WEBVTT - Rugby Direct - Episode 147 0:00:09.133 --> 0:00:11.973 You're listening to a podcast from News Talks. It be 0:00:12.413 --> 0:00:16.173 follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:17.453 --> 0:00:21.733 Yet inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct 0:00:21.933 --> 0:00:24.333 with Elliott Smith, powered by News Talks. 0:00:24.333 --> 0:00:27.253 It be Welcome into Rugby Direct, power by Excess Solutions, 0:00:27.333 --> 0:00:32.413 elevating you and your business to a high level. Rugby 0:00:32.453 --> 0:00:35.373 Direct Back again for another week, this time from Chili 0:00:35.413 --> 0:00:38.653 Old Churin where it's going to snow later in the 0:00:38.693 --> 0:00:41.173 week as the All Blacks prepared to bring down the 0:00:41.293 --> 0:00:42.173 curtain on the. 0:00:42.213 --> 0:00:43.733 Twenty twenty four season. 0:00:43.773 --> 0:00:46.493 But first plenty to get stuck into from the weekend 0:00:46.733 --> 0:00:49.733 that was, and a great pleasure to be joined again 0:00:49.813 --> 0:00:53.093 by Liam Napier Chi Swarts, writer rugby correspondent for The 0:00:53.133 --> 0:00:54.413 New Zealand Hero with Liam. 0:00:54.453 --> 0:00:58.093 Greetings and welcome back to another edition of Rugby Direct. 0:00:59.293 --> 0:01:05.733 Chou Charles Eliotto. Great great to get you and very 0:01:05.773 --> 0:01:08.013 special for you to be in my homeland, so hope, 0:01:08.133 --> 0:01:11.533 so and up some pasta and some vino and the 0:01:11.573 --> 0:01:13.573 great the great people of Italy. 0:01:14.373 --> 0:01:17.693 Yep, any touch, just let me know and I'll do 0:01:17.773 --> 0:01:21.253 all this to match those look. I guess the All 0:01:21.253 --> 0:01:25.013 Blacks dream of an end of year two, unbeaten is 0:01:25.093 --> 0:01:29.693 over with that loss to France one point loss. Interesting 0:01:29.773 --> 0:01:32.293 to have a couple of days to reflect on it. Liam, 0:01:32.333 --> 0:01:33.333 how are you feeling. 0:01:32.973 --> 0:01:35.773 After that defeat? Was it an All Black's victory that 0:01:35.893 --> 0:01:36.653 got away. 0:01:37.613 --> 0:01:39.293 One hundred per cent? Was Elliott's? 0:01:40.013 --> 0:01:42.413 Look, I think this is their worst loss of the year, 0:01:42.453 --> 0:01:47.133 to be honest, it's just so deflating because they were 0:01:47.173 --> 0:01:49.213 the best team on the park and. 0:01:50.293 --> 0:01:52.813 They blew it through a number of different factors. 0:01:53.773 --> 0:01:55.613 If we start with I guess the first half and 0:01:55.653 --> 0:01:59.573 how good the All Blacks were there. They're attacking intent, 0:02:00.013 --> 0:02:03.693 their ball movements, the tri for Peter Luckeye was brilliant, 0:02:03.933 --> 0:02:05.813 out of this world in terms of the off floads, 0:02:05.853 --> 0:02:08.853 the support play, the pace that the All Blacks played with, 0:02:09.853 --> 0:02:12.173 They could have got, could have would have should have 0:02:12.213 --> 0:02:15.093 got more points for their dominance in the first half. 0:02:15.613 --> 0:02:20.133 They scrum their their lineouts which got steals of the French. 0:02:20.573 --> 0:02:23.453 They really were all over them in that first half, 0:02:23.493 --> 0:02:27.173 and then they conspired to sort of throw it away, 0:02:28.613 --> 0:02:31.333 not all through their own doing. There were some real 0:02:31.613 --> 0:02:34.853 frustrations with the officials, which I'm sure we'll touch on, 0:02:34.973 --> 0:02:38.653 but the All Black's mistakes as well, whether it was 0:02:39.213 --> 0:02:44.733 ball handling or kicking, and the failure to kick for 0:02:44.773 --> 0:02:49.613 the corner and be real ruthless with chasing that match winning. 0:02:49.373 --> 0:02:52.533 Try lets victory slip through the grass. 0:02:52.613 --> 0:02:55.893 And it is frustrating because it does color the complexion 0:02:56.373 --> 0:02:59.053 of this campaign for the All Blacks, because, as you mentioned, 0:02:59.773 --> 0:03:03.373 a clean sweep, which was unthinkable from my perspective certainly 0:03:03.413 --> 0:03:05.533 at the start of this tour, was there for the 0:03:05.613 --> 0:03:09.933 taking and now it's gone and it really does shape 0:03:10.013 --> 0:03:15.093 the narrative and change the outlook for when it is 0:03:15.173 --> 0:03:17.173 time to reflect on the full campaign. 0:03:17.733 --> 0:03:21.013 But yeah, the All Blacks were the better team. France 0:03:21.093 --> 0:03:22.173 weren't at full strength. 0:03:22.453 --> 0:03:25.453 This was a great opportunity to put another real stake 0:03:25.493 --> 0:03:27.773 in the grounds and unfortunately it slipped away. 0:03:28.413 --> 0:03:31.493 It did slip away, and the All Blacks were the 0:03:31.533 --> 0:03:34.933 better team, certainly for the first forty minutes. 0:03:34.973 --> 0:03:35.373 Anyway. 0:03:36.053 --> 0:03:38.733 I think France came back into the game really well. 0:03:38.773 --> 0:03:41.253 In fact, there was a little sign just before the 0:03:41.333 --> 0:03:44.373 halftime break where they conceded. The All Blacks conceeded that 0:03:44.493 --> 0:03:48.253 try to France, which wasn't necessarily against the run of play, 0:03:48.453 --> 0:03:51.733 but it felt like a little bit soft from an 0:03:51.733 --> 0:03:54.653 All Blacks perspective, given how hard they'd worked for their 0:03:54.693 --> 0:03:57.173 points to basically can see one down the other end, 0:03:57.613 --> 0:04:00.973 and then that attacking play just before the halftime break 0:04:01.293 --> 0:04:03.693 with a building for a period, then from memory, the 0:04:03.733 --> 0:04:05.893 ball spits out the back a little bit and they 0:04:05.893 --> 0:04:08.533 lost their train of thought a little bit with the 0:04:08.573 --> 0:04:12.693 halftime clock having ticked over, and then there was a 0:04:12.733 --> 0:04:15.253 forty to forty five meta drop goal attent from Bowden 0:04:15.333 --> 0:04:18.853 Barrett that came to nothing, and that was half time, 0:04:18.893 --> 0:04:21.933 and it just felt like it wasn't quite ruthless enough 0:04:21.933 --> 0:04:23.893 from the All Blacks in the first forty minutes. 0:04:23.933 --> 0:04:25.733 And similar to last week Ireland. 0:04:26.333 --> 0:04:28.533 In an Ireland, you know, France comes out strong in 0:04:28.573 --> 0:04:31.933 the second spell, but not similar to Dublin. The All 0:04:31.973 --> 0:04:35.653 Blacks couldn't wrestle back the momentum they did it in 0:04:35.733 --> 0:04:39.093 Dublin really well, they couldn't do it. They had it 0:04:39.093 --> 0:04:41.293 for a period of time. That bull goes to hands 0:04:41.933 --> 0:04:44.813 out to Will Jordan and rather than being kicked ahead 0:04:45.053 --> 0:04:49.893 and Louis Bielberi managers to score, and it felt like 0:04:50.013 --> 0:04:52.213 that was the real swing of the game and the 0:04:52.213 --> 0:04:55.253 All Blacks were chasing it from that point so you 0:04:55.293 --> 0:04:56.813 look at it and go there are a couple of 0:04:57.173 --> 0:05:00.653 warning signs potentially before halftime that maybe the All Blacks 0:05:01.133 --> 0:05:04.253 didn't get enough reward for their first half dominance. 0:05:05.613 --> 0:05:08.213 Yeah, indeed, And I think it was as big mo 0:05:08.733 --> 0:05:11.813 that they let slip through their graphs. You know that 0:05:11.853 --> 0:05:13.653 what they were doing so well in the first half 0:05:13.693 --> 0:05:17.133 in terms of the pace, they controlled the pace and 0:05:17.213 --> 0:05:21.253 tempo and the game was in their hands. Where in 0:05:21.293 --> 0:05:23.613 the second half, I think it became a bit of 0:05:23.653 --> 0:05:26.573 a grind, didn't it. Whether it was the All Black's 0:05:26.653 --> 0:05:31.413 rock ball and their presentation and their cleanouts weren't accurate 0:05:31.573 --> 0:05:35.133 or urgent enough, and that allowed France to get on top. 0:05:35.853 --> 0:05:40.933 And I thought the Georgian referee, I've had some frustrations 0:05:40.933 --> 0:05:43.133 with him before and I think it just becomes a 0:05:43.133 --> 0:05:46.493 bit of a lottery there. But also just France were 0:05:46.533 --> 0:05:49.373 able to put the All Blacks under pressure by slowing 0:05:49.413 --> 0:05:53.453 the game by which allows their defense to set. 0:05:54.013 --> 0:05:55.773 There was some handling issues from the All Blacks. 0:05:55.773 --> 0:05:59.373 From memory, Will Jordan passed that went high, Caleb Clarks 0:05:59.373 --> 0:06:03.533 bundled into touch, Rica Olwani drops one ball a sapphire 0:06:03.573 --> 0:06:04.573 more and miss as a throw. 0:06:06.093 --> 0:06:09.253 Cody Taylor gets pinged for a penalty at the mall. 0:06:09.773 --> 0:06:14.373 Just the discipline started to go and France were just 0:06:14.493 --> 0:06:18.653 able to get on top play their game. I thought 0:06:18.693 --> 0:06:21.893 what France did really well is they went through the 0:06:21.933 --> 0:06:24.613 middle of the All Blacks and that was through their 0:06:24.653 --> 0:06:27.173 physical forward pack. I thought they got some pay for 0:06:27.213 --> 0:06:31.293 that around the fringes, maybe the All blacksmiths. Sam Cain 0:06:32.333 --> 0:06:36.693 just his defensive work there. But also, you know, we 0:06:36.733 --> 0:06:42.373 do have to touch on the in my mind, if 0:06:43.693 --> 0:06:46.493 it's easy in hindsight, isn't it to point the finger 0:06:46.533 --> 0:06:48.653 at Scott Barret? And I don't think this is the soulary, 0:06:50.093 --> 0:06:51.773 but I do think they had to go for the 0:06:51.813 --> 0:06:54.733 line they had. Damian McKenzie came on and they kept 0:06:55.453 --> 0:06:58.453 four second half penalties, three of those in the last 0:06:58.453 --> 0:06:59.253 eighteen minutes. 0:06:59.293 --> 0:07:02.173 Now, in my mind, if Sam White Locke or. 0:07:03.653 --> 0:07:06.373 Ardie Severe as captain, I don't think there's any question 0:07:06.933 --> 0:07:08.933 that they would have at least had one crack at 0:07:08.933 --> 0:07:11.573 the line, a mall try put down a scrum where 0:07:11.573 --> 0:07:15.093 they had dominance, just at least had one go at it. 0:07:15.213 --> 0:07:18.733 And you know, I can understand the reasoning that you 0:07:19.293 --> 0:07:21.573 look to get back down there again one point game, 0:07:21.613 --> 0:07:25.053 you force a penalty and kick the winning goal. But 0:07:25.453 --> 0:07:27.733 it just felt like at that moment in the match, 0:07:27.733 --> 0:07:29.853 Sel Blacks needed to put the foot on the throat, 0:07:29.893 --> 0:07:33.013 they needed to have a go and that was I 0:07:33.053 --> 0:07:36.893 think that will be a real learning moment for Scott 0:07:36.893 --> 0:07:37.733 Barres's Captaincy. 0:07:38.013 --> 0:07:39.533 Yeah, let's hope it is. I think. 0:07:40.173 --> 0:07:43.893 Yeah, it is easy to say in hindsight because you 0:07:43.893 --> 0:07:45.453 know the score of the try, no one's going to 0:07:45.493 --> 0:07:47.413 go back and go gee. I wish they've done it 0:07:47.413 --> 0:07:53.013 in threes instead. But it felt like with the time 0:07:53.053 --> 0:07:55.893 that was left, when McKenzie set himself up for that 0:07:55.973 --> 0:07:58.333 last penalty goal, it would have been best set to 0:07:58.373 --> 0:08:03.413 go for the corner and have for the attacking line 0:08:03.413 --> 0:08:06.933 out inside the twenty two and set yourself up. 0:08:06.893 --> 0:08:11.373 The line out. Muller had a little wobble bar spy 0:08:11.453 --> 0:08:11.933 and large. 0:08:12.013 --> 0:08:13.413 You know, he had a great game at double in 0:08:13.413 --> 0:08:15.813 the week before, so you would have backed him to 0:08:16.133 --> 0:08:17.893 get to the right target. Even if they didn't, you know, 0:08:17.933 --> 0:08:21.253 France will have to presumably clear it outside the twenty two. 0:08:21.293 --> 0:08:23.173 The All Blacks should get the ball still deep inside 0:08:23.173 --> 0:08:26.453 French territory. So yeah, I think it was the wrong 0:08:26.493 --> 0:08:30.373 call I actually liked Scott Barrett actually postgame saying, you 0:08:30.573 --> 0:08:31.853 actually don't know if it was the right call or 0:08:31.893 --> 0:08:34.573 on and he was torn, and he remained torn after 0:08:34.613 --> 0:08:37.093 the game whether he made the right call in his head. 0:08:37.173 --> 0:08:41.253 I think it is a learning moment for Scott Barrett. 0:08:41.413 --> 0:08:44.413 And you know, maybe a little bit more ruthlessness required 0:08:44.413 --> 0:08:47.453 from the All Blacks not only in that decision, but 0:08:47.693 --> 0:08:51.133 across the eighty minutes and indeed perhaps even across the year. 0:08:51.173 --> 0:08:54.253 Without wanting to verge too far into season review material 0:08:54.853 --> 0:08:57.133 just yet with the game to go, but you know, 0:08:57.213 --> 0:09:00.853 the ruthlessness that the All Blacks teams in the past 0:09:00.973 --> 0:09:04.613 have had, just little bits missing from the team at 0:09:04.613 --> 0:09:07.453 the moment. There's certainly plenty of attack, but an endeavor 0:09:07.893 --> 0:09:10.853 just that ruthlessness in the twenty two and on attack 0:09:10.973 --> 0:09:11.853 is missing at the moment. 0:09:13.053 --> 0:09:16.373 That's right, and it stuck for them in the first 0:09:16.453 --> 0:09:20.493 half those passes, but the French were able to slow 0:09:20.573 --> 0:09:23.613 the pace, make it a grind and then just pounce 0:09:23.653 --> 0:09:26.453 on the All Blacks mistakes and a couple of those 0:09:26.453 --> 0:09:29.413 in particular that we need to touch on. You know, 0:09:29.493 --> 0:09:33.973 Courtiers Lastima's performance off the bench as in the spotlights. 0:09:34.213 --> 0:09:37.773 He got pained for taking too long at the ruck 0:09:37.853 --> 0:09:43.973 trying to do a box kick, which was a fifty 0:09:43.973 --> 0:09:46.973 to fifty decision. I don't think that was fairly policed 0:09:47.013 --> 0:09:50.373 across the whole game. And then there was a tough 0:09:50.413 --> 0:09:56.093 line out throw that he lost as well off the 0:09:56.133 --> 0:10:00.653 top ball. And my question to you is do the 0:10:00.653 --> 0:10:02.613 All Blacks need to be a wee bit more flexible 0:10:02.653 --> 0:10:07.453 about the introduction of their bench because we talked last 0:10:07.453 --> 0:10:10.573 week and I also wrote something that they have flipped 0:10:10.613 --> 0:10:13.133 the script on their bench because they had the final 0:10:13.213 --> 0:10:16.053 quarter fades and the Rugby Championship. But then we saw 0:10:16.053 --> 0:10:19.933 it Twickenham and in Dublin the bench making a massive impact. 0:10:21.053 --> 0:10:22.933 They went They went to the bench quite late in 0:10:22.973 --> 0:10:26.213 this game. They only introduced the front rowers with about 0:10:26.213 --> 0:10:28.373 eighteen minutes remaining. 0:10:28.813 --> 0:10:30.773 Patrick Tuo Polocho was a wee bit before that. 0:10:30.813 --> 0:10:34.173 But cam Roygate in particular, he's out playing one of, 0:10:34.293 --> 0:10:36.853 if not the best players in the world in Anton DuPont, 0:10:36.893 --> 0:10:41.293 playing out of his skin. Again, It's easy in hindsight, 0:10:41.373 --> 0:10:43.373 isn't it to look back and say you shouldn't have 0:10:43.413 --> 0:10:43.973 replaced him. 0:10:43.973 --> 0:10:45.493 But what's what's your view on that? 0:10:45.773 --> 0:10:46.653 Well, I thought it was early. 0:10:46.733 --> 0:10:49.293 Yeah, I thought it was early when they substituted him, 0:10:49.333 --> 0:10:51.893 given the way that he'd been playing, and didn't sound 0:10:51.973 --> 0:10:54.253 like there are any injuries. Obviously he is coming back 0:10:54.293 --> 0:10:58.933 from an injury. Certainly postgame there was nothing of the 0:10:58.973 --> 0:11:02.533 sort mentioned. So I think it was too early, and 0:11:02.613 --> 0:11:05.013 I think, you know, I feel the All Blacks. You 0:11:05.053 --> 0:11:07.053 need to keep your best players out in the field 0:11:07.053 --> 0:11:08.893 for as long as possible, and even if it's in 0:11:08.933 --> 0:11:12.773 a half back role where buying large you know, players 0:11:12.733 --> 0:11:15.653 are substituted late in the game because it is a 0:11:15.653 --> 0:11:19.653 position that requires and demands a lot of you. I 0:11:19.693 --> 0:11:21.653 think you need to be a little bit more flexible 0:11:22.053 --> 0:11:25.453 around that and getting you know, even seventy minutes out 0:11:25.453 --> 0:11:27.133 of the Cambroy Guard, the way that he was playing, 0:11:27.173 --> 0:11:29.093 if he could get to that point, would have been 0:11:29.573 --> 0:11:31.733 maybe a bit of a difference maker in that game. 0:11:32.573 --> 0:11:34.893 You know, often you see them change the halfbacks to 0:11:35.893 --> 0:11:37.973 change the tempo of the game. Well, I think Camboy 0:11:38.013 --> 0:11:40.173 Guard was setting the tempo of that game and went 0:11:40.213 --> 0:11:43.813 a little bit backwards when Cortez Razima came on the park. 0:11:43.893 --> 0:11:46.613 So I think that is still a learning curve. We 0:11:46.653 --> 0:11:49.653 talk about learning curves for Scott robertson of Scott Barrett. 0:11:49.653 --> 0:11:52.213 That's one for Scott Robinson. Just around the bench and 0:11:52.293 --> 0:11:57.773 how best to deploy those players. French went in with 0:11:57.813 --> 0:12:00.453 a six to two bench, which meant that they had 0:12:00.453 --> 0:12:02.733 a reserve halfback. But and do Pop moved out to 0:12:02.853 --> 0:12:07.573 ten late in the game when Ligorak came on the park. 0:12:07.413 --> 0:12:10.493 So you know that was slightly different. 0:12:10.533 --> 0:12:12.213 But they kept too pinned out there for the full 0:12:12.213 --> 0:12:14.733 eighty minutes because they know the impact that he has 0:12:14.773 --> 0:12:16.533 on a game. Well, you know, to be honest, Cam 0:12:16.613 --> 0:12:18.813 royguard in this All Blacks team at the moment. I 0:12:18.853 --> 0:12:20.573 know he's only just come back, but he's providing some 0:12:20.693 --> 0:12:23.013 of the sparks, so surely you wund out him out there. 0:12:23.813 --> 0:12:25.373 He's a hell of a fit athlete, he got that 0:12:25.413 --> 0:12:27.813 Bronco test earlier in the year before that injury. 0:12:28.613 --> 0:12:30.253 Out there as long as possible. 0:12:30.733 --> 0:12:32.933 Yeah, I totally agree, And I think half back, while 0:12:33.173 --> 0:12:37.573 it is a very anaerobic position, you're doing a lot 0:12:37.573 --> 0:12:38.053 of running. 0:12:38.413 --> 0:12:40.453 If you think back to Aaron Smith, he used to 0:12:40.453 --> 0:12:41.333 play massive minutes. 0:12:41.373 --> 0:12:44.093 The World Cup Final, he played seventy eight odd minutes 0:12:44.133 --> 0:12:47.253 before you know, Finlay Christie came off the bench and 0:12:47.813 --> 0:12:50.093 just on that, you know, I think it really does 0:12:50.253 --> 0:12:53.253 show the folly of that decision in the World Cup 0:12:53.333 --> 0:12:57.573 knockout games that cam Roygard wasn't on the bench for 0:12:57.573 --> 0:13:01.413 those knockout fixtures. But cam Roygard, as you mentioned with 0:13:01.493 --> 0:13:03.693 the Bronco Test, he's one of the fittest in the 0:13:03.733 --> 0:13:06.853 All Blacks. I think he was playing exceptionally well. You know, 0:13:06.893 --> 0:13:09.653 he picked the pock for that tri a thief in 0:13:09.693 --> 0:13:14.333 the Paris Knight. Brilliant piece of individual play there. But 0:13:14.453 --> 0:13:19.413 also just his ability. His size is underrated, but you 0:13:19.453 --> 0:13:21.333 know everyone looks at his running game and his big 0:13:21.413 --> 0:13:24.653 left boot, but the All Blacks rap presentation as a 0:13:24.733 --> 0:13:27.253 touched on before has not been great in the past 0:13:27.253 --> 0:13:30.453 two weeks and canroy Guard copes with that very well. 0:13:30.453 --> 0:13:33.253 Because of his size, he's able to shake off defenders, 0:13:33.293 --> 0:13:37.173 he doesn't get too rattled there, and he was dealing 0:13:37.173 --> 0:13:41.173 with that French pressure and you know, making good decisions. 0:13:41.213 --> 0:13:43.093 So I would have left him out there a lot 0:13:43.213 --> 0:13:43.893 a lot longer. 0:13:44.053 --> 0:13:47.493 As you mentioned, upon played the full eighty minutes jameson 0:13:47.493 --> 0:13:50.693 Gibson Park another huge influence for Ireland. He often plays 0:13:50.773 --> 0:13:53.973 eighty minutes, so it is common for half backs to 0:13:53.973 --> 0:13:56.493 play big minutes, so I think the All Blacks botched 0:13:56.573 --> 0:13:57.813 that that change. 0:13:58.053 --> 0:14:00.973 Yeah, quarters, Racham has had a good season on his 0:14:01.093 --> 0:14:03.693 rookie year for the All Blacks, but just Fils over 0:14:03.693 --> 0:14:05.613 the last two or three weeks has been a few 0:14:05.653 --> 0:14:10.013 things that he needs some prove on heading into twenty 0:14:10.093 --> 0:14:12.693 twenty five, and that comes with every position. I'm sure 0:14:13.413 --> 0:14:16.373 on the park, let's talk before we wrap up around 0:14:16.413 --> 0:14:19.133 the refereeing and both put the boot in too much. 0:14:19.293 --> 0:14:25.493 But Nika Amisha Kelly. Again, the issue for me with 0:14:25.533 --> 0:14:28.013 World Rugb at the moment is there are not enough 0:14:28.053 --> 0:14:30.893 good referees to go around. I think that's plain and 0:14:30.973 --> 0:14:34.573 simple the truth. At the moment, there are referees that 0:14:34.573 --> 0:14:37.613 have been elevated too early. If you're in the UK, 0:14:37.773 --> 0:14:40.413 you tend to get elevated on that path very early. 0:14:40.453 --> 0:14:43.773 But they clearly want referees from around the merging nations. 0:14:43.773 --> 0:14:47.533 That's why they've got Nika Amisha Kelly. He's had a 0:14:47.573 --> 0:14:49.893 couple of All Blacks tests previously and other tests around 0:14:49.893 --> 0:14:53.293 the globe. I think he struggled with the pace that 0:14:53.373 --> 0:14:56.173 both teams are wanting to play at and made some 0:14:56.253 --> 0:15:02.453 curious decisions, aided by his TMO that you had a 0:15:02.453 --> 0:15:04.573 big influence on the game, the offer tong of Faci 0:15:04.653 --> 0:15:07.053 nick Roll. While it's been three days, I'm still struggling 0:15:07.053 --> 0:15:09.213 to see where exactly that was. And there were some 0:15:09.293 --> 0:15:12.333 other ones as well. He seemed unwilling to reward the 0:15:12.373 --> 0:15:15.693 all Blacks at scrum time, just didn't seem to want 0:15:15.733 --> 0:15:17.773 to go near it. He gave one penalty and then 0:15:18.013 --> 0:15:21.413 basically washed his hands of the whole affair. So I 0:15:21.413 --> 0:15:23.053 don't want us to be seen as a criticism of 0:15:23.133 --> 0:15:25.573 him necessarily, But I think the big issue with World 0:15:25.613 --> 0:15:27.893 Rugby at the moment is the rulebook is too complicated. 0:15:28.173 --> 0:15:30.213 There are very few referees who can keep up with 0:15:30.253 --> 0:15:32.773 it and manage a game, which is essentially what they 0:15:32.813 --> 0:15:35.493 have been tasked with as managing these games as well 0:15:35.533 --> 0:15:39.653 as refereeing it. And now you've got referees that are 0:15:39.653 --> 0:15:42.733 elevated above their station too early, and I think that's 0:15:43.213 --> 0:15:45.693 partly why there are so many issues around it at 0:15:45.693 --> 0:15:46.053 the moment. 0:15:47.373 --> 0:15:49.973 Yeah, that was a massive issue, and I do agree 0:15:50.013 --> 0:15:52.813 about the standard of international refereeing on the whole seene 0:15:53.333 --> 0:15:56.493 some very experienced referees, Wayne Barnes and the light move 0:15:56.533 --> 0:16:00.653 on in recent years and the standard has dipped quite significantly. 0:16:00.773 --> 0:16:02.093 And I also agree. 0:16:01.773 --> 0:16:07.373 That there's a desire from World Rugby to promote these 0:16:07.413 --> 0:16:10.013 guys on the basis that you want to cross section 0:16:10.093 --> 0:16:14.613 of countries and as you mentioned, emerging nations. But there 0:16:14.693 --> 0:16:17.493 there's always a bit of a lottery when he's in charge. 0:16:17.773 --> 0:16:20.653 It's hard to escape that. And I don't think he 0:16:20.693 --> 0:16:22.813 should be getting these big tests at this stage in 0:16:22.853 --> 0:16:27.213 his career. Maybe he'll improve, but I don't think he's 0:16:27.213 --> 0:16:29.773 there yet. And yeah, that neck role in the context 0:16:29.773 --> 0:16:33.533 of that result, that was a terrible decision. That is 0:16:33.613 --> 0:16:37.413 such a fifty to fifty call for the TMO to 0:16:37.453 --> 0:16:40.773 intervene the scrum as well. Yeah, the All Blacks are 0:16:40.853 --> 0:16:45.173 very dominant, pushing the French back and they weren't called 0:16:45.213 --> 0:16:49.653 So that was definitely a contributing factor. It wasn't the 0:16:49.693 --> 0:16:51.693 sole reason the All Blacks lost, but I think behind 0:16:51.693 --> 0:16:55.613 closed doors there will be a lot of frustrations. Now, 0:16:55.693 --> 0:16:58.853 now look, you know we've been reasonably critical, I guess 0:16:58.853 --> 0:17:02.893 on the whole, but what about some of the individual performances, 0:17:03.093 --> 0:17:05.333 for you, Elliott, for the All Blacks, one guy in particular, 0:17:05.373 --> 0:17:07.573 Peter Luckeye comes off. 0:17:07.413 --> 0:17:08.893 The bench and has set can test. 0:17:09.373 --> 0:17:13.013 I was very vocal about the fact that I wanted 0:17:13.213 --> 0:17:16.893 this guy, twenty one year old prospects been playing out 0:17:16.933 --> 0:17:18.973 of his skin in the NPC and Super Ragby for 0:17:18.973 --> 0:17:21.893 a couple of years. I wanted him in the squad 0:17:21.933 --> 0:17:23.853 from the outset. He only got called up because the 0:17:23.933 --> 0:17:30.493 injuries comes on play seventy eight minutes outstanding, EF it 0:17:30.613 --> 0:17:32.733 wasn't it? And some others for you. 0:17:33.133 --> 0:17:34.013 Yeah, he was excellent. 0:17:34.253 --> 0:17:37.493 Very impressed by him coming and you know, one minute 0:17:37.533 --> 0:17:40.213 forty five into the game, playing the reas much longer 0:17:40.213 --> 0:17:42.293 than he would have expected. I thought he was superb 0:17:42.333 --> 0:17:44.933 and that bodes really really well for the makeup of 0:17:44.933 --> 0:17:47.653 that loose Ford trio comes twenty twenty five. Is going 0:17:47.693 --> 0:17:49.533 to be interesting to see how that all shakes down 0:17:49.773 --> 0:17:54.573 and which position each player finds themselves in. We just 0:17:54.613 --> 0:17:57.173 mentioned the scrum, but I thought to Maati Williams was excellent, 0:17:57.213 --> 0:18:01.253 probably his best test for mine. You know, there's been 0:18:01.293 --> 0:18:05.053 a lot of conjecture back home around where Ethan de 0:18:05.093 --> 0:18:07.173 Groot's gone through. Well we know where he went to 0:18:07.293 --> 0:18:10.533 for England out of the team stood down, but time 0:18:10.613 --> 0:18:13.133 to put some respect onto Mudy William's name because he 0:18:13.213 --> 0:18:16.973 was excellent again and he was the previous week as well, 0:18:17.213 --> 0:18:19.053 and I thought it was his best test. Didn't get 0:18:19.053 --> 0:18:21.613 rewarded necessarily the penalties at scrum time, but I thought 0:18:21.613 --> 0:18:25.653 he was superb. Cam Royguard obviously, as we touched on before, 0:18:25.693 --> 0:18:28.933 I thought was a tet as at that point where 0:18:29.373 --> 0:18:33.013 he's not having bad tests, he's everywhere and rdisav I 0:18:33.013 --> 0:18:35.373 thought was his best test and a few tests as well. 0:18:35.453 --> 0:18:37.733 So a lot to like actually from the All Blacks. 0:18:37.773 --> 0:18:41.173 And here's the thing Liam, my dad messaged me after 0:18:41.213 --> 0:18:43.253 the game and he made a very good point and 0:18:43.373 --> 0:18:45.813 he said, if the All Blacks before the tour, you know, 0:18:46.813 --> 0:18:48.733 would win two of those big games and lose the 0:18:48.773 --> 0:18:50.693 other one by one, I think most people would have 0:18:50.773 --> 0:18:51.213 taken it. 0:18:51.333 --> 0:18:51.813 Would you have? 0:18:53.333 --> 0:18:54.053 Yeah? I would have. 0:18:54.453 --> 0:18:56.773 It is a good point. I think both of us 0:18:56.973 --> 0:19:01.413 predicted that'd go. They dropped one test on the tour, 0:19:01.533 --> 0:19:04.693 and as I mentioned last part, I think he really 0:19:04.733 --> 0:19:06.973 struck some form in the tipping department because he said 0:19:06.973 --> 0:19:07.813 that beat Island. 0:19:07.813 --> 0:19:10.733 I said that to Ireland. You said they lose to France. 0:19:10.773 --> 0:19:13.293 I said they beat Front So yeah, who knows you 0:19:13.373 --> 0:19:17.013 might be able to flip the script and carry that momentum. 0:19:17.013 --> 0:19:20.293 But on the context of this tour, I think on 0:19:20.373 --> 0:19:23.533 the provisor that they do beat Italy and put out 0:19:24.813 --> 0:19:26.333 a comprehensive performance there. 0:19:27.413 --> 0:19:28.133 It's been. 0:19:29.613 --> 0:19:32.333 Surprising, I think from the All Blacks, but there is 0:19:32.413 --> 0:19:34.573 context to that as well. They could have easily dropped 0:19:34.573 --> 0:19:39.813 that England test, So there is improvement. There is evolution 0:19:39.933 --> 0:19:42.213 from this all Black team, but it's just it is 0:19:42.293 --> 0:19:45.653 frustrating that they let that test slip because it was 0:19:45.693 --> 0:19:47.693 there for the taking. Just one other player that you 0:19:47.973 --> 0:19:51.533 didn't mention, Caleb Clark. I think he was outstanding on 0:19:51.573 --> 0:19:55.053 the left wing, made big meters with every touch, seems 0:19:55.053 --> 0:19:57.973 to be getting involved a lot, and he's a guy 0:19:57.973 --> 0:20:00.933 that wasn't really in the picture, you know a year ago, 0:20:01.133 --> 0:20:05.133 struggled to crack this all Black team. So he cemented 0:20:05.173 --> 0:20:07.173 that left wing role. And I think we also saw 0:20:07.853 --> 0:20:12.253 Mark Tale. His absence was massive and the loyalty I think, 0:20:12.293 --> 0:20:16.253 and severa Reese has been misplaced. He got that one 0:20:16.293 --> 0:20:19.293 incept but then lacked pace and then for the runaway 0:20:19.293 --> 0:20:25.053 trier for France that was very stark hit. Severa Reese's 0:20:25.133 --> 0:20:27.733 lack of pace and just how blitzed he got, so 0:20:27.933 --> 0:20:31.853 I think interesting to see where that goes. But Mark 0:20:31.853 --> 0:20:35.573 de Lea's absence on the right wing really felt and 0:20:35.693 --> 0:20:38.013 Artie Severe as you mentioned, back to his back to 0:20:38.053 --> 0:20:41.293 the future, wasn't it going reverting to open soide flanker 0:20:41.813 --> 0:20:44.693 roaming the wide channels. He had a big influence in 0:20:44.733 --> 0:20:49.733 Peter Luckeye's opening try busting tackles. So the composition of 0:20:49.773 --> 0:20:52.413 that loose for trio very intriguing going forward. 0:20:52.853 --> 0:20:56.853