1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The nineteen 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 2: ninety eight deaths of Ben Smart and Olivia Hope remain 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 2: one of New Zealand's most talked about cases. Scott Watson 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 2: has spent the last twenty five years behind bars after 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: being convicted of murdering them, despite no bodies ever being found. Now, 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 2: Watson is heading back to the courtroom, four years after 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 2: his case was referred back to the Court of Appeal 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: in what is his last shot at clearing his name. 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, we'll talk to senior NZED 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: Herald journalist David Fisher about the evidence that will be 13 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 2: debated during this week long hearing. But first we're going 14 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 2: back to nineteen ninety nine with enzed Herold's senior journalist 15 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: Carolyn Menyee and editorial leader Oscar Ali, who covered Watson's 16 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: first trial. First off, do you both remember when the 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: news came in that Ben and Olivia had gone missing? 18 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yes, it was extraordinary really for a 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: number of reasons, because, i mean, let's face it, most 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: people remember New Year's Eve nights and going out and partying, 21 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: and no one would ever think two young kids would 22 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: never come home to their families and are still missing. 23 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 3: It was massive from the start, and you've got to 24 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 3: remember too that it was New Year's Day they were missing, 25 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 3: very quiet time for the news. So sometimes stories become 26 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 3: bigger faster because it's not a lot happening in the country, 27 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: but you know, a couple of really attractive kids doing 28 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 3: what a lot of kids of that age did, which 29 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 3: is their first holidays with their friends, not their family. 30 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 3: And also to be fair to their parents, they were 31 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 3: very vocal very quickly that you could see the concern, 32 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 3: and obviously as the days went on it just got 33 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 3: grimmer and grimmar. 34 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: Not to mention their surnames, Hope, and you know, they 35 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: were the perfect set of white middle class kids, beautiful, intelligent, 36 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: their whole lives ahead of them, and I think that's 37 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: what capitivated the country too, because I think if it was, 38 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 1: you know, as some different people in a small town 39 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: for example, there wouldn't have been such a huge kind 40 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: of interest. 41 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 3: So you've got to remember too, this is ninety seven, 42 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 3: ninety eight, no cell phones. We all carry GPS devices 43 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 3: now called smartphones. People didn't go missing rarely in this 44 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 3: country back then, and you were as a kid growing up, 45 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 3: you went out for a day and your parents know 46 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:35,839 Speaker 3: where you were. There was no phone to ring you on. 47 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 3: There wasn't necessarily a payphone, so it was a very 48 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 3: different age. It's more than twenty five years ago. It'd 49 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 3: be hard to think that people going missing like that nowadays, 50 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 3: with all the technology that we have, cell phones, pinging towers, 51 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 3: But back in ninety seven ninety eight, it was very 52 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 3: rare for people to just disappear, especially at such a 53 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 3: busy three thousand people at that party, it just didn't happen. 54 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: It took about six months for Scott Watson to be 55 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 2: arrested in ch arged with the case. Now, how was 56 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: he portrayed in the public eye over that time. 57 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: Well, in my opinion, I think he was portrayed as 58 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: quite a villain from the outset and certainly from the 59 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: police's perspective at the time. There was such a huge 60 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: pressure for the police to convict someone for these two 61 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: kids going missing, and Scott, given his background as a 62 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: young teenager, was always in trouble. He was actually in 63 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: Ballstal and from memory when he was in bull stall. 64 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,119 Speaker 1: As a teenager, he recovered a story at the time 65 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: for sixty minutes, stabbed the padre and the eye with 66 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: a big spike. So he was a bad egg from 67 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: a young age. But to be honest, I think that 68 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: he was probably unfairly maligned at the artset. He was 69 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: on his own at the time. At the party, he 70 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: was very drunk, very obnoxious, hitting on woman, being really inappropriate, 71 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: So he didn't portray himself in very good light in 72 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: those circumstances. 73 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 3: I think it's been pretty well established now that police 74 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 3: were leaky and while it took six months to a 75 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 3: Scott Watson, they pulled his boat the Blade, out of 76 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 3: the water on January the twelfth, and every TV camera 77 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 3: and newspaper photographer knew to be there for that. And 78 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: once that happened in broad daylight with an audience of media, 79 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 3: it was pretty obvious that Watson was a significant person 80 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 3: of interest. It got reported that he had forty eight 81 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 3: previous criminal convictions, and you've got to understand when there's 82 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 3: a six month gap between people going missing and someone 83 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 3: being charged, it's a long period of time where the 84 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 3: media can report about people there's no subject to say 85 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 3: because no charges are being laid or are about to 86 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 3: be laid, and that had a lot of consequences when 87 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 3: it came time for the trial and people giving evidence 88 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 3: as witnesses in the High Court, who've been interviewed by 89 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 3: media days after it happened. It caused a lot of complications. 90 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 4: And there are a lot of people who are happy 91 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 4: to say, and you heard this so much at the time, 92 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 4: you know, well, we're maybe a little unsure whether he 93 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 4: did it or not, but he's not a very nice guy. 94 00:04:58,480 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 4: It doesn't really matter. 95 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 5: It matters a lot. 96 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 4: Because if we can do that for him, we could 97 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 4: do it for anybody. 98 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: Going forwards to nineteen ninety nine, that trial went on 99 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: for about three months. Like you say, it would have 100 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: been quite hard to find a jury who didn't know 101 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 2: anything about this case. 102 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 3: Hey, that's right, and that's one of the reasons why 103 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: it was shifted Dwellington. And also you could remember in 104 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 3: those days there was no social media that's on Facebook, 105 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 3: There was barely cell phones. Everyone consumed mainstream media through 106 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 3: television and newspapers. News websites were just sort of starting, 107 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 3: and there was so much information about this case. It 108 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 3: took eighteen months to get to trial that already been 109 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 3: what's called a deposition's hearing and Blenham and we don't 110 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: do that anymore, but that's basically a dry run of 111 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 3: the key bits of the evidence for a judge to 112 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,239 Speaker 3: decide if there's enough evidence to stand trial. So everyone 113 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 3: had already heard most of the evidence against Scott Watson 114 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 3: by that case, not all of it, And there were 115 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 3: certainly a lot of dramatic revelations at the trial. But 116 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 3: the whole country was talking about this like it sounds 117 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 3: not very nice to say, but this case was New 118 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: Zealand's ij Simpson case. Justice case that just captivated the 119 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 3: country for eighteen months. 120 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: For a lot of reasons too, because of police procedure 121 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: or their lack of it, or their lack of transparency 122 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: in terms of evidence, in terms of like using his 123 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: photographs and showing witnesses different photographs of him looking into 124 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: several who looked nothing like that on the night, even 125 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: drawings m of the drawing of him looking scruffy. So 126 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: people kind of already made up their minds in a way, 127 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: I feel, and early. 128 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: On as well, Ben and Olivia's parents were quite vocal 129 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 2: in the media, Hey, how do you think that helped 130 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: or perhaps hindered the case in those early days, because 131 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 2: now they don't speak at all. 132 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: No, Well, I think Gerald Hope was very vocal, and 133 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: he obviously and then you know later became the mayor 134 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: of Blenham. But also because they were very credible. I 135 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: think people were captured by these families. The Smart family 136 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: were less vocal, but Gerald certainly, he was pretty much 137 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: a spokesperson for both families. And you're right like I 138 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: think like nowadays you would really subdue to say anyway 139 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: to talk before a trial, but he was very vocal 140 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: from the out. 141 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: Yet the case has become pretty notorious as one of 142 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: New Zealand's most controversial cases. Was there that feeling during 143 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: the trial that this was going to be quite contentious? 144 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: There were certainly some big surprises at the trial. The 145 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: whole country was watching, so I was covering it for 146 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 3: the Dominion newspaper and we set aside whole pages with 147 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 3: no ads for all of the evidence every day, and 148 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 3: I was there for every day of three months. The 149 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 3: interest was enormous. It just led TV news every night. 150 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 3: People just couldn't get enough information. 151 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 5: And I think. 152 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 3: Chelsea, you could feel the pressure, You could feel the 153 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 3: pressure on everyone, the jury, the judged, the lawyers. And 154 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 3: this might sound really silly, the media, we felt it too, 155 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 3: because your bylines on the story, people realize who you are, 156 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 3: and every party or social interaction you have they're talking 157 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 3: about this case. That's what I make the OJ comparison. 158 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 3: It just captivated the whole country, and I think Carra 159 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 3: is right. People had actually made up their mind about 160 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 3: Scott Waltson and in terms of the justice system, it's 161 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 3: twenty five years and we're still talking about this and 162 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 3: I look at these things and I think, what if 163 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: he didn't do it, what if he's been in prison 164 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: for all this time. I don't lose any sleep about 165 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 3: the verdict, and I haven't followed really closely the appeal stuff, 166 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 3: but what I would say is that Scott Watson had 167 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 3: two excellent defense lawyers for his trial, Bruce Davidson who's 168 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 3: now a judge, and Mike and Tanovic. They really believed 169 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 3: in his innocence. They fought tooth and nail, and a 170 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 3: lot of what the appeals is now considering is the 171 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 3: great work that they did at trial, probing witnesses, finding 172 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 3: out about problems with evidence that the appeal as stands 173 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: on the shoulders of the work those two did at 174 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 3: the trial. 175 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: I think it's pretty well established that a lot of 176 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 2: this evidence in the case is circumstantial. 177 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 3: Hey, DNA was brand new in ninety nine. You know, 178 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 3: it's very hard because there was so much publicity of 179 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 3: this before I got the trial and everything that's happening 180 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 3: now be really clear. This was a big deal in 181 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine. This was contentious. 182 00:08:58,880 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 5: Then. 183 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 3: The ESA evidence about supposedly Olivia's heirs on the blanket 184 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 3: on Scott Watson's boat. That was absolutely damning at the 185 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 3: time because there was no evidence that they'd met, unless 186 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 3: you believe he was in the water taxi and offered 187 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 3: for bedding Olivia to sleep on their boat. But there 188 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 3: was no sightings of them together. So for a jury 189 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 3: and for the public, how do hears get on someone's 190 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 3: boat of someone you've never met? And there was all 191 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 3: this evidence about secondary transfer and you're at a party 192 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 3: and you bump into someone and here goes on you, 193 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 3: and they bump into someone else, and here goes on 194 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 3: someone else. Quite far fetched but powerful evidence, right, And 195 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 3: this is what the appeal is about now, is Yeah, 196 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 3: there were serious problems with the way that evidence was 197 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 3: tested and collected. That happened at the time that ESR 198 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: scientist got absolutely grilled on the stand Erarors were made 199 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 3: not to mention. 200 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: What is it called the hatch there was on his boat. 201 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: Now that was proven, that was false. And I've actually 202 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: been on the blade twice. Not long after the trial 203 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: ended and the verdict, we interviewed Watson's family, his mother 204 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: Bev and dad Chris, and we actually went sailing on 205 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: the blade and we went back again sailing for the 206 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: twenty year podcast. And it was quite chilling actually being 207 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: on the blade because it was so tiny. It's really noisy, 208 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: and all I could think about was at the time 209 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, imagine if they were there, 210 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: you know, they could look out, but no one could 211 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: look in. And if they were actually in there, tripped 212 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: in there, I just thought, God, how terrifying those wool 213 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: kids must have felt. 214 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 5: So at the trial that was very powerful evidence. 215 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 3: The crown case was that Olivia was fighting for her 216 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 3: life to get out of the boat, and that's powerful evidence. 217 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 3: And when it's presented in the context of Olivia's hairs 218 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 3: were on the blanket on the boat and then a 219 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 3: lot was made of Scott Watson's behavior after the kids 220 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 3: went missing. The entire boat had been washed down, cassette 221 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: tapes had been. 222 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 5: White wiped well. 223 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: He painted the bar and made. 224 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 5: A big deal of that. 225 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 3: The defense explained nearly all of that. There'd been water 226 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 3: on board, rough sailing, crossing cooks straight. That's why things 227 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 3: have been cleaned, because saltwater gets in a damage things. 228 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 3: Much was made of Scott Watson painting his boat in 229 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 3: the following days. He ordered the paint weeks earlier, so 230 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 3: it all looked sinister. And they talk in criminal trials 231 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 3: about each piece of evidence to strand, and the strand 232 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 3: builds a rope. 233 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 5: That's the way judges explained it. 234 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 3: There were a lot of strands that knotted together and 235 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 3: made quite a strong rope. But the jury were made 236 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 3: to ask some quite big leaps of faith in the 237 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 3: crown case. 238 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 2: What do you think swayed the jury in. 239 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 3: The end, what I learned from this trial, Chelsea, was 240 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 3: the pressure on juries to come up with verdicts is enormous. 241 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 3: What swayed the jury theirs. The two prison witnesses who 242 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 3: claimed that Scott Watson confessed to them that was a 243 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 3: truly horrific day. And what the jury didn't know was 244 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 3: both of those guys had to come and give evidence 245 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: in front of the judge with no jury present, because 246 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 3: the judge had to make a rolling on whether what 247 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 3: they were going to say would be admissible. So we 248 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 3: were in court for that, the jury weren't, so we 249 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 3: actually saw two runs of that evidence that was very powerful. 250 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 5: The other thing, too, is Scott Watson is guilty. 251 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 3: Of being a drunken asshole that night and heading on anyone, 252 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 3: particularly blondes. He was very badly behaved and a lot 253 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 3: of people remembered. He made one horrific comment to a 254 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 3: young girl and she gave evidence and they were talking 255 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 3: and she explained that I think a relative had cancer 256 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 3: and Watson seat of had a cracker area and she 257 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 3: rejected him, and he just looked at her and said, 258 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 3: I hope your mother dies of cancer. And the jury 259 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 3: gasped in the public gallery gust He's a very introverted, 260 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 3: hard to read kind of guy, and like I say, 261 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 3: the strands just kept building. 262 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: Well, the fact of the matter is you can be 263 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: an asshole, but that doesn't make you a murder. 264 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: Correct. 265 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 2: Was that a real issue here? 266 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: Well, because he was a dodgy character by nature, and 267 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 1: I think and also just his previous convictions, which were, 268 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: as Oscar said, you know, forty eight convictions, so already 269 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: in the public's mind, he was guilty in my opinion, 270 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: because his parents weren't like Hopes and Smarts. They weren't 271 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: middle class people. They were working class people. His father 272 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: was a boat builder, his mother worked at the pub 273 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: behind the Bard. Kind of when you build that picture 274 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: of Scott Watson and the fact that borstal all, you 275 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: know his antisocial behavior, you know, you are building a picture. 276 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,599 Speaker 1: The one thing we haven't talked about too, Oscar is 277 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: Guy Wallace, you know, because he was a crucial witness 278 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: to the connection and then he changed his mind. And 279 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: when we interviewed him, what four years ago, he regrets 280 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: that he feels very guilty. Sadly he's no longer with us. 281 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: But there was a lot of pressure I think the 282 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: police placed, in my personal opinion, police placed a lot 283 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: of pressure on people and witnesses. 284 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, And when you talk about pressure, so many lives 285 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 3: have been damaged or destroyed by this case, and not 286 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 3: just Ben and not just Olivia. But the trial opened 287 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 3: with evidence from Ben and Livery's parents, and it was 288 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 3: just horrific because it was they were fun, loving and 289 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 3: what were they doing and it's one of their first 290 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 3: holidays away with their friends of their parents, and it 291 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 3: was very. 292 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 5: Powerful from the crowd. 293 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 3: It really created these wonderful, well behaved, achieving young people 294 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 3: who would never do anything silly. And it was hard 295 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: to watch, was hard to be in court. They were 296 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 3: just nice kids and there was thousands of nice kids 297 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 3: at that party that night. It was a pretty out 298 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 3: of control party. It was a very powerful way to 299 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 3: open the case. And when I say, you know, other 300 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 3: lives damaged, Guy Wallace life never recovered from this. In 301 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 3: the guilt that he feels about being the person who 302 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 3: dropping these kids off at this mystery person's ketch. You know, 303 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: not everyone's alive in this case anymore. And what I 304 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 3: would say about the Hopes and the Smarts, they were 305 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 3: lovely people. Grief was just etched on their face at 306 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 3: the trial, you could see it. And they sat there 307 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 3: in the front row every day and listened to everything 308 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: and sometimes you'd hear the sobs and that would be 309 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 3: Olivia's mum or Ben's mum. They were lovely people and 310 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 3: to be fair to Chris Watson, Scott's father. He's a 311 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: really nice guy too, and he is quite convinced his 312 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 3: son didn't do it. And at the trial you'd have 313 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 3: these people coming and going in the media gathering, and 314 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 3: Scott Watson's Dad's there every day like a prior outside 315 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 3: the court during the breaks, no one went up to, 316 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 3: no one want to talk to him. He'd roll a 317 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 3: ciggi and just all the eyes boring on him. And 318 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 3: he's been really unwell. The grief from this case and 319 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 3: the tragedy and the pressure has taken a much bigger 320 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 3: toll than two young people. 321 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 6: And I don't believe that he has a venom to 322 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 6: do that. But I'm not going to go down the 323 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 6: track of being the emotional parent that's going to back 324 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 6: his son no matter what. 325 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: I have enormous admiration for Chris. I've known Chris all 326 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: those years. I've kept in touch with him all these years. 327 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: His wife, when I first approached her because part of 328 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: my job was to tie up people for interviews, afterwards, 329 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: spat at me and then I kind of befriended her 330 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: because back in those days, they has to smoke cigarette, 331 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: so I used to stand outside with her and with Chris, 332 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: and then eventually we built up a report. But I 333 00:15:54,960 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: cannot ever commend anyone more or actually has admiration for 334 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: a father who has so much love for a son 335 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: and such belief that a son is innocent. His whole 336 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: life has been dedicated for that, you know, And as 337 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: Oscar says, you know, Bev, she died of cancer a 338 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: few years ago, never seeing justice for her son that 339 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: she believed, of course he was innocent. But also, you know, 340 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: for poor Mary Smart, because her husband John died and 341 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: Mary Smart bumps into Chris Watson pretty much once sweet 342 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: because they live and picked in really close to each other. 343 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: In fact, it's a really chilling reminder because Chris has 344 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: the blade Scott Sloop and the harbor, and Mary Smart 345 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: lives right above the harbor, and the blade is a 346 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: constant reminder of her son. 347 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 2: And just finally we're still talking about it nearly twenty 348 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 2: five years later. Kara, you've done a podcast, the Murder 349 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: in the Sounds. Why do you think this case is 350 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: still sparking this debate after all this time? 351 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: Because there are two people missing, nobodies have ever been recovered, 352 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: no one really knows what happened, you know, have died. 353 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: Are older memories fade, but it's just I guess for me, 354 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: those lasting impressions of those two young kids with the 355 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: whole lives ahead of them just taken. I can still 356 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: see that photograph that we used every night on the news, 357 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: you know, on television, newspapers, there two of them together, 358 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: Olivia and Ben, and you think, nah, they would be 359 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: were in their forties. They should by rights be parents 360 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: for their own children, you know, sending them off to 361 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: a New Ye's Eve party. 362 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 3: And we should acknowledge this is too long for the 363 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 3: justice system to do its thing. And this partly reflects 364 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 3: how Scott Watson is just going to keep fighting and 365 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 3: fighting fighting, and you have to respect that. But this 366 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 3: should have been resolved either way by now. It's been 367 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 3: two course, it's been to the Privy Council, and I 368 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 3: think the other issue here is that our parole system 369 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 3: can't handle people who refuse to admit they did it. 370 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 3: So Scott Watson was sentenced to a minimum non parole 371 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 3: period of seventeen years. 372 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 5: He could have potentially been released eight years ago. 373 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 3: So if the judge considered that that's what the punishment 374 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 3: should be for this crime. He's arguably done more than that. 375 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 3: The reasons why no one liked him on the night 376 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 3: are the reasons why he's not getting parole. He's got 377 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 3: some issues, and I just think, if you're in prison 378 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 3: for this long and you didn't do it, wouldn't it 379 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: drive you crazy? And one thing for me, Chelsea about 380 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 3: Scott is how we reacted when the jury came back 381 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 3: and said guilty. And for me, it's the most single 382 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 3: terrible memory of the trial was he just looked over 383 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 3: at them and he just said, you're wrong, really cocky, 384 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: really arrogant. And there was a lot of discussion right 385 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,239 Speaker 3: outside court after it because it was like, well, if 386 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: I didn't do it, I'd be screaming buddy murder, or 387 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 3: I'd be crying, or I'd be angry. 388 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 5: But it was cold, cold hearted that didn't do many favors. 389 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 3: But also, if you don't admit that you did it, 390 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 3: how can you get parole. So other countries have laws 391 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 3: now where if you say with the body is you 392 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 3: get an automatic sentence discount. And I think for Ben 393 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 3: Oliver's parents, so much of it was not really knowing 394 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 3: the final moments, not knowing where they are not getting 395 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 3: bodies back. What we talk about these days is closure, 396 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 3: which I don't think was a thing twenty five years ago. 397 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 3: But we understand the basic concept. But so why is 398 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 3: it still in the news. Well, because it was massively 399 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 3: controversial at the time. The crown that are closing that 400 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 3: invited the jury to ignore parts of the narrative that 401 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 3: didn't work, never explaining how he got back to shore 402 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 3: the second time to be in the water. 403 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 5: Taxi has been a liverit. 404 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 3: It was massively controversial then and it's a sense of 405 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 3: fascination now. 406 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Karen Oscar and you can listen 407 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 2: to Murdering the Sound on the Chasing Ghosts podcast feed 408 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts. Two key pieces of evidence 409 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 2: will be focused on during this appeal process. As at 410 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: Herald's senior reporter, David Fisher has been following this case 411 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 2: for much of the last twenty five years. He joins 412 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 2: us now to discuss what is being brought to the 413 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: table for the first time in the way of evidence. David, 414 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: the piece of evidence that led to Watson's appear he 415 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: revolves around the DNA evidence from two hairs found in 416 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 2: the boat. Hey, what can you tell us about that. 417 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 7: So the hair evidence was really interesting for a number 418 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 7: of reasons. One of those reasons was that police search 419 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 7: blade from top to tail and they fit a blanket 420 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 7: on the yacht. From that blanket, ESR retrieved about four 421 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 7: hundred hairs, and of those four hundred hairs, two of 422 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 7: those matched up with Olivia Hope. So the difficulty is 423 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 7: is that those hairs were being examined in the lab 424 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 7: on the same day that Olivia's hair samples taken from 425 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 7: a hair brush at her home were also being examined. 426 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 7: Then later at trial, the sample bag that contained Olivia's 427 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 7: hairs was found to have had one centimeter long slit 428 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 7: in it, and so then there was this question, well, 429 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 7: could it have been contaminated? Could the hair from one 430 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 7: have fallen into the other bag, or for that matter, 431 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 7: did the hair come from the hair brush and somehow 432 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 7: make its way into the other bag. This is to 433 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 7: point contention for quite some time, right down to whether 434 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 7: or not the scientist that was doing the examination changed 435 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 7: from one lab coat to another lab coat when working 436 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 7: from one sample to another sample. It's been certainly for 437 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 7: quite some time never really found as much traction as 438 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 7: Watson supporters wanted it to until this Court of Appeal 439 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 7: hearing a couple of years ago. 440 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 2: So for those who may not know, you get a 441 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 2: few chances at appeal, but then you cut off. Then 442 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: you have to go for what's called a royal prerogative 443 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: of mercy, and in order to do that you do 444 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 2: need new evidence. Are the hairs a part of why 445 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: Watson was granted a royal prerogative of mercy? 446 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 7: The case against Scott Watson has been challenged in a 447 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 7: multitude of different way, so yes, they were the Court 448 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 7: of Appeal hearings, There was an IPCA inquiry, There was 449 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 7: his initial denial of a rural progative of mercy claim 450 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 7: in twenty thirteen, and then again another one in twenty seventeen. 451 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 7: I think that was accepted his that was a part 452 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 7: of it. But back when the original case happened, when 453 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 7: Paul Davison QC was summing up the case on behalf 454 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 7: of the prosecution, he had said this case is a 455 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 7: jigsaw made of many different pieces, sort of a similar 456 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 7: analogy to circumstantial cases being talked about as being many 457 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 7: strands of a rope, and so the hes were always 458 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 7: one of those jigsaw puzzle pieces. There were a lot 459 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 7: of pieces that went into that puzzle, and the argument 460 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 7: has kind of been how many pieces of the puzzle 461 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 7: do you need to knock out before the picture makes 462 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 7: no sense? 463 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 2: The Court of Appeal later ruled that Watson's team can 464 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 2: also argue the so called blink photo that was used 465 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: to identify him. Why has that being so controversial? 466 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 7: So the IPCA in quiry in twenty ten that actually 467 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 7: identified the blink photograph as being problematic, I think was 468 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 7: the way that they praised it. They said it was 469 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 7: highly undesirable the way that police went about showing photomone 470 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 7: montages to people, and that it fell well short of 471 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 7: best practice. However, it was never framed in such a 472 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 7: way as to be the one single piece of evidence 473 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,239 Speaker 7: that was going to either convict Watson or get him 474 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 7: off the hook. But with the Blink photograph, the difficulty 475 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 7: here was that police forgiven a description of a man 476 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 7: who was behaving in an odd fashion at Pernolodge that night, 477 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 7: who had hooded eyes, and this was quite a distinctive 478 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 7: physical characteristic. Scott Watson, in this photograph called the blink photograph, 479 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 7: appeared to have hooded eyes, but that's because he was 480 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,479 Speaker 7: blinking when the photograph was taken. When you look at 481 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 7: the other photographs set of the end, they're not hooded eyes. 482 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 7: And so the photograph of Watson blinking with these hooded 483 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 7: eyes was seen as highly prejudicial by supporters of Watson, 484 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 7: who said that what in right it should have been allowed. 485 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 7: As I said back that up fell well short of 486 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 7: best practice, they said, highly undesirable. At what the Court 487 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 7: of Appeal has said, Well, if that's enough to give 488 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 7: a miscarriage of justice, that's for the Court of Appeal 489 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 7: to decide of the new hearing, and they gave a 490 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 7: green light for Watson to advance that. 491 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 8: Nicholas Chisnel became Scott Watson's lead council last year. 492 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 9: It is a case that invokes strong emotions and people, 493 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 9: both those who supports Scott and also those who feel 494 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 9: that he's to be criticized for wanting to have his 495 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 9: stay in court again. 496 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 8: Chisnel says, who's spoken to Scott Watson, who is excited 497 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 8: about the developments, although it is tempered by the fact 498 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 8: it's taken authorities just over two decades to review his case. 499 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 2: David Wilders isn't a part of the appeal. I understand 500 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 2: you once tested the Crown case involving Watson's boat the blade. 501 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 7: I'm really interested in this pieces of a puzzle thing 502 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 7: because there were pieces that you could look at and 503 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 7: knock out. And one of the things that have been 504 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 7: talked about was the Crown delegation that Watson had dropped 505 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 7: the body to the middle of the cook straight and 506 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 7: then there was also evidence that was put forward in 507 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 7: the trial that he was seen a period of time 508 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 7: later back in Mulder Sounds, at somebody's house or tied 509 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 7: up in a bay. The thing that captivated me about 510 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 7: this I didn't realize and yachtes no, is that there's 511 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 7: actually a scientific equation that says how fast a bok 512 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 7: could go depending on his kill length. And when you 513 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 7: got a measuring tape out, you applied it to a 514 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 7: map and you measured the length of the blade's kill. 515 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 7: You could see that and what's it going to happen? 516 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 7: So Chris Watson, Scott Watson's dad, he agreed to let 517 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 7: me test this out in the real world. So we 518 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 7: took Blade out to the middle of the cook straight 519 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 7: to the place where blade was apparently sighted, and we 520 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 7: did it at the same tide as occurred at that time. 521 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 7: It was a really carefully planned trip to try and 522 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 7: match up the environmental conditions as closely as possible, and 523 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,479 Speaker 7: then we went hell for leather to this bay that 524 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 7: Watson was apparently sighted and there's no way that you 525 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 7: can make the journey. It just doesn't work. And it 526 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 7: was fascinating to me because when Paul Davison summed up 527 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,239 Speaker 7: the case, and it was one heck of a summing up. 528 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 7: It was thirty thousand words of closing argument. Five percent 529 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 7: of that closing argument was about the bodies being done 530 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 7: and from the work that I did, it seemed impossible 531 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 7: that that could have happened. 532 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 2: And what's made you so interested in this case over 533 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 2: the years, David? Those pieces are the puzzle and seeing 534 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 2: how many you can knock out. 535 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 7: I think the thing about the Scott Watson case, well, 536 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 7: one thing is that the bodies of Been and Olivia 537 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 7: would never found and the greatest evidence that exists as 538 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 7: to who their killer is is likely with those bodies. 539 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 7: So it then becomes a very circumstantial case. And there 540 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 7: were pieces of evidence put forward that police would argue, 541 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 7: we're not circumstantial. The hairs on the boat. That's under question. 542 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 7: I just testimony also somewhat under question. The main person 543 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 7: that identified the blink photograph were caned and die not 544 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 7: so long ago, saying that he didn't believe that Scott 545 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 7: Watson was the person that he identified in that photograph. 546 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 7: I think the thing for me that's really interesting about 547 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 7: the case is so many unanswered questions, and it came 548 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 7: during a time when we were as a public somewhat 549 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 7: accustomed to questions coming from old cases. There was the 550 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 7: murders of the Swedish jurists, of the coromandal for which 551 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 7: David Tommyheaty was convicted. We go all the way back 552 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 7: to the crew murders and that seat of doubt that 553 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 7: was planted when police planted the Cartridge case. It sort 554 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 7: of raised a question over the way that police would 555 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 7: do their job at the time and in the decades 556 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 7: going forward, and Watson case just became another one of those. 557 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 7: I think one of the things that was really captivating 558 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 7: about the case, and I somewhat missed this because it 559 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 7: was out of the country for quite a number of 560 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 7: years around the time of the murders and the following trial, 561 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 7: was that they were kind of the perfect young summer couple. 562 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 7: They were really lovely looking kids that came from a 563 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 7: really nice home that we're having a New Year's Eve 564 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 7: of the sort that you would hope would be the 565 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 7: most memorable of their lives, which it turned out to 566 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 7: be for all the wrong reasons. 567 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, David. For news from the Appeal 568 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 2: as it comes through, head to enzidherld dot co dot 569 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 2: enz and for more on the Scott Watson case, including 570 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 2: his bids for parole, check out the links in our 571 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: show notes. That's it for this episode of the Front Page. 572 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 2: You can read more about today's stories and extensive news 573 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: coverage at enzidherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page 574 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Sills and sound engineer Patty Fox. 575 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio 576 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on 577 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 2: Monday for another look behind the headlines.