WEBVTT - 3D bioprinting: Expert says organ printing could be decades away 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:07.000 Kyoda. 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:10.000 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:15.800 daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. In the 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:19.600 new science fiction film Mickey seventeen, Robert Pattinson's character Mickey 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.120 Barnes is killed, and each time he dies, a new 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.560 copy of his body is printed out. It's a classic 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.440 far flung sci fi premise, but the technology it's based 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:37.040 on is far more science than fiction. Three D bioprinting 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.040 is a technology that uses three D printing to create 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:45.680 tissues and organs from living cells and biomaterials. The technology 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.640 has been evolving rapidly over the last couple of decades. 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.080 So how far away are we from printing out multiple 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.560 Robert Pattinson's Today on the front Page, University of Queensland's 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:01.960 professor Sarshaw Ivanovsky joins us to break down three D bioprinting, 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:05.560 where the technology is at and what its future looks like. 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.319 So this sounds like the kind of thing that would 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:15.960 only be possible in a sci fi movie or something. 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:18.200 But what exactly are we talking about when we talk 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:20.040 about three D bioprinting. 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.160 Well, I think most of us are familiar with the 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.800 concept of three D printing and this is an extension 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.279 of that. But just to I guess to be clear 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.240 about what three D printing is about, or what the 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.240 definition of three D printing is. It is essentially the 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.880 creation of a three D object, but it is an 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:43.560 additive manufacturing technique, so that's really important to understand. It 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:48.400 is a technique that's where equipment is used to create 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.080 a three D structure in a lay by layer fashion, 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.680 and it's always from a data file, so it's always 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.080 from some sort of digital data file. So those are 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.880 three parameters three D object, a layer by layer deposition 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:05.400 type of fabrication, and a digital file that informs the shape. Now, 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.400 three D by printing is a special because it involves 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.360 the printing of actual cells, so it's kind of a 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.920 living structure that is being printed from a bioling which 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:18.840 contains cells. 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.560 How long has this technology been around? I feel like 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.280 I'm still getting my head around the regular three D 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.000 printing and now you're throwing this at me. 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:31.280 Well, this section is not that new. It is something 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.800 that's been around as a concept for quite a while. 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.880 I think it's been about twenty five years. Nineteen ninety 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.240 nine was the first time it was reported, so it's 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:42.200 been it's been with us for a while, but obviously 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:44.720 there's been a lot of work and a lot of 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.240 refinement together to this stage. 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.600 What are we currently able to print? 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.400 Well? When it comes to three D buy printing, there 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:56.760 is a lot of experimental work. Essentially just about any 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:01.799 type of tissue or organ can be printed in the laboratory. 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.760 Probably the most common thing that's printed and is the 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:10.040 closest to to clinical translation is skin, as a skin 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.920 is a relatively obviously quite quite a thin structure and 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:18.799 relatively simple in its in its composition, so it is 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:23.040 probably the one tissue that's the closest to clinical translation. 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.840 But even more complex things like liver and bladder and 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.400 teeth for example, are things that have been three D 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:32.080 five printed in the laboratory. 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:37.120 Right, So whose genetic data is used in the printed material. 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:41.880 Well, the printing involves cells, So the cells can cans. 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.560 As with all research, can come from different areas. So 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.560 that could be from a commercial cell line, cell line 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:54.800 that's that's widely available and sold commercially for any type 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.720 of scientific experimentation. Then it can also be from from 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:05.120 specific sources, from animals, from some humans, from patients so 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.120 it really depends on aid application and the type of 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.920 reasons that's being carried out. I should point out that 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.840 cell culture, the growing of cells in the laboratory is 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:20.200 a very well established an all technique, so growing cells 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:24.200 per se is not new. It's just that printing them 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:28.680 into a predetermined through D shape is the novelty. 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:38.120 Here, we can model tissue models that have capillary sized 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.000 blood vessels in them. These vascular structures can be used 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:46.719 as a delivery system for drugs to disease tissue exactly 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.560 as it happens in the body. We then have the 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:54.800 ability to analyze a realistic piece of diseased human tissue 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.080 as if we are treating the disease in the body. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:04:58.880 This can do. 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:03.120 Wonders, gentifying those drugs that will fail in clinical trials 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:07.000 before they ever get there, deresking that stat. 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.919 Could the body reject the printed material, you know, like 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.360 when we see we're a kidney or liver transplant. 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.760 Yes, absolutely, And that's why it's taken such a long 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:26.920 time for this to reach the clinic. In fact, it 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:30.880 is not really widely available. It's because there is that 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:35.240 possibility of rejection. You know, some people envision the very 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.320 first type of three D printed organs to be closely 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.559 matched to the tissue type of the patient and maybe 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:48.400 even be taken from cells from the same patient and 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.920 then be reimplanted after they're grown outside, and then three 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.080 D printed and reimplanted in the same patient. So anytime 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.719 you're taking tissues or cells from another person or even 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.040 another species and implanting them into someone else, there is 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.480 a high possibility of rejection. 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:10.000 Have we seen any successful scenarios where something has been 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:14.080 three D bioprinted and successfully been used on a patient. 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:18.039 It's fairly rare. So when we really think about even 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.760 three D printing, let's put aside for one minute three 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:25.200 D bioprinting. Three D printing when using the biomedical space, 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:30.760 it's usually used for modeling or templating tissues so we 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:35.839 can look at them and plan, but rarely do we transplant. 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:40.200 There is now more and more implantation of certain types 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:45.320 of three D printed devices, usually in orthopedics made from titanium, 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:49.440 for example. That is something that's being done more and more. 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:54.520 But if we're thinking about the category of implantables that 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.960 are also resolving, which means that the original material that 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.640 carries the cells or the original material that's implant that 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:08.039 gets over time replaced by patient's own tissue. That's fairly 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.800 rare in itself. And of course with three D bar printing, 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.760 that material actually contains cells, so that adds an extra 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.840 element of complexity to it. So you can see that 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.960 the idea of three D printing and implantable device that 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.400 contains cells can be very, very complex for some of 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.840 the reasons that we just talked about before, such as rejection, 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:34.040 but it has been done, and probably skin transplantation three 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:38.320 D printed skin transplantation is the closest. Well, it's the 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:42.360 one area that's probably best developed and has been trialed 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:54.440 in humans. 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.040 So how far a way away if I have a 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:00.800 problem with my heart, how far there are way away 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.400 for you to take my cells, print me a new 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:05.360 one and then put it in and it work. 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.680 Yeah, So I think the heart would be right up 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.880 there in terms of complexity. So that's probably the furtherest 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:17.880 away from a clinical application. And look, it's somewhat speculative, 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.480 but I think the consensus would be we're looking at 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.680 probably another twenty to thirty years before that can be 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:29.560 predictably done and be available for everyday clinical application. 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.120 What about the ethical concerns of three D bioprinting. Will 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:38.400 this kind of life saving technology be so expensive that 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.319 it's only able to be afforded to the wealthy. 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:45.840 Yeah, so I think that's definitely an ethical concern. So 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.840 the accessibility to this type of care. As with any 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:55.040 new and innovative technologies, especially when they did require a 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.680 high level of I guess regulation and a high level 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:04.360 of technology, they become expensive. So access to care for 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.280 this type of technologies is certainly a challenge. I mean, 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.679 I would say that initially, for sure, that would definitely 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.680 be the case. But like with any technology, once it 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.880 becomes more mainstream and more people use it, there is 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:23.120 innovation that also then drives the higher throughput, the higher 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.959 than decreases fabrication costs, and you know, more more of 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.040 these devices are made, and it's and it's and then 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.400 the cost tends to drop. But initially, for sure, it's 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:36.640 it's a major accessibility is a major, major issue, I 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:40.720 mean from ethical point of view. Also, safety is certainly 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.199 a big issue because it is it is complex and 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:47.240 requires a lot of care to make these type of 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.360 three D bar printed structures. So the possibility of things 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:55.600 going wrong along the way, contaminations, for example, rejections that 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:57.960 we talked about are high. And I guess the other 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:02.280 ethical concern that's been raised is also enhanced performance. So 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.600 while I think most of us would accept that if 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.200 you've got something that's diseased or missing and replacing it 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.560 with something that can like, for like replace that function, 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.360 that's a great thing. But once we start talking about 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:22.080 enhanced function beyond what is normal, then ethical concerns about 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:27.320 performance enhancement in sports people or more generally becomes also 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:29.960 an issue. So that's that's another ethical concern. 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.880 As you were saying that, I was thinking, are they 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.839 going to have issues that I don't know, the Olympics 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.240 thirty twenty four or something with this kind of thing. 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:43.000 Yeah, well, that's absolutely a possibility. We've had those sort 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:47.200 of issues before, where you know, certainly people with disabilities, 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.160 for example, have had replacements and maybe have given them 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:54.360 sometimes an unreasonable or unfair advantage or something that's been 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:57.720 considered unfair. Or able bodied athletes, the same thing could 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:02.000 happen an enhancement that get raise its performance beyond what 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.560 is what is considered normal. 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.720 As bizarre it might sound, there is no theoretically proven 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.920 limit to longevity. We could live forever. Well, we don't, 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.760 because we are like a automobile. We have parts and 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:25.360 those parts get worn off and at some point, for 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:29.280 some reason, eventually we disappear. But what if we could 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:34.240 indeed replace our organs with the bioprinted once, could we 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.280 could live forever. That's up to you to decide whether 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.400 you want to do that or not. Even if this 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.800 is possible, it's going to take a long time. So 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:48.200 don't smoke too much, don't drink too much, because we're 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.199 not yet there to give you a new heart or 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:50.720 a new liver. 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.040 So what are we expecting to say into what's the 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.800 next major breakthrough? What milestones do we have to hit 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:06.440 before this becomes a norm. 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:10.120 Look, that's a good question. That's probably a number of 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.160 things that need to be solved. I guess A big 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.319 part of the by printing is the bio ink. So 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.840 the material that actually carries our cells is incredibly important 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.439 because the cells, even though bar printing is defined by 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.360 the presence of cells, it's actually the cells have to 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.320 stay alive and that's very dependent on the bioinks that 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.400 carry those cells. And there is an awful lot of 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:36.040 work that needs to be done in that space in 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:41.160 terms of the material being easy to use and accurate 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:46.000 and friendly to the cells and friendly to the recipient patient. 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.760 So I think the bioing needs to be resolved. The 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.520 source of the cells needs to be resolved. Like any 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.400 cell therapies, there is issues around where do you get 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.000 the cells? Is it just from the patient themselves and 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:01.600 put it back into them? That's fine, but then then 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:06.520 that's very customized treatment, which which carries large amount of costs. 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.520 So can you get cells more readily available and standardized 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:12.560 for this sort of treatment and do that in an 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.160 ethical way, in a safe way. And then the material 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:20.600 and the fabrication and that the equipment required to print 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.000 in a deal world, that should be readily accessible. Every 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.600 hospital of any size should be able to produce those 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.319 organs or tissues. And that's not widely available at the moment. 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:35.280 It's it's certainly a very expensive and concentrated in a 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.280 few areas of manufacturing. Yes, I think the machines that 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:42.880 make the structures the cells and sufficient number of readily 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.720 available cells, and then the carriers, the bioinks that carry 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:48.760 the cell, these are areas that we all they all 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.240 require quite a lot of work before this can be 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.120 widely available. 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.240 Right, so at least a couple of decades, you think. 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.640 I would I would think so, yes. I mean that 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.880 that really the consensus within the field twenty thirty is 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.080 a reasonable time frame for widespread use. I mean there 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.800 is always going to be cases here and there which 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:13.120 which utilize these technologies, and that's why we hear about them. 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.840 We know proof of concept is possible to do it, 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.280 but in terms of more widespreaduce, we're looking at decades. 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.240 Yes, So finish And if you'll just indulge me for 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.800 a second, if we skip ahead about one hundred or 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:28.160 two hundred years and just dream a little bit, where 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.120 could this technology be by then do you reckon? 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:31.880 Well? 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.520 I think the idea would definitely be to avoid the 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:41.240 need for transplantation of organs that we can we can 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:47.040 pretty much create any organ within a laboratory environment and 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:51.280 then and then implant it into into a patient. And look, 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.800 we have seen some of this in science fiction movies 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.600 where where that that can actually take place at the 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.480 point of treatment. So someone, for example, you know, as 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:06.160 an accident loses an arm, the doctor is able to 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:11.880 have a device which can three D print another arm 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.760 that can then be attached to the living body. That's 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.440 I guess you know, if we're really dreaming where this 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:23.960 technology could ultimately lead. The idea is that, yes, you 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.080 can three D print, You can do it very quickly, 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.880 and it can be highly by compatible, and it can 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:30.200 certainly save lives. 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.080 Thanks for joining us, Sasha. 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:33.880 Thank you, thank you for the opportunity. 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:40.200 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.040 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.960 at NZ Herald dot co dot MZ. The Front Page 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.520 is produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:56.400 also a sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.840 Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:04.000 and tune in to Morrow for another look behind the headlines.