Speaker 1: Kilda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Auckland's CBD
Speaker 2: should be at its brightest right now, but this Christmas
Speaker 2: season has exposed just how far the city has slipped.
Speaker 2: The former Smith and Coe's Building, once the center of
Speaker 2: Auckland's festive traditions, with its iconic window displays and enchanted forest,
Speaker 2: now sits dark Across the CBD, retail spending is down, site,
Speaker 2: vacancy rates are up, and the district has been plagued
Speaker 2: by stalled developments and empty lots. But could a new
Speaker 2: life for Auckland be on the horizon. The long awaited
Speaker 2: city rail link is expected to open next year, and Seascape,
Speaker 2: the country's tallest residential tower, is resuming struction after a
Speaker 2: series of delays. Today on the Front Page ends at Herald,
Speaker 2: Property editor An Gibson joins us to unpack what's really
Speaker 2: happening in the heart of Auckland and whether we might
Speaker 2: see a Christmas miracle for the city of Sales. First off,
Speaker 2: and anyone visiting Auckland's CBD can attest that there seems
Speaker 2: to be a lot of retail vacancies. You walk down
Speaker 2: to Queen Street, for example, and there's you know, every
Speaker 2: second shop's got a four lease sign in the window.
Speaker 2: But that's just anecdotal, that's just me walking down Queen Street.
Speaker 2: What does the data actually say?
Speaker 1: In May, Baileys did a study of the CBD retail
Speaker 1: area of Auckland and what they found was that thirteen
Speaker 1: percent of it as vacant. Now that was actually down
Speaker 1: on what it had been it had been last year
Speaker 1: sixteen percent, but still, you know, in other parts of
Speaker 1: New Zealand it's not as high as that, and the
Speaker 1: suburban areas of Auckland. A note that, for example, the
Speaker 1: vacancy red on the North Shore and retail is only
Speaker 1: five percent, West Auckland two point eight, the Auckland Metropolitan
Speaker 1: Area wider area four point three, in South Auckland only
Speaker 1: three point one. So the CBD's been really hard all
Speaker 1: the factors we know about, including COVID and CRL and
Speaker 1: many other combinations of hell for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but in terms of have you been into the
Speaker 2: CBD lately, I mean we work kind of close to it,
Speaker 2: but really, have you gone to Queen Street to pick
Speaker 2: up something?
Speaker 1: I have to go there yeah, but two months ago,
Speaker 1: maybe I wouldn't linger put it that way. It doesn't
Speaker 1: draw me, it doesn't attract me. I'm interested in it
Speaker 1: because I write about the buildings, and buildings are really important,
Speaker 1: but as a retail experience doesn't do it for me.
Speaker 2: We spoke earlier this year and went through some of
Speaker 2: the major sites that are sitting empty in Auckland. Give
Speaker 2: me a bit of a refresh. What were they and
Speaker 2: anything changed within the last few months.
Speaker 1: Yes. In my August Property inside a column, I wrote
Speaker 1: about the vacant lots, the buildings that are derelict or
Speaker 1: look abandoned, or where plans were hatched but never actually fulfilled.
Speaker 1: Places like the food Alley on Albert Street, which is
Speaker 1: an entire block where the old Yates building stood and
Speaker 1: that is owned by Singaporeans. Now it's all fenced off
Speaker 1: and it's just literally a vacant lot, and there are
Speaker 1: plans for that but they haven't come to any fruition.
Speaker 1: So that hasn't changed. Those two big sites that have
Speaker 1: been vacant for nearly forty years now, so that's the
Speaker 1: Royal International Hotel on Elliott Street and the ex Auckland
Speaker 1: Star site in between Fort Street and Shortland Street. So
Speaker 1: I had contact James Callo from New Zealand Mortgages and Securities.
Speaker 1: They said to me, sat in line, we're getting closer
Speaker 1: to Suva than Sydney. Now, I thought that was actually
Speaker 1: not a bad summation. Unfortunately, I identified about twelve big moribund, vacant, empty,
Speaker 1: undeveloped or plans not happening sites and so I haven't
Speaker 1: seen any big changes. There's been nothing that's occurred since
Speaker 1: I wrote that in August to those sites.
Speaker 2: And that's a really good line as well, more like
Speaker 2: Suva than Sydney, because Auckland does kind of fancy itself
Speaker 2: as the Sydney of New Zealand, doesn't it. That's where
Speaker 2: you go for the big jobs, That's where you go
Speaker 2: for the big money, you know.
Speaker 1: But when I say that, James Callow meant more like
Speaker 1: a Suva than Sydney, and meaning that in a bad way.
Speaker 1: He was really talking about the way, the direction or
Speaker 1: the way that the CBD is looking at the moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just because it's not suber is not ever
Speaker 2: going to be a thriving metropolis. New York's and your
Speaker 2: London's and your Sydney's. Obviously it's still a beautiful place,
Speaker 2: but it's just not what business people are aspiring to.
Speaker 1: I suppose it was quite derogatory, quite a derogatory comment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just as a consumer, Black Friday felt a bit
Speaker 2: different this year. So on one hand, I was bombarded
Speaker 2: with the ads and the offers and up to sixty
Speaker 2: percent off et cetera, et cetera. But that's another podcast entirely,
Speaker 2: isn't it about how good Black Friday actually is nowadays?
Speaker 2: But I also thought, yeah, a lot of people complaining
Speaker 2: about they're not being good enough deals. They're saying that
Speaker 2: they're not partaking this year at all because of the
Speaker 2: cost of living crisis coming up to Christmas as well.
Speaker 2: It's not really like it used to be. Has there
Speaker 2: been a reduction in retail spending overall?
Speaker 1: Yes, well, you're right. Black Friday didn't turn out to
Speaker 1: be the great hope for retailers that it was anticipated
Speaker 1: to be. And in fact, the non food good spending
Speaker 1: was down this year six point two percent, so we're
Speaker 1: not seeing that big rebound. And this is this slightly
Speaker 1: moribun state of the economy at the moment, where the
Speaker 1: construction sector is really still in the downturn. We've got
Speaker 1: very high unemployment and I have a number of friends
Speaker 1: who are looking for jobs keeping an eye on what's
Speaker 1: going on. I've tried to help some. It's really tough.
Speaker 1: I know one person who's applied for I think nearly
Speaker 1: eighty jobs now. And if you're on a winds benefit,
Speaker 1: you have to proactively seek work. You can't just do nothing,
Speaker 1: and so that's really tough.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Despite the fact that interest rates have come down, it
Speaker 1: hasn't fired up our economy. My colleaguelium Dan writes about
Speaker 1: green shirts, but as he wrote the other day, you
Speaker 1: can't eat green shoots, you know. So cost of living,
Speaker 1: high unemployment, low economic growth and low confidence is really
Speaker 1: serious issues for the New Zealand economy. And I think
Speaker 1: we're all hoping that twenty twenty six will be a better.
Speaker 2: Year because we had the thrive in twenty twenty five
Speaker 2: or survive until twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: I wonder what.
Speaker 2: Rhymes with twenty twenty six?
Speaker 1: What can we kind oftically? And also was saying to
Speaker 1: Liam the other day, what is this big downturn in
Speaker 1: New Zealand? Called like we had the GFC and you know,
Speaker 1: we know about the I don't know the different downturns.
Speaker 1: I've usually got names the sharmarket pressure of the eighties.
Speaker 1: But I said to what was this one called? And
Speaker 1: he said, it doesn't officially have a name. And then
Speaker 1: of course I consulted AI, as all good journalists do
Speaker 1: these days, and it said that New Zealand's economy was
Speaker 1: actually different to the economies of a lot of other countries,
Speaker 1: so there was no global name for this big downturn
Speaker 1: that we were in at the moment, because guess what,
Speaker 1: not global.
Speaker 3: So you've come down today for the sale? How often
Speaker 3: did you come to Smith and Cohen? Probably definitely for Christmas,
Speaker 3: but alternative other times as well, you know, just whenever
Speaker 3: we were in the location. But it's just so sad
Speaker 3: that it's going. It's just the icon, isn't it. Being
Speaker 3: English and used to big old shops like this. New
Speaker 3: Zealand only has this one, so it's you know, it's
Speaker 3: really sad that it's going.
Speaker 2: Going back to Queen Street. I'm going to take us
Speaker 2: back there. It's really going to miss Smith and Coey's
Speaker 2: this Christmas, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It's very sad And even that center that was on
Speaker 1: the side of the old witch call spots. I miss him, yeah,
Speaker 1: on the corner of Queen of Victoria Street. Well, he
Speaker 1: was retired. His last year was evidently twenty nineteen. Now
Speaker 1: the amazing family, the Mensins, who are so influential in
Speaker 1: terms of development in Auckland, they funded Center I think
Speaker 1: in about twenty fourteen for three years. But now he's
Speaker 1: somewhere down south I think because Heart of the city
Speaker 1: said that he was costing something like two hundred thousand
Speaker 1: dollars a year to put up. But back to Smith
Speaker 1: and Coey's right, so the board decided enough of Center.
Speaker 1: The board decided in duringe to sell that property. Well,
Speaker 1: so they've got two properties, They've got the Queen Street
Speaker 1: one and one on Bolbone new Market. So they took
Speaker 1: the decision, talked to Peter Alexandra about this to actually
Speaker 1: sell it and they place the property with the number
Speaker 1: of agencies. Now we yet to hear of anything as
Speaker 1: I understand it. The new Market property has sold. But
Speaker 1: there's a demolition specialist firm called rip it Out New
Speaker 1: Zealand and in mid July they were on social media
Speaker 1: picture removing fixtures and fittings in the lovely old ground
Speaker 1: floor where they sold so many cosmetics, and the wonderful
Speaker 1: men's clothing area, and you know all those great memories
Speaker 1: that I think we have of Smith and Coey's, which,
Speaker 1: as you say, such a begin institution in all right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we don't know what the plans are for
Speaker 2: the Queen Street Smith and Colley's side, because it is
Speaker 2: an iconic building.
Speaker 1: Theres people talk about things like maybe a language school
Speaker 1: or offices or actually a few people have mentioned the
Speaker 1: idea of converting it into apartments because I think it
Speaker 1: is a heritage building, so you know, not far away,
Speaker 1: John Love of Loving Company turned the original civic administration
Speaker 1: building into apartments. That's an eighteen level structure. The very
Speaker 1: expensive job, but very beautiful result. And John loved something
Speaker 1: really interesting. He actually sought to patronize New Zealand businesses.
Speaker 1: So the windows come from thermosash and the appliances I
Speaker 1: think a Fisher and pikel and he went out to
Speaker 1: be a patriot and do something quite different in terms
Speaker 1: of that building. That's the largest office to residential conversion
Speaker 1: in New Zealand.
Speaker 2: Do we just need to move on from this idea
Speaker 2: of needing to shop in the city or go into
Speaker 2: the CBD, or you know, just that mentality and just
Speaker 2: accept that city life has changed, it's not the hub
Speaker 2: that it used to be, and just deal with it.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I find it really interesting the Ikea
Speaker 1: opening and the big focus on that a regional hub,
Speaker 1: you know, Sylvia Park, and also the huge popularity of
Speaker 1: Costco Now. I think Nicola Willison announced when the cost
Speaker 1: Covers announced for Drury that there are two hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty thousand members of Costco in New Zealand. Now those
Speaker 1: people are all paying sixty dollars annual subscription. So I
Speaker 1: think I think you're right to some extent, the CBD
Speaker 1: is not what it was, although we have to remember
Speaker 1: big precincts of it like Commercial Bay and Scott Pritchard
Speaker 1: and precinct properties who have done the most outstanding job
Speaker 1: of converting that area of the waterfront, but also like
Speaker 1: Peter Cooper and Cooper and Company and Matthew Cochran, the
Speaker 1: CEO with Britomart, which again is outstanding. So we have
Speaker 1: that real mixture. You know, we're talking about Smith and Coe's,
Speaker 1: but if you go down near the waterfront and look
Speaker 1: at those two precincts. They're very different. You could be
Speaker 1: in a totally different city right when you're I don't know,
Speaker 1: walking past the beautiful Tiffany's store and Britomart and Tikomitt
Speaker 1: Dounga Square and you know, just outside Commercial Bay, they
Speaker 1: are very beautiful. And also the CPO has been refurbished
Speaker 1: and that's owned by Cooper and co and facing Te
Speaker 1: committed Tonguel Square, and that's a very different experience, right,
Speaker 1: and it's somehow very indigenous with the way that they've integrated,
Speaker 1: you know, the use of native plants and landscaping, the
Speaker 1: hard landscaping, the colors, the design, the thoughtfulness and guess what,
Speaker 1: there's a giant Christmas tree down there. At the moment
Speaker 1: as I understand it, I've not seen it myself.
Speaker 2: Oh that was going to be my next question. I know,
Speaker 2: maybe we should go down there. So in terms of that,
Speaker 2: that makes that what you say to me there and
Speaker 2: what I think of Brittemart and in Commercial Bay and
Speaker 2: the thoughtfulness behind that, that's what makes New Zealand special,
Speaker 2: right is that thoughtfulness and that patriotism to our roots
Speaker 2: and the design and architecture of it all. Do we
Speaker 2: need that for Queen Street.
Speaker 1: Well, it's just extraordinary when you think. You know, precinct
Speaker 1: properties are billion dollars on Commercial Bay and by the way,
Speaker 1: they haven't finished. They've got two very big towers up
Speaker 1: to I think fifty six levels or more that will
Speaker 1: be the tallest in New Zealand of the book when
Speaker 1: they're book. And also Britamark Peter Cooper's vision of taking
Speaker 1: eighteen run down, gyrelict old industrial warehouses populated by pigeons
Speaker 1: and rats and a terrible straight and turning that into
Speaker 1: the wonderful britom Ark precinct. What a vision that man has. Yes,
Speaker 1: so how can you spread that?
Speaker 2: See?
Speaker 1: I think what makes those two precincts really special is
Speaker 1: the waterfront location of them as well. And also you
Speaker 1: have to pay tribute to Auckland Transport and the vision
Speaker 1: to convert that part of Key Street. So Key Street
Speaker 1: four Lane Highway was a thoroughfare very like I don't know,
Speaker 1: if you've been to San Francisco and got off the
Speaker 1: ferry there and tried to get into the Cebeach I have, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: so you walk across the motorway, right, Yeah, Well that's
Speaker 1: what Key Street used to be a little bit light, right,
Speaker 1: And then I think that the vision that occurred there
Speaker 1: is just outstanding and it really changes the city, and
Speaker 1: it gives a completely different face to the city, for say,
Speaker 1: the visitors on cruise ships. You know, it really is
Speaker 1: outstanding what they've done. Wouldn't it be great if that
Speaker 1: could be moved further up the street, you say, But
Speaker 1: then you're getting away from the water work.
Speaker 2: I know it's that hard cell that Queen Street is.
Speaker 3: I need more jeanes?
Speaker 2: Fine, let's go.
Speaker 3: Slack awes.
Speaker 1: So I never lend.
Speaker 2: I've heard these ads for the City Rail Link, right,
Speaker 2: everyone's obviously getting excited for it opening next year, and
Speaker 2: I hear these ads being like, you could be at
Speaker 2: your home looking at a pair of jeans on your
Speaker 2: phone and be at Karangahabe Road in twenty minutes on
Speaker 2: the CRL, and I kind of my first reaction was, well,
Speaker 2: I can buy those jeans online, number one. Number two,
Speaker 2: Why would I go into the city at all when
Speaker 2: I can go and get those genes at Newmarket or
Speaker 2: even Sylvia Park or something like that. But obviously there
Speaker 2: is this push to bring people back and that suggestion
Speaker 2: of yes you can, it's not long. You don't have
Speaker 2: to look around for parking, you don't have to pay
Speaker 2: for parking in the CBD because you've got the CRL
Speaker 2: and the convenience of it. Do you think that that's
Speaker 2: going to breathe new life into the city.
Speaker 1: Well, I think we've got three things that are pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: We've got the CRL, We've got the New Zealand International
Speaker 1: Convention Center, and there is also the very big apartment
Speaker 1: to our seascape. Now take one of those alone. For example,
Speaker 1: with the CRL, the projection is nineteen thousand passengers in
Speaker 1: the peak hour per hour.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: That is slightly down from the original twenty seven thousand
Speaker 1: projection according to my colleague Bernard Oorsman, but still that
Speaker 1: number of people. So cities really thrived when there are
Speaker 1: lots of people. That's what they need to bring them alive.
Speaker 1: So I think your point's a really good one. Seascape
Speaker 1: yet to be finished with. I don't know whether Icon
Speaker 1: Apparent it doesn't seem to have signed the contract with
Speaker 1: Shaundi Customs to come in there, but there are evidently
Speaker 1: people working on the site at the moment and the
Speaker 1: ends that ice see the media open day in late
Speaker 1: November and seeing inside there for the first time, and
Speaker 1: you know the number of people who could come in there.
Speaker 1: You know, they have got something like ninety five events
Speaker 1: booked for next year alone. Wow, and you know something
Speaker 1: like fifteen thousand, ten des are expected to go to
Speaker 1: just fifteen of those. Now, the real beauty of what
Speaker 1: we're talking about is crl to whyhot A two station.
Speaker 1: The central one is right beside scar City Albert Street
Speaker 1: with the scar City Grand actually faces the WAYHOA two station,
Speaker 1: and so then you've got a series of three blocks
Speaker 1: that Scarcity have connected up with walkways across the streets,
Speaker 1: so that's sort of flow and that connection and those numbers,
Speaker 1: we could really begin to see something change in the
Speaker 1: heart of Auckland there. And I do have to pay
Speaker 1: tribute to VIVBC and Heart of the City and all
Speaker 1: that they are doing. It's a tough role. But you know,
Speaker 1: I really hope that CR and the inns of at
Speaker 1: ICC and these sort of changes in Auckland that it
Speaker 1: will revive the center of town. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that is a reasonable expectation.
Speaker 3: I would really hope.
Speaker 2: So Actually, because I think about that convention center and
Speaker 2: the people and the amount of people that it will
Speaker 2: bring into Auckland, CBD. At the moment, though, would you
Speaker 2: be embarrassed for a group of Danish diplomats wanting to
Speaker 2: grab something for lunch or wanting to go and check
Speaker 2: out the local shopping scene and walking down to Queen
Speaker 2: Street from the International Convention Center.
Speaker 1: I don't think we've got any reason to be embarrassed.
Speaker 1: I think some astonishing restaurants. And my favorite is actually
Speaker 1: El Brown's the Depot. I just have to say that
Speaker 1: because look, you can sit outside. I love the food.
Speaker 1: I've been going there for years. Right beneath you know,
Speaker 1: Skar City, right a block from the Convention Center, the
Speaker 1: sky City Hotel, Horizon Hotel with a new onlex bar
Speaker 1: is outstanding. Ahe by Ben Bailey down in Commercial Bay.
Speaker 1: I mean, these are phenomenal places that really do the
Speaker 1: best to showcase I think New Zealand food. You know,
Speaker 1: you've got the Depot, which is pretty casual and I
Speaker 1: love that Kiwi style of it. And then Ben Bailey
Speaker 1: with fire and all the beauty of his open kitchen
Speaker 1: and the Cawi dishes and the beautiful tables. I mean,
Speaker 1: those are just two that I'm naming, but I'm not
Speaker 1: all embarrassed. I talk a couple of Irish friends up
Speaker 1: through the CBD midwinter on the wettest Sunday imaginable, and
Speaker 1: they loved walking up Albert Street because guess what on
Speaker 1: Albert Street I didn't know this. There are a whole
Speaker 1: lot of boards explaining the history. So we walk quite
Speaker 1: quickly past the yates and ex food ali vacant lot.
Speaker 1: They didn't work on that because they're busy reading the
Speaker 1: boards up Albert Street. And just in the last little
Speaker 1: while we've also had I think at announced that the
Speaker 1: buses are back on Albert Street, right, so that's beginning
Speaker 1: to come alive after all that hell of the CRL.
Speaker 1: But I don't think that we should think that the
Speaker 1: CROL construction was. It's it's just not personal to us.
Speaker 1: When they put the big Asian kilometer tram through the
Speaker 1: center of Sydney. I mean, my friends who retailers there
Speaker 1: had major conniptions. And I saw the tram, the light
Speaker 1: rail going being built up and down the GC and
Speaker 1: Queensland right, same thing. You know, businesses complaining. But at
Speaker 1: the end, guess what you can go from one end
Speaker 1: of the Gold Coast right up to meet the heavy
Speaker 1: rail and get into Brisbane. I mean the benefits of path.
Speaker 1: I know the pain was extraordinary. I do appreciate that,
Speaker 1: but I also think that in terms of the provision
Speaker 1: of infrastructure, we need to be looking and thinking long term.
Speaker 1: I got to tell you the story when the Harbor
Speaker 1: Bridge was being built, and when it was finished in
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine, people said, why do we need a
Speaker 1: harbor bridge? There's any strawberry fields on the north shore
Speaker 1: back of vision.
Speaker 2: So you've taken the diplomats out to dinner at our Browns,
Speaker 2: obviously had a beautiful cocktail on us and seeing the
Speaker 2: sunset on one of our beautiful rooftop bars. But then
Speaker 2: what if you take them down Queen Street or up
Speaker 2: Queen Street rather and past the same James Theater, past
Speaker 2: the Metro Center, past the Dead Smith and Coe's. What
Speaker 2: about that?
Speaker 1: Not so good?
Speaker 2: Not so good?
Speaker 1: Not going on long way from the water gets worse, right,
Speaker 1: But what I'd have to say to you is that
Speaker 1: end of town is getting a number of large student
Speaker 1: accommodation blocks one three hundred million, and so there's a
Speaker 1: lot of students around there in the daytime, and those
Speaker 1: blocks are actually quite perfectly situated in that location, just
Speaker 1: oft Lawn Street actually between aut and the University of Auckland,
Speaker 1: So there are positives. There is development going around there,
Speaker 1: just not on that just not so much on that
Speaker 1: big strip, although the Childs are also converting an office
Speaker 1: building into a hotel. Again, there is development occurring around there,
Speaker 1: not as dramatic obviously as the changes on the waterfront.
Speaker 2: So we shouldn't say is Auckland dying or dead? We
Speaker 2: should say it isn't dead yet.
Speaker 1: Auckland has been rebuilt and is being rebuilt, which is
Speaker 1: terribly exciting. The worst thing that can happen is just
Speaker 1: for people to leave and for me to be right
Speaker 1: about all the dead sites. I don't want to be right.
Speaker 1: I want to see the changes. I want to see
Speaker 1: the excitement and the joy of it all, and the
Speaker 1: coming alive and the people, just as you say, the
Speaker 1: Danes arriving here and searching for the beautiful restaurants.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Anne.
Speaker 1: Chelsea.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzid Herald dot co dot enz The Front Page
Speaker 2: is produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is
Speaker 2: also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front
Speaker 2: page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
Speaker 2: tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.