WEBVTT - Helen Clark on Israel-Iran tensions: ‘Nothing learned’ from Iraq war and how we can get lasting peace 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:06.120 Kyota. 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.240 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:16.960 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Donald Trump 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:20.080 has claimed that a ceasefire has been declared in the 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:24.520 war between Israel and Iran. Releasing a statement on Tuesday 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:28.120 morning and z time, Trump said there'd be a complete 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.920 and total cease fire in what he's. 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:32.640 Calling the twelve day War. 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.080 He also said the war could have destroyed the entire 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.400 Middle East and could have gone on for years, but 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:44.599 claimed both Israel and Iran came to him almost simultaneously 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:49.560 and said peace in all caps. While there remains uncertainty 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:52.800 about how long this ceasefire will last and how committed 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.840 both sides are to it, there also remains a question 0:00:56.200 --> 0:01:00.360 about the legitimacy of the intelligence that sparked the targeting 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.360 of Iran's nuclear capabilities. To those familiar with how the 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.000 IRANQ war started, it does feel like a case of 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:11.480 history repeating itself. Former New Zealand Prime Minister and administrator 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:16.400 of the United Nations Development Program Helen Clark was instrumental 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.400 in our country not engaging in that war. She spoke 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.520 to the Front Page on Monday afternoon prior to the 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.440 ceasefire deal being announced to discuss her experiences with Middle 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.440 East conflicts and what the world should be doing to 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.040 bring lasting peace. 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:39.760 Helen, I guess I'm keen. 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.560 To start with what your thoughts generally are on the 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:44.720 situation happening in the Middle East at the moment. 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:50.880 It's a richest situation and very very threatening to all 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.000 of us, at least in terms of economic security. 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:57.040 You have the oil exports. 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:02.240 Coming out of Saudi Arabia, uae Bar in Kuwait, Iraq, etc. 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.360 Heading through the Straits of Hormuz, and if the Straits 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.720 of hor Moos get closed, then you can just imagine 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.440 what is going to happen to oil prices and the 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.360 cost of living impact on that right through the value 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:19.280 chain of energy, transport, food processing and the rest of it. 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.680 So it's very very worry, let alone the possibility of 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.960 any more death and destruction on a daily basis. 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:29.520 I think what's interesting about this case is it does 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.680 seem to bear some similarities to what we saw in 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.240 Iraq over twenty years ago, a war that you opposed 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.399 as Prime Minister of New Zealand. For our younger listeners 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.400 who don't remember that time, can you just remind us 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:43.600 of how that all started. 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.360 You are right that there are parallels. There's two of 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:52.200 the same objectives with Iraq. The case that the US 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.160 made was that Iraq had weapons. 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:55.760 Of mass destruction. 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:59.760 Now what turned out to be the truth was that 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.360 the weapons they did have and had used in the 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:06.080 past had been destroyed after the First Golf War when 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:08.600 a UN process went in, So that was a false 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.880 basis for invasion. And the second objective was regime change, 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:17.720 and that those two objectives apply to the Saranian excursion 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.960 by Israel and the US today. Now, on the issue 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:25.440 of weapons of mass destruction, namely nuclear weapons, there is 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.240 no credible evidence that Iran is on the brink of 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.520 using a nuclear weapon or has even developed one. Yes, 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.440 it has nuclear activities, we know that, and that's been 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:39.160 an issue of concern, but the credible assessment of imminent 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:41.520 use and attack is just not there. 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.240 Secondly, we think of the. 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:48.360 Tortured history of Iraq, both before the invasion in two 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.760 thousand and three and then after it. It was hugely 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.600 destabilized when the structures that it did have were dismantled 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.160 at the rise of Isis, which of course led to 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.480 widespread sh human rights abuses of the peoples and the 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:06.160 areas that they occupied in Iraq and Syria. It really 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.520 hasn't settled to this day, and to think that we 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:13.720 might be in for a similarly protracted date of fragility 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.159 in Iran such as that which followed the Iraq War 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:18.800 is very, very disturbing. 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:20.960 Is it fair to say that you faced a lot 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.320 of pressure at the time to fall into line with 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:24.320 the rest of the world. 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.880 Well, in all truth, there was very little pressure for 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:31.080 New Zealand to get involved. It was obliquely raised with 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:36.320 me sometime before the invasion actually occurred, and my response 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:40.360 was firm by the time it came close to the 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:44.479 invasion and when the Security Council was considering the matter 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.640 in New York and New Zealand's position was very clear 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:51.320 and we came under no pressure. Now, the only countries 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:55.800 who invaded Iraq were the US, the UK, Australia and Spain. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.039 It was a pretty small group. Most of the world 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:02.720 was appalled because again it didn't meet the tests under 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:06.800 international law of self defense in the face of an 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.760 imminent threat of at tech and that's the test that 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.880 we must also apply here. That Israel was not under 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.640 imminent threat of attack, and nor was the United States 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:23.039 of America. 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.760 President posting on truth Social this quote, it's not politically 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.400 correct to use the term regime change, but if the 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.680 current Iranian regime is unable to make Iran great again, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.839 why wouldn't there be a regime change? And then he'd 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.839 put the phrase MIGA or make Iran great again? Defense 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:40.159 Secretary Pete Hegseth and JD Vance, the Vice President, have 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.840 flat out set on Sunday that that was not the plan. 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:43.559 Take a listen. 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:47.040 This mission was not and has not been about regime change. 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:53.479 The President authorized a precision operation to neutralize the threats 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:57.400 to our national interests posed by the Iranian nuclear program. 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.280 Our view has been very clear that we don't want 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:00.920 a regime change. 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.200 And you touched on this before, but a lot of 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:09.799 the Iraq War became about deposing Saddam Hussein and pushing 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.960 through a regime change. Donald Trump has now contradicted previous 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.160 statements that the US is not seeking a regime change 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:19.960 in Iran, but he also wrote that if the current 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:24.479 Iranian regime is unable to make Iran great again, why 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:26.520 wouldn't there be a regime change? 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:26.760 Now? 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:28.279 How concerning is this? 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.560 So I think I would speak for just about everybody 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.640 in you Zealand if I said, and I will, that 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.520 their Iranian regime is not a nice one, and nor 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:43.240 was Saddam husseins that the problem is that when change 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.960 is forced on a country by outside forces, that in 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:51.239 itself becomes very, very destabilizing, as we saw with Iraq. 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.960 And the chances are that if Israel and the United 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.719 States were to succeed with quote regime change in the 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.919 short term, you you may have a very unpredictable and 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:07.120 volatile country, even a failed state, which Iraq in effect 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:12.080 became after the destabilization of two thousand and three. So 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.440 it may be a question of be careful what you 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.200 wish for. In the end, it's the people of a 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.720 country that must determine who governs them, not outside forces. 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.920 Yeah, and when it comes to regime changes, I suppose 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.760 I'm thinking of that ancient Greek myth of Hydra with 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.239 the heads, and once you cut off one head, another 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:31.000 one grows. 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.560 Yes, you can envisits from the rhetoric at the moment 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:40.560 that those responsible for these attacks now are doing their 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.840 best to locate the supreme leader, and it hasn't been 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:47.160 ruled out that he may be on an assassination list. 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:47.880 But what next. 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:53.160 You know, they have already assassinated senior military and signed 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.400 nuclear science figures. But there's a whole structure under them. 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.840 So it may be that you go from the devil, 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:02.480 you know, as it were, to then down to the 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:07.520 captains and sergeants of the operation with a lot more unpredictability. 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.080 So it's just not as simple as saying we will 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.920 remove act and why and somehow there'll be a democratic 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:16.440 regime in the image of the West. 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:17.920 That's not going to happen. 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:24.560 And this is the folly of these kinds of military adventures. 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:33.440 A lot of countries are calling for a return to 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:36.880 the negotiation table as a solution to things at the moment, 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.679 do you think that would work or has the horse 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:40.960 bolted so to speak? 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:44.560 So look, it has to work in the end. We 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.760 have to get back to talks. Otherwise a balloon goes 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:52.320 up with entirely unpredictable consequences. What if no oil can 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.839 leave the Gulf, the world economy is thrown into turmoil. 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.960 You know, what if the war expands, What if American 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:04.000 hit What if then there's more widespread US bombing Parana, 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:05.200 it's unthinkable. 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.599 So Winston Peters was absolutely. 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.920 Right to call for an end to the conflict and 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.679 return to the negotiating table. That's what everyone's calling for, 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.679 and it's not easy to achieve that in the circumstances. 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.959 We're now in. And you know, the Iranians, you know, obviously. 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.000 Are in a mood where they want to strike back, 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:26.480 but every time they strike, more of their capacity is 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:29.520 taken out, and you know this could spiral on and on. 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.680 So I think all voices, including our countries, must be 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:38.320 heard for an end to the bombing, both science and 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:39.880 getting back to talks. 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.960 Given the Iraq War is widely seen as an abject failure, 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.560 do you think we are at risk of falling down 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:47.760 the same path again? 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:49.079 Have we learned anything? 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.760 Well, it's clear that nothing has been learned at all 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:57.240 because the Iraq War had disastrous consequences. So one loses 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:01.080 track of the great many people who died of starvation, hunger, 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.240 poverty in Iraq after the invasion, let alone they spin 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:08.840 out with isis the huge security threats in the countries 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:11.280 of this day? Who would wish that on the people 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:14.439 of Iran? What I have been noticing is that even 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:18.680 people who have been terribly persecuted by the Iranian regime 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.640 have come out in social media and so please do 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:22.760 not bomb my country. 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:23.720 This is not the way. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.760 Diplomacy is the way, and that's what we have to 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:27.600 hang out for. 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:29.880 I think there's another important point too. 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.920 New Zealand has been for a very long time, half 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.560 a century or more strong voice for nuclear disarmament. We 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.080 don't support actually anyone having a nuclear weapon. The five 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.600 permanent members of the Security Council have them the other 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:49.040 acknowledged club. But India, Pakistan, Democratic Republican, North Korea so 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:53.920 called have nuclear capacity. Iran it has not been demonstrated, 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:55.880 but it could go that way, which is what. 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.480 The inspections have been about. 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:02.320 Israel is estimated to have some ninety plutonium based nuclear 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.600 warheads and enough plutonium for one hundred to two hundred weapons. 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:08.920 In other words, in this context in the Middle East, 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.240 this war is like putting a match to dynamite. 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:14.240 We do not know what could happen. 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.280 We talked about a lot of subjects. We talked about 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:22.280 the importance for the United States and New Zealand to 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:26.960 work cooperatively and helping democracy in places like Afghanistan. We 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:31.000 talked about North Korea and Iran, our mutual desire for 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.880 these problems of our nation's wanting to have nuclear weapons 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.520 to be solved in a peaceful way by using the 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:38.760 diplomatic process. 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:39.760 All in all, I. 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.719 Found to be a construct for conversation, such a good conversation. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:44.920 I've decided to invite her for lunch. 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.640 And you've been in the room when these kind of 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.800 talks have happened in the past. Is there anything to 0:11:55.880 --> 0:12:00.640 suggest here that there is some kind of intelligence about 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:05.600 that Iran was further along in its manufacture of nuclear 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.640 weapons than perhaps we're led on to believe. 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:13.720 So let's have some context here. Back in the twenty tens, 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:18.080 United States and the Europeans negotiated with Iran a joint 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:23.040 and comprehensive program of action through which Iran agreed to 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.640 limit its nuclear program in return for relief from sanctions. 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.880 When President Trump came to office, he scuttled that agreement 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:31.160 in twenty eighteen. 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:35.560 Now, the International Atomic Energy Agency has continued to carry 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:39.160 out its inspections for the best that it can in Iran, 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.480 but it did report on the twelfth of June that 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:47.559 Iran was not responding with adequate explanations about its nuclear materials, 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.800 and they haven't really had adequate site access either, So 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.839 that's a concern, but that is a very different matter 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:57.880 from saying though on the brink of firing a nuclear weapon. 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.960 I would also point out that Israel is not a 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:05.280 signatory to the Non Proliferation Treaty, so the International Atomic 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:09.040 Energy Agency never reports on Israel's nuclear program because it 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:10.160 has no capacity to. 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.120 Does this kind of show the flaws with the United Nations? 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.920 If there's a charter that can be broken and ignored 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.680 so easily by a permanent member of the Security Council, 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:23.040 is there a point to the organization? 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:29.280 We're in a very very fragile position with the multilateral system. Now, 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:33.240 look on the Security Council you have Russia sitting, which 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:38.000 invaded Ukraine, totally illegal under international law and a breach 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.520 to the UN Charter. This bombing now by the United 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:46.439 States of Iran will also be deemed illegal under international law. 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:50.800 So if those who hold the veto on the Security 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.880 Council willfully breach international law, what hope for the rest 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.959 of US and for New Zealand, which has always stood 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.600 by international law because as a small state. 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.960 That's all we've got. That's all we've got. 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.160 It is extremely worrying and we need to be holding 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.880 hands with a vast majority of the world's countries who 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.560 are appalled by this, because most of them don't have 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.920 much might either and do depend on an international order 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:19.880 based on international law. 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.040 It does seem quite archaic that the Five Countries can 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.240 veto decisions, you know, like a call for peace in Ukraine, 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:27.720 for example, can obviously. 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:28.760 Be vetoed by Russia. 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.840 Can that be changed, well, yes it should. 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.760 And again New Zealand can hold its head high because 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.640 going back to the drafting of the UN Charter in 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:41.440 ninety forty five, Peter Fraser, leading the New Zealand delegation 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.760 as Prime Minister, stood out against the veto. Now, I 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.760 think we ended up with a veto because the League 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.240 of Nations, which had failed to stop World War II 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.200 and had gone out of business. The Americans were never 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.320 a member of it, and it seemed that the only 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.560 way the Americans were going to come into the UN 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.240 was have a veto right in the Security Council. But 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.600 here we are, you know, this is the eightieth year 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.000 of the UN Charter. Here we are the five victor 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.840 countries from World War II have a veto. To this day, 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.280 they are using it in a way which also was 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.120 not envisaged by the UN Charter, which is that there 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:20.800 should not be its use where the matter at hand 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:25.360 directly concerns the country casting the vito. But that course 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.400 is all lost in the mist of time. So we 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:31.800 have a security Council that's highly polarized, highly dysfunctional, and 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:36.720 unable to make a useful contribution to international peace and security. 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.360 Helen, if Christopher Luxen called you tomorrow asking for your 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:44.200 advice on what New Zealand should do next in this situation, 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:45.160 what would that be? 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.440 What I would say is have New Zealand's voice firmly 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:54.840 heard for international law and for a return to diplomacy, quickly, 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:59.080 call for the cease fire, core for the negotiations, called 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:04.240 for disarmament as we always have, put your stake in 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:06.400 the ground and what New Zealand's stood for for a 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:07.280 very long time. 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:08.720 Thanks for joining us, Helen. 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:09.400 Thank you. 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.160 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:20.000 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:21.840 at enzdherld. 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:22.440 Dot co dot nz. 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:27.440 The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who. 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:31.080 Is also our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.800 Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.640 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.320 behind the headlines.