1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: Ki Elder. 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. A step 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 2: forward for housing capacity in our largest city or a 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 2: step back on housing affordability. Auckland's explosive debate over density 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: planning has come to a head, with Housing Minister Chris 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 2: Bishop making a u turn on capacity limits. It's all 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: got to do with the controversial PC one twenty plan, 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,279 Speaker 2: which has been scaled back slightly to allow for one 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: point six million homes to be built as opposed to 11 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 2: two million. But what does that actually mean and why 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: have the rules to pack more homes into Auckland sparked 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 2: such a fierce debate. Today on the Front Page, journalist 14 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 2: Simon Wilson is with us to unpack the updated plan, 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: the protests and what it means for your backyard. So Simon, 16 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: first off, what in the world is this plan change 17 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: one twenty. 18 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 3: Well, if you listen to Chris Bishop, you go back 19 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 3: to twenty sixteen, which was the date when the Auckland 20 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 3: Unitary Plan was adopted and that allowed for pretty significant 21 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 3: up zoning of Auckland. And as Bishop said in his 22 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 3: speech today, now the result of that has been quite 23 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 3: a bit more density and also lower rents in Auckland. 24 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 3: It's been very well studied and it's been internationally pair 25 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 3: reviewed and all of that. So we know that the 26 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 3: Auckland unitry Plan, though, didn't allow for enough againsty in 27 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 3: the city. So what followed from that was a short 28 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: lived bipartisan agreement that they would allow for almost all 29 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 3: private sections to be subdivided in three, with three story 30 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 3: buildings built on each of the subdivided part. That bipartisan 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 3: approach didn't survive. It was ended up being a labor plan, 32 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 3: but National opposed it going into the last election and 33 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 3: they instructed the council. They allowed the council to put 34 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 3: that aside if they were prepared to come up with 35 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 3: a new plan that would retain the same capacity for 36 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 3: growth as the earlier one, but would focus it around 37 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 3: focus density around train stations, particularly the train stations that 38 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 3: would be part of the central city area of the 39 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 3: city railing area, which makes sense, yes, that's right. Town 40 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,959 Speaker 3: centers also makes sense, and along other major transport routes, 41 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 3: which also makes sense. Everybody in theory says that's where 42 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 3: development should occur. In practice, if you live near a 43 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 3: train station and it means that an apartment building might 44 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: go near your house. You might argue that this is 45 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 3: still the wrong place. So that's what this debate has 46 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 3: been all about. Plan Change one twenty is the council's 47 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 3: response to a government directive from last year that says 48 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 3: we want density, but you've got to focus it in 49 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 3: those targeted areas. So that's what Plan Change one twenty does. 50 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 3: At the same time, it also made it much harder 51 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 3: to build in areas of coastal erosion and the areas 52 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 3: that are likely to flood, and that's a very important 53 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 3: part of Plan Change one twenty that nobody's questioned and 54 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: I think is going to stay whatever the developments are. 55 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: So what's all this about two million homes being built 56 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: in Auckland. First off, that seems impossible. 57 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: It is impossible. We have had around fourteen thousand homes 58 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: built each year for several years now. There's a pretty 59 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 3: stable average there. At that rate, it will take one 60 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 3: hundred years to build up to two million. We already 61 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 3: have five hundred and fifty and homes, so that to 62 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,839 Speaker 3: build another one point five would take at least another 63 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 3: one hundred years. So that tells you that the two 64 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: million figure is not a target, is not a plan 65 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 3: that there will be those houses. Minister Bishop in his 66 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 3: speech spent some time trying to explain why you zone 67 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 3: for a larger capacity than you will actually need, and 68 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 3: the reason really comes down to if you only zone 69 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 3: for the exact amount of housing you think you're going 70 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 3: to need, that then becomes an instruction to every landowner 71 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 3: that they must build in the way the zoning to 72 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 3: the maximum the zoning allows on their own land, an 73 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 3: instruction to developers, an instruction to private homeowners. Of course, 74 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: you don't have that. Nobody's going to argue for that. 75 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 3: So you have to allow for more capacity than you 76 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 3: need so that landowners property owners have choice. I will 77 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 3: buy this piece of land and I will build because 78 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 3: I think I can put up an apartment building there 79 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 3: that people will want to live in because it's in 80 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 3: the right place. I won't buy that piece even though 81 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 3: it was zoned for it, because I don't think now 82 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 3: I can't get a good price, or I don't think 83 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: it's the right area anyway, and so on. So that's 84 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 3: why the two million figure was there. It was never 85 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 3: an instruction, it was never a target, but it became 86 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 3: what Bishop called a red herring, that became a lightning rod. 87 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 3: So the wonderful mixed metaphors there. What he's saying there 88 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 3: is that it's an irrelevancy to the real argument of 89 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 3: how our zoning should develop and how our density and 90 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 3: housing density should develop. And it also became a political 91 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: weapon if you like that. Galvin asked a whole lot 92 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: of anger around issues that really got on the way 93 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 3: of a good rational discussion about how we should develop 94 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 3: the city. 95 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: Yes, if the two million figure doesn't really mean two 96 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: million more homes, it's not a target, it's only capacity, 97 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: then why move it down to one point sex? Does 98 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: it just is it just for purposes that it sounds 99 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: a little bit better. It sounds like they are listening 100 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: to Aucklands and delivering this. 101 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 3: Is election year and it sounds better. Yeah, I think 102 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,799 Speaker 3: you've put the nail on the head there. What Bishop 103 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 3: has said is that by moving it down to around 104 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 3: one point six, they've done a couple of things. One 105 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 3: is they've made it clear that nobody's intending that we 106 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 3: have two million homes all of a sudden, and that's 107 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 3: the first thing. The second thing is they've said, Okay, 108 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 3: the council will now decide where to lower the capacity, 109 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 3: and it's existing one plan change one twenty proposals, So 110 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 3: there'll be a plan change with a new number, and 111 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: the council will be the people, not the government, who 112 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 3: will decide which parts of the city don't have that density. 113 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 3: Provided provided, said Bishop, you still retain density around train stations, 114 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 3: town centers and on major transport routes. So, in other words, 115 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 3: what that turns into really is if you think of 116 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 3: a suburb like Hawick where the local councilors have been 117 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 3: upper arms about density proposed in their area, it's quite 118 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 3: likely that council will consider a proposal from those councilors 119 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 3: to remove how density from the plan, so it will 120 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: just retain one or two story housing. However, if you 121 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 3: look at a place like Mount Eden and the EPSOM electorate, 122 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 3: where there has also been a big controversy. Mount Eden 123 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 3: is close to train stations and it's close to town, 124 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 3: it's very hard to see how that area would not 125 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 3: retain the current plan change one tent one two DE 126 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 3: density requirements. So the political issue might go away in 127 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 3: the outer suburbs, Yeah, but it's not necessarily going to 128 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 3: go away in the in the closest suburbs, particularly in 129 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 3: that amount area. That two million number. 130 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: How did I guess the debate around it to get 131 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: to the point where people thought there were going to 132 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: be two million new houses in Auckland. 133 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 3: I don't know. 134 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: You used to be in the media, you'd learn more 135 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: than I would. I mean, these things get weaponized, right, 136 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: I mean, people here the number and get people hear 137 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: the number and say, you know, two million, and you know, 138 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: I try to explain, I mean, these things are difficult. 139 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: I'm not sort of I'm not really blaming anyone, really, 140 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: I suppose these things are difficult because people here two 141 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: million and they go, it's crazy, why do you have 142 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: any two million homes in Auckland? And the reality is 143 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: we don't. Is I tried to explain in my speech. 144 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: It's a capacity number, you know, It's like it's a 145 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: it's a theoretical development capacities of every house in Auckland, 146 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: where every section in Auckland was developed to its maximum capacity. 147 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 3: That's the number. 148 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: Now, it's never gonna happen, But the point is to 149 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: create abundant opportunities so that you can. 150 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:12,239 Speaker 2: Choose and The elephant in the room for them is Epsom, 151 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: isn't it. Because David Seymour has already gone off the 152 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: you know off on about this Aukland density and in 153 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: his suburb of Epsom. How likely is it that they 154 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 2: will just cater to David Seymour's needs given the polling 155 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: at the moment, given it it is election year, and 156 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: given that they may need you know, ACTS seats when 157 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 2: push comes to shove. 158 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 3: You would expect that they won't want to give Act 159 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 3: too much ammunition, for too much of an incentive to 160 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 3: to attract voters in the EPSOM electorate away from National 161 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 3: to Act. And you have to remember that in Epsom, 162 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 3: although David Seymour comfortably holds the seat the electorate, the 163 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 3: party vote in EPSOM goes to National. 164 00:09:58,360 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: That's right. 165 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 3: The Act is only the the fourth most popular party 166 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 3: in EPSOM, behind Labor and the Greens. So there is 167 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 3: a lot of potential you could argue for the party 168 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 3: voter in EPSOM to swing to Act and National won't 169 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 3: want that to happen. So there's an ongoing political difficulty 170 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 3: for them. There. The National MP for the area, Paul Goldsmith, 171 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 3: who stands in the sea and always loses, but he's 172 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 3: there as a list MP. He's on record saying I 173 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 3: don't see the problem with just focusing on Greenfields, which 174 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 3: is the very out of fringe. The problem with that argument, firstly, 175 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 3: is that Greenfield's development costs more to do, costs a 176 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 3: city more because even when you have developer contributions, they 177 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 3: don't really pay for the extra motorway capacity you need, 178 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 3: they don't pay for all of the services that are required, 179 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 3: and they certainly don't pay for the maintenance of all 180 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 3: those services roading and water and so on. So it's expensive. 181 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 3: But also it's happening anyway. As Bishop said, there is 182 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 3: a new city quietly being built in the far south 183 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 3: of Auckland, around the Drury Pokikoe area that is happening. 184 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 3: That that city over the next twenty to thirty years 185 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 3: will be as big as Napier. It's really big, and 186 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 3: that's happening. So Greenfield's is happening. But at the same time, 187 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 3: the capacity for the central city, for the major part 188 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 3: of Auckland, for the fringe suburbs is central to the 189 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 3: whole equation because that's where the density can work and 190 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 3: be really functionally efficient. They spent all this money five 191 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 3: and a half billion dollars to double the capacity of 192 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 3: the rail network. That's the city railing, the CRAL that 193 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 3: will open this year. They want people to use it. 194 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 3: And the more people who live close to a train station, 195 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 3: the more they are lucky to catch a train and 196 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 3: into their fares, will help contribute to making the train 197 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 3: services better. There'll be more trains, there'll be bigger trains, 198 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 3: there'll be better security, and that goes round and around. 199 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 3: The more people who catch the trains, the better the 200 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 3: train services. The better the train services, the more people 201 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 3: catch the trains. That is the key to managing congestion 202 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: on the roads. That's why it's been done. It's also 203 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 3: helpful and lowering emissions. It's also helpful for public health 204 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 3: getting more people catching trains rather than say, being driven 205 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 3: to school. So there's a whole lot of issues there 206 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 3: that come together. However, in Ebsom, the answer to your 207 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 3: question is there is a political battle going on because 208 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 3: while people say yes, we want apartments, there is also 209 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 3: a great fear among many people that I don't want 210 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 3: an apartment next to my villa. There's a complication in 211 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 3: this too. 212 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 2: And looking into my poll. 213 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you're looking into my port. But there's a 214 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 3: complication in this because last year there was the report 215 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 3: published that showed that the people who want to buy 216 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 3: apartments in Remuera, Parnell EPs and those areas largely are 217 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 3: people who already live there. This is people who have 218 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 3: a family home but they retired, the family have left home, 219 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: they need to downsize, they don't want to look after 220 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 3: the grounds anymore. They want an apartment, but they want 221 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 3: to stay in their suburb, of course they do. So 222 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: while there's an election issue around we don't want apartments 223 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 3: next to our villa, there is also a whole lot 224 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 3: of other voters who are saying we do want apartments 225 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: in the suburb because we want to stay living in 226 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 3: it and we want to be able to buy an 227 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 3: apartment in it. 228 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the data has been done around. 229 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 3: That, It absolutely has. So it's rather more complex than 230 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: the simple slogan airing Nimbi, we don't want apartments next to. 231 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: Our ville, not in our backyard. 232 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. It is complex because there are a 233 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 3: whole lot of people who want to stay in their 234 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 3: own backyard and need an apartment to do it. 235 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: To create a brighter, more prosperous future for these Zealanders. 236 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: We have to allow Auckland to grow and become a 237 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: world class international city. And it means as a country, 238 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: saying yes a lot more often and no a lot less. 239 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,119 Speaker 1: Yes infrastructure, yes to events, yes to transit oriented development, 240 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: yes to housing, and yes to growth. But saying yes 241 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: is not just a political slogan or ideological posturing about progress. 242 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: It means real change and that's what this government is about. 243 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: We're a reform and government. We refuse to accept the 244 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: idea that New Zealand is in a state of perpetual 245 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: managed decline. 246 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 2: So the announcement today, I'll walk you through what I 247 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 2: took from it. So everyone's unhappy that two million homes 248 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: are to be built, Hang on, actually it's not two 249 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 2: million homes. I'll explain to you why. It's about capacity. 250 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: But anyway, we'll bring it down to one point six million. 251 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: The Council is going to decide what areas are going 252 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 2: to be under this new plan. Don't know when, and 253 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: it's up to them. 254 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 3: It will be. It will be this year because there'll 255 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 3: be new consultation that happens around this. Bishop was very 256 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 3: clear that the people will get their chance to have 257 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 3: a say, and if people have already had to say, 258 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 3: they can have another say, and people who haven't had 259 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 3: a say will be invited to have a say anyway, 260 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 3: So that will happen, But he is not extending the 261 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: timeline for the whole project. This all has to be signed, 262 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 3: sealed and in law by I think it's May twenty 263 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 3: twenty seven, So council has to get it. Skates on councils. 264 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: If it's council's job, though, then why has government gotten 265 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: involved at all in the first place. If you just 266 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 2: have to get back to them you make the hard decisions. 267 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 2: You have to crack the news to the guys in 268 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 2: Mount Eden. 269 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. So Bishop's argument, which has previously been an argument 270 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: adopted by both Labor and National is that it's too 271 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 3: hard for councils to rezone for more density because there 272 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 3: are too many voters that jump up and down and 273 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 3: scream and shout and say you can't do it. So 274 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: where central government comes in and says you have to 275 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 3: do it, then that takes the political weight off the council. 276 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 3: So that's why government's been involved, because they have recognized 277 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 3: both National and Labor have recognized that unless they say 278 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: we need more density, it isn't going to happen, and 279 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 3: that leads the cities in a mess. 280 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 2: Right. So it's when you're a kid, you're acting a 281 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: full at home mom says, wait until your dad gets home. 282 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: Government is dad. He's getting home, and you're going to 283 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: stop acting a full Yeah. 284 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, And Bishop and his speech spelled out what that 285 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 3: acting a fall means. If you have density in a city, 286 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 3: if you have a city that is a thriving, busy 287 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 3: place full of people, it's more productive and that means 288 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 3: things like there are more people who are there to 289 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 3: buy things, to be entertained by things, to use the 290 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 3: services that are provided. If you spread out too far, 291 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 3: if you just have suburban sprawl, it's very much harder 292 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 3: to do that. Everything costs more to do and the 293 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 3: transport costs on citizens become higher as well. So you 294 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 3: want your density because that helps with those things for 295 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 3: ordinary people. But also density drives productivity, it drives innovation, 296 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 3: and this has been studied globally. It drives progress for societies. 297 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 3: So it is Bishop's way of putting it is, he 298 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 3: says Auckland in New Zealand, we should stop thinking about 299 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 3: Auckland as large New Zealand city and start to think 300 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: about it as a small global city and look at 301 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,239 Speaker 3: other global cities the same size as Auckland, which is 302 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 3: pushing up to two million, and see what they do, 303 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 3: how they thrive, what they do to be successful, and 304 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 3: density is always a part of that. 305 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: One thing I did find fascinating, It's funny that you 306 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: bring that up is the comparison of you know, New York, 307 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 2: London and Ireland are looking towards Auckland for answers, and 308 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: I just sat there and thought, I, you know what, 309 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 2: I don't think, So I don't think Zon and Mundani's 310 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: sitting there watching this live stream being like, you know 311 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: what those density changes in Auckland, New Zealand. 312 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're you're You're right, You're right about that in 313 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 3: the sense that, of course people aren't glued to their 314 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 3: to their computers waiting to see what Auckland's next move 315 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 3: is going to be. But at the same time, because 316 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 3: the Auckland unitry plan did unlock housing growth and we 317 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 3: got from a flat situation, we got really a big 318 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 3: booster housing growth. It's when it kicked off the middle 319 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: of last decade. Because that happened, it has been studied, 320 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 3: it has been looked at, and you know, we've gone 321 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 3: from just one example. If you look at the central city, 322 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 3: there are and around forty thousand people who live in 323 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 3: Central Auckland. Now that's just what we many people call 324 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 3: the CBD. So it's much more than a CBD. That 325 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 3: is larger than any suburb in the country. But they 326 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,959 Speaker 3: have no schools, they have no very few services, you know, 327 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 3: they just that's where they live. That's happened in the 328 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 3: last ten fifteen years, very very quickly, and there's capacity 329 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 3: for more so, you know, and that's a good thing 330 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 3: because those people can walk and often do. Many of 331 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: them don't own a car, or if they do, they 332 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: don't drive it very much. And you know, that's a 333 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,239 Speaker 3: real change. It's not that everybody has to look like that. 334 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 3: And nobody's suggesting that there will be nobody. 335 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: You saw it in my eyes. I'm not getting on 336 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: a bike, Simon, you know I'm not. 337 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 3: But it's about choice. It's about choice, giving people choice 338 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 3: and not saying if you want to buy an affordable house, 339 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 3: you're going to have to go and live in booky k. Now, 340 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 3: it's because that is not going to work for most people. 341 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Simon. 342 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 3: Thank you. 343 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 344 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 345 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot enz The Front Page is 346 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels. Caine Dickie is 347 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and 348 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page 349 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 2: on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts, 350 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 2: and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.