1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Kilda. 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Thirty years ago, 4 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 2: five members of the Bain family in Dunedin were found 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: dead in their family home. The one surviving family member, David, 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: was later convicted of murdering his parents and three siblings. 7 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 2: He served thirteen years in prison before the Privy Council 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: quashed his convictions and he was subsequently found not guilty 9 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 2: on all charges at a retrial in two thousand and nine. 10 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: Despite this, for three decades, this case has joined a 11 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: gallery of notorious murders that have fascinated New Zealanders across 12 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: the years. Later, on the Front Page, we discuss our 13 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: fixation with this and other cases with Professor of POLP Culture, 14 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 2: doctor Lorna Piazzi. Far now but first longtime David Bain 15 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: advocate Joe Karen reflects on his three decades linked to 16 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 2: the case. 17 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: I think thirty years. 18 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: Since the killings at Every Street. You're a former All Black, 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: a successful businessman but also known as a longtime David 20 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 2: Bain advocate. What first got you interested in this case? 21 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,279 Speaker 3: I was reading the New Zealand Herald one morning early 22 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 3: in January of nineteen ninety six, and there was a 23 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 3: little article in the Herald. Was a picture of five 24 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 3: or six people in the Octagon and the Meeden the 25 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 3: Treshoor table selling jams and pickles to raise money, with 26 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 3: a sign on the front which said David Dane was innocent. 27 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 3: And the story said that one of the people was 28 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 3: an elderly woman who was David Bain's music teacher, and 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: the other ones were friend that is from university and 30 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 3: drama society belonged to. And the story just grabbed me. Actually, 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 3: I'd been a close follower of the Arthur Allen Thomas case. 32 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 3: Funnily enough, I had broken my leg and was implaster 33 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 3: sitting at home doing nothing in nineteen seventy when the 34 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 3: crew murders happened, and that because I was stuck with 35 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 3: here was nowhere to go for nothing to do. I 36 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 3: sort of read and listened to everything that happened. Anyway, 37 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 3: what struck me about this article It wasn't like his 38 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 3: parents or family. These were people who were just friends 39 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 3: who to go out in the street and do this. 40 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 3: And I had a visit with my lawyer on some 41 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 3: other business A few days later, and I said to 42 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 3: do you know who the lawyer for the David Bain was, 43 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 3: And he gave me his name and address or phone number, 44 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 3: and I contacted him and put my finger in the 45 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 3: water and there we go. Twenty years later, I still 46 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 3: at it. 47 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen people say that they would never have 48 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: been a retrial without your support of Bain. Would you 49 00:02:58,040 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: agree with that? 50 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 3: Oh? Well, I'd go without not being boastful, but just 51 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 3: I think all the lawyers that I engaged over the 52 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 3: years would say exactly the same thing. Not only would 53 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 3: they not have been a retrial, there would David Dane 54 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 3: would still be in prison now. When they ordered the retrial, 55 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 3: Michael Reid, who was David Baine's QC, Michael REQC, he said, Joe, 56 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 3: you have to come down there. We can't do this 57 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 3: without You're the one with all the knowledge and everything else. 58 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 3: I said, well, you know, I'm not a lawyer. You 59 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 3: don't need the trial, and he said, no, You've got 60 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 3: to be there. So I was there right through the 61 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 3: whole thing, and I made over the years, I made 62 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: some very very important and crucial decisions for the legal team. 63 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: And I think it's fair to say that David Baine 64 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 3: instead of being happily married now two lovely children and 65 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 3: the gordous wife would still be writing away in the prison. 66 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: And it was the will of the police and the 67 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 3: various government officials that's what they would have liked to 68 00:03:58,160 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 3: have happened. 69 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,839 Speaker 2: Well, you were kind of the face of the campaign, hey, 70 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: and you really took on that role. And to say 71 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: this case was divisive is an understatement. What was it 72 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: like heading the campaign for so long? What kind of 73 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: things did you experience? 74 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 3: Well, it's hard for anybody who wasn't close to me 75 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 3: over those years to understand is just how vicious the 76 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 3: assault on me personally was. I brought a different perspective 77 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: in the sense that you know, as a well known person, 78 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: being a formal all black, and that made the police 79 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 3: and the Justice department officials see me as more of 80 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 3: a threat, I suppose to a normal person who might 81 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 3: be fighting against an injustice. Right from the very beginning. 82 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 3: It was amazing when my name first became public as 83 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 3: being working for David, the number of police cars that 84 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 3: would be driving past our house. We lived in the country, 85 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: myself and a life and three children. At that stage. 86 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 3: I separated from my life soon after one night, not 87 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 3: long long after we'd separated, she'd been shopping in the evening. 88 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 3: It was in the winter time, and she went to 89 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 3: get in the car and her eyes approached her. And 90 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 3: they were both private investigators to follow me around and 91 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 3: try and dig up as much dirt on me as 92 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 3: they could, and they thought that the children wife might 93 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 3: be a great source of information for them. They sort 94 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 3: of did all they could to persuade her to spill 95 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 3: as much dirt on me as what she could, but 96 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 3: she didn't. She rang me up and told me what happened. Then, 97 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 3: of course, after I wrote the first book, which really 98 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 3: is what started the major controversy, the police sued me 99 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: for defamation. And I think that I can say fairly 100 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 3: accurately that I'm the only person that the police have 101 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 3: ever sued the defamation in New Zealand's history. Joe Karen, 102 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 3: why are you doing this? 103 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: He is guilty as the police can't be wrong and 104 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: the government of cues can't all be wrong. 105 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 4: Surely, I don't know how well film you are. But 106 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 4: the jury did not hear all of the evidence. Much 107 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 4: of the evidence they did here was wrong. The detective 108 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,119 Speaker 4: in fact, who sued me admitted it under oath during 109 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 4: my trial that his evidence on a most crucial matter 110 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 4: was wrong. The other detective be sued me under cross 111 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 4: examination made the statement that if he'd been asked, he 112 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 4: would have told the whole truth. 113 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 2: You've mentioned before it had been tough, and I liked 114 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 2: this quote. You sometimes represented as being a raving redneck 115 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 2: who had lost the plot, and it seems like you've 116 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: been on the receiving end, especially a lot of public 117 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 2: backlash over the years. What kind of toll has that 118 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: taken on you thirty years down the track. 119 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't say it's the toll lives with me now. 120 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 3: I mean, if I look at the case now in retrospect, 121 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 3: I have a great personal satisfaction and the feeling of triumph. 122 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 3: But as I said before David Dane, which will probably 123 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 3: be writing in jail instead of being happy married, it 124 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 3: gives me a great deal of bride and satisfaction that 125 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 3: my stick ability and all the work I did and 126 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 3: ef it I put into it a result than that. 127 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: You've said the campaign costs you millions over the years. 128 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 2: Were you surprised going in how much it actually cost 129 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: to challenge the legal system, Because first cab off. The 130 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 2: rank was getting someone over to the Privy Council way 131 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: and you donated what like twelve grand. 132 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 3: The initial thing was with Michael Guest, David's original lawyer, 133 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 3: and I didn't think you get to the Privy Council 134 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: in London for twelve thousand dollars. I was recently well 135 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 3: off at that time and the case he was bringing 136 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 3: seemed to be quite powerful to me. In fact, that's 137 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: when my association with the case just became public. What 138 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 3: I discovered on that visit and soon after was that 139 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 3: Michael Guest, David's original lawyer did a terrible job. And 140 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 3: so one of the first major decisions I made was 141 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 3: to sack him, and I arranged for Colin Wisner, QC 142 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 3: and Dunedin to work with me to investigate whether or 143 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 3: not he thought there'd been a miscarriage of justice that 144 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:12,239 Speaker 3: was challengeable through the proper channels, and that after working 145 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 3: with me for twelve months, he agreed that there was, 146 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 3: and we lodged the petition to the Governor General. 147 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: Would you do it all again? 148 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 3: I would definitely do it all again, and I wouldn't 149 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 3: change I wouldn't be able to change anything because if 150 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 3: I didn't be as feisty and determined and out spoken 151 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 3: and voice things publicly as I did, I'd be just 152 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: like the Watson case now, struggling on twenty three years later, 153 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 3: hoping for the best and expecting the worst. So the 154 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 3: only thing I did wrong was have a faith in 155 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 3: the powers that be that they would take my concerns seriously. 156 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 3: That they didn't, And so when they treated me the 157 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 3: way they did, I treated them the same way back. 158 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: Over the last fifteen years. How much of your time 159 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 2: is still spent protecting David and I guess his new 160 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 2: family now as well. 161 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 3: David actually said to me after the two thousand and 162 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 3: three decision of the Court of Appeal, and I was 163 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 3: sitting with him in prison. I think I might have 164 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: been shedding it through tears, and I was looking in 165 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 3: the eye and saying, I just can't believe this, and 166 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 3: they right have. I got this all wrong, David, and 167 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 3: you've been bullshitting me all along. And David looked at 168 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 3: me and said, Joe, you're doing tougher lag than me. 169 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 3: He said, I am innocent, and I'll never ever admit 170 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: enough fight on somehow, but you need to get on 171 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 3: your life glowing away, And as I said, I wrote 172 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 3: a letter of the Court of Appeal and told them 173 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: that they were wrong, and I go to the Privy 174 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 3: Council and that's what I did. But in terms of 175 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 3: protecting David, the biggest thing was since the retrial, that 176 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: is the biggest thing for me, was to get him 177 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 3: some compensation. And so after Benny report was staring out 178 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 3: in twenty and twelve, I then had to fight on 179 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 3: for another four years to finally get him about a 180 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: million dollars in two thy and sixteen, which gave him 181 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 3: the opportunity of creating And he was married by then 182 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 3: and he had one child by then, which gave him 183 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 3: his wife at least the opportunity of creating a life 184 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 3: for themselves and some privacy. But since that time and 185 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: David and I agreed it well at his wife that 186 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,959 Speaker 3: it was their life and they would live at how 187 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 3: they wished to where they wished to, and to make 188 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 3: decisions for themselves. I offered that anytime they even needed 189 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 3: to meet a help them, I would, but that they 190 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 3: would basically get on with their life in their own way, 191 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 3: which is what I've done. 192 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 2: And they're doing well. Do they manage to kind of 193 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 2: avoid being bothered. 194 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 3: Well, they have done extremely well. I mean, this is 195 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 3: another thing about all the nonsense that's been written by 196 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 3: so many people. I must say that most of it 197 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 3: has come out of the christ Church priest with Martin 198 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 3: I'm leading the charge. As you know, Van Dayana wrote 199 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: the story which New Zealand just went along with that 200 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 3: naturally enough, that David Dane had sort of scarped off 201 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 3: to Australia with his wife and that's where he was living. 202 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 3: That was totally untrue. David never went to Australia to live. 203 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 3: He had one short holiday there on the Gold Coast 204 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 3: with his wife, but he never contemplated living there and 205 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 3: never went there at all, and eventually they shifted to 206 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 3: where they now live. His wife has a very very 207 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 3: good job, is highly respected, and they bought a great 208 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 3: life for themselves. They've got two children who are doing 209 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: exceptionally well and as as far as they've got great support, 210 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 3: need work in the community where they are. And whether 211 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 3: or not what's happening now with this anniversary and the 212 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: scrutiny on things will change that, I don't know, but 213 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 3: I'm sure David will hold him. 214 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 2: If anything does that and have you spoken to him recently? 215 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: I mean just checking in with them. I guess I'm 216 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 2: given it thirty years. 217 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 3: We speak to each other, not every day or every 218 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 3: week or anything, but sort of once a month or 219 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 3: two months. We've never got old and wag on the 220 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 3: phone and talk about how things are going, and he 221 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 3: talks about his family and what he's doing for work 222 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 3: and so on. And I've talked to him recently about 223 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: the immedia scrutiny that's been going on, and he said, look, 224 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 3: we're living a happy life. We've got a good support 225 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 3: network around us, and I just wanted to sort of 226 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 3: just keep my head down and be tap with my 227 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 3: family and close friends. So that's what you're doing. 228 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 5: How are you feeling? 229 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 3: What was it like to hear that phrase not guilty 230 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 3: repeated five times today? 231 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 6: That was a huge release for me, to be honest, 232 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 6: I just in some respects it took a huge weights 233 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,599 Speaker 6: off my shoulders. But it's also shown me that the 234 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 6: love of all these people and this fantastic man here 235 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 6: has got me through and it's just it's all coming 236 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 6: at once. 237 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: Do you think New Zealand needs to move on? 238 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 3: Well? I think what needs to happen was Black Hans 239 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 3: and Baine and thing is what it did. It had 240 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 3: an enormous effect. I mean it turns. I mean younger 241 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 3: people tend to listen to podcasts. I know that's changed now, 242 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: lots of people do. But all of the people who 243 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 3: were too young to follow the case and know about 244 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 3: the case, there are only reference about the case is 245 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 3: not only the podcast, but then New Zealand on Air 246 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 3: granted five million dollars to Warner Brothers to do that 247 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 3: television three part doco drama on the thing. What I 248 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 3: think needs to happen and answer your question, somebody should 249 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 3: put up five million dollars to have an investigation into 250 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: what went wrong, who did what, when did they do 251 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 3: it and why and get some accountability. Not for the 252 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 3: purpose of vengeance on all the people who did do things, 253 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 3: rather as I don't think David or me want to 254 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 3: see any of them get locked up, even though they 255 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 3: deserve it, but to make sure or put things in 256 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 3: place to try to ensure that something like this never 257 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 3: happens again. 258 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 2: You're saying, instead of giving money to the likes of 259 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: a three part docco. 260 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 3: Series which was a pointless it was pointless a proud 261 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 3: and not think it added nothing to the story, and 262 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 3: in fact it wasn't even very didn't get very good ratings, 263 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: but that it creates controversy and unnecessary. 264 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: And I suppose retraumatizers as well. I mean, this is 265 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: probably a period of David's life that he doesn't really 266 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: want to reflect on too. 267 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 3: Much exactly, but not only in I mean, I know 268 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 3: his extended family have ditched him and taken a side 269 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 3: of the police, but I don't think they want all 270 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 3: the stuff regurgitated over and over and over again, because 271 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 3: you know, as much as I think they were wrong 272 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: in the way they behaved, each tended family that is 273 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: in not supporting David. However, of course it was their 274 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 3: brother and sister and nieces and nephews and cousins who 275 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 3: also lost their lives and say they've been through a 276 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 3: great de la trauma as well. And the regurgitating of 277 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 3: what happened is no help to anybody. But what would 278 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: be a help would be to try to ensure that 279 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 3: these practices are well and truly in the past and 280 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 3: put things in place to make sure they don't happen again. 281 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: Is it time for New Zealand to leave David and 282 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: his family alone. 283 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 3: Well, it would be much easier for them to leave 284 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 3: him alone if the facts of the case were properly 285 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 3: put on the table and his innocence was acknowledged instead 286 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 3: of trying to portray him, as we've talked about with 287 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: the various podcasts and so on, as a killer living 288 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 3: amongst us. It's pretty obvious what happened, and the only 289 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 3: valuable thing that can be done for the case is 290 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: to learn from the mistakes that were made by the police, 291 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 3: by the Crown Law Office and Wellington, by the judges 292 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: at the Court of Appeal, and by politicians. He could 293 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 3: have all put a stop to this way back in 294 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven when I went and told them, I mean, 295 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 3: what happened in the retrial is exactly what I told 296 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 3: them would happen if there was a retrial and I 297 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 3: was proven right thirteen years later. You know, I'd never 298 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 3: had any experience in law or criminal cases, and if 299 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 3: I could see how clearly what the case was by myself, 300 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 3: then all these people could have seen it if it 301 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 3: wasn't for their institutional bias which they brought to play 302 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: on the case. An answer your question, yes, leave it alone. 303 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 3: Or if you're going to touch it, at least acknowledge 304 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 3: the shortcomings and all of the authorities. When I went 305 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 3: to see the police, originally, it never would have been 306 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 3: all this controversy if they'd sat down with me and 307 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 3: discussed and worked out the way forward. I didn't want 308 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 3: to write books about the case. I didn't want to 309 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 3: have all this controversy and have David writing a land 310 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 3: prison for thirty more years. But instead of that, their 311 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 3: response was to try and destroy all the evidence. The 312 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 3: controversy is at the feet of the authorities. 313 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Joe, David Bain, Scott Watson, Race Mulane, 314 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 2: Heavenly Creatures, the Crew Murders. Some cases have captured Kiwi's 315 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 2: imagination and focus over the years more than others, So 316 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 2: why do we care about some cases rather than others. 317 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 2: To discuss this further, we're joined now on the front 318 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 2: page by aut University's professor of Popular Culture, doctor Lorna 319 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 2: Piatti Farnell. 320 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: Lorna. 321 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 2: Whether it's podcasts, articles, documentaries, TV adaptations, we all seem 322 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: to love true crime, don't we. What drives that fascination? 323 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: Well, the fascination with true crime likely comes from many causes, 324 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: and there are probably many reasons as to white people 325 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: enjoy true crime stories so much. Now. Generally speaking, I 326 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: would say that the interest in true crime likely stems 327 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: first of all from the curiosity the people have about 328 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: these highly confronting stories. People want to know more and 329 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: find out the motivations of these killers. Above all, the 330 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: exploration of what we could not imagine doing, and the 331 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: focus on what it's perceived as different, deviant and simply 332 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: just not fitting in our society. Now, I think there 333 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: is a desire to try and discover some form of 334 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: blueprint over what caused the murderers to do what they did, 335 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: and perhaps even to avoid it happening again in the future. Unfortunately, 336 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: no matter how many true crime stories we might watch, 337 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: this is not simply a journey of causality and correlation 338 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: that applies to every single case, so it doesn't quite 339 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: work like that. But still we try and true crime 340 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: stories for the fans they will know this are often 341 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: very very visceral and get into very gory detail, so 342 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: there's probably a certain strange foeuristic side to the fascination. 343 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: And of course true crime is based generally speaking on 344 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: real historical events. It actually happened. So there is also 345 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 1: a layer of unspoken mixture of fear and excitement that 346 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: goes with the experience as well the thrill of delving 347 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 1: into the crime and all his details. 348 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 2: Shall we say, yeah, And looking at David Baine as 349 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: an example, it's been thirty years and he's gone through 350 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: two trials now, but we can't seem to leave it alone. 351 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 2: What do you think motivates people to keep talking about Bain? 352 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: Now? What a case like that of Bain and several 353 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: others in a similar category, there is I think, in 354 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: equal parts fascination and repulsion over the fact that the 355 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: perpetrators of the crime of the murders did not kill strangers, 356 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: as it is often the case with a lot of 357 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: true crime stories that we see, but they killed members 358 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 1: of their family, or allegedly killed members of their family 359 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: as the trial went. Now the people that they should 360 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: have loved the most and cherished the most and cared about, 361 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: and that truly has a certain, should we say, unimaginable 362 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: quality to it. Truly is the call of the unthinkable, 363 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: And of course murder is thankfully unthinkable from the majority 364 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: of people. But when we encounter cases when it does 365 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: happen within family circles. There is a challenge to our 366 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: sense of safety, the pushing of boundaries of our comfort zone, 367 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: which is likely why these particular cases get so much attention. 368 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: And also we should not underestimate the idea that someone 369 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: may have actually been wrongfully convicted of a crime and 370 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: spent time in prison, as that is certainly something that 371 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: resonates with people. 372 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, we were talking about Scott Watson on the podcast 373 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 2: the other week and one of our guests noted how 374 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: the name has been Smart and Olivia Hope. The fact 375 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: that that we both young, white, blonde made that case 376 00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 2: stand out more. 377 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 1: Perhaps, you know. 378 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 5: A couple of really attractive kids doing what a lot 379 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 5: of kids of that age did, which is their first 380 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 5: holidays with their friends, not their family, not to mention 381 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 5: their surnames, Hope and Smart. You know, they were the 382 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 5: perfect set of white middle class kids, beautiful, intelligent, their 383 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 5: whole lives ahead of them. And I think that's what 384 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 5: capitivated the country who because I think if it was 385 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 5: you know, as some different people in a small town, 386 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 5: for example, there wouldn't have been such a huge kind 387 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 5: of interest. 388 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 2: Does race and class play into which cases Garner our 389 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 2: attention over others, do you think. 390 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: I see? Unfortunately, if we look at all the research 391 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: that has been conducted in this particular area and on 392 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: this particular topic in several fields, from criminal psychology to 393 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: gender and race studies to cultural and media studies, there 394 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: is definitely ample evidence to suggest that unfortunately, race, gender, 395 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: and class do play central parts in victim and perpetrator definition, 396 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: in the creation of sympathy or lack of sympathy, and 397 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: the attention that the case may actually get in the news. 398 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: There is a lot of stereotyping that happens, and most 399 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: often than not, this can reflect negatively on the victims 400 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: or on the perpetrator. It is regrettable, and it is 401 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: essential that we maintain a continuous awareness of this, especially 402 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: when presented with criminal acts in both real life and 403 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: fictionalized accounts. 404 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also seventy years since the Polling Parker and 405 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 2: Juliet Home murders in what's known as the Heavenly Creature's case. 406 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: So this isn't really a modern phenomenon, is it. 407 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: Well, I'm assuming you mean the news and cultural hype 408 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: of a murder rather than wealth as the latter has 409 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: been around. I think for as long as humans have 410 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: been around. Certainly, the narrative, shall we say, constructions of 411 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: a murder, the storytelling a murder, and what part do 412 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: news outlets and media play in generally that is not 413 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: a contemporary occurrence. Certainly from the late nineteenth entry onwards 414 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: with you know, famous cases like that of Jack the Ripper, 415 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: there has been a fascination with the idea of crime 416 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: that has been fueled by storytelling, and this has been 417 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: transported from the news or other forms of media such 418 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: as film and television and more recently you know, podcasts 419 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: and the like very popular with listeners. And then sensationalization 420 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: of murder has really been occurring ever since news and 421 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: later media audiences have been a thing. So absolutely it's 422 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: not really a new phenomenon. 423 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: How much does news media drive interest in these cases 424 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: and should there be I guess more consideration from journalists 425 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: in what cases they spotlight? 426 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: I suppose yes, that is a good question. And news 427 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: media have historically been central to drawing public attention to 428 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: particular cases, especially in building you know, speculation and fascination 429 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: around particular crimes, especially murders. Now, the serial killer phenomenon, 430 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: as it's often called more than the murder themselves, and 431 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: then the public attention around it has been intrinsically connected 432 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: with media attention. Sometimes historical facts and popular views can merge, 433 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: they can blend and merge and become one, and some 434 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: ideas of facts become very cemented into people's minds and 435 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: difficult to shake, whether they actually happen or not. So 436 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: it is always important to maintain vigilance over what information 437 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: is shared and circulated about these cases and in our 438 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: contemporary era, not only in official media outlets, but also 439 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: on user generated content platforms, and there are certainly quite 440 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: a lot of those around, so vigilance is definitely the key. 441 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Lona. That's it for this episode 442 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 2: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's 443 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: stories and extensive news coverage at enzed Herald dot co 444 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 2: dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles 445 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to 446 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 2: the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, 447 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 2: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.