinks.

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Speaker 5: But I kind of don't think a required.

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Speaker 4: Captured, captured market is a particularly good way to build

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Speaker 4: the economic base of a city. I think the answer

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Speaker 4: is going to have to be make the city a

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Speaker 4: better place to be, make it pleasant for customers to

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Speaker 4: go out, walk the streets, visit bars, make it more walkable,

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Speaker 4: and you know, just do the things that make businesses

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Speaker 4: and people want to be there. I just don't think

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Speaker 4: like requiring this stuff is the answer in the long term.

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Speaker 1: How do you make it more attractive then.

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Speaker 4: Things like parklets obviously, pedestrianization, widening the footpaths one thing

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Speaker 4: I'd really like to see some investments. There's a lot

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Speaker 4: more lighting on awnings. You know, along Courtney Place in

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Speaker 4: Cuba Street, there's these random dark patches and there's little

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Speaker 4: things like that in terms of urban design that make

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Speaker 4: a big difference just in terms of it feeling safer

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Speaker 4: and more pleasant for people to go out and and

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Speaker 4: you know, like you might not think that's a big deal,

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Speaker 4: but you know, it just just plays on people's minds

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Speaker 4: a lot.

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Speaker 5: And it's spend.

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Speaker 4: It comes down to how long they want to spend out,

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Speaker 4: how much money they want to spend, how much they

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Speaker 4: want to go out and enjoy the city. Now.

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Speaker 3: See, I love the idea Suzie of the awnings in

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Speaker 3: front of bars and restaurants. And we've got a little

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Speaker 3: tiny Mexican restaurant that we've asked the council three or

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Speaker 3: four times if we can put a nice little warning.

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Speaker 3: We've got a tiny little outside area we wanted to

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Speaker 3: put an awning over. Yeah, the answer is yes, but

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Speaker 3: you know what it's going to cost us. We've got

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Speaker 3: to apply for a license for the awning. Then we

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Speaker 3: have to pay a rental of nearly four thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: a year to have a little awning.

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Speaker 2: That looks after two tables.

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Speaker 3: So if you want to have a beautiful city, and

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Speaker 3: I agree with a lot of what Joel's saying about

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Speaker 3: making the city better, he's got no argument from me

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Speaker 3: on that. But the end of the day, those parklands.

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Speaker 3: If I wanted to put a park in front of

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Speaker 3: my little Mexican restaurant, that'll cost me about seven or

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Speaker 3: eight grand a year. Put the warning on. That's another

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Speaker 3: four ground. This is all money going to the council.

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Speaker 3: I think I'd rather pay my landlords some money to

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Speaker 3: have it inside and be able to use it all

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Speaker 3: the time.

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Speaker 1: So are you an affect saying that too much red

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Speaker 1: tape is sort of threatening the vine ability of businesses

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Speaker 1: in Wellington right now?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And but that's not a new problem. Let's not

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Speaker 3: say that this, let's not point that to to the

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Speaker 3: current council. That's been forever, but it does. It's always

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Speaker 3: been a city that's been difficult to get anything to

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Speaker 3: move or change. I mean, as soon as the part

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Speaker 3: the Seventh Party became too big, you know, the police

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Speaker 3: and the council said, oh we better stop doing that.

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Speaker 3: As soon as the motor car racing which was huge

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Speaker 3: in Wellington and New Zealand, as soon as that got

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Speaker 3: too big, oh let's get rid of that where you know,

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Speaker 3: wow will be the next thing we lose. It's just

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Speaker 3: we are in a city that does not want to

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Speaker 3: make make the big decisions and have the big parties.

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Speaker 5: I mean I actually agree with Nick a lot there.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's not much that a council for example,

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Speaker 4: can do to change like the underlying economic conditions. But

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Speaker 4: one thing that you know could be done is is

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Speaker 4: kind of removing that red tape making it easier to

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Speaker 4: get food and drink licenses, some kind of stimulus not

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Speaker 4: stimulus package, but you know, some kind of subsidy to

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Speaker 4: get more awnings or to get more lighting onto the street.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't have a particular solution, but what

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Speaker 4: can we do to encourage landlords and business owners just

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Speaker 4: to put some more lights up around their buildings. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's the kind of stuff that can be done fairly cheaply,

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Speaker 4: I mean parklets. You know it's a one off application

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Speaker 4: fee of one hundred and ninety seven dollars and an

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Speaker 4: annual renewal fee of ninety nine dollars. I'm sure it

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Speaker 4: would cost you a lot more to rent that much

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Speaker 4: space if it was inside a building.

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Speaker 5: This is just fun.

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Speaker 3: I don't know where you got those figures from, because

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Speaker 3: I'm reading it on the post right now. Well I

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Speaker 3: made an application for one of my businesses for those part.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot more than ninety nine dollars. Oh my god,

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Speaker 3: you know how much it cost just to put the

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Speaker 3: five or six tables outside Hummingbird, well established, well respected

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Speaker 3: dining areas.

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Speaker 2: It cost a hell of a lot more than that.

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Speaker 2: You've got those figures wrong. Sorry.

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Speaker 1: It's clearly a tough time for businesses in Wellington right now,

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Speaker 1: and the Public Service Association has come out and blamed

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Speaker 1: the government's public service cuts for the lack of people

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Speaker 1: coming to work. Is that a fair statement?

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Speaker 3: No, I don't believe so. I think that it's had

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Speaker 3: some effect. Of course, it's had some effect if you

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Speaker 3: lose five thousand people. And you know, I tell the

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Speaker 3: story all the time I walked outside to one of

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Speaker 3: my restaurant, one of the little places the other month now,

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Speaker 3: a couple of months ago, and this forty year old couple,

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Speaker 3: you know, like mid late thirties, early forties, couple, lovely couple,

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Speaker 3: about to go in the restaurant. And as I was

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Speaker 3: walking out and they recognized me and said hello, I

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Speaker 3: didn't know who they were anyway, but anyway, long story short,

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Speaker 3: they said, we feel embarrassed going out for dinner. And

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Speaker 3: I thought they were talking about going into one, you know,

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Speaker 3: to my restaurant, and they were actually saying that they

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Speaker 3: felt embarrassed that they were going out for dinner because

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Speaker 3: some of their colleagues had lost their job. So there's

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Speaker 3: a whole snowballing effect and the scare the fright. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you're sitting next to someone and they've just lost

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Speaker 3: their job, what does that do to you?

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Speaker 2: That makes you think? Wow? And when are my next?

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Speaker 2: Or could I be next?

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Speaker 5: Gee?

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Speaker 3: They were good at their job and I might lose

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Speaker 3: my job. There's a whole fear thing in the city,

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Speaker 3: and we've got to get over it. The city is beautiful.

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Speaker 3: This is the best city in the country, no question.

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Speaker 3: I just walked around the block before looking at it.

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Speaker 3: It's a beautiful city and it's been a funky city.

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Speaker 3: We had, you know, we were the coffee city of

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Speaker 3: New Zealand. We know we had the movies that you know,

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Speaker 3: we were it and now we're not.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you say we have to get over it. What

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Speaker 1: other options are there to help Wellington's economy?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, if you're asking me, I say, this

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Speaker 3: is where Tory could help us. I think Tory is

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Speaker 3: really stuck in the weeds. I reckon that she's surrounded

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Speaker 3: round by people that are telling her how good she is,

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Speaker 3: how her dress what do I call it?

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Speaker 2: The Empress new clothes.

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Speaker 3: She looks amazing, she's fantastic, and she's great, and she's

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Speaker 3: doing a great time. And by god, you're changing. You're

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Speaker 3: going to change Wellington forever. Right now, we need to survive.

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Speaker 3: We don't need to change. You know, we don't need

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Speaker 3: this massive golden mile. We don't need it. We need

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Speaker 3: to get what we've got back on track. We need

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Speaker 3: to get moving and then do all the big stuff.

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Speaker 3: And I think that that's where the problem. If you

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Speaker 3: want to mention Tory far, that's where the problem. She's

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Speaker 3: been surrounded with people that aren't giving you the right advice.

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Speaker 1: Nick. On top of the city's financial issues, there's also

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Speaker 1: toy Fano. You interviewed her last week, she revealed she'd

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Speaker 1: sold her car.

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Speaker 2: Do you actually feel what we as well Antonians are

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Speaker 2: feeling right now?

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Look, I don't want to downplay the privilege that I have,

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Speaker 7: right so, I am the mayor of the city. I

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Speaker 7: have a house, and I'm very thankful for that. However,

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Speaker 7: I've just sold my car recently to kind of.

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Speaker 2: Help pay the bills.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people look at them, were like, oh,

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Speaker 4: to Fano is one hundred and ninety grand.

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Speaker 5: Does she really need to sell her card?

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Speaker 4: I mean, did you need to actually sell a card

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Speaker 4: to pay the bills?

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Speaker 7: No, I actually didn't. It's a shame because it was

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Speaker 7: taken out of context. It was an hour long interview.

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Speaker 7: You get a bit relaxed, I mean, the main as

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Speaker 7: it actually was because it's a walkable city. I don't

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Speaker 7: need a car living in the city center, so you know,

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Speaker 7: so why did you say otherwise? I? Well, no, what

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Speaker 7: I said was, yes, I've sold my car and made

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Speaker 7: some comments. What I do think is that it's been

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Speaker 7: completely blown out of proportion.

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Speaker 1: What was your reaction to that statement initially and then

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Speaker 1: her changing her story after that.

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Speaker 3: Well, for someone that's myself personally sold three cars in

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Speaker 3: the last two years, I understand selling cars.

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Speaker 2: So and my reasons probably were.

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Speaker 3: Exactly the reason that Tory told us her reasons why

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Speaker 3: I needed some cash so I sold a car. This

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Speaker 3: is where the whole thing's got really out of hilter

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Speaker 3: for me. I just said to her, and I'm doing

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Speaker 3: it tough, and I am doing it tough. So I

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Speaker 3: admit to that, right. Business is tough, and I'm doing

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Speaker 3: it tough, and I'm trying to get through these hard

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Speaker 3: times at hospitalities suffering.

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Speaker 2: So I said, do you really understand how tough it is?

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Speaker 3: That's what I said to it, like just exactly the

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Speaker 3: same for Baita what I said, And she said, of course,

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Speaker 3: I understand. My mortgage is doubled. My you know I

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Speaker 3: have to sell my car. I know how hard it is, Nick,

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Speaker 3: And she looked me straight in the eyes, so I

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Speaker 3: just took it. Yeah, we're all on the same boat.

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Speaker 3: And just because she earns one hundred and ninety thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars a year doesn't mean that she might not be

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Speaker 3: doing it tough. You know, she might have the house

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Speaker 3: on one hundred percent mortgage, she might have other debts

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Speaker 3: she might have, you know, and I'm not getting into

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Speaker 3: that that's her problem. But I definitely believed when she

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Speaker 3: looked me in the eye and said, I know what

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Speaker 3: tough times are like.

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Speaker 2: You know how I believed her.

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Speaker 1: Joel, you said that Farno has the political radar of

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Speaker 1: the ter teddy. Just how bad are things looking for

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Speaker 1: her at the moment one year out from the potential

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Speaker 1: re election campaign, and some of these issues were spoken

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Speaker 1: about a bit of a nail in the coffin for

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Speaker 1: that campaign.

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Speaker 4: I think it's getting close to it. I mean that

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Speaker 4: interview with Nick and then the follow up interview with

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Speaker 4: Jack Team was just a bit of a rolling disaster.

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Speaker 5: Really.

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Speaker 4: You know, the Tori Fino just keeps putting her foot

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Speaker 4: on it when she doesn't need to. Whether she sold

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Speaker 4: her car or not, which you know, it sounds like

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Speaker 4: she did. The reason why she sold it that was

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Speaker 4: up to it.

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Speaker 5: When you're a.

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Speaker 4: Politician earning one hundred and ninety K and you have

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Speaker 4: won lotto in the past, no one wants to hear

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Speaker 4: about you pretending like you have a normal financial struggle

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Speaker 4: and you know same for when you're a business owner

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Speaker 4: who owns five bars. People don't want to hear that.

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Speaker 4: Why don't want to so why would you even bring that?

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Speaker 4: Was that was the miss because as a politician it

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Speaker 4: just makes you look out of touch and you can't

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Speaker 4: relate to the ordinary financial financial circumstances of ordinary people.

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Speaker 4: It was poor political management and that's what she's had

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Speaker 4: a tendency to do, say things that get her in

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Speaker 4: trouble for no particular reason, and make some decisions around

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Speaker 4: the council table that seem to have very little political

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Speaker 4: upside and quite a lot of downside.

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Speaker 1: Really, the last two Wellington mayors only served one term.

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Speaker 1: Do you think Fanno will last past one term?

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Speaker 4: I think I think she's going to struggle in the

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Speaker 4: re election. It will come down to who else is

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Speaker 4: in the race right now. The only other candidate is

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Speaker 4: Ray Hung, who I don't think is a particularly strong candidate.

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Speaker 5: But I'm sure that more people will emerge.

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Speaker 4: The biggest achievements that she can point to from this

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Speaker 4: council term is the district Plan which has allowed a

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Speaker 4: lot more housing and the continued cycleway roll out, but

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Speaker 4: neither of those are actually her projects. It was just

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Speaker 4: a continuation under her leadership. So I think she's just

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Speaker 4: going to struggle to identify what she can point to

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Speaker 4: that she's done and how Yeah, just like, what is

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Speaker 4: the what is the call to those Green or labor

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Speaker 4: aligned voters who might want to vote for her but

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Speaker 4: are kind of struggling to get over the line.

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Speaker 2: I think that she's the front runner to win the

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Speaker 2: next election. Now.

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Speaker 3: I know that's going to ruffle a few feathers. I

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Speaker 3: don't think there's anyone that's you need to be an

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Speaker 3: ex all black or a very respected Wellington businessman to

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Speaker 3: put your businesswoman or businessman, preferably a business woman that

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Speaker 3: puts your name forward to win it. I think she's

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Speaker 3: hot favorite to win it again. I don't think she

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Speaker 3: needs to do anything apart from keep connected to the

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Speaker 3: Green Party to win.

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Speaker 2: But the one thing that will be a downer for

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Speaker 2: her if.

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Speaker 3: She expects everybody to use as a cycle way to

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Speaker 3: vote for her, then she won't get in because not

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Speaker 3: too many people use him.

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Speaker 1: If the two of you could make your way onto

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Speaker 1: council next year, what would you like to see Wellington

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Speaker 1: do to turn its fortunes around.

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Speaker 2: Starting with you, Nick, I would green light it.

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Speaker 3: I've got a little tattoo on my risk under my

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Speaker 3: watch that says green light. So I would be like

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Speaker 3: Joel said, and I would just make everything so much

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Speaker 3: easier to do. I've become the yes city of New Zealand. Again,

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Speaker 3: we want to do If Peter Jackson knocks on my

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Speaker 3: door and he wants to do a movie, yes, where

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Speaker 3: do you want to do it? If the Racing Carnival

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Speaker 3: want to do a big racing meeting, Yes, where do

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Speaker 3: you want to do it? I would become the most

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Speaker 3: yes city in the country. And to go along with

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Speaker 3: the beauty of the country, that's all we need to do.

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Speaker 3: We just need to turn from a no naysay to

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Speaker 3: a yes, yes, yes, please, thank you, let's get on

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Speaker 3: with it.

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Speaker 4: And what about you, Joel, I'm actually pretty much the

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Speaker 4: same answer. I think the Courtney Precinct project, which was

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Speaker 4: started by a bunch of bar owners, is one of

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Speaker 4: the most promising things we've seen. I think this could

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Speaker 4: be a potential opportunity to have some sort of different

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Speaker 4: by law covering that area. Yeah, just to say yes

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Speaker 4: to make it easier and easier and easier to get

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Speaker 4: food trucks out on the street, to have bars open late,

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Speaker 4: to make it easier to get licenses.

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Speaker 5: This is what they did with the district plan, and

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Speaker 5: that's why that's so promising.

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Speaker 4: They went from an incredibly restrictive set of housing rules

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Speaker 4: to an incredibly commissive one. Is it's now, you know,

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Speaker 4: you know, we're not seeing too much development because interest

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Speaker 4: rates are high, but it is. But we are seeing

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Speaker 4: more and we're seeing developers come out of the woodwork

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Speaker 4: and say, hey, I can build an apartment building here

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Speaker 4: now that I would not have been able to otherwise.

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Speaker 4: And we can just kind of take that lesson and

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Speaker 4: apply it to everything.

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Speaker 1: Nick and Joel, thanks for joining us that set for

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Speaker 1: this episode of the Front Page. You can read more

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Speaker 1: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at Inzet Herald

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Speaker 1: dot co dot endzet. The Front Page is produced by

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Speaker 1: Ethan Sells. Patty Fox is a sound engineer. I'm Susanne

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Speaker 1: or Quist. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or

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Speaker 1: where you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday

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Speaker 1: for another look behind the headlines.