1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There are 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: more than nine thousand gang members in New Zealand and 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 2: thousands more associates. The Coalition government from the get go 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 2: promised a crackdown on gangs that banned gang insignior and public, 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: handed police greater powers, and created laws to disrupt get togethers. 8 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 2: But is that all enough? Jared Savage has been a 9 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: journalist at the New Zealand Herald for about twenty years, 10 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: with a focus on organized crime. His latest book, Underworld, 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 2: is the third in a series he's released since twenty twenty, 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 2: and the latest installment delves deeper into our country's dark 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: underbelly of gangs, guns, drugs, and money, lots and lots 14 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 2: of money. Today on the Front Page, Savage joins us 15 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: to discuss the rising threat of organized crime in New Zealand. So, Jared, 16 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: it's not a giveaway. I reckon when I say your 17 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: latest read starts by saying the situation is now even 18 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: more dangerous and the stakes are higher, and that it's 19 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,639 Speaker 2: life and death out there. Can you tell me how 20 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 2: things have escalated? 21 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 3: Well? 22 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: I think it comes down to first and foremost of 23 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: the huge amounts or drugs which are coming into our country. 24 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 3: When I first started reporting to the hero on this 25 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 3: sort of fifteen. 26 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: Nine years ago, you know, one kilo of myth was 27 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: a big deal and I was a front page story, 28 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: and you know, like literally a front page story. And 29 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: these days, you know, even the smallest of drug dealers 30 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: would have far more than a kilo in the back 31 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: of the car where talking imports of four or five, six, 32 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: seven hundred kilograms. Not only we've seen those big buss 33 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: happening regularly, almost routinely, it seems to have had quite 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: a like those big bus that having quite a negligible 35 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: impact on how much drugs are actually being consumed. And 36 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: we can see that through the wastewater testing. You know, 37 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: for a long time, the wastewater testing showed we were 38 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: consuming around about fifteen kilos of methamphetamine per week. 39 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: Then last year sort of about from this about this 40 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: time last. 41 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: Year, it was more than double, from about fifteen to 42 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: forty kilos per every single week, and it dropped down 43 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: a little bit by the end of the year. But 44 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: I guess it shows that we've now reached a big 45 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: point where we have we're on. 46 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: The map now globally for organized crime. 47 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: Huge amounts of drugs have been sent here regularly, and 48 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: it's a real uphill battle for the police and customs 49 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: and other law enforcement agencies to really investigate and stop 50 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:02,559 Speaker 1: these syndicates. 51 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: I guess when it comes to gangs and the underworld, 52 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 2: the public's general fear of gangs and stuff like that 53 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:15,399 Speaker 2: arguably led to or contributed to a changing government. Right 54 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 2: you've got national's hardline on law and order policies, You've 55 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 2: got the crackdown on gang crime things like that. Is 56 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: the public right to be afraid? 57 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: I don't think the public, and I think people listening 58 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 3: to this should. 59 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: Be afraid of going home or walking to you know, 60 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: doing going about their daily lives. 61 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 3: In terms of the. 62 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: Violence and the conflict that we were seeing quite regularly 63 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: there a couple of years ago. You know, normally sort 64 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: of gang an organized crime sort of conflict is between gangs. 65 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: It's not between if you're an NSM and the public, 66 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: just go make your business not part of that world. 67 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: I don't really think you're in huge immediate danger. But 68 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: what does happen in those sort of situations which can 69 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: be quite kay, quite fluid. Is that people get caught 70 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: in the crossfire, and there have been instances of there 71 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: in recent years. 72 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 3: I mean there's an unsolved homicide at the moment sort 73 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 3: of from out sort. 74 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: Of East Auckland Way where a grandfather was sort of 75 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: gunned down on his doorstep and a sort of a 76 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: execution style drive by targeted shooting. 77 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 3: Well, he wasn't the intended target of that. Somebody else was. 78 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: Another member of his family was, and you know who 79 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: was involved in that world. So like this, those are 80 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: the sort of the untender consequences that can happen. But 81 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: generally speaking we're not in danger of being heard or 82 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: sort of killed or embroiled into the violence, but sort 83 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: of that it does have an unsettling impact on society, 84 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: and obviously the more drugs that are out there, that 85 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: contributes to other wider social issues which you know, indirectly 86 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: do affect all of us. 87 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: Now. I know that people love to blame the Aussie 88 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: five oh ones for the escalation in gang problems, right, 89 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 2: but New Zealand has always had a pretty narly gang land. 90 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: I mean you've got the common ceros, the Mongols and 91 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: bandidos coming in shore. But then you've got the Mongol 92 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 2: Mob and Black Power and all those homegrown ones as well. 93 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: But how has the introduction of Aussie gangs changed the 94 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 2: game New. 95 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: Zealand it is always had an entrenched sort of gang lifestyle, 96 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: going back to the nineteen fifties, Younger Mom and Black 97 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: Power for example. We're born out of abusive state care 98 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,679 Speaker 1: and sort of wider socioeconomic sort of problems that were happening, 99 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: and basically bands of young men coming together to sort 100 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: of in a rebellious way, and there was a lot 101 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: of sort of one time or disorganized crime that. 102 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 3: Came out of it. 103 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: Back instead of the late nineteen nineties and early two thousands, 104 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: myth and Vietnam was introduced to the country and we 105 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: saw for the first time of re organized crime element 106 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: coming out of coming out of the gangs that were 107 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: already here. You know, members of the head Hunters for example, 108 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: or the House Angels motorcycle games were heavily involvement in 109 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,119 Speaker 1: the meth trade. And then we've seen in the past 110 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: twenty years since that time an evolution where you know, 111 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: those gangs were working with international partners to bring drugs 112 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: into the country. What has really changed in the past 113 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: ten years. In particular, unfortunately, is you know, members of 114 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: Australian motorcycle gangs being deported here and establishing chapters or 115 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: I mean you can call them branch offices really of 116 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: genuinely truly international organized crime groups. And I think that's 117 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: the difference. They had genuine connections to supply lines overseas, 118 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: not just in Asia, but to the South America's, Mexico, 119 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: the US, and that's really led to this In flux, 120 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: I talked about before the one kilo drug bus turning 121 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: into five hundred kulo drug bus, that it's no coincidence 122 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: of that happened around them at the same time that 123 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: we started seeing the deportees come here. 124 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 3: They've also brought us sort of a more sort of 125 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 3: brazen approach, more sort of arrogant approach to. 126 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: The underworld, and that's led to you know, more shootings 127 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: and violence, but also kind of an escalation or a 128 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: tip for tat. So the groups that were already here 129 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: have up their game in response to how the Australian 130 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: interlopers have sort of conducted their business. 131 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: So we're seeing things ratchet up. 132 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,559 Speaker 1: It's not just the Aussie gangs now that are doing 133 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: these big imports, but they were certainly the ones that 134 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: sort of kick things off. 135 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 4: As I've said before, gangs are not nice people. Those 136 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 4: opposing again policies often take them as very fine community organizations, 137 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 4: where I say to you, they are not rotary. 138 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: They inflict serious, serious. 139 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 4: Harm on our commuit. It is through kiddling illegal drugs, 140 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 4: and are responsible, frankly for a vast proportion of our 141 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,119 Speaker 4: serious violence that happens on our streets. As I say, 142 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 4: it is one quarter of one percent of New Zealand's population, 143 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 4: creating fifth of all of our serious violent crime and homicides, 144 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 4: and one quarter of all our firearm offences. 145 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: And while we're on the subject of international syndicates, I 146 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: guess when we talk about the underworld here and gangs 147 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: and stuff, we think of the patches, We think of 148 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: the bikes, We think of the lambos and the leather 149 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. But what I found 150 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: interesting from all of your reporting, Jared, is shining a 151 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: light on, say, the Asian syndicates that are working in 152 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 2: New Zealand and the history here. You mentioned that meth 153 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: really grew in popularity and really had a foothold in 154 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 2: New Zealand society in the early two thousands. But how 155 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: have the Asian syndicates been involved? 156 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: So, you know, Asian organized crime has had a foothold 157 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: here again again for a long time, but they became 158 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: increasingly important back in sort of the early two thousands, 159 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: working in with the motorcycle gangs, I suppose, because a 160 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: lot of the Asian organized crime groups had access to 161 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: either the ingredients for mean feta meat or finished product themselves, 162 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: either back in China or Southeast Asia. 163 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 3: Where so back two thousand, in the two. 164 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: Thousands, they were the ones that were able to supply 165 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: and source the material and bring it into the gangs 166 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: here who then distributed amongst the community. So it was 167 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: like a business a business relationship there, and that's that's 168 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: carried on to this day. Methampheta meat production is still 169 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: largely sourced out of Southeast Asia, although Mexico and other 170 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: areas as well, so those sort of Asian organized crime 171 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: groups are still a huge player in the scene here. 172 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 1: It's like, yes, gang motorcycle gangs in particular are often 173 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: the sort of the visual face of organized crime here 174 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: because you know, they're so you know, identifiable in many 175 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: regards whereas the Asian kind of groups have kind of 176 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: gone under the radar a little bit. But there's also 177 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: you know a lot of strong events and to show 178 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: that Mexican cartels are seending large amounts of drunks here 179 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: as another rival supplier to the Asian groups as well, 180 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: those sort of cocaine coming out of Central and South 181 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: America as well, So it's all part of a wider ecosystem. 182 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: They're all working together to make lots of money. Largely 183 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 1: those those big groups overseas are interested in a small. 184 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: Market like New Zealand because. 185 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: We are a small market, but we're a very lucid 186 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: market because because of the margins that can be made 187 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 1: even off the smaller amounts of drugs. So it's certainly 188 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: a global, a global business. You've got gangs here working 189 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: with global business partners, and in the same way the 190 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: police and customers now work with their international partners. You know, 191 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: transnational organized crime whites definition crosses border quite luidly, and 192 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: in response of the police and customs and others are 193 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: sort of having to work with their partners overseas as well, 194 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: because there's no point just focusing on what's happening here 195 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: and we're seeing a lot more co operation as well, 196 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: which is leading to some of these big drug. 197 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:27,479 Speaker 2: Busts in terms of the tools that police and customs have. Obviously, 198 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 2: I've seen a couple of quotes that they're just working 199 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: against the tide, aren't they. So you get six hundred 200 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: kilogram bust of meth over here, but over here like 201 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: what's coming through? I mean, it must just be a 202 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 2: never ending job for them, that's right. 203 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: I mean it's just you know, and talking to people 204 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: who are working in those investigations, you know, they go 205 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: from job to job to job and as soon as 206 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: you might spend months or even years in some cases 207 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: investigating a particular group whilst but you know, there are 208 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: multiple other groups working at the. 209 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 3: Same time doing the same thing. 210 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: And you know, it's these investigations are very time consuming, 211 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: they're very resource intensive, and not even up to the 212 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: point where the bust is made or their rests are made, Like, 213 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: there's a lot of work that there happens from the 214 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: first arrest all the way through to the trial. And 215 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: so that means that those resources are not investigating other 216 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: groups and there are many of them, I mean, you know, literally, 217 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: this is my third book on the topic. I think 218 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: if I chose to, I can continue writing one every 219 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: year just about because there's so much material and it 220 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: just shows again some of the demand of drugs which 221 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: is driving that sort of entrenched organized crime problem. 222 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 2: In our country when it comes to gang life and 223 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 2: what is associated with it. So you've got the outlaws, 224 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 2: the guns, the drugs, the violence, the money. Right on 225 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 2: the flip side, you do hear and I don't know 226 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 2: whether I've been sucked into the pr or not, but 227 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: you do hear about the gardi among gang members, the 228 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: idea of family. Do you think gangs are inherently evil? 229 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: I think evil's a strong word. I think a lot 230 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: of I think a lot of activities which come out 231 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: of out of gang life are terrible. But I can 232 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: see the attraction to it as well. I mean, you know, gangs, 233 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: many incidences are born out of tough situations, tough homes, 234 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: tough communities, where people might not have a loving family, 235 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: or they might not have a job, or they might 236 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: not have that sense of purpose or camaraderie or brotherhood 237 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: that gang life can project and they can attract. And 238 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: so I like a lot of a lot of gang 239 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: members joined. 240 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 3: Out of trauma in their own life. You know, the. 241 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: Genesis of gangs in New Zealand comes from abuse and 242 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 1: states here. So, like I can see, there are a 243 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: lot of attractive things to being in a gang, and 244 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: that is that brotherhood, identity, yeah, sense of purpose. But 245 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 1: on the flip side, amongst amongst those groups, there's a 246 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: lot of serious cumul activity. But we can't get away 247 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: from that and whether or not individual members are involved 248 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 1: and that is still associated with it. 249 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 3: And you know, there's no there's no doubt at all. 250 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: That that gangs play a huge part of the dreg 251 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: trade in New Zealand, working in with these other organized 252 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: crime groups the disease and that's. 253 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 3: Not a good thing. 254 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems to me that we're not going to 255 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: we're not ever going to get rid of gangs altogether. Right, 256 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: So let's put that idea aside. Let's think about how 257 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: we stop. So to me, it seems like it's the math, 258 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: it's the easy ish. I suppose, high risk, high reward money. 259 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 2: How do we stop And I know you probably get 260 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: this question all the time, but how do we stop 261 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: them from A bringing in math or B do we 262 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: just give them I don't know, like other opportunities. Government 263 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: contracts to do the security at I don't know, events 264 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: saw something another revenue stream, so they don't they so 265 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 2: they stop all the bad stuff. 266 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's a really difficult, big question to 267 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: ask and one that I don't have all the answers too. 268 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: But what I would say is that and I don't 269 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: think there's any one single answer. 270 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 3: There's no silver bullets to this because the gang world. 271 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: Gang life is intrinsically tight into other bigger, wider social 272 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: issues that we have in this country with a that's 273 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: poverty of employment, poor housing, lack of education, lack of opportunity, 274 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: it's all, it's all tied into. It's all tied into 275 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: much bigger issues that can all be tackled in the 276 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: same kinds of ways. 277 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 3: And I mean, one one. 278 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: Thing that I would say about, you know, those who 279 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: are attracted into the gang world. I mean a lot 280 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: of it is intergenerational and out of communities that gang 281 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: life is normalized and even idolized in particular and potentially 282 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: so we need to it's at a young age. 283 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 3: It's providing opportunities for kids. In particular, I think sport 284 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 3: is and against sports. 285 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: Teams and things that are happening for youth that you know, 286 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: in smaller communities where there might not be opportunities, those 287 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: sorts of things that can provide kids with a sense 288 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: of belonging, identity, and even just as simple as providing hope, 289 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: I suppose, something to look forward to on the weekend 290 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: rather than getting sucked into a world where a lot 291 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: more misery can come from it. 292 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 3: And so that's that's part of those are parts of 293 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 3: the answers, i'd say. 294 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: And in terms of the drugs aspect of getting life 295 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: and the money that can be made from it, yes, 296 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: we need as much enforcement as we possibly can get, 297 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: and the police and customers do at the best shop 298 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: that they possibly can. 299 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 3: But we certainly need to be looking more. 300 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: Into investment into rehabilitation and counseling opportunities for people who 301 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: are who are tied up in addiction because the only 302 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: way that like the supply of drugs is going to 303 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: dry out as if the demand of drugs rise up. 304 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: And so I think a lot more investment could be 305 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: could be made in sort of the healthy aspect of 306 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: the drug of the drug world. 307 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 3: I mean, if if you're living in a small. 308 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: Rural community and needs to make plenty for example, like 309 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: it's very hard to get the help that you need 310 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: compared to. 311 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 3: A much larger sort of city seem to like Aukland, 312 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 3: so a lot more. 313 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: And you know the government is thinking and looking into 314 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: these kinds of areas. But I would say that the 315 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: antswers lie within communities. In each community you know, a 316 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: visit or report on in these big drug bus there's 317 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: always people in there that are doing amazing work with 318 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: young people. 319 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 3: They just need some support basically. 320 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think the antswers lie in individual communities. 321 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: They're the ones that know what would work for their 322 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: for their farm and their families, and it's a matter 323 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: of empowering and supporting them. 324 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, those real grassroots efforts. Hey, I mean that made 325 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: me think of a story that in your book, and 326 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: you've also written about it for the Herald, about Camille. 327 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 2: Tell me more about that. 328 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Commune Kit was someone who wrote about in 329 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: my last book, almost a throw away kind of line. 330 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 3: She was a sort of. 331 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: A drug dealer for the mongl mom in the White Catle, 332 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: and so she wasn't a focus of the book. She 333 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: was just a line in there. A couple of lines 334 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: in there, and then after the book came out, she 335 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: rang me and said, oh, just you know, if way, 336 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: I've kind of churned my life around and doing really well, 337 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: and you know, and so we agreed to meet up 338 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: in her new home and just talk about what she's 339 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: doing now. And she's someone who's gone from being quite 340 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: heavily involved in that world to now working as a 341 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: PIE support worker. So that's someone who walks alongside those 342 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: who are in recovery from addiction and just helping them 343 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: with basic day to day life through there as a 344 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: as a support worker. And so we wrote that piece 345 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: for the Herald and we included part of it in 346 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: the new book. 347 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 3: Now, and you know, she's a really inspired ing. 348 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: Story and someone that you know, a lot of these 349 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: stories are quite dark and quite depressing, and she was 350 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: a real sort of story of pope and something that 351 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: sort of was quite uplifting. So, you know, there are 352 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: sixty stories out there and those are the kinds of 353 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: people that we need to be listening to about potential 354 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: solutions and the way forward. 355 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 5: I got to that point where I was willing and 356 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 5: ready to do whatever it took. I never, in my 357 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 5: entire life ever dreamed that I'd be where I am today. 358 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 5: I am a peace support worker for the South Way 359 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 5: keatdo Key, New Zealand. So I have a PhD in 360 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 5: addiction right already. I don't need to go and do 361 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 5: the theory and go and do all the box that 362 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 5: I've lived it. I've got all that knowledge. I know 363 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 5: the manipulation. I know what goes on up here, you know. 364 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 5: I know the means and ways that we have to 365 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 5: live to survive, you know. And it's very valuable. 366 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: And what do you believe needs to change in our 367 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 2: approach to gangs? If anything? I mean I'm thinking media wise, right, 368 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 2: does the media tend to glamorize gang life or does 369 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: it completely villainize them? I mean, is are there any 370 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 2: changes to be made about how we view them in terms. 371 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: Of reporting on gangs? I mean what, I don't think 372 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: media glamorize gang life. I mean most of the reporting 373 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: done is in relation to you know, gaming, is being 374 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: busted for. 375 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 3: Being involved in the drug world or something of violence. 376 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: So I don't think it's glamorizing gang life. 377 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 3: Do gangs get demonized a little bit? Yeah? 378 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: So, as there is sometimes it can feel a little 379 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: some of the gang coverage can feel overwhelming at times. 380 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 3: It can be so everywhere. 381 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: I think probably the biggest thing to sort of remembering 382 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: all this is that it's not just gangs evolved in 383 00:20:59,520 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: the drug work. 384 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 3: It's sort of this. I tried to talk about. 385 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: Organized crime as opposed to gangs, and we talked about 386 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: that ecosystem before, about our gangs are heavily or some 387 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: gangs are heavily involved in the in the drug trade 388 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: and you know, importing it I never seen before rate, 389 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: but they're working in with. 390 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 2: Other groups, you know, and the fact that they're like recognizable, 391 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: we can see them like people loved stuff that we 392 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: fear the unknown, but we love to identify and see 393 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 2: things and be like, yeah, that's right, gang member. 394 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 3: Yeah. And so they become a face for that. 395 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: And obviously the Coalition government board and sort of the 396 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: gang patch ban, and you know, I was kind of 397 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: a little bit skeptical about it at the time as 398 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: to what impact they might have, but gangs have been 399 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 1: largely compliant with that. I think there was a lot 400 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: of fears around it sort of been too hard to believe. 401 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: And I mean, at this stage, yeah, most people seem 402 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: to be being on board with it simply because of 403 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: the fear of inviting trouble into their home, I suppose. 404 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: I mean, if there's one thing that people don't want, 405 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: it's the police coming in through their house looking at, 406 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: you know, raiding the place. So gangs have been largely 407 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: compliant with that, and anecdotally talking to the police, they 408 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: feel like the patch band has led to fewer incidents 409 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: of conflict between random game members, you know, just walking 410 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: down the street or whatever and then causing trouble. 411 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 3: So I think we won't to see the full benefits, or. 412 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: We weren't to the full consequence of the outcome of 413 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: that decision for some time yet, but certainly it's I 414 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: think being not so visible and reducing the perceived where 415 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: of gangs is a good thing. So that's something I'm 416 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: hearing anecdotally from game members, so that they no longer 417 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,239 Speaker 1: sort of see the point and riding around without their 418 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: colors on, so you know, a big part of the 419 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: gang is now less attractive from some from some aspects too. 420 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, again, some time we'll see if that has 421 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: an impact on recruitment numbers. 422 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Jared, no problem, Thanks so much, Chelsey. 423 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 424 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 425 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 2: at enzedherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page is 426 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Seals and Richard Martin, who is also 427 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 2: our editor. I am Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front 428 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 429 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.