1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Kilda. 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Video sharing 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: website YouTube began twenty years ago with a nineteen second 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: video of one of its founders at the San Diego Zoo. Now, 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: hundreds of hours of content are uploaded to the platform 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 2: every single minute. There has been a huge shift globally 8 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 2: to rain in the social media giants. The UK has 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 2: introduced to age verification requirements, with Australia to follow suit 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 2: by the end of the year. Other countries like India, Germany, Spain, 11 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: Italy and Norway are also investigating exactly how to better 12 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 2: protect kids online. So should algorithms like youtubes be regulated 13 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 2: and how would we even do it? 14 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 3: Today? 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: On the Front Page, Victoria University of Wellington Associate Professor 16 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: doctor Peter Thompson is with us to discuss what New 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: Zealand should do and whether we're already fighting a losing 18 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: battle against harmful online contents. First off, Peter, let's start 19 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: with a relatively easy one. I suppose can you explain 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: what an algorithm is? 21 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 4: Okay? Well, an algorithm is a computer program applied to 22 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 4: the servers of online content in this context, and so 23 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 4: it basically determines the priority in which you will actually 24 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 4: come across and discover content on the platform you're using. 25 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 4: So on social media, they access our data. They look 26 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 4: at what we've liked where, what we've looked for, what 27 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 4: we've searched for, what we've engaged with, and that informs 28 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 4: the algorithm what kinds of content we're likely to want 29 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 4: in the future, and so it prioritized is things that 30 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 4: the algorithm tells the system is the sort of content 31 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 4: that we're going to spend our time with, because that's 32 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 4: how they make their money. 33 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: How good do you think the algorithm is, like does 34 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: it really know what we want? Or does it know 35 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: what it wants us to want? If that makes sense. 36 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 4: They're getting more sophisticated, that's for sure, certainly with AI, 37 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 4: but they don't really know who we are. I mean, 38 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 4: all they have is a data set based on our 39 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 4: online behavior that they can access. And that's why data 40 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 4: is so incredibly important because of course not only informs 41 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 4: the sort of content that we find on online platforms, 42 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 4: it also informs advertising and the way that advertisers might 43 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 4: pitch their particular products to us. 44 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: So you know. 45 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 4: Is it very effective, well, to some degree, yes. I 46 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 4: think most of us have had an experience where, for example, 47 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 4: we've gone online search for something and the next thing 48 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 4: we know, we're on social media and the thing that 49 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 4: we were just looking for is being advertised to us, 50 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 4: and there's a little bit disconcerting. On the other hand, 51 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 4: Facebook is still convinced I have a dog, which I don't. 52 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 4: It keeps advertising and maybe I'll watch dog videos, but 53 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 4: it clearly doesn't really know who I am, what I want, 54 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 4: So it still hits a mess to a large degree. 55 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: When we talk about YouTube, for example, there have been 56 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 2: some controversies about how it can take kids down. 57 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 5: These types of rabbit holes. 58 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: Hey, I read some comments from parents talking about it 59 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: in The Guardian. One said he actively fights against the algorithm. 60 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: He watches one video of a gel blaster, for instance, 61 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: then gets fed about one hundred videos of Americans firing guns. 62 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: Is there a fear that this kind of thing is 63 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: happening to our kids. 64 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 4: I think there's a legitimate concern there. There have been 65 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 4: a number of studies that have shown the tendency of algorithms, 66 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 4: and particularly YouTube algorithms, to take people further and further 67 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 4: down what we might call an extremist pathway. There was 68 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 4: a study by the University of minister As in Brazil. 69 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 4: It was a big international study. They looked at hundreds 70 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 4: of thousands of accounts and they found clear evidence of 71 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 4: a shift of viewser accessing you know, what they might 72 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 4: call the relatively light but right wing leaning kinds of content, 73 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 4: So maybe Fox News and the Daily Mail. Before very 74 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 4: long you're in the info wars with Alex Jones and 75 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 4: then going into some even more near dangerous and toxic content. 76 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 4: Now it doesn't happen all the time, but the tendency 77 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 4: is there, and that's been measured. There was another study 78 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 4: by Bellingcat that found similar things. They looked at a 79 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 4: number of self identified alt right users and the way 80 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 4: that they'd become red pilled, that they'd woken up to 81 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 4: their right wing reality, and a number of them explicitly 82 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 4: cited YouTube as a key motivator for their journey to 83 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 4: the far right. Now, of course, if you're on the 84 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 4: far right, you might think this is all well and good, 85 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 4: but if you know it possibly works in the other 86 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 4: direction if you're looking for extreme left or extreme religious 87 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 4: types of content. But the key thing is that the 88 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 4: algorithm is there. You know, its proprietary, it's owned by YouTube, 89 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 4: it's there for YouTube's use, and it's there to keep 90 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 4: our eyeballs on the screen because that's how they make 91 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 4: their money. They want us online because that's how we 92 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 4: get exposed to advertising and marketing opportunities. So the algorithm 93 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 4: from a commercial point of view, isn't political. It's economic, 94 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 4: and so it's there to try and keep our eyeballs 95 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 4: focused on whatever we seem to be wanting to see 96 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 4: more of. And does that have dangers? I would say 97 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 4: in some cases yes. 98 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: Remember the algorithm is a black box. No one knows 99 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: what it's doing. All YouTube can do is change the 100 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: feedback it's getting, change the signs that say this is 101 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: good or this is bad. If YouTube wants a human 102 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: to watch and categorize every video being uploaded as safe 103 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: or unsafe in real time, they would need about one 104 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: hundred thousand employees working shifts around the clock. Plus that 105 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: would expose them to legal issues in most of the 106 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: countries where YouTube has an office. If you let an 107 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: algorithm do the filtering and then manually step in when 108 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: you get a complaint, you illegally flying but if you 109 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: approve everything with a human in the loop, you are 110 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: a publisher and you're opening yourself up to some very 111 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: expensive lawsuits. 112 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 2: So we're talking about this now, hey, because worldwide there 113 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: have been moves to limit Internet access to under sixteen 114 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: year olds, things like social media in Australia, for example, 115 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: is YouTube a social media side It's not exactly what 116 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 2: one thinks first straight off the bat. 117 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 4: It's a very curious environment because the key thing with 118 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 4: social media is that they're primarily platforms user generated content. 119 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 4: So third parties provide the content on these platforms, and 120 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 4: that's very different from say a linear television broadcaster, where 121 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 4: you know somebody makes the programs or licenses the programs, 122 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 4: aggregates them and puts them out as a channel where 123 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 4: there's always editorial oversight, or indeed from a subscription video 124 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 4: on demand channel, where you know the library of content 125 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 4: or the atalogue of content has been brought in and 126 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 4: provided on the server and they know exactly what's there. 127 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 4: With online social media platforms, you don't know what that 128 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 4: content is. Now. YouTube's curious because it's not the sort 129 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 4: of social media site where people just go to share 130 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 4: the family photographs. You know, or exchange political views. You know. 131 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 4: It's very very video oriented and it always has been 132 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 4: so music videos are a big driver of content. Increasingly 133 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 4: television channels are setting up online, so it's a bit 134 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 4: of a one stop shop. You can find all kinds 135 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 4: of content there. YouTube doesn't have complete oversight, you know, 136 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 4: over the material that's been put out there. I mean, regrettably, 137 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 4: it was quite a significant host of the christ Church 138 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 4: terrorist video. Now even months after there were versions of 139 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 4: that popping up on YouTube. Now it's algorithms do, generally speaking, 140 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 4: pick that up and get rid of it. And there's 141 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 4: other forms of content that get policed. But there's so 142 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 4: so many people putting video material up on YouTube, it's 143 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 4: impossible to police everything. And therefore there is this potential, 144 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 4: you know, for children to access content that isn't appropriate 145 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 4: for them. Now, are there ways to police that, well, 146 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 4: I think there are, But does it require a total ban? 147 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 4: I think that would be perhaps a step too far 148 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 4: because there's also very useful educational content on YouTube, and 149 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 4: some of that material, you know, if children really wanted 150 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 4: to discover it, well, they're pretty smart and tech savvy, 151 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 4: you know, they can probably find ways around it. 152 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: What about YouTube kids. So I've got friends with children. 153 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 2: They watch a lot of kind of sensory videos on 154 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: YouTube kids. But those accounts, I understand is for kids 155 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: aged up to thirteen, right, and that's in accordance with 156 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act. But doesn't that skew 157 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 2: towards a much younger audience that should we be looking at, 158 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 2: say a YouTube teen's or something. 159 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 4: I think that would be a great idea. Now, does 160 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 4: it mean that you're you know, your fourteen year old 161 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 4: reaccessing sixteen year old content? Well, very likely, But I 162 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 4: think I think labeling is an underrated exercise in media 163 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 4: regulation because we know from studies by the BSA and 164 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 4: the Classification Office that people really do you those labels. 165 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 4: So if something is labeled R eighteen, well, okay, we 166 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 4: know that maybe sixteen, maybe even fourteen year olds will 167 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 4: probably try and access it. But if you have a 168 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 4: sense of responsibility, and most people do, you're not going 169 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 4: to let a ten year old or a five year 170 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 4: old access that kind of content. So if you have 171 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 4: built in systems, you know, where where someone can only 172 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 4: access the adult content if they have an account that 173 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 4: signals they're an adult, well that will cut out a 174 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 4: very very large range of potentially harmful exposures. It's not perfect. 175 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 4: If you're a terrorist and you're trying to live stream 176 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 4: your active terrorism, you're very unlikely to give our dance 177 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 4: notice that you've got an R eighteen video coming up, 178 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 4: or even an objectionable video coming up. So of course 179 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 4: it's not perfect. But would we all rest a little 180 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 4: more peacefully knowing that our children are more likely to 181 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 4: be playing in a safe soundbox, you know, with those protections. 182 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 4: I think yes, and it's doable. 183 00:10:58,120 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 184 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: I quite liked this comment from Australia's Federal Communications minister. 185 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 2: Her name's Aniica Wells, and she described protecting children from 186 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: internet harm as like trying to teach her kids how 187 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 2: to swim in the open ocean with rips and sharks 188 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 2: compared to a local pool. And she said, we can't 189 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: control the ocean, but we can police the sharks. But Peter, 190 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 2: can we police the sharks? 191 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 4: Well? I think we can. I don't think we've tried 192 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 4: hard enough to be perfectly honest. But if we take 193 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 4: the christ Church call, for example, and give ct the 194 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 4: Global Internet Forum for Encountering Terrorism, I mean they've put 195 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 4: in some incredibly sophisticated software, you know, for picking up 196 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 4: or on problematic content. It can't stop someone posting, you know, 197 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 4: terrible material like the terrorist video in the first place, 198 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,599 Speaker 4: but it picks it up incredibly quickly now and through hashtagging, 199 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 4: she's kind of a digital fingerprint on the way that 200 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 4: content is represented on the screen. There's be a pixel, 201 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 4: a series of data points that identify the problematic video, 202 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 4: and that goes out to all kinds of social media 203 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 4: and online operators and they all have the same code, 204 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 4: and they very very rapidly now have protocols for getting 205 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 4: rid of that content. So you know, there are things 206 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 4: we can do, and I think there's other other options there. 207 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 4: We could look at you closer identification of who's using 208 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 4: these accounts. We could look at age verification. So there's 209 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 4: a number of mechanisms that could be put in place. 210 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 4: And I have to say that none of this is 211 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 4: an affront of free speech, as some people on the 212 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 4: far right seem to imagine. And I do have to 213 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 4: question the motives of people that say that, such as 214 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 4: the threat to freedom of speech, we can't regulate any 215 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 4: media in any way. I think that's absolutely irresponsible, because 216 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 4: there are many ways that we can regulate the media 217 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 4: to protect the younger people in particular and to protect 218 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 4: the wider community. And it doesn't mean that we don't 219 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 4: get access to content. It just means that we're unable 220 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 4: to make more airful and better informed decisions. 221 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 5: That's it constantly telling us that they're really worried about 222 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 5: the impact that social media is having on their children, 223 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 5: and they say they're really struggling to manage access to 224 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 5: social media. 225 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 3: This bill is about protecting children from online harm, including bullying, addiction, 226 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 3: and exposure to inappropriate content. By restricting social media access 227 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 3: for under sixteen year olds, it puts the onus on 228 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 3: social media companies to verify that someone is over the 229 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 3: age of sixteen before they access social media platforms. 230 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 5: This is about protecting our children. It's about making sure 231 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 5: that social media companies playing their role in keeping all 232 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 5: of our kids safe. 233 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: Journalists, for example, we do stuff under the Broadcast Standards Authority. 234 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 2: We've also got ethics and things like that. I mean, 235 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 2: a so called journalist on YouTube just spouting off conspiracy theories, 236 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 2: what do they have any regulations or anything at the 237 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: moment or. 238 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 4: Short answer is no, Whether they're whether or not they 239 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 4: would counter as journalists, I think is the question. Now again, 240 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 4: this is where I would have some sympathy for the 241 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 4: argument for free speech. I mean, people are allowed to 242 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 4: be mistaken. I think there's a case for looking very 243 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 4: closely at platforms or channels that simply perpetuate disinformation and 244 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 4: really they're they're just a troll farm pumping out malinformed 245 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 4: material to a wide population. I think I think there's 246 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 4: a very strong case for regulating those sources. But does 247 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 4: that mean that we should all be looking over our 248 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 4: shoulder because big brothers going to censor us? I don't 249 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 4: think that would be the case. And so one way 250 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 4: to deal with that would be to flag content. You know, 251 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 4: if if a source is proven to be unreliable but 252 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 4: it's providing something that looks like news, you put a 253 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 4: label on saying, look, you know, experts consider this to 254 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 4: be an unreliable news website. 255 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 2: Facebook did for a minute, yeah that to Facebook did 256 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,479 Speaker 2: do that, and where that people were putting. 257 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 4: Vaccine skeptic material up on the platform, and they said, oh, look, 258 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 4: you know that this information is disputed, it's not seen 259 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 4: as reliable. Here's a link to some reliable information. Now, 260 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 4: that's not censorship. That's enabling the user to make more 261 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 4: sensible choices about the sorts of content that they engage with. 262 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 4: So again, that's not censorship. It's not saying you can't 263 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 4: have access to this information. It's not saying that you 264 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 4: can't have an opinion that differs from the mainstream. But 265 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 4: it is saying that we can enable the audience to 266 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 4: make more informed and more judicious decisions. And I think 267 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 4: that's where they go back to the algorithms. I think 268 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 4: that's where maybe we need to regulate the algorithms as well, 269 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 4: to make sure that when we're looking for news and 270 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 4: information that we find the reliable sources at the top 271 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 4: of our search or the top of our news feed, 272 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 4: that those sources are going to be the reliable sources 273 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 4: and not not ones that are of more dubious provenance. Right. 274 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 2: So, lastly, Peter, what should the New Zealand government do 275 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: if they were to do something tomorrow. It kind of 276 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 2: seems like at the moment they're sitting back and just 277 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: kind of checking out what the rest of the world 278 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: does and see what's working. 279 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 4: I think that's often the default position. There's a there's 280 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 4: a value in aligning whatever regulatory framework we you know, 281 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 4: we adopt here with the regulatory frameworks overseas, and i'd 282 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 4: be looking at Europe and the UK perhaps there. I mean, 283 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 4: Australia has got gone quite a long way towards blocking 284 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 4: social media for for for younger people. I don't think 285 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 4: you can ban it outright. I think that's going to 286 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 4: be quite difficult. But there are steps, as I say 287 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 4: to to looking at ways of flagging content or introducing 288 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 4: age verify and restricting the sorts of content available to 289 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 4: people in those age categories. Now they're not perfect, but 290 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 4: I think they would go a long way to protecting 291 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 4: younger people, and I think we should be looking at 292 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 4: those measures. I happen to think that the government made 293 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 4: a very poor decision to abandon the Safer Online Services 294 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 4: and Media Platforms proposals. They weren't fully formulated as a bill, 295 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 4: but there were some very sensible ideas there, none of 296 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 4: which included advancing censorship on free speech. They were all 297 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 4: about trying to make the public more able to control 298 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 4: the sorts of content that they're exposed to. So as 299 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 4: a first step, I go back to that and have 300 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 4: a look at what those proposals were because I thought 301 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 4: there were some very sensible ideas there. 302 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Peter, very welcome. That's it for 303 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: this episode of the Front Page. You can read more 304 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 2: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzerld dot 305 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 2: co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Jane 306 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm 307 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or 308 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for 309 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: another look behind the headlines.