1 00:00:07,133 --> 00:00:10,453 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack team podcast 2 00:00:10,573 --> 00:00:12,973 Speaker 1: from News Talks That'd be and. 3 00:00:12,973 --> 00:00:16,493 Speaker 2: Our clinical psychologist Google Sutherland from Umbrella Well Being is 4 00:00:16,533 --> 00:00:18,013 Speaker 2: here with us this morning. 5 00:00:18,053 --> 00:00:22,613 Speaker 3: Kilder Google Kilder Jack. Hey, you're mentioning before of rixham 6 00:00:22,693 --> 00:00:25,253 Speaker 3: and and the Tour de France. God, I love the 7 00:00:25,293 --> 00:00:28,693 Speaker 3: Tour de France. Isn't it amazing? Amazing? Speak to you 8 00:00:28,813 --> 00:00:29,493 Speaker 3: talked about. 9 00:00:29,293 --> 00:00:30,773 Speaker 2: Oh, you guys going to say there's going to be 10 00:00:30,813 --> 00:00:33,973 Speaker 2: dangerous territory. My producer Lebby's already scoffing and rolling her 11 00:00:33,973 --> 00:00:36,653 Speaker 2: eyes in the air breaks I tell her about what's 12 00:00:36,693 --> 00:00:38,853 Speaker 2: happened overnight. Lebby, It's just been. 13 00:00:38,813 --> 00:00:43,653 Speaker 3: Amazing, unbelievable, isn't it. I just I tried it, you go, yeah, No, 14 00:00:43,773 --> 00:00:45,613 Speaker 3: I was just every day I try to watch that 15 00:00:45,653 --> 00:00:50,133 Speaker 3: two hour, the last two hours they have and Tuddy Pagotcha. 16 00:00:50,253 --> 00:00:53,293 Speaker 3: It's like, Oh, it's just everything that you could want. 17 00:00:53,333 --> 00:00:56,693 Speaker 2: Really, it's so dramatic. Yeah, the thing is so the 18 00:00:56,733 --> 00:00:58,653 Speaker 2: way the tour works, and I promise that we're not 19 00:00:58,653 --> 00:01:00,293 Speaker 2: going to go on too long about this, but the 20 00:01:00,333 --> 00:01:02,093 Speaker 2: way that it works is for the first kind of 21 00:01:02,133 --> 00:01:04,493 Speaker 2: week and a half or so, they have these stages 22 00:01:04,533 --> 00:01:06,053 Speaker 2: that are one hundred and sixty hundred and seventy k 23 00:01:06,533 --> 00:01:08,933 Speaker 2: k is long, and they're kind of sprint stages. They 24 00:01:08,933 --> 00:01:11,013 Speaker 2: call them sprint stages, although for me, one hundred and 25 00:01:11,053 --> 00:01:13,533 Speaker 2: sixty k's is not a sprint anyway, But basically they 26 00:01:13,573 --> 00:01:16,693 Speaker 2: call them sprint stages because they're relatively flat, and so 27 00:01:17,213 --> 00:01:19,493 Speaker 2: in the last few k's of the race they have 28 00:01:19,573 --> 00:01:21,773 Speaker 2: the big, powerful sprinters who all sprint it out and 29 00:01:21,813 --> 00:01:24,093 Speaker 2: you have the kind of photo finish on the line. 30 00:01:24,333 --> 00:01:27,413 Speaker 2: But the way that the Tour de France is generally 31 00:01:27,453 --> 00:01:29,853 Speaker 2: decided is when they get into the mountains. So when 32 00:01:29,853 --> 00:01:32,253 Speaker 2: they get into the Pyrenees or they get into the Alps, 33 00:01:32,573 --> 00:01:35,333 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, one by one the cyclists 34 00:01:35,333 --> 00:01:38,693 Speaker 2: and those big pelotons just fall away and fall away 35 00:01:38,693 --> 00:01:41,773 Speaker 2: and fall away, and it comes down to man on man, 36 00:01:42,013 --> 00:01:45,253 Speaker 2: just the best cycler perform at altitudes and there's no hiding, 37 00:01:45,693 --> 00:01:47,173 Speaker 2: Like you've got all the fans on the side of 38 00:01:47,173 --> 00:01:50,573 Speaker 2: the road and you have these these incredible athletes just 39 00:01:50,693 --> 00:01:54,133 Speaker 2: one by one falling off to the side. It's so 40 00:01:54,133 --> 00:01:54,893 Speaker 2: so deceived. 41 00:01:55,933 --> 00:01:59,053 Speaker 3: Three thousand k's or something, isn't It's a scene that's 42 00:01:59,213 --> 00:01:59,693 Speaker 3: just it. 43 00:02:00,733 --> 00:02:02,933 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't see how it's fun. 44 00:02:03,333 --> 00:02:05,893 Speaker 3: Like, no, I don't know. It's a challenge. I can 45 00:02:05,933 --> 00:02:09,013 Speaker 3: see that, but gosh, yeah, fun doesn't really enter into 46 00:02:09,013 --> 00:02:09,693 Speaker 3: the vocal. 47 00:02:09,533 --> 00:02:14,213 Speaker 2: Mental The mental component must be so it must be amazing, 48 00:02:14,293 --> 00:02:16,013 Speaker 2: you know, just to get up and do a day 49 00:02:16,053 --> 00:02:18,373 Speaker 2: after that. Anyway, I'm glad that you're a fan as well, 50 00:02:18,373 --> 00:02:19,253 Speaker 2: because I'm sitting. 51 00:02:20,533 --> 00:02:21,533 Speaker 3: Absolutely Yeah. 52 00:02:21,573 --> 00:02:24,693 Speaker 2: Hey, today, you thought you would shine the light on 53 00:02:24,773 --> 00:02:28,493 Speaker 2: a psychological condition that I'm going to hazard a guess 54 00:02:28,533 --> 00:02:31,133 Speaker 2: and say that almost none of us have ever heard of. 55 00:02:31,373 --> 00:02:33,213 Speaker 2: It would be worth a fair amount on a triple 56 00:02:33,253 --> 00:02:36,013 Speaker 2: word score. Prosopagnosia, is that. 57 00:02:36,013 --> 00:02:38,693 Speaker 3: Right, proto pagnosia, Yeah. 58 00:02:39,293 --> 00:02:41,693 Speaker 2: As face blindness, face blindness. 59 00:02:41,733 --> 00:02:46,213 Speaker 3: So imagine that you that you arranged to meet somebody 60 00:02:46,373 --> 00:02:49,413 Speaker 3: and you arrive there and there's a whole bunch of 61 00:02:49,453 --> 00:02:52,893 Speaker 3: people and you go, I don't know the person that 62 00:02:52,933 --> 00:02:55,413 Speaker 3: i'm and they're familiar to you, they're a friend, they're 63 00:02:55,413 --> 00:02:58,053 Speaker 3: not just a stranger, and you just can't pick out 64 00:02:58,053 --> 00:03:00,653 Speaker 3: their face from all the faces around you. And that's 65 00:03:00,973 --> 00:03:04,653 Speaker 3: that's prosopagnosia. So that's the that it comes from the 66 00:03:04,693 --> 00:03:08,373 Speaker 3: Greek term for face and not knowing, So it means 67 00:03:08,373 --> 00:03:12,053 Speaker 3: that you you lose the ability. Sometimes you lose it 68 00:03:12,093 --> 00:03:14,053 Speaker 3: after like a brain injury or something like that, or 69 00:03:14,093 --> 00:03:16,293 Speaker 3: a stroke, or there are some people that are born 70 00:03:16,333 --> 00:03:20,693 Speaker 3: with it. But you don't have the ability to recognize faces, 71 00:03:20,733 --> 00:03:24,373 Speaker 3: so you can't tell one person from another by looking 72 00:03:24,373 --> 00:03:28,773 Speaker 3: at their face. And what a debilitating condition that is, 73 00:03:28,813 --> 00:03:33,653 Speaker 3: because you know, it's just recognizing faces is so obviously 74 00:03:33,693 --> 00:03:36,613 Speaker 3: so key to our social relationship. So if you don't 75 00:03:36,613 --> 00:03:39,413 Speaker 3: have it, it makes life mighty mighty hard for you. 76 00:03:39,573 --> 00:03:43,653 Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds sounds kind of remarkable, and and and 77 00:03:44,093 --> 00:03:47,413 Speaker 2: the way face blindness sounds extreme, so not But not 78 00:03:47,453 --> 00:03:50,613 Speaker 2: only is it that you can't necessarily recognize people's faces 79 00:03:50,613 --> 00:03:55,933 Speaker 2: really quickly, but you also can't recognize expressions, and of 80 00:03:55,933 --> 00:03:58,373 Speaker 2: course so much of communication is nonverbal. A't. 81 00:03:58,973 --> 00:04:03,213 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, so you can't. You you're just unable. And 82 00:04:03,493 --> 00:04:09,293 Speaker 3: it seems to be that people that have prosopagnosia they 83 00:04:10,213 --> 00:04:13,173 Speaker 3: can see the individual parts of the face, so not 84 00:04:13,213 --> 00:04:15,453 Speaker 3: like they can't see they can see your eyes and 85 00:04:15,733 --> 00:04:18,213 Speaker 3: your mouth and your nose, et cetera. But it's putting 86 00:04:18,293 --> 00:04:22,133 Speaker 3: all those together into in your head into one sort 87 00:04:22,133 --> 00:04:26,773 Speaker 3: of overall picture and that seems to be where the 88 00:04:26,813 --> 00:04:30,773 Speaker 3: problem lies. And some listeners I'm sure will be familiar 89 00:04:30,773 --> 00:04:35,533 Speaker 3: with the name Oliver Sax, who's neurologist and he had 90 00:04:35,613 --> 00:04:40,253 Speaker 3: face blindness or prosopagnosia and writes really nicely about getting 91 00:04:40,293 --> 00:04:43,693 Speaker 3: into a lift and having to apologize to the person 92 00:04:43,773 --> 00:04:46,333 Speaker 3: that he nearly stepped on and then realized it was 93 00:04:46,373 --> 00:04:48,973 Speaker 3: actually himself in the mirror that he was talking to, 94 00:04:49,053 --> 00:04:52,733 Speaker 3: but he couldn't recognize his own face, let alone anybody 95 00:04:52,773 --> 00:04:55,333 Speaker 3: else's face, so he had sort of apologized to the 96 00:04:55,373 --> 00:04:59,053 Speaker 3: stranger who was in there, but no, it was in 97 00:04:59,093 --> 00:04:59,573 Speaker 3: fact him. 98 00:04:59,893 --> 00:05:03,733 Speaker 2: So it's not like just having a bad memory for 99 00:05:04,013 --> 00:05:07,173 Speaker 2: names or faces or anything like that. This is quite distinct. 100 00:05:07,173 --> 00:05:09,853 Speaker 2: I think the way you described it about like you 101 00:05:09,853 --> 00:05:12,253 Speaker 2: can see the individual eyes, you can see the nails, 102 00:05:12,253 --> 00:05:14,133 Speaker 2: you can see the mouth, you can see the cheekbones, 103 00:05:14,173 --> 00:05:15,573 Speaker 2: but you just can't put it together. 104 00:05:15,653 --> 00:05:18,933 Speaker 3: You can't put it together. Yes, So yes, it's you know, 105 00:05:18,973 --> 00:05:20,613 Speaker 3: many of us, or some of us at least, might 106 00:05:20,693 --> 00:05:22,973 Speaker 3: say I'm not very good. I don't really not good 107 00:05:22,973 --> 00:05:27,173 Speaker 3: at remembering faces. But it's more than that. It's simply 108 00:05:27,173 --> 00:05:29,893 Speaker 3: not being able to recognize them in the first place. 109 00:05:29,973 --> 00:05:33,813 Speaker 3: So you know, an extreme example might be arriving home 110 00:05:33,853 --> 00:05:35,813 Speaker 3: from the airport. You've been on a big trip and 111 00:05:35,893 --> 00:05:38,173 Speaker 3: your wife and children are there to meet you, but 112 00:05:38,293 --> 00:05:40,653 Speaker 3: you can't pick them out in the crowd because you 113 00:05:40,693 --> 00:05:45,413 Speaker 3: can't recognize their faces. That there are ways around it 114 00:05:45,613 --> 00:05:49,133 Speaker 3: like that, you know, people get trained to use other 115 00:05:49,293 --> 00:05:53,933 Speaker 3: bits of the body for information, like you know, somebody's haircut, 116 00:05:53,973 --> 00:05:56,973 Speaker 3: although of course that can change, or the way somebody walks, 117 00:05:58,413 --> 00:06:00,813 Speaker 3: and so there are sort of way work arounds, but 118 00:06:00,853 --> 00:06:04,413 Speaker 3: that none of them are as good. And it's estimated 119 00:06:04,453 --> 00:06:07,093 Speaker 3: to effect around sort of one to two percent of 120 00:06:07,173 --> 00:06:10,813 Speaker 3: people in the population, and most of those might experience 121 00:06:10,813 --> 00:06:12,893 Speaker 3: it after they've had some sort of brain injury or 122 00:06:12,933 --> 00:06:14,173 Speaker 3: a stroke or something like that. 123 00:06:14,253 --> 00:06:17,213 Speaker 2: Right, And is there a scale, you know, like there's 124 00:06:17,213 --> 00:06:19,813 Speaker 2: some people who have it sort of really profound impacts 125 00:06:19,813 --> 00:06:22,213 Speaker 2: and some people who maybe just you know, like struggle 126 00:06:22,213 --> 00:06:23,413 Speaker 2: with expressions in that kind. 127 00:06:23,213 --> 00:06:27,213 Speaker 3: Of Yeah, yeah, there is a scale in terms of 128 00:06:27,453 --> 00:06:30,533 Speaker 3: you know, some people kick have it sort of mildly 129 00:06:30,573 --> 00:06:32,933 Speaker 3: and some people much more. But you know, still have 130 00:06:33,053 --> 00:06:37,173 Speaker 3: its fundamental bass that inability to just recognize the face 131 00:06:37,813 --> 00:06:41,173 Speaker 3: of or recognize faces full stop, doesn't matter whether it's 132 00:06:41,213 --> 00:06:44,733 Speaker 3: yours or your loved ones, and so yeah, it's a 133 00:06:44,773 --> 00:06:49,133 Speaker 3: really debilitating condition. It's very hard to I think, for 134 00:06:49,253 --> 00:06:51,533 Speaker 3: us as people who don't have it, to sort of, 135 00:06:52,533 --> 00:06:55,253 Speaker 3: you know, kind of understand or even get a sense 136 00:06:55,293 --> 00:06:56,893 Speaker 3: of it. It seems so fign. 137 00:06:57,373 --> 00:07:00,133 Speaker 2: But it's such a subconscious thing. Hey, like the way 138 00:07:00,173 --> 00:07:03,053 Speaker 2: that you that you recognize faces, obviously, but also the 139 00:07:03,053 --> 00:07:05,213 Speaker 2: way you kind of recognize expressions and stuff. You just 140 00:07:05,253 --> 00:07:05,733 Speaker 2: kin't of it. 141 00:07:05,853 --> 00:07:06,053 Speaker 1: Yeah. 142 00:07:06,133 --> 00:07:09,453 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a whole sort of second layer of processing 143 00:07:09,493 --> 00:07:12,933 Speaker 3: in your brain. So your brain gets the first messages. 144 00:07:12,973 --> 00:07:15,693 Speaker 3: So in terms of receives the messages, yes, I can 145 00:07:15,733 --> 00:07:18,533 Speaker 3: see that there's nothing wrong with my vision, but it's 146 00:07:18,933 --> 00:07:21,813 Speaker 3: in the complic or the complicated part of actually stitching 147 00:07:21,853 --> 00:07:24,213 Speaker 3: everything together in a hole. And it makes you sort 148 00:07:24,213 --> 00:07:27,053 Speaker 3: of go think about how amazing the brain must be 149 00:07:27,173 --> 00:07:30,093 Speaker 3: to do all this in the background. It's not a 150 00:07:30,173 --> 00:07:34,053 Speaker 3: simple in out sort of system. It's a very complicated system, 151 00:07:34,053 --> 00:07:36,373 Speaker 3: and if you tinker with the wiring inside, it sometimes 152 00:07:36,413 --> 00:07:37,333 Speaker 3: goes a bit offline. 153 00:07:37,613 --> 00:07:41,013 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, amazing cool. Hey, thank you so much, Google. 154 00:07:41,093 --> 00:07:44,733 Speaker 2: So thanks jos Pagnosia. Face blindness. Yeah, something I knew 155 00:07:45,053 --> 00:07:48,213 Speaker 2: zero about. So appreciate, appreciate that. Lesson this morning, Google 156 00:07:48,253 --> 00:07:50,853 Speaker 2: Sutherland from Umbrella Well Being with us. 157 00:07:50,893 --> 00:07:54,493 Speaker 1: There for more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame. Listen 158 00:07:54,573 --> 00:07:57,413 Speaker 1: live to news talks that'd be from nine am Saturday, 159 00:07:57,653 --> 00:07:59,693 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio