1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: New report into the performance of social impact bonds. Now 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: what happens is the private investors they back social services. 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: The government only pays when the agreed outcomes are met. 4 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: This reports by the Maximum Maximum Institute. Your researcher as 5 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Thomas Scrimmager, who is with us, Thomas Morning. 6 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: Morning, Mike. 7 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 1: Is it a bit cheery picky for the investor? In 8 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: other words, this is easy to do if you go 9 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: in thinking there's an easy outcome and some of the 10 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: crunchy stuff never gets covered or does it work for 11 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: everyone pretty much? 12 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 2: Well, it's certainly something that the government as the instigator 13 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: of the contract, has to be careful about and that 14 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: they have to define the problem correctly. But essentially that's 15 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: the same problem that all social services have. Is that 16 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: some people have relatively simple challenges. They've challenges that need 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: government helped for, but it's reasonably straightforward, and some people 18 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: have really complex lives. I think that the beauty of 19 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 2: social impact bonds as an approach is it allows highly 20 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: flexible and customizable interventions and to actually you can target 21 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 2: the people who are most vulnerable and not simply the 22 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: easy options. 23 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: The genesis youth trial or trust trial that you cite 24 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: that reduced youth offending. My thirty percent generated nine dollars 25 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: of value for every dollar invested. Is that the gold 26 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: medal or can that be standard? 27 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, I think that could be standard. I mean 28 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: every bond would be unique. But that was New Zealand's 29 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: first trial instigated back in twenty sixteen under Berl English 30 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 2: and in the review it was both a roaring success, 31 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 2: but there were heaps of learnings. You know, you think 32 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: about it the same way to any sort of product 33 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 2: or service. The first time you do it, you're doing 34 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 2: it the hard way because there's all sorts of things 35 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 2: you have to figure out, there are negotiations. What are 36 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: we doing here? But they achieved a great success with 37 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 2: the Genesis Youth trial and it was the first time. 38 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: If you keep doing it, you learn, you get more efficient, 39 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: you get better outcomes. 40 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, how many of these programs are out there? I mean, 41 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: how far short of maxing this out are we? 42 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: Oh so in New Zealand where we're sort of the 43 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: government is currently talking about doing a few more. The 44 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: previous national government set up this trial with Genesis Youth, 45 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: and I'd set up another one, but we're not currently 46 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: doing any others of these, right, but globally there's quite 47 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 2: a few of the UK, well, it sort of it's 48 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: a new thing since twenty ten. The UK first trialed 49 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 2: them and then New Zealand started making some noise towards 50 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: the later end of the last national government. But then 51 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 2: it just wasn't the work wasn't pursued, and so the 52 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: current government have a voice some interest in these, and 53 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: so we're saying we should go further, that this is 54 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: really interesting. 55 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: So how is it that something that's fifteen years old 56 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: and the original trial worked and worked really well, and 57 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: this is a government that's looking to improve the social 58 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: outcome of New Zealander. Is that somebody somewhere hasn't gone 59 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: to tell you what, let's give this another crack. 60 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: Well, I think they are doing some work in this space. 61 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 2: I mean obviously wanting to do a lot with social investment, 62 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: which is the analytical framework that sits above me. So 63 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: I can't really speak to why they're not pushing faster 64 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 2: with it now. They haven't, you know, they've only been 65 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: in for a few years. These are the processes to 66 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 2: get these going to take a bit of time, but 67 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: we really would like to see them pushing with us 68 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: further because you think they're a real opportunity. 69 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, you also recommend a cross party political approach. Is 70 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: that a bit dreamy really because this is ideological as now. 71 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: I can't see the Labor Party you of loving this. 72 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think there's a room for everyone 73 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: to get on board with this because really it's simply 74 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 2: a way of partnering with social services, and there's broad 75 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: support with that in New Zealand that government has a role, 76 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: but also community organizations are really valuable, and so I 77 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: think it's simply one way that government can partner with 78 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: community organizations to deliver better services. So we're really hopeful 79 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: that actually a broad support is possible. 80 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: All right, Thomas go Well, appreciate it. Thomas Scrimser, who's 81 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: the Maximum Institute researcher. 82 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 83 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: news talks that'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 84 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.