WEBVTT - The Last Advocate: Top pathologist delves into Kiwi murders, mysteries and the macabre 0:00:01.200 --> 0:00:04.040 This episode of A Moment in Crime refers to murders, 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:07.840 including the killing of children. It also contains descriptions of 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:12.600 post mortem examinations and forensic evidence. This content is intended 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:13.880 for a mature audience. 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:17.120 Mark Lundy did it. 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.800 He murdered his wife, Christine and their young daughter Amber 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.440 and their Parmeston North home. A New Zealand's leading pathologist, 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.760 after working on the Lundee case for years, can tell 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:30.320 you why he's sure, without a shadow of a doubt, 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.040 Lundy is a double murderer. I know there's many people 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.000 out there that don't believe Lundee is responsible. They think 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:39.440 that he's been stitched up, that someone else did it. 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.640 Since the day it happened, Lundy himself has protested his innocence, 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.559 but he was the only one who could have done it. 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.360 That's what two High Court juries have decided at separate 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:56.320 murder trials, and Kenrick temple Camp backs them based on 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.320 the science of the case. In this episode of A 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:02.920 Moment in Crime, you'll hear more about Kenrick's work on 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:07.240 the Lundy case, dubbed Operation Winter by police, and you'll 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:09.800 find out what he thinks about another infamous New Zealand 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:14.000 double murder the polarizing case of Scott Watson, convicted of 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.560 killing Ben Smart and Olivia Hope during New Year's celebrations 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.520 in nineteen ninety nine. Usually, episodes of a Moment of 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:25.560 Crime focus on old cases, cold cases, or recent cases 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:31.440 of national and international significance involving Keiwi offenders or victims. Today, 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:33.800 I'll take you to the other side of the cordon 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.720 inside Kinrick's world. Since the nineteen eighties, he's been tasked 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.040 with establishing the cause of death for countless men, women 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:45.360 and children. He's also been called in to solve the 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.160 baffling health mysteries of the living, and he spends hours 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.680 in a lab each week examining various samples and swabs 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:57.680 to diagnose everything from viruses to cancer. Kenrick has written 0:01:57.720 --> 0:01:59.840 three books on the work he does and has pa 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:04.200 about His latest is called The Final Diagnosis and is 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:08.160 available now with the booker. It was the perfect opportunity 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:10.679 to talk with a man who knows more about murder 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.560 than most people in New Zealand. I'll include information in 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:16.880 the show notes about his books and a link to 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.760 my story about Kenrick's vast and varied career. 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:22.320 If there's other cases you. 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.080 Want to hear about on a Moment in Crime. Email 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.760 me at Anna dot leask at enzme dot co dot Nz. 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.360 From the who dunnets in cold cases to the strange 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.400 and quirky, crime is one of the most fascinating corners 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.960 of society and the news. From the New Zealand Herald 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.880 newsroom comes a Moment in Crime, a podcast delving into 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:48.400 some of New Zealand's most high profile cases, offenses and offenders. 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:51.880 Each month, I'll take you inside some of our most 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:56.280 infamous incidents, notorious offenders, and behind the scenes of high 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:00.280 profile trials and events to show you what's really happening 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:11.480 in your backyard. Kindric temple Camp was born in Zimbabwe, 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:14.920 emigrating to New Zealand in nineteen eighty seven and settling 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.720 in Parmesan North, where he joined the local pathology practice. 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:23.160 Pathologists are specialist doctors who diagnose and study human diseases 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:27.600 and conditions. The job is extremely varied and can range 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:31.560 from testing tissue and fluid samples to diagnosing diseases and 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.440 investigating deaths. Those deaths might be due to an illness, 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.040 something sudden or mysterious, or the result of a crime. 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:42.760 The latter generally requires them to stand up in court 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:44.800 and explain an intense. 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:46.640 Detail how and why a person died. 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:50.280 Their evidence is then considered by a jury in determining 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:54.360 whether a person charged is guilty or not. Over the years, 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.480 Kinrick has seen it all, and he's pretty much written 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:01.320 about it all. In twenty eighteen, his first book, The 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.200 Cause of Death, was published, in which he lifted the 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.240 lid on the most unusual stories of death and murder 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.760 had encountered during his career. The Quick in the Dead 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:15.560 followed in twenty twenty, covering the unlikely, extraordinary, obscure, and 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:19.720 often tragic ways humans meet their end, and in June 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:24.440 twenty twenty four, The Final Diagnosis. He's ken rec explaining 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.080 the new book how he chooses which cases of the 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.640 thousands he oversees every year to write about, and why 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:32.440 he includes living patients. 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.520 It's a continuation. They're really a trilogy because they are 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:39.920 all my memoirs of cases that I've been involved with. 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.560 The first book was predominant. It was one hundred percent 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.640 about autopsies and the dead. The second book, The Quick 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.640 and the Dead, and this one, The Final Diagnosis. It's 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:56.040 a mixed bag of autopsies obviously on people who have 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.440 had unusual or suspicious deaths, and some murders as well, 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:07.640 and people who've had unusual diseases, unusual presentation of diseases, 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.280 or actually make a point. So there are quite a 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:18.040 few live people in live patients in my new book 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.400 in which I talk about their diseases, and that's a 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:22.440 little bit different. 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.760 And how do you select the cases for each book? 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.200 I mean, you must have, I imagine, countless examples to 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:31.320 draw upon, but how do you select? You know, how 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.120 did you do it for the final diagnosis? 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.880 Well, every day that I go to work is amazing. 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:41.640 There are always new cases. They are always unbelievable things 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.800 to find and are happening. I guess this is cherry 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.720 picking all those that stick in my mind and are 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:52.160 the most unusual. And as I write them, it's amazing 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:54.800 how new ones come up. And all the time I'm 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:57.479 thinking of ones and new ones, or thinking of ones 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.960 that I've seen in the past, and I think, damn, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:01.960 why didn't I include that one in the book, because 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:06.440 that's just brilliant. But of course you can't write about everything, 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.039 and I can't remember them all, of course, but I 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.640 have to go and research each one when I decided 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:13.240 to write about it. 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:17.080 As you can imagine, it takes a long time to 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:20.200 complete all the training needed to do the job Kinric does. 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.719 It's not for the fainthearted, looking at bodies and parts 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.600 of bodies and slides of mysterious nasties found within bodies 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.880 all day, and I'm not sure too many kids wake 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.040 up one day and think I want to be a pathologist. 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.480 I asked Conc how he got into this branch of medicine, 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.719 what inspired him to work mostly with the dead and dying, 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.400 and why he's stayed in the job for so many years. 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:46.840 Yeah, a lot of people ask that. Of course, when 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.120 you go to medical school, everybody wants to be a 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:54.400 neurosurgeon or some sort of fancy surgeon, or deliver babies 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:56.520 or something like that. Nobody ever says, oh, I'm going 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:01.040 to go to medical school and be a pathology And 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.599 it actually wasn't high on my horizon. But I just 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:09.239 started in medical school and I was an Army cadet, 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:13.400 and I had during the vacations, I had to go 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.040 back into the army. And what happened was, as a 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.800 nineteen year old, I was sent out with a squad 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:24.320 to pick up three bodies from an aircraft accident, and 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.160 we had to put them into a bag and take 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:30.640 them off to the mortuary for an autopsy. And that's 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.080 quite a shocking thing for a nineteen year old just 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:35.480 I mean, the year before I'd been a prefect at school, 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:37.760 so it was a little bit of a shock. But 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.360 when I got to the moltuary, there was a pathologist there, 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.080 Kevin Lee, who was outstanding, and he turned what would 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.600 have been a terrible experience into something really amazing, you know, 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.560 getting the bodies together again, working out what had happened, 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:56.520 making and putting a whole context behind what we were 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.360 seeing and what had happened. And I just thought, this 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.760 is just brilliant, and you know, it's stuck in my 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.880 mind and throughout my medical career. I just wanted to 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:06.840 be a pathologist. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.880 Tell me about the training. How do you get to 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:11.400 where you are? 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.800 Well, you first have to get yourself through medical school 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.640 and do your house job and a bit of clinical work, 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.320 and then when you've done that, you have to sign 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:26.560 up with a training a laboratory in a hospital, a 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:30.200 teaching hospital or another hospital, and that takes another five 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.480 years of training, and along the way there are a 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:37.160 couple of pretty stiff exams that you've got to get through, 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:39.080 and at the end of that you're ready to start. 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.040 So it takes thirteen years altogether from the time you 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.640 start medical school to the time that you're ready to 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.079 say I'm a consultant pathologist, and then all you need 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.319 is another forty years experience on top of that. 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.880 I expect that the training is intense, you know, thirteen years, 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:58.320 and then getting into what you want to do. You 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:00.120 will never put off along the way. 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.200 No, you know, there there was quite a difference in 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.400 my day. I come from a generation where you left 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:09.560 school and you went and did your career straight away 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.640 and you got straight into it. So I was a 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.880 consultant by the time I was thirty, whereas the world 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.440 is very different today. You know, a lot of the 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.120 graduates coming out of medical school are a bit older 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.559 and they've done another degree and then they do a 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:26.840 bit of overseas experience, and you know, I've got registrars 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.840 that i'm training that are in their forties, and you know, 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.880 I find that very interesting. But because it's you know, 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.679 when I was forty, I can't imagine sitting down and 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.640 trying to learn all those books and focus on all 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.440 every disease of every organ. But that's what they have 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:41.800 to do. 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:44.560 And what were some of the earlier cases that you 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:46.600 worked on as a pathologist? How do you sort of 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:47.280 start off? 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.199 Yeah, well, during your training you do, of course, you 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.360 do two types of cases that we do. They're the 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.840 cases on the living, the biopsies and the diagnosis of 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.400 cancers and exotic diseases and not so exotic diseases in 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:06.160 the living. And then there are of course the autopsies 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.480 and the diagnoses on the dead. And during your training 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:13.280 you do and you do both. The emphasis is of 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:18.599 course on the living and on making diagnoses from biopsies 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:22.920 and recognizing changes in tissues and discovering just what earth 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.199 is going on with the patient and often that's a 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:27.120 bit of a mystery. 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.640 And you're now considered sort of the leading pathologists to 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.160 New Zealand. Tell me about the work that you've had 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.200 to do over the years to sort of rise through 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.400 the ranks, because it's not just all the crime stuff 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:41.000 that we see in the documentaries and the true crime shows, 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:41.240 is it. 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.080 No, I wouldn't really call myself a leading pathologist. I'm 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.280 an old pathologist, which is perhaps if you hang around 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:52.199 long enough, people will think you the leading pathologists. But no, no, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:57.000 I'm definitely an old pathologist these days, and I guess 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.880 it's pathology has changed a lot in New Zealand over 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:04.480 the last thirty years. When I started doing pathology here, 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.880 we tended to do a bit of everything, so you know, 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.880 you'd be in I worked in Palmerston North Hospital and 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:14.400 we did our diagnostic biopsies and we also did all 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:20.240 the autopsies on all the homicides, the suspicious deaths, the 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:24.800 traffic accidents, the suicides, and these days that's all changed 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:29.600 now there's more and more specialization in the current training. 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.840 The pathologists don't even learn how to do autopsies anymore. 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.880 That's gone. They do that after they've finished their fellowship, 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.920 So after their five year training, after their thirteen years 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.280 from the beginning to the end, they then have to 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:44.840 go and learn how to do autopsies. 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.840 And what would be some of the most high profile 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.880 cases you've worked on that people would know about out there? 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.880 Well, quite a few that I've written about. I guess 0:11:56.240 --> 0:12:01.439 what always comes to mind are the homicides and of course, 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:06.200 the one that everybody always asks about is the Mark 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.880 Lundy case, which I didn't actually do the autopsies on, 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:15.000 although I've been involved in all three of Mark Lundy's trials, 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.880 including going to London and listening to the sitting in 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.480 on the Privy Council for three days, so that that 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.280 was been a pretty interesting one that spanned a good 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:27.480 part of my career. 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.640 In February two thousand and one, Mark Lundy, then aged 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.959 forty three, was arrested in charge with murdering his wife 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:40.000 Christine and their seven year old daughter Amber. The pair 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.360 were hacked to death at Palmston North home, likely with 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:44.599 an axe or tomahawk. 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:46.040 I've covered this. 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.000 Case more extensively in an earlier episode of A Moment 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.599 in Crime, so I'm only giving a brief summary of 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:55.000 the case here. On the night of the murders, Lundy 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:59.240 had checked into a motel in Patni, Wellington. Mobile data 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.360 proved that Lundon he was at the motel at five 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:05.480 point thirty and eight twenty eight pm. A sex worker 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.840 hired by Lundy confirmed he was also there between eleven 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:13.120 thirty pm and one am. Police say that just after 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:17.120 five thirty pm Lundy drove at breakneck speed from his 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:21.199 motel to Palmerston North, killed his family, and arrived back 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:22.880 in Potoni before eight. 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:24.360 Twenty eight pm. 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.800 They contended he killed Christine for her life insurance money 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:29.280 because of financial pressure. 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.559 Four days earlier, the couple had reviewed their life. 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.880 Insurance and agreed Christine's would be raised from two hundred 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:40.280 thousand dollars to five hundred thousand dollars. Lundy killed Amber, 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.400 police said because she had witnessed all or part of 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:44.360 her mother's murder. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:46.960 The prosecution relied. 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.320 Heavily on a particular piece of forensic evidence, a speck 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.120 of body tissue found on one of Lundy's polo shirts, 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.800 which was located in the back seat of his car. 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.880 An international pathologist identified it as Christine Lundy brain tissue, 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:03.600 and it was argued the only way it could have 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.040 ended up on Lundy's shirt was if he himself was 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:11.800 the murderer. Lundy gave evidence at the trial, strenuously denying 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.200 he killed his wife or child. His lawyers were adamant 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.880 that Lundy could not possibly have made the round trip 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:19.520 from Wellington to palmest. 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.600 North and back in just three hours. 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.680 They said contamination could account for the tissue found on 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:30.240 Lundy's shirt. After seven hours of deliberation, the jury found 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.840 Lundy guilty of both murders. He was sentenced to life 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.400 in prison with a minimum non parole period of seventeen years. 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.080 The Court of Appeal rejected Lundy's attempt to overturn his 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.160 conviction and sentence. In fact, they increased his minimum non 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:50.680 parole period to twenty years in twenty thirteen, though the 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:55.000 Privy Council the New Zealand's Court of Last Appeal overturned 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:59.040 the convictions and ordered a retrial that went ahead in 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.640 twenty fifteen, and the Crown expanded the window for the 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:06.320 time of death to fourteen hours, alleging Lundy may have 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.160 returned to Palmerston North early in the morning to murder 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:14.400 his family. The second jury was also convinced beyond reasonable 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.400 doubt by the Crown case and found Lundy guilty of 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:23.000 both murders. Again, Lundy was sent back to prison, where 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:26.760 he remains today. He still maintains his innocence and is 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.600 still trying to clear his name. Kinrich speaks about his 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.520 role in the Lundy case in The Final Diagnosis. This 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.840 is part of his book voiced by an actor. 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.920 Juries are smart. They have seven hundred plus years of 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.960 collective life experience. We all live in a science based 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:48.680 society with remote controls, microwaves, computers, and aeroplanes. We understand 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.560 science and while we may not know exactly how it works, 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.120 we know it does and it can be explained simply 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.000 so we can follow it. It isn't witchcraft, after all. 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.480 Christine's DNA was found in both flips of tissue Lundy's 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.640 shirt was reported that the odds were one billion times 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.480 to one more likely that the DNA was from Christine 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:10.120 Lundy than someone else unrelated to her chosen at random 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.560 from the New Zealand population. This is a massive boost 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.680 to the case against Lundy, and the analytical level of 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.600 certainty shows how reliable DNA matching can be. The DNA 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.360 belond Christine. The Oxford pathologists first brought up the idea 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.880 of sausages and hamburgers as a source of animal brain tissue, 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.680 and that story gained some traction as I still get 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.360 asked about it from time to time. But Mark Lundy 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.760 would have to be the unluckiest man in history to 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.200 have got an accidental contamination with animal brain tissue from 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.320 a hamburger, and then for that tissue also to contain 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:46.200 DNA indistinguishable from his wife's. All I can say is 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:48.400 the DNA on his shirt is human and was of 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:52.000 good quality. The tissue was brain, as the international experts 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.800 have established, and I can say it was uncooked through 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:59.080 microscopic histological examination. I say cooked meats and other foods 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.320 histologically in my daily work, So I am confident of that. 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.840 So I can say with authority that the brain tissue 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:09.239 on the Lundy shirt had emphatically never been cooked. It 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.040 was science applied to the two deposits of brain tissue 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.520 on Mark Lundy's shirt that put paid to his plans 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:18.400 of getting away with murder. Lundy realistically would have never 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:22.480 predicted and therefore planned for, this accidental, minute but unequivital 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.000 soiling of his shirt. That was his most significant mistake. 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.239 I asked Kenrick Moore about Lundy and other stand up 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:31.919 cases from his lengthy career. 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.720 Well, that certainly has been tried a lot, hasn't it. 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.639 I guess from a pathologists point of view, we try 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:44.000 not to have a personal opinion that's based on just 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:46.480 what we've heard, or we think what I look at 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:50.640 is what does the science say. And the science certainly 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.800 has produced evidence that he can has been unable to 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.520 overturn in court. And it really is quite compelling, and 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:04.160 it's very difficult to argue why you have your wife's 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:05.240 brains on your shirt. 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.960 What would be the most bizarre case you've come across 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.200 over the years, in someone living or dead? 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.399 Probably I wrote in my first book about a case 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:20.600 of spontaneous combustion, which is something that pathologists talk about 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.680 but which isn't greatly understood. And this is people who 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:30.440 they thought originally just caught fire spontaneously and burnt slowly 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:35.360 down into a puddle without actually setting fire to any 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.800 of their surroundings. And the science of this has now 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.119 been worked out. And the case that I was called 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:43.879 to I went out to and it was on a 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.960 provincial road out in the manner were two and it 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:52.399 was a man who had been drinking heavily at the 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.159 Shannon Pub and he had picked up a bottle of 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:57.720 vodka and headed off back. And he pulled over to 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.920 the side of the road, drank his bottle of vodka 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.320 and lit up a cigarette and obviously went to sleep. 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.320 The cigarette dropped onto his clothing and it started smoldering, 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.719 you know, but like a candlewick, and he gradually, just 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.960 without gaining consciousness, he gradually just burnt himself to death 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.560 sitting inside the car. The car didn't catch fire, and 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.399 there was just smoke all over the windows, and he 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.000 was basically not quite a puddle of fat, but pretty 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:30.720 close to going that way. And I just never i'd 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:34.520 heard about the spontaneous combustion. I've never seen a case, 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:36.440 and I think that was the closest that I've ever 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:38.800 come to it. That was really weird. 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.600 Yeah, I bet how do you wind down after working 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.359 on something like that? Does it affect you or is 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.320 it just part of the job and you just sort 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:47.920 of carry on? 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:52.960 Yeah. You know, whenever you open up a body, a 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.879 freshly dead body or perhaps a not so freshly dead one, 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.240 there's a suppression or a suspension of your norm normal 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:04.359 physiology and emotion. You know, by physiology, I mean, you 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:06.720 know your body function. What does it tell you to 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.040 do when you open and see your body being opened? 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:10.919 Tells you to run away? You know, you get this 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.920 adrenaline rush of fear and flight, and you want to 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.399 run away, and you've got to suppress that and then 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:21.400 there's the emotional aspect. You're looking at a body being opened, 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.399 and you know, I mean, this is an appalling mutilation 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.159 if you're not used to it, and you've got to 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.280 suppress that. As time goes on, of course, you get 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.800 used to it. I suppose you get inoculated, and I've 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.560 pathologists do get used to this. One of the questions 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:41.280 that I always ask is okay, And people always ask 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:44.400 pathologists exactly this question that you've asked. I ask, why 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:47.719 don't general surgeons get the same thing? I mean, somebody 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.800 gets brought in from a car accident and they've got 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:53.480 a shattered body there, and they open up their abdomen 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.400 and take out bits of bowel and stitch it up 0:20:56.440 --> 0:21:00.360 and so on. Surely they have exactly the same fears 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.760 that that we do, which is, you know, basically this 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.639 is horrific, but you've got to do something. Hm. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:11.080 What would be I imagine some cases are harder than others, 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:13.640 you know, even for someone that's been in the profession 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.440 as long as you is it is it the young people, 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.520 the children that are hardest? Or you know, what, what 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.159 is it that you sort of not struggle with but 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:24.359 you find particularly challenging. 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:29.560 Yeah, I think young children always poignant, aren't they. And yes, 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:33.040 I've had a number of cases where my registerrars have 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:38.600 just been unable to carry out the autopsy. There were 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.959 the three children who died in the man or two 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:45.480 in the pang and a valley when they were swimming 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:48.960 in a in a in the river and part of 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:53.160 the cliff came down and the cliff killed all three 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:55.840 of them. And it's written in my first book, and 0:21:55.880 --> 0:22:00.080 that that was three children from two families. That that 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:03.080 was terrible. My registrars couldn't do those autopsies. I had 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:06.760 to go and do those. And of course that that 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:11.240 does affect you, because it's it's nobody deserves nobody deserves 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:13.360 to die to start with. But when it's a young 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:16.840 child like that and it's just so pointless, it's a 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.440 it's not a good feel. And those are the ones 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.040 that I remember, of course. 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:23.840 I guess. So the flip side of it is, you know, 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:27.040 to get answers and to help the families get closure, 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:28.800 somebody has to do that job, right. 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.720 Well, yeah, that's right. I mean I guess one of 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:36.600 the ways I deal with it is I don't see 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:40.119 these as cadavers. I mean a body is not an 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:44.440 inanimate object. It really reflects humanity. They are my patients, 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:48.200