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Speaker 1: This episode of A Moment in Crime refers to murders,

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Speaker 1: including the killing of children. It also contains descriptions of

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Speaker 1: post mortem examinations and forensic evidence. This content is intended

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Speaker 1: for a mature audience.

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Speaker 2: Mark Lundy did it.

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Speaker 1: He murdered his wife, Christine and their young daughter Amber

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Speaker 1: and their Parmeston North home. A New Zealand's leading pathologist,

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Speaker 1: after working on the Lundee case for years, can tell

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Speaker 1: you why he's sure, without a shadow of a doubt,

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Speaker 1: Lundy is a double murderer. I know there's many people

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Speaker 1: out there that don't believe Lundee is responsible. They think

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Speaker 1: that he's been stitched up, that someone else did it.

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Speaker 1: Since the day it happened, Lundy himself has protested his innocence,

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Speaker 1: but he was the only one who could have done it.

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Speaker 1: That's what two High Court juries have decided at separate

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Speaker 1: murder trials, and Kenrick temple Camp backs them based on

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Speaker 1: the science of the case. In this episode of A

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Speaker 1: Moment in Crime, you'll hear more about Kenrick's work on

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Speaker 1: the Lundy case, dubbed Operation Winter by police, and you'll

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Speaker 1: find out what he thinks about another infamous New Zealand

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Speaker 1: double murder the polarizing case of Scott Watson, convicted of

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Speaker 1: killing Ben Smart and Olivia Hope during New Year's celebrations

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety nine. Usually, episodes of a Moment of

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Speaker 1: Crime focus on old cases, cold cases, or recent cases

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Speaker 1: of national and international significance involving Keiwi offenders or victims. Today,

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Speaker 1: I'll take you to the other side of the cordon

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Speaker 1: inside Kinrick's world. Since the nineteen eighties, he's been tasked

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Speaker 1: with establishing the cause of death for countless men, women

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Speaker 1: and children. He's also been called in to solve the

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Speaker 1: baffling health mysteries of the living, and he spends hours

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Speaker 1: in a lab each week examining various samples and swabs

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Speaker 1: to diagnose everything from viruses to cancer. Kenrick has written

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Speaker 1: three books on the work he does and has pa

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Speaker 1: about His latest is called The Final Diagnosis and is

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Speaker 1: available now with the booker. It was the perfect opportunity

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Speaker 1: to talk with a man who knows more about murder

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Speaker 1: than most people in New Zealand. I'll include information in

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Speaker 1: the show notes about his books and a link to

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Speaker 1: my story about Kenrick's vast and varied career.

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Speaker 2: If there's other cases you.

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Speaker 1: Want to hear about on a Moment in Crime. Email

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Speaker 1: me at Anna dot leask at enzme dot co dot Nz.

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Speaker 1: From the who dunnets in cold cases to the strange

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Speaker 1: and quirky, crime is one of the most fascinating corners

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Speaker 1: of society and the news. From the New Zealand Herald

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Speaker 1: newsroom comes a Moment in Crime, a podcast delving into

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Speaker 1: some of New Zealand's most high profile cases, offenses and offenders.

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Speaker 1: Each month, I'll take you inside some of our most

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Speaker 1: infamous incidents, notorious offenders, and behind the scenes of high

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Speaker 1: profile trials and events to show you what's really happening

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Speaker 1: in your backyard. Kindric temple Camp was born in Zimbabwe,

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Speaker 1: emigrating to New Zealand in nineteen eighty seven and settling

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Speaker 1: in Parmesan North, where he joined the local pathology practice.

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Speaker 1: Pathologists are specialist doctors who diagnose and study human diseases

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Speaker 1: and conditions. The job is extremely varied and can range

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Speaker 1: from testing tissue and fluid samples to diagnosing diseases and

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Speaker 1: investigating deaths. Those deaths might be due to an illness,

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Speaker 1: something sudden or mysterious, or the result of a crime.

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Speaker 1: The latter generally requires them to stand up in court

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Speaker 1: and explain an intense.

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Speaker 2: Detail how and why a person died.

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Speaker 1: Their evidence is then considered by a jury in determining

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Speaker 1: whether a person charged is guilty or not. Over the years,

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Speaker 1: Kinrick has seen it all, and he's pretty much written

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Speaker 1: about it all. In twenty eighteen, his first book, The

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Speaker 1: Cause of Death, was published, in which he lifted the

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Speaker 1: lid on the most unusual stories of death and murder

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Speaker 1: had encountered during his career. The Quick in the Dead

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Speaker 1: followed in twenty twenty, covering the unlikely, extraordinary, obscure, and

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Speaker 1: often tragic ways humans meet their end, and in June

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, The Final Diagnosis. He's ken rec explaining

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Speaker 1: the new book how he chooses which cases of the

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Speaker 1: thousands he oversees every year to write about, and why

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Speaker 1: he includes living patients.

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Speaker 3: It's a continuation. They're really a trilogy because they are

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Speaker 3: all my memoirs of cases that I've been involved with.

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Speaker 3: The first book was predominant. It was one hundred percent

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Speaker 3: about autopsies and the dead. The second book, The Quick

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Speaker 3: and the Dead, and this one, The Final Diagnosis. It's

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Speaker 3: a mixed bag of autopsies obviously on people who have

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Speaker 3: had unusual or suspicious deaths, and some murders as well,

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Speaker 3: and people who've had unusual diseases, unusual presentation of diseases,

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Speaker 3: or actually make a point. So there are quite a

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Speaker 3: few live people in live patients in my new book

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Speaker 3: in which I talk about their diseases, and that's a

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Speaker 3: little bit different.

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Speaker 1: And how do you select the cases for each book?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you must have, I imagine, countless examples to

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Speaker 1: draw upon, but how do you select? You know, how

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Speaker 1: did you do it for the final diagnosis?

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Speaker 3: Well, every day that I go to work is amazing.

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Speaker 3: There are always new cases. They are always unbelievable things

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Speaker 3: to find and are happening. I guess this is cherry

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Speaker 3: picking all those that stick in my mind and are

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Speaker 3: the most unusual. And as I write them, it's amazing

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Speaker 3: how new ones come up. And all the time I'm

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Speaker 3: thinking of ones and new ones, or thinking of ones

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Speaker 3: that I've seen in the past, and I think, damn,

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Speaker 3: why didn't I include that one in the book, because

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Speaker 3: that's just brilliant. But of course you can't write about everything,

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Speaker 3: and I can't remember them all, of course, but I

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Speaker 3: have to go and research each one when I decided

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Speaker 3: to write about it.

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Speaker 1: As you can imagine, it takes a long time to

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Speaker 1: complete all the training needed to do the job Kinric does.

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Speaker 1: It's not for the fainthearted, looking at bodies and parts

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Speaker 1: of bodies and slides of mysterious nasties found within bodies

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Speaker 1: all day, and I'm not sure too many kids wake

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Speaker 1: up one day and think I want to be a pathologist.

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Speaker 1: I asked Conc how he got into this branch of medicine,

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Speaker 1: what inspired him to work mostly with the dead and dying,

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Speaker 1: and why he's stayed in the job for so many years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people ask that. Of course, when

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Speaker 3: you go to medical school, everybody wants to be a

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Speaker 3: neurosurgeon or some sort of fancy surgeon, or deliver babies

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Speaker 3: or something like that. Nobody ever says, oh, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to go to medical school and be a pathology And

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Speaker 3: it actually wasn't high on my horizon. But I just

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Speaker 3: started in medical school and I was an Army cadet,

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Speaker 3: and I had during the vacations, I had to go

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Speaker 3: back into the army. And what happened was, as a

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Speaker 3: nineteen year old, I was sent out with a squad

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Speaker 3: to pick up three bodies from an aircraft accident, and

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Speaker 3: we had to put them into a bag and take

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Speaker 3: them off to the mortuary for an autopsy. And that's

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Speaker 3: quite a shocking thing for a nineteen year old just

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Speaker 3: I mean, the year before I'd been a prefect at school,

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Speaker 3: so it was a little bit of a shock. But

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Speaker 3: when I got to the moltuary, there was a pathologist there,

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Speaker 3: Kevin Lee, who was outstanding, and he turned what would

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Speaker 3: have been a terrible experience into something really amazing, you know,

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Speaker 3: getting the bodies together again, working out what had happened,

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Speaker 3: making and putting a whole context behind what we were

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Speaker 3: seeing and what had happened. And I just thought, this

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Speaker 3: is just brilliant, and you know, it's stuck in my

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Speaker 3: mind and throughout my medical career. I just wanted to

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Speaker 3: be a pathologist.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the training. How do you get to

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Speaker 1: where you are?

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Speaker 3: Well, you first have to get yourself through medical school

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Speaker 3: and do your house job and a bit of clinical work,

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Speaker 3: and then when you've done that, you have to sign

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Speaker 3: up with a training a laboratory in a hospital, a

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Speaker 3: teaching hospital or another hospital, and that takes another five

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Speaker 3: years of training, and along the way there are a

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Speaker 3: couple of pretty stiff exams that you've got to get through,

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Speaker 3: and at the end of that you're ready to start.

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Speaker 3: So it takes thirteen years altogether from the time you

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Speaker 3: start medical school to the time that you're ready to

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Speaker 3: say I'm a consultant pathologist, and then all you need

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Speaker 3: is another forty years experience on top of that.

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Speaker 1: I expect that the training is intense, you know, thirteen years,

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Speaker 1: and then getting into what you want to do. You

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Speaker 1: will never put off along the way.

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Speaker 3: No, you know, there there was quite a difference in

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Speaker 3: my day. I come from a generation where you left

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Speaker 3: school and you went and did your career straight away

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Speaker 3: and you got straight into it. So I was a

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Speaker 3: consultant by the time I was thirty, whereas the world

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Speaker 3: is very different today. You know, a lot of the

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Speaker 3: graduates coming out of medical school are a bit older

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Speaker 3: and they've done another degree and then they do a

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Speaker 3: bit of overseas experience, and you know, I've got registrars

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Speaker 3: that i'm training that are in their forties, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I find that very interesting. But because it's you know,

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Speaker 3: when I was forty, I can't imagine sitting down and

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Speaker 3: trying to learn all those books and focus on all

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Speaker 3: every disease of every organ. But that's what they have

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 1: And what were some of the earlier cases that you

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Speaker 1: worked on as a pathologist? How do you sort of

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Speaker 1: start off?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, during your training you do, of course, you

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Speaker 3: do two types of cases that we do. They're the

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Speaker 3: cases on the living, the biopsies and the diagnosis of

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Speaker 3: cancers and exotic diseases and not so exotic diseases in

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Speaker 3: the living. And then there are of course the autopsies

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Speaker 3: and the diagnoses on the dead. And during your training

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Speaker 3: you do and you do both. The emphasis is of

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Speaker 3: course on the living and on making diagnoses from biopsies

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Speaker 3: and recognizing changes in tissues and discovering just what earth

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Speaker 3: is going on with the patient and often that's a

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Speaker 3: bit of a mystery.

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Speaker 1: And you're now considered sort of the leading pathologists to

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Speaker 1: New Zealand. Tell me about the work that you've had

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Speaker 1: to do over the years to sort of rise through

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Speaker 1: the ranks, because it's not just all the crime stuff

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Speaker 1: that we see in the documentaries and the true crime shows,

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Speaker 1: is it.

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Speaker 3: No, I wouldn't really call myself a leading pathologist. I'm

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Speaker 3: an old pathologist, which is perhaps if you hang around

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Speaker 3: long enough, people will think you the leading pathologists. But no, no,

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Speaker 3: I'm definitely an old pathologist these days, and I guess

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Speaker 3: it's pathology has changed a lot in New Zealand over

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Speaker 3: the last thirty years. When I started doing pathology here,

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Speaker 3: we tended to do a bit of everything, so you know,

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Speaker 3: you'd be in I worked in Palmerston North Hospital and

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Speaker 3: we did our diagnostic biopsies and we also did all

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Speaker 3: the autopsies on all the homicides, the suspicious deaths, the

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Speaker 3: traffic accidents, the suicides, and these days that's all changed

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Speaker 3: now there's more and more specialization in the current training.

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Speaker 3: The pathologists don't even learn how to do autopsies anymore.

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Speaker 3: That's gone. They do that after they've finished their fellowship,

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Speaker 3: So after their five year training, after their thirteen years

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Speaker 3: from the beginning to the end, they then have to

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Speaker 3: go and learn how to do autopsies.

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Speaker 1: And what would be some of the most high profile

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Speaker 1: cases you've worked on that people would know about out there?

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Speaker 3: Well, quite a few that I've written about. I guess

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Speaker 3: what always comes to mind are the homicides and of course,

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Speaker 3: the one that everybody always asks about is the Mark

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Speaker 3: Lundy case, which I didn't actually do the autopsies on,

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Speaker 3: although I've been involved in all three of Mark Lundy's trials,

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Speaker 3: including going to London and listening to the sitting in

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Speaker 3: on the Privy Council for three days, so that that

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Speaker 3: was been a pretty interesting one that spanned a good

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Speaker 3: part of my career.

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Speaker 1: In February two thousand and one, Mark Lundy, then aged

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Speaker 1: forty three, was arrested in charge with murdering his wife

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Speaker 1: Christine and their seven year old daughter Amber. The pair

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Speaker 1: were hacked to death at Palmston North home, likely with

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Speaker 1: an axe or tomahawk.

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Speaker 2: I've covered this.

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Speaker 1: Case more extensively in an earlier episode of A Moment

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Speaker 1: in Crime, so I'm only giving a brief summary of

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Speaker 1: the case here. On the night of the murders, Lundy

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Speaker 1: had checked into a motel in Patni, Wellington. Mobile data

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Speaker 1: proved that Lundon he was at the motel at five

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Speaker 1: point thirty and eight twenty eight pm. A sex worker

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Speaker 1: hired by Lundy confirmed he was also there between eleven

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Speaker 1: thirty pm and one am. Police say that just after

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Speaker 1: five thirty pm Lundy drove at breakneck speed from his

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Speaker 1: motel to Palmerston North, killed his family, and arrived back

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Speaker 1: in Potoni before eight.

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Speaker 2: Twenty eight pm.

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Speaker 1: They contended he killed Christine for her life insurance money

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Speaker 1: because of financial pressure.

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Speaker 2: Four days earlier, the couple had reviewed their life.

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Speaker 1: Insurance and agreed Christine's would be raised from two hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars to five hundred thousand dollars. Lundy killed Amber,

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Speaker 1: police said because she had witnessed all or part of

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Speaker 1: her mother's murder.

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Speaker 2: The prosecution relied.

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Speaker 1: Heavily on a particular piece of forensic evidence, a speck

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Speaker 1: of body tissue found on one of Lundy's polo shirts,

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Speaker 1: which was located in the back seat of his car.

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Speaker 1: An international pathologist identified it as Christine Lundy brain tissue,

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Speaker 1: and it was argued the only way it could have

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Speaker 1: ended up on Lundy's shirt was if he himself was

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Speaker 1: the murderer. Lundy gave evidence at the trial, strenuously denying

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Speaker 1: he killed his wife or child. His lawyers were adamant

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Speaker 1: that Lundy could not possibly have made the round trip

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Speaker 1: from Wellington to palmest.

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Speaker 2: North and back in just three hours.

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Speaker 1: They said contamination could account for the tissue found on

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Speaker 1: Lundy's shirt. After seven hours of deliberation, the jury found

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Speaker 1: Lundy guilty of both murders. He was sentenced to life

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Speaker 1: in prison with a minimum non parole period of seventeen years.

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Speaker 1: The Court of Appeal rejected Lundy's attempt to overturn his

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Speaker 1: conviction and sentence. In fact, they increased his minimum non

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Speaker 1: parole period to twenty years in twenty thirteen, though the

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Speaker 1: Privy Council the New Zealand's Court of Last Appeal overturned

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Speaker 1: the convictions and ordered a retrial that went ahead in

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, and the Crown expanded the window for the

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Speaker 1: time of death to fourteen hours, alleging Lundy may have

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Speaker 1: returned to Palmerston North early in the morning to murder

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Speaker 1: his family. The second jury was also convinced beyond reasonable

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Speaker 1: doubt by the Crown case and found Lundy guilty of

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Speaker 1: both murders. Again, Lundy was sent back to prison, where

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Speaker 1: he remains today. He still maintains his innocence and is

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Speaker 1: still trying to clear his name. Kinrich speaks about his

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Speaker 1: role in the Lundy case in The Final Diagnosis. This

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Speaker 1: is part of his book voiced by an actor.

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Speaker 4: Juries are smart. They have seven hundred plus years of

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Speaker 4: collective life experience. We all live in a science based

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Speaker 4: society with remote controls, microwaves, computers, and aeroplanes. We understand

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Speaker 4: science and while we may not know exactly how it works,

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Speaker 4: we know it does and it can be explained simply

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Speaker 4: so we can follow it. It isn't witchcraft, after all.

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Speaker 4: Christine's DNA was found in both flips of tissue Lundy's

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Speaker 4: shirt was reported that the odds were one billion times

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Speaker 4: to one more likely that the DNA was from Christine

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Speaker 4: Lundy than someone else unrelated to her chosen at random

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Speaker 4: from the New Zealand population. This is a massive boost

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Speaker 4: to the case against Lundy, and the analytical level of

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Speaker 4: certainty shows how reliable DNA matching can be. The DNA

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Speaker 4: belond Christine. The Oxford pathologists first brought up the idea

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Speaker 4: of sausages and hamburgers as a source of animal brain tissue,

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Speaker 4: and that story gained some traction as I still get

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Speaker 4: asked about it from time to time. But Mark Lundy

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Speaker 4: would have to be the unluckiest man in history to

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Speaker 4: have got an accidental contamination with animal brain tissue from

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Speaker 4: a hamburger, and then for that tissue also to contain

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Speaker 4: DNA indistinguishable from his wife's. All I can say is

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Speaker 4: the DNA on his shirt is human and was of

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Speaker 4: good quality. The tissue was brain, as the international experts

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Speaker 4: have established, and I can say it was uncooked through

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Speaker 4: microscopic histological examination. I say cooked meats and other foods

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Speaker 4: histologically in my daily work, So I am confident of that.

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Speaker 4: So I can say with authority that the brain tissue

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Speaker 4: on the Lundy shirt had emphatically never been cooked. It

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Speaker 4: was science applied to the two deposits of brain tissue

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Speaker 4: on Mark Lundy's shirt that put paid to his plans

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Speaker 4: of getting away with murder. Lundy realistically would have never

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Speaker 4: predicted and therefore planned for, this accidental, minute but unequivital

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Speaker 4: soiling of his shirt. That was his most significant mistake.

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Speaker 1: I asked Kenrick Moore about Lundy and other stand up

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Speaker 1: cases from his lengthy career.

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Speaker 3: Well, that certainly has been tried a lot, hasn't it.

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Speaker 3: I guess from a pathologists point of view, we try

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Speaker 3: not to have a personal opinion that's based on just

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Speaker 3: what we've heard, or we think what I look at

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Speaker 3: is what does the science say. And the science certainly

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Speaker 3: has produced evidence that he can has been unable to

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Speaker 3: overturn in court. And it really is quite compelling, and

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Speaker 3: it's very difficult to argue why you have your wife's

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Speaker 3: brains on your shirt.

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Speaker 1: What would be the most bizarre case you've come across

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Speaker 1: over the years, in someone living or dead?

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Speaker 3: Probably I wrote in my first book about a case

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Speaker 3: of spontaneous combustion, which is something that pathologists talk about

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Speaker 3: but which isn't greatly understood. And this is people who

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Speaker 3: they thought originally just caught fire spontaneously and burnt slowly

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Speaker 3: down into a puddle without actually setting fire to any

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Speaker 3: of their surroundings. And the science of this has now

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Speaker 3: been worked out. And the case that I was called

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Speaker 3: to I went out to and it was on a

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Speaker 3: provincial road out in the manner were two and it

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Speaker 3: was a man who had been drinking heavily at the

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Speaker 3: Shannon Pub and he had picked up a bottle of

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Speaker 3: vodka and headed off back. And he pulled over to

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Speaker 3: the side of the road, drank his bottle of vodka

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Speaker 3: and lit up a cigarette and obviously went to sleep.

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Speaker 3: The cigarette dropped onto his clothing and it started smoldering,

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Speaker 3: you know, but like a candlewick, and he gradually, just

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Speaker 3: without gaining consciousness, he gradually just burnt himself to death

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Speaker 3: sitting inside the car. The car didn't catch fire, and

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Speaker 3: there was just smoke all over the windows, and he

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Speaker 3: was basically not quite a puddle of fat, but pretty

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Speaker 3: close to going that way. And I just never i'd

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Speaker 3: heard about the spontaneous combustion. I've never seen a case,

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Speaker 3: and I think that was the closest that I've ever

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Speaker 3: come to it. That was really weird.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet how do you wind down after working

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Speaker 1: on something like that? Does it affect you or is

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Speaker 1: it just part of the job and you just sort

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Speaker 1: of carry on?

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Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, whenever you open up a body, a

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Speaker 3: freshly dead body or perhaps a not so freshly dead one,

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Speaker 3: there's a suppression or a suspension of your norm normal

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Speaker 3: physiology and emotion. You know, by physiology, I mean, you

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Speaker 3: know your body function. What does it tell you to

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Speaker 3: do when you open and see your body being opened?

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Speaker 3: Tells you to run away? You know, you get this

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Speaker 3: adrenaline rush of fear and flight, and you want to

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Speaker 3: run away, and you've got to suppress that and then

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Speaker 3: there's the emotional aspect. You're looking at a body being opened,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I mean, this is an appalling mutilation

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Speaker 3: if you're not used to it, and you've got to

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Speaker 3: suppress that. As time goes on, of course, you get

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Speaker 3: used to it. I suppose you get inoculated, and I've

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Speaker 3: pathologists do get used to this. One of the questions

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Speaker 3: that I always ask is okay, And people always ask

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Speaker 3: pathologists exactly this question that you've asked. I ask, why

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Speaker 3: don't general surgeons get the same thing? I mean, somebody

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Speaker 3: gets brought in from a car accident and they've got

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Speaker 3: a shattered body there, and they open up their abdomen

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Speaker 3: and take out bits of bowel and stitch it up

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Speaker 3: and so on. Surely they have exactly the same fears

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Speaker 3: that that we do, which is, you know, basically this

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Speaker 3: is horrific, but you've got to do something. Hm.

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Speaker 1: What would be I imagine some cases are harder than others,

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Speaker 1: you know, even for someone that's been in the profession

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Speaker 1: as long as you is it is it the young people,

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Speaker 1: the children that are hardest? Or you know, what, what

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Speaker 1: is it that you sort of not struggle with but

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Speaker 1: you find particularly challenging.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think young children always poignant, aren't they. And yes,

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Speaker 3: I've had a number of cases where my registerrars have

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Speaker 3: just been unable to carry out the autopsy. There were

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Speaker 3: the three children who died in the man or two

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Speaker 3: in the pang and a valley when they were swimming

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Speaker 3: in a in a in the river and part of

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Speaker 3: the cliff came down and the cliff killed all three

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Speaker 3: of them. And it's written in my first book, and

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Speaker 3: that that was three children from two families. That that

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Speaker 3: was terrible. My registrars couldn't do those autopsies. I had

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Speaker 3: to go and do those. And of course that that

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Speaker 3: does affect you, because it's it's nobody deserves nobody deserves

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Speaker 3: to die to start with. But when it's a young

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Speaker 3: child like that and it's just so pointless, it's a

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Speaker 3: it's not a good feel. And those are the ones

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Speaker 3: that I remember, of course.

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Speaker 1: I guess. So the flip side of it is, you know,

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Speaker 1: to get answers and to help the families get closure,

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Speaker 1: somebody has to do that job, right.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's right. I mean I guess one of

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Speaker 3: the ways I deal with it is I don't see

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Speaker 3: these as cadavers. I mean a body is not an

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Speaker 3: inanimate object. It really reflects humanity. They are my patients,

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Speaker 3: and I am a doctor, and I am looking after them,

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Speaker 3: and I'm finding what happened, and I'm telling their story.

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Speaker 3: I'm their last advocate, and I will tell the truth

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Speaker 3: about them and what happened, and do it respect fully,

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Speaker 3: and then they can be laid to rest, with a

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Speaker 3: story known and everything tidied away. And we understand. Understanding

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Speaker 3: is important part of loss and grief is of course understanding,

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Speaker 3: isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Professionally can Reck and I have a few things in common.

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Speaker 1: We both, in our own ways, investigate and tell the

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Speaker 1: stories of the dead. We see and hear gruesome details

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Speaker 1: of murders. We bear witness to the unfathomable grief of

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Speaker 1: people who have lost a parent, sibling, or child to

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Speaker 1: a violent act. Are questioned almost daily about New Zealand's

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Speaker 1: most high profile offenders and offenses. In my case, it's

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Speaker 1: usually about whether I think a particular person is guilty

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Speaker 1: of a crime, or if a jury got the right

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Speaker 1: verdict and a murder trial I've been reporting on. Ken

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Speaker 1: Rick gets that a lot too, And there's another question

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Speaker 1: He's often asked.

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Speaker 3: Everybody wants to talk about murder. Whenever I go to meetings,

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Speaker 3: nobody ever says, have you seen any amazing diseases recently?

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Speaker 3: Have you seen any amazing tumors? You know, what's the

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Speaker 3: most exotic disease you've come across? Nobody ever asks that.

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Speaker 3: They always ask about murder. Everybody wants to know We're

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Speaker 3: fascinated by murder. And the problem is that all the

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Speaker 3: murders that I've done, I've dealt with in my first

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Speaker 3: two books. So I thought, what on earth can I

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Speaker 3: do in the third book? And what is At a

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Speaker 3: lot of the Lions and Rotary and other meeting probus

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Speaker 3: meetings that I go to, people have always asked me,

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Speaker 3: you know how to commit the perfect murder? And the

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Speaker 3: answer is yes, I do, but I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: tell you. But what I can tell you is look

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Speaker 3: at a number of famous and not so famous murders

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Speaker 3: in New Zealand and tell you what the murderers did wrong,

437
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 3: and then from that you can work out what you

438
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 3: need to do for your perfect murder.

439
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: The prosecution of Scott Watson is one of the cases

440
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: Kenrick delves into in his latest book, Watson was jailed

441
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: for life for the minimum non parole period of seventeen

442
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: years for the murders of Olivia Hope seventeen and Ben

443
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: Smart twenty one. The friends disappeared after boarding a stranger's

444
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: yacht early on January one, nineteen ninety nine, after marking

445
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: the new year with friends at Ferno Lodge, a century

446
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: old boat access only resort in the Endeavor in Let.

447
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 2: Their bodies have never been found.

448
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: Watson has always denied killing or even meeting Hope and Smart.

449
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: He's repeatedly been denied parole since he became eligible, and

450
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 1: continues to fight to clear his name. Watson's latest appeal

451
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: actually began the day that I interviewed Kinrick. At the

452
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: time of recording this podcast, a decision had not yet

453
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: been made. I'll include a link in the show notes

454
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: for the latest on this long running saga if you'd

455
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: like to read more. But here is Kinrick explaining why

456
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: he decided to cover the Sounds case in his book.

457
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 3: The Scott Watson case was one that I selected to

458
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 3: talk about, not because I have any inside knowledge or

459
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: any particular views about And it's interesting to note that

460
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 3: the Scott Watson case is going to the Court of

461
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 3: Appeal today, Yes, which is interesting, and there were a

462
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 3: couple of things that I wanted to a couple of

463
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 3: points I wanted to make about Scott Watson's case. It's

464
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 3: not what was done wrong, it was just I think

465
00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 3: how the evidence plays out, particularly eyewitness evidence, and everybody

466
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 3: knows eyewitnesses are not terribly reliable, and that's really what

467
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 3: I've written about in the book can Reck.

468
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: Are the criminal cases that you've worked on with a

469
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: forensic evidence tells you clearly one thing, but the jury

470
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: decides the opposite when they come back with a verdict.

471
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 3: You know, I personally haven't had one of those, which

472
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 3: is interesting. Every case that I've been involved with has

473
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: the evidence that we've collected at all topsy, and examination

474
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 3: of the scene and the police investigations, it's all made sense.

475
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 3: And every case I've been involved with has had a conviction.

476
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 3: So I've never come across a case where the evidence

477
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: has been rejected, and I'm quite proud of that because

478
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 3: I think that means that the evidence we put forward

479
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 3: was bust in the first instance, and in a murder case,

480
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 3: the police and the prosecutor will look very carefully at

481
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 3: the autopsy what the pathologist says, how it all ties

482
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: together before making their decision. And I think that I'm

483
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 3: quite proud of the fact that so far, well I'm

484
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 3: not doing homicides at the moment anymore, that the conviction

485
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 3: rate has been pretty well one hundred percent. There are

486
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 3: cases I'm aware of where I think it's gone the

487
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 3: wrong way, but I wasn't involved with those.

488
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: In the final diagnosis. You talk about why circumstantial is

489
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: often the most compelling and steadfast form of evidence. Tell

490
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: me more about that.

491
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know circumstantial evidence. A lot of people say, oh,

492
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: you hear this all the time. He was found guilty,

493
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 3: but the evidence was only circumstantial. Well, circumstantial evidence is

494
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 3: very good. Eyewitness evidence is extremely bad, and that's well known.

495
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 3: The psychologists know about it. There's been many tests of it,

496
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 3: and of course I talk about it with the Sounds murder.

497
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: Eyewitness evidence is not good. There is one type of

498
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: eyewitness evidence that's outstanding, of course, and that is security cameras,

499
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 3: and that's changed everything, and I write a bit about

500
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 3: that too. But circumstantial evidence involves clues that you cannot manufacture,

501
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: that are left by mistake behind, and there's nothing that

502
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 3: you can do. You didn't intend them to be there,

503
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 3: but added together, they form a very compelling argument. Like,

504
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: for instance, in Mark Lundy's case, two specs of brain

505
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 3: tissue on his shirt is circumstantial evidence, but it's pretty compelling.

506
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 3: The DNA analysis of that tissue is pretty compelling. The

507
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 3: fact that his wife and his daughter had chips of

508
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 3: paint in their injuries in their head similar to that

509
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 3: with which Mark Lundy's tools were painted, is circumstantial evidence.

510
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 3: It's not gotcha evidence. But all of these things start

511
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: adding up, and when you get a whole pile of

512
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: circumstantial facts coming together, it becomes very hard to say, well,

513
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 3: can there be another explanation? And the answer is usually

514
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 3: not really.

515
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, because some of our most high profile cases have

516
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: been based on circumstantial evidence, haven't they. If you look

517
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: at you know, David Bain and his family, there were

518
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: no witnesses. We've had one in christ which recently where

519
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: there's still nobody, and there's been a man convicted of murder,

520
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: all on circumstantial evidence because there's nobody, And it's interesting

521
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: that you are sort of explaining that that's better evidence

522
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: than witnesses, because humans do make errors, don't they. I

523
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: think that's what people don't really understand, is that that

524
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: eyewitness stuff isn't always as reliable as you might think.

525
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 3: No, that's right. And I talk in my book about

526
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 3: what o' neil tyson, who's a famous astrophysicist and presenter

527
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 3: in the United States. He talks about how he was

528
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: called up for jury service in the United States. And

529
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 3: the judge said to the jurors before they were appointed

530
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 3: in this case, there is only one witness, and that

531
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: is an eyewitness to the robbery or the event, whatever

532
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 3: it was. Do any of you have a problem with that?

533
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 3: And he put up his hand and he said, if

534
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 3: you've only got one eyewitness, and I've got a problem

535
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: with that, because in the court of law, eyewitness evidence

536
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 3: may be important, but in the court of science it's

537
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: worth nothing. And if you've only got one eyewitness, it

538
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: doesn't prove it's not going to prove anything. And the

539
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 3: judge then turned around and said, oh, thank you for that.

540
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 3: You'll be dismissed. And he said to the other juris,

541
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 3: does anybody else want two eyewitnesses? And one of the

542
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: juris said, hang on, he didn't say that, and within

543
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: seconds of having explained why the judge as an ear witness,

544
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 3: if you like, had got it wrong. He didn't get

545
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 3: it either, And that's what humans do. We actually don't

546
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: get it right. We don't hear things right, we don't

547
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 3: see things right.

548
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: So I think in court cases it's always better to

549
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: trust the science, isn't it.

550
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 3: Well, the good thing about science is that it's true

551
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 3: whether you believe it or not, and it never changes.

552
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: So yes, that is correct. And of course, getting back

553
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: to the circumstantial evidence, the value of that is one

554
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 3: of the analogies is that each piece of circumstantial evidence

555
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 3: is like a thread in a rope, but itself it's

556
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 3: not hugely strong. You plat them all together you get

557
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 3: something that's actually quite strong and very difficult to break.

558
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: And just going back to this perfect murder concept, do

559
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: you write a lot about that?

560
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: Is that even possible at this.

561
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: Dan and age, with all the technology out there and

562
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: experts like yourself, you know, working to lock up people

563
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: that murders.

564
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 3: Well, the perfect murder, of course it's possible, and of it,

565
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: by definition, it will be one that I've never seen

566
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 3: because you won't recognize it for what it is. And

567
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 3: you know. One of the stories I like to tell

568
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 3: is we actually can be quite bad at recognizing that

569
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 3: a murder has occurred, and they've sort of semi humorous

570
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 3: example that I use as Jack and the Beanstalk, which

571
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 3: is a story that we tell our children. I tell

572
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 3: my twenty twenty month old daughter that frequently. She loves

573
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 3: the story. But this is a story of a young

574
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 3: boy who gets involved in three different home invasions, steals

575
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 3: from the homeowner, who chases him, and then he is

576
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 3: murdered by the young boy. And this is not recognized

577
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 3: as it's a straightforward homicide with home invasion. This just

578
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 3: isn't recognized as a murder. It's put out as something

579
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 3: quite moral in fact, and if you look at it,

580
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: that's the perfect murder. And what you have to do

581
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 3: in society. If you interachieve a perfect murder, it must

582
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: be something that nobody will recognize. I'll look at it

583
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 3: and say, no, it looks all right.

584
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,479
Speaker 1: Crime is something that fascinates us all and in recent

585
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: years has been a real influx and true crime content documentaries,

586
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: television series, movies, and podcasts, and there thousands focused on

587
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: specific incidents or offenders and then there's the fictional crime shows,

588
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: the Law and Orders, the CSIS, the Special Victor Unit,

589
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: Criminal Minds, and countless others popping up week on week.

590
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: In almost every iteration, there's a rock star pathologist who

591
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: manages to crack the case with an hours, tying up

592
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: every loose end nicely and neatly.

593
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: Before they go home for the day.

594
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: But how does it work in the real world? Do

595
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: can reckon as colleagues find that golden taketive evidence as

596
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: quickly is it even possible? And does it create unhelpful

597
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: myths about their important work?

598
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 3: The shows do seem to be pretty well never ending.

599
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 3: I gather silent witnesses on its twenty seventh season now,

600
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 3: which is it's just unbelievable. You know, somebody's got it

601
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 3: must have very fertile imagination. No, it's not like that

602
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: at all. It's everything has to be done meticulously, of course,

603
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 3: but it's always a big puzzle until the end, and

604
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 3: it all comes together only very slowly. And I guess

605
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 3: what The shows don't show you because they can't. They

606
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 3: can't show you that the investigations that pathologists do have

607
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: got a very liquid component to them, and the smell

608
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 3: is missing as well. You know, it is quite different

609
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: from that. They very sanitized, I guess is the term

610
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: I'm looking for. The pathologists never seem very messy to me,

611
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 3: but I seem to get splashed quite a lot.

612
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: And what are the best and worst parts of your job?

613
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 3: I guess the best part is the absolute unknown of

614
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 3: what's coming every day. That it could be a quiet

615
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 3: day with nothing, but most of the time something completely

616
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 3: unknown comes up. Now a lot of people say, no,

617
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 3: the ideal job is you work from eight to five

618
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 3: and you know you have your lunch break, and you

619
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 3: know every day is the same as every other. I

620
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: can't imagine anything more boring than that. And the best

621
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 3: part of the job is just the amazing cases that

622
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 3: come up endlessly, and it really is quite fascinating. And

623
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 3: of course there's always a patient behind it, and that

624
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 3: is the physicianally part of it. But I feel like

625
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 3: I've solved a crossword puzzle or a sodoku, a difficult

626
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 3: sudoku when I reach a diagnosis and it's a sort

627
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: of Eureka moment and you feel really great.

628
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, in that respect, it must be quite rewarding, even

629
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: though often very grim.

630
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: I imagine well, yeah, I guess we get immunized to it.

631
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 3: In our particular group, we see thirty six thirty seven

632
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: thousand biopsies on live patients every year, and probably, I

633
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 3: don't know, twenty percent of them have got cancer. Every

634
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 3: one of them's got a difficult story behind them. They're

635
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 3: having the biopsy for a reason, and I guess we

636
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 3: get used to that, and that's probably the routine part

637
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 3: of our work. But still it's really gratifying when you

638
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 3: know that you've got these out and you've got the

639
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: answer and something can be done.

640
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 2: And how has pathology changed over the years.

641
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: You've been in this game for a very long time,

642
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: and I imagine there's been a lot of changes and

643
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: advancers tell me about that.

644
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, of course there have been huge advances, of course,

645
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 3: because there's been all the change with genetics and genomics

646
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 3: and DNA and so on, which has changed our diagnostic

647
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 3: work hugely. But I think you know, probably what people

648
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 3: would understand best is what's happened in murder cases. Thirty

649
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 3: years ago, when there was a murder case, the pathologist

650
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 3: was the first to be called to the scene was

651
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 3: closed off, and the pathologist to be the first in

652
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 3: there to actually look at the body, look at the

653
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 3: way the body was lying, look at the whole scene

654
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 3: around there, so that the injuries and the cause of

655
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 3: death could be closely related to what happened at the scene.

656
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: And that was a critical part of a murder investigation.

657
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 3: That changed about two things thousand to two thousand and

658
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 3: five totally and it's quite different now. Two things changed immensely.

659
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 3: The first one was DNA and now the scientists to

660
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 3: collect DNA off the body of the first on the scene.

661
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,479
Speaker 3: They go in there and they swab the body from

662
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 3: top to bottom, and even small fragments of DNA from

663
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 3: the perpetrator the murderer will be found. That changed it hugely.

664
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 3: The second thing that changed with security cameras. There are

665
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 3: security cameras everywhere, and that of course is the ultimate

666
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: eyewitness evidence that so far is reliable. I'm not saying

667
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 3: they can't be falsified, but so far they proved reliable.

668
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 3: And when there's a homicide, I think the police go

669
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 3: and collect security cameras from everywhere in the whole area

670
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 3: and they all get analyzed. And we saw that, for

671
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 3: instance with the Grace Mulane and Jesse Kempson when Jesse

672
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 3: Kempson murdered Grace Mulane back in December twenty eighteen, he

673
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: had nowhere to go. I mean it was all on

674
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 3: security camera, you know, him meeting up with her and

675
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 3: going in the lift up to the room and so on.

676
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: It was all there, and him going to the warehouse

677
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 3: to buy suitcases and carrying the empty suitcases up and

678
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 3: wheeling the full suitcases down. It was all there there.

679
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 3: You know, what can you say?

680
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: You just absolutely cannot argue with you know, the science

681
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 1: and effects, even though many do no.

682
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 3: And of course the most amazing story wasn't here. It

683
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 3: was to do with Sarah Everard, the young woman who

684
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 3: disappeared near Clapham Common Brixton Hill in London back and

685
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 3: I think it was twenty twenty one, and she disappeared

686
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 3: walking home one night, and I think there were huge

687
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 3: vigils held on Clapham Common. I think Princess Kate went

688
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,959
Speaker 3: to them as well. And what had happened is she'd

689
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 3: been picked up in an area where there were no

690
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 3: security cameras, and of course she had because she was

691
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 3: picked up by a Metropolitan policeman called Wayne Cousins, and

692
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 3: he knew that there were no security cameras in the area,

693
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 3: but unfortunately for him, and yet he had hired a

694
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 3: Vauxhall car to carry the deed out. Unfortunately for him.

695
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 3: The London buses are fitted with security cameras because the

696
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 3: drivers get attacked, and two passing buses, the first bus

697
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 3: on their camera they caught him talking to her standing

698
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 3: next to the Vauxhall and the next bus that went

699
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 3: past got the Vauxhall's registration number and from that they

700
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 3: were able to find out that he had rented the

701
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 3: car and track the car to Hoadwood near Ashford, where

702
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 3: the body was found. And what can you do? I mean,

703
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 3: there are no clues to be found. He would never

704
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 3: have been found until he did it again, which is

705
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 3: what the serial type murders often do. He would never

706
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 3: have been found, but there's no no where to go

707
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 3: it he's absolutely stitched up completely. So that those are

708
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 3: the two big changes.

709
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: What would be the biggest misconception about your job and

710
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: your work that people have?

711
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 3: I think that probably again, it's around life and death.

712
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 3: I think most people know that pathologists do autopsies and

713
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 3: that's our signature dish if you like, and they know

714
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 3: about us dealing with bodies that are dragged out of

715
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 3: the river and shark attacks and all this sort of thing.

716
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 3: But what they don't know about is the work that

717
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 3: we do with living patients, the diagnostic work. Like the

718
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 3: woman with breast cancers. We work out what hormones that

719
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 3: the cancers respond to, We work out what chemotherapeutic drugs

720
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 3: they can use, and we do this on a whole

721
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 3: host of cancers. So we're involved with what sort of

722
00:42:54,719 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 3: backroom technology around diagnosing people and getting them on the

723
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 3: right treatment path. All of that is, you know, it

724
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 3: hasn't got the glamour of investigating a murder, but I

725
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 3: don't think many people know that pathologists do that, or

726
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 3: if they do, it's below the visual horizon.

727
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: And all that work is just so so important, isn't

728
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: it to the community?

729
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 3: And you know it is when it's your biopsy?

730
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: And why did you decide to write about your career?

731
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: You know, this is your third book, as you said,

732
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: part of the trilogy. You're presenting your knowledge, you know,

733
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: in a really deep dive sort of way.

734
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 2: What led you to write the books?

735
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 3: Well? I think it says I often quote Rally who said,

736
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 3: the time takes up all that we have and shuts

737
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 3: the story of our days in a dark and silent tomb.

738
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 3: And that struck me as true of all the many,

739
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 3: many hours are spent doing autopsy. So I would write

740
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 3: out these reports send them to the coroner, and that

741
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 3: was pretty well lit. You know, the families didn't know,

742
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 3: nobody knew what their story were. And I thought, well,

743
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 3: you know, I'm really I'm not an author, I'm a historian.

744
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 3: I'll write down what I saw and how it presented

745
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 3: to me. And I started doing this, and the families

746
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 3: were just so grateful. You know. I'd phone them up

747
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 3: and I'd say, look, I'm writing a story about your

748
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 3: loved one. You know, I'm really sorry to come and

749
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 3: raise this all up again. And they were just so supportive,

750
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 3: and they said, no, you must tell the story, you

751
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 3: must use their name. We want to hear it. All.

752
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 3: We didn't know anything about any of this. And you know,

753
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 3: once I started doing that, one thing led to another,

754
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 3: and of course I ended up then writing more and

755
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 3: more about the living patients too, and talking to them

756
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 3: and writing their stories too, And about half of them

757
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 3: are very happy for me to use their name and

758
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 3: tell their story. And about half of them I changed

759
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 3: the name or fictionalize the setting to protect identities.

760
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: I guess that raises a good point. A lot of

761
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: the work that you would have done over the years

762
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: in the criminal space, if there isn't a guilty plan,

763
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: it doesn't go to trial. People don't often hear, you know,

764
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: the pathology expert evidence, do they, And they don't know

765
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: what's gone on behind the scenes and the evidence that

766
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: was there if it had gone to trial.

767
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's right, And sometimes it works the other

768
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 3: way round. I had dealt with a young child who

769
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 3: had been murdered by his mother's boyfriend, and it was

770
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 3: the second time that he had done carried out the

771
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 3: same type of murder, and the evidence was being heard

772
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 3: before the Justices of the peace who had to make

773
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 3: a determination whether there was enough evidence for him to

774
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 3: go to trial. The man involved had said he was

775
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 3: not guilty, of course, and I came and gave my evidence,

776
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 3: which he sat there and listened to, and then afterwards

777
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 3: he said, no one to change my plea to guilty.

778
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 3: I don't know whether that was because of what I said,

779
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 3: but I was quite clear about what had happened, and

780
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 3: he changed his plea and there never was a formal

781
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 3: trial in the sense of everything being heard. So sometimes

782
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 3: it goes that way too, you know, the story is

783
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 3: just never told.

784
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what do you want people to take away

785
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: from the final diagnosis.

786
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,760
Speaker 3: That's an interesting question. I guess death has been pretty

787
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 3: well sanitized in the West. I mean, we've outsourced it

788
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 3: to funeral directors, to the police, to the doctors and

789
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 3: bodies and the dead or removed from our site. They

790
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 3: go to a place unseen and the whole thing's dealt

791
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 3: with in a very sanitary way. And I think it's

792
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 3: probably not the best way to deal with it. I

793
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 3: would rather that people see death as really part of

794
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 3: being alive. You can't outsource your grief. Understand death, know

795
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 3: about it. It is important to know why your loved

796
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 3: ones died, you know. I think is a move against

797
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 3: having all chopsysse days. I think it's very civilized to

798
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 3: know that why people died and what happened, and occasionally

799
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 3: you get big surprises. So I guess my message would

800
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 3: be death is with us. It is us, it is

801
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 3: part of us. We're all going there one day and

802
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 3: we should accept it as part of our normal lives.

803
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: Kenrick's book is available now at all of the usual retailers, libraries,

804
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:41,399
Speaker 1: and as an e book for those of you who

805
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: prefer to read on your device. The work of pathologists

806
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: has been crucial to many of the cases I've covered

807
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,839
Speaker 1: in a Moment in crime. Their analysis of evidence has

808
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: led to the convictions of dozens of killers and sex offenders.

809
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,479
Speaker 1: They've helped so of cold cases and explain the most

810
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: bizarre of crimes. They're also doing a lot of really

811
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: important work for the community, helping to diagnose diseases and

812
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: in some cases working hard on developing treatments and cures.

813
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: Kinrick's work over the years is fascinating and compelling, and

814
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: across his three books you can get a good insight

815
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: into how pathologists really contribute to crime and justice.

816
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 3: There's a saying that writing is the art of turning

817
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 3: blood into ink, but I think in my case this

818
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 3: probably literally is a case of turning blood into ink.

819
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 3: It's been an easy journey for me to write. People

820
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 3: often ask why do you write? How do you write?

821
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 3: I just tell the story, you know, they're not it's

822
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 3: not what I think. I could never write fiction. I

823
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 3: just tell the story of what I saw and what

824
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 3: I thought and what became of my patients.

825
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: A Moment in Crime is an enzed Me podcast written

826
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: and hosted by me analysk sandor crime and justice reporter

827
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: for the New Zealand Herald. This episode was produced by myself,

828
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,959
Speaker 1: podcast production manager Ethan Sills and Liam McDonald from enzied

829
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: me Sound and Vision.

830
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 2: Thanks to my colleague Black Benny at Newstalalk z B for.

831
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 1: Voicing the extract of Kinrick's book, The Final Diagnosis, and

832
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: special thanks to Kinrick for sitting down to speak with

833
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 1: me about his book and his career. The world of

834
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: pathologists has always intrigued and interested me, and I really

835
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: appreciated being able to speak to.

836
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:31,720
Speaker 2: Kinrick about his work.

837
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: Thanks also to Hollyhart Jenkins at HarperCollins for her assistance

838
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: with the interview. Episodes of A Moment in Crime are

839
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 1: usually released monthly on insidherld dot co, dot mzed iHeartRadio

840
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: and all your.

841
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 2: Other usual podcast apps.

842
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: If you've got a crimeal case you'd like me to

843
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: consider covering in future, email Anna dot Least at enzdme

844
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:54,320
Speaker 1: dot co dot mzed