Speaker 1: Kyoda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. In the
Speaker 2: new science fiction film Mickey seventeen, Robert Pattinson's character Mickey
Speaker 2: Barnes is killed, and each time he dies, a new
Speaker 2: copy of his body is printed out. It's a classic
Speaker 2: far flung sci fi premise, but the technology it's based
Speaker 2: on is far more science than fiction. Three D bioprinting
Speaker 2: is a technology that uses three D printing to create
Speaker 2: tissues and organs from living cells and biomaterials. The technology
Speaker 2: has been evolving rapidly over the last couple of decades.
Speaker 2: So how far away are we from printing out multiple
Speaker 2: Robert Pattinson's Today on the front Page, University of Queensland's
Speaker 2: professor Sarshaw Ivanovsky joins us to break down three D bioprinting,
Speaker 2: where the technology is at and what its future looks like.
Speaker 2: So this sounds like the kind of thing that would
Speaker 2: only be possible in a sci fi movie or something.
Speaker 2: But what exactly are we talking about when we talk
Speaker 2: about three D bioprinting.
Speaker 3: Well, I think most of us are familiar with the
Speaker 3: concept of three D printing and this is an extension
Speaker 3: of that. But just to I guess to be clear
Speaker 3: about what three D printing is about, or what the
Speaker 3: definition of three D printing is. It is essentially the
Speaker 3: creation of a three D object, but it is an
Speaker 3: additive manufacturing technique, so that's really important to understand. It
Speaker 3: is a technique that's where equipment is used to create
Speaker 3: a three D structure in a lay by layer fashion,
Speaker 3: and it's always from a data file, so it's always
Speaker 3: from some sort of digital data file. So those are
Speaker 3: three parameters three D object, a layer by layer deposition
Speaker 3: type of fabrication, and a digital file that informs the shape. Now,
Speaker 3: three D by printing is a special because it involves
Speaker 3: the printing of actual cells, so it's kind of a
Speaker 3: living structure that is being printed from a bioling which
Speaker 3: contains cells.
Speaker 2: How long has this technology been around? I feel like
Speaker 2: I'm still getting my head around the regular three D
Speaker 2: printing and now you're throwing this at me.
Speaker 3: Well, this section is not that new. It is something
Speaker 3: that's been around as a concept for quite a while.
Speaker 3: I think it's been about twenty five years. Nineteen ninety
Speaker 3: nine was the first time it was reported, so it's
Speaker 3: been it's been with us for a while, but obviously
Speaker 3: there's been a lot of work and a lot of
Speaker 3: refinement together to this stage.
Speaker 1: What are we currently able to print?
Speaker 3: Well? When it comes to three D buy printing, there
Speaker 3: is a lot of experimental work. Essentially just about any
Speaker 3: type of tissue or organ can be printed in the laboratory.
Speaker 3: Probably the most common thing that's printed and is the
Speaker 3: closest to to clinical translation is skin, as a skin
Speaker 3: is a relatively obviously quite quite a thin structure and
Speaker 3: relatively simple in its in its composition, so it is
Speaker 3: probably the one tissue that's the closest to clinical translation.
Speaker 3: But even more complex things like liver and bladder and
Speaker 3: teeth for example, are things that have been three D
Speaker 3: five printed in the laboratory.
Speaker 2: Right, So whose genetic data is used in the printed material.
Speaker 3: Well, the printing involves cells, So the cells can cans.
Speaker 3: As with all research, can come from different areas. So
Speaker 3: that could be from a commercial cell line, cell line
Speaker 3: that's that's widely available and sold commercially for any type
Speaker 3: of scientific experimentation. Then it can also be from from
Speaker 3: specific sources, from animals, from some humans, from patients so
Speaker 3: it really depends on aid application and the type of
Speaker 3: reasons that's being carried out. I should point out that
Speaker 3: cell culture, the growing of cells in the laboratory is
Speaker 3: a very well established an all technique, so growing cells
Speaker 3: per se is not new. It's just that printing them
Speaker 3: into a predetermined through D shape is the novelty.
Speaker 4: Here, we can model tissue models that have capillary sized
Speaker 4: blood vessels in them. These vascular structures can be used
Speaker 4: as a delivery system for drugs to disease tissue exactly
Speaker 4: as it happens in the body. We then have the
Speaker 4: ability to analyze a realistic piece of diseased human tissue
Speaker 4: as if we are treating the disease in the body.
Speaker 2: This can do.
Speaker 4: Wonders, gentifying those drugs that will fail in clinical trials
Speaker 4: before they ever get there, deresking that stat.
Speaker 2: Could the body reject the printed material, you know, like
Speaker 2: when we see we're a kidney or liver transplant.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, And that's why it's taken such a long
Speaker 3: time for this to reach the clinic. In fact, it
Speaker 3: is not really widely available. It's because there is that
Speaker 3: possibility of rejection. You know, some people envision the very
Speaker 3: first type of three D printed organs to be closely
Speaker 3: matched to the tissue type of the patient and maybe
Speaker 3: even be taken from cells from the same patient and
Speaker 3: then be reimplanted after they're grown outside, and then three
Speaker 3: D printed and reimplanted in the same patient. So anytime
Speaker 3: you're taking tissues or cells from another person or even
Speaker 3: another species and implanting them into someone else, there is
Speaker 3: a high possibility of rejection.
Speaker 2: Have we seen any successful scenarios where something has been
Speaker 2: three D bioprinted and successfully been used on a patient.
Speaker 3: It's fairly rare. So when we really think about even
Speaker 3: three D printing, let's put aside for one minute three
Speaker 3: D bioprinting. Three D printing when using the biomedical space,
Speaker 3: it's usually used for modeling or templating tissues so we
Speaker 3: can look at them and plan, but rarely do we transplant.
Speaker 3: There is now more and more implantation of certain types
Speaker 3: of three D printed devices, usually in orthopedics made from titanium,
Speaker 3: for example. That is something that's being done more and more.
Speaker 3: But if we're thinking about the category of implantables that
Speaker 3: are also resolving, which means that the original material that
Speaker 3: carries the cells or the original material that's implant that
Speaker 3: gets over time replaced by patient's own tissue. That's fairly
Speaker 3: rare in itself. And of course with three D bar printing,
Speaker 3: that material actually contains cells, so that adds an extra
Speaker 3: element of complexity to it. So you can see that
Speaker 3: the idea of three D printing and implantable device that
Speaker 3: contains cells can be very, very complex for some of
Speaker 3: the reasons that we just talked about before, such as rejection,
Speaker 3: but it has been done, and probably skin transplantation three
Speaker 3: D printed skin transplantation is the closest. Well, it's the
Speaker 3: one area that's probably best developed and has been trialed
Speaker 3: in humans.
Speaker 2: So how far a way away if I have a
Speaker 2: problem with my heart, how far there are way away
Speaker 2: for you to take my cells, print me a new
Speaker 2: one and then put it in and it work.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think the heart would be right up
Speaker 3: there in terms of complexity. So that's probably the furtherest
Speaker 3: away from a clinical application. And look, it's somewhat speculative,
Speaker 3: but I think the consensus would be we're looking at
Speaker 3: probably another twenty to thirty years before that can be
Speaker 3: predictably done and be available for everyday clinical application.
Speaker 2: What about the ethical concerns of three D bioprinting. Will
Speaker 2: this kind of life saving technology be so expensive that
Speaker 2: it's only able to be afforded to the wealthy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think that's definitely an ethical concern. So
Speaker 3: the accessibility to this type of care. As with any
Speaker 3: new and innovative technologies, especially when they did require a
Speaker 3: high level of I guess regulation and a high level
Speaker 3: of technology, they become expensive. So access to care for
Speaker 3: this type of technologies is certainly a challenge. I mean,
Speaker 3: I would say that initially, for sure, that would definitely
Speaker 3: be the case. But like with any technology, once it
Speaker 3: becomes more mainstream and more people use it, there is
Speaker 3: innovation that also then drives the higher throughput, the higher
Speaker 3: than decreases fabrication costs, and you know, more more of
Speaker 3: these devices are made, and it's and it's and then
Speaker 3: the cost tends to drop. But initially, for sure, it's
Speaker 3: it's a major accessibility is a major, major issue, I
Speaker 3: mean from ethical point of view. Also, safety is certainly
Speaker 3: a big issue because it is it is complex and
Speaker 3: requires a lot of care to make these type of
Speaker 3: three D bar printed structures. So the possibility of things
Speaker 3: going wrong along the way, contaminations, for example, rejections that
Speaker 3: we talked about are high. And I guess the other
Speaker 3: ethical concern that's been raised is also enhanced performance. So
Speaker 3: while I think most of us would accept that if
Speaker 3: you've got something that's diseased or missing and replacing it
Speaker 3: with something that can like, for like replace that function,
Speaker 3: that's a great thing. But once we start talking about
Speaker 3: enhanced function beyond what is normal, then ethical concerns about
Speaker 3: performance enhancement in sports people or more generally becomes also
Speaker 3: an issue. So that's that's another ethical concern.
Speaker 2: As you were saying that, I was thinking, are they
Speaker 2: going to have issues that I don't know, the Olympics
Speaker 2: thirty twenty four or something with this kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, that's absolutely a possibility. We've had those sort
Speaker 3: of issues before, where you know, certainly people with disabilities,
Speaker 3: for example, have had replacements and maybe have given them
Speaker 3: sometimes an unreasonable or unfair advantage or something that's been
Speaker 3: considered unfair. Or able bodied athletes, the same thing could
Speaker 3: happen an enhancement that get raise its performance beyond what
Speaker 3: is what is considered normal.
Speaker 5: As bizarre it might sound, there is no theoretically proven
Speaker 5: limit to longevity. We could live forever. Well, we don't,
Speaker 5: because we are like a automobile. We have parts and
Speaker 5: those parts get worn off and at some point, for
Speaker 5: some reason, eventually we disappear. But what if we could
Speaker 5: indeed replace our organs with the bioprinted once, could we
Speaker 5: could live forever. That's up to you to decide whether
Speaker 5: you want to do that or not. Even if this
Speaker 5: is possible, it's going to take a long time. So
Speaker 5: don't smoke too much, don't drink too much, because we're
Speaker 5: not yet there to give you a new heart or
Speaker 5: a new liver.
Speaker 2: So what are we expecting to say into what's the
Speaker 2: next major breakthrough? What milestones do we have to hit
Speaker 2: before this becomes a norm.
Speaker 3: Look, that's a good question. That's probably a number of
Speaker 3: things that need to be solved. I guess A big
Speaker 3: part of the by printing is the bio ink. So
Speaker 3: the material that actually carries our cells is incredibly important
Speaker 3: because the cells, even though bar printing is defined by
Speaker 3: the presence of cells, it's actually the cells have to
Speaker 3: stay alive and that's very dependent on the bioinks that
Speaker 3: carry those cells. And there is an awful lot of
Speaker 3: work that needs to be done in that space in
Speaker 3: terms of the material being easy to use and accurate
Speaker 3: and friendly to the cells and friendly to the recipient patient.
Speaker 3: So I think the bioing needs to be resolved. The
Speaker 3: source of the cells needs to be resolved. Like any
Speaker 3: cell therapies, there is issues around where do you get
Speaker 3: the cells? Is it just from the patient themselves and
Speaker 3: put it back into them? That's fine, but then then
Speaker 3: that's very customized treatment, which which carries large amount of costs.
Speaker 3: So can you get cells more readily available and standardized
Speaker 3: for this sort of treatment and do that in an
Speaker 3: ethical way, in a safe way. And then the material
Speaker 3: and the fabrication and that the equipment required to print
Speaker 3: in a deal world, that should be readily accessible. Every
Speaker 3: hospital of any size should be able to produce those
Speaker 3: organs or tissues. And that's not widely available at the moment.
Speaker 3: It's it's certainly a very expensive and concentrated in a
Speaker 3: few areas of manufacturing. Yes, I think the machines that
Speaker 3: make the structures the cells and sufficient number of readily
Speaker 3: available cells, and then the carriers, the bioinks that carry
Speaker 3: the cell, these are areas that we all they all
Speaker 3: require quite a lot of work before this can be
Speaker 3: widely available.
Speaker 1: Right, so at least a couple of decades, you think.
Speaker 3: I would I would think so, yes. I mean that
Speaker 3: that really the consensus within the field twenty thirty is
Speaker 3: a reasonable time frame for widespread use. I mean there
Speaker 3: is always going to be cases here and there which
Speaker 3: which utilize these technologies, and that's why we hear about them.
Speaker 3: We know proof of concept is possible to do it,
Speaker 3: but in terms of more widespreaduce, we're looking at decades.
Speaker 1: Yes, So finish And if you'll just indulge me for
Speaker 1: a second, if we skip ahead about one hundred or
Speaker 1: two hundred years and just dream a little bit, where
Speaker 1: could this technology be by then do you reckon?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 3: I think the idea would definitely be to avoid the
Speaker 3: need for transplantation of organs that we can we can
Speaker 3: pretty much create any organ within a laboratory environment and
Speaker 3: then and then implant it into into a patient. And look,
Speaker 3: we have seen some of this in science fiction movies
Speaker 3: where where that that can actually take place at the
Speaker 3: point of treatment. So someone, for example, you know, as
Speaker 3: an accident loses an arm, the doctor is able to
Speaker 3: have a device which can three D print another arm
Speaker 3: that can then be attached to the living body. That's
Speaker 3: I guess you know, if we're really dreaming where this
Speaker 3: technology could ultimately lead. The idea is that, yes, you
Speaker 3: can three D print, You can do it very quickly,
Speaker 3: and it can be highly by compatible, and it can
Speaker 3: certainly save lives.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Sasha.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at NZ Herald dot co dot MZ. The Front Page
Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is
Speaker 2: also a sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The
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Speaker 2: and tune in to Morrow for another look behind the headlines.