Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Francesca Rudkin and I'm Louise Aria. And this
Speaker 1: is season three of our New Zealand hei podcast The
Speaker 1: Little Things, a podcast where we talk to experts and
Speaker 1: find out all the little things you need to know
Speaker 1: to improve all areas of your life and cut through
Speaker 1: the confusion and overload of information out there, because we
Speaker 1: all know how overwhelming it can be. Today, we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about women and our careers and the challenges
Speaker 1: we face from progressing our careers in middle age, juggling
Speaker 1: the paid and unpaid workwomen do, and having the courage
Speaker 1: to make a change and maybe, you know, find that
Speaker 1: job that's a bit more fulfilling.
Speaker 2: Did you always know what you wanted to do?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Just do you know now what you want to do? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I want to lie on a beach, But in previous
Speaker 1: episodes we found that that's actually not good for us
Speaker 1: long term.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: I guess the more I investigate these things, the more
Speaker 1: digiti or yeah, I get itchy feet. So I'm not finished.
Speaker 1: I have got something else in me, and I just
Speaker 1: don't know what it is. I never knew what I
Speaker 1: wanted to do. I always admired those people who at
Speaker 1: the age of ten, said I'm going to be a
Speaker 1: doctor or I'm going to be a farmer. And they
Speaker 1: knew exactly what they were going to do, and then
Speaker 1: they went off and did it. They kind of annoyed
Speaker 1: me as well a little bit. I never had any
Speaker 1: idea what I wanted to do, so I went to university,
Speaker 1: studied something I was interested in, and then completely stumbled
Speaker 1: into television and sort of got an apprenticeship and learned
Speaker 1: on the job. And if I hadn't, if they just
Speaker 1: hadn't been that opportunity, I don't know what I would
Speaker 1: be doing right now. I think we probably both studied
Speaker 1: in that time where it wasn't necessarily a vocational thing,
Speaker 1: and I think the pressure is on now for it.
Speaker 1: It was more affordable, it was a little bit moreable,
Speaker 1: more affordable. It's quite funny, though, because we both have
Speaker 1: teenagers who are finishing school this year, and we go
Speaker 1: out of our way not to ask their friends what
Speaker 1: they're going to do next year, not out of not
Speaker 1: out of a lack of but because of that pressure
Speaker 1: on young people to know what they want to do
Speaker 1: and where they want to go.
Speaker 2: I just think it's so tough.
Speaker 1: Well, I witnessed it with my twenty year old. He's
Speaker 1: in a third year of his degree now, but I
Speaker 1: witnessed it when he was in year thirteen. And I've
Speaker 1: vowed and declared, and I said to you, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to ask that question of any year thirteen's going forward.
Speaker 1: It is the natural question. Every single person asks it
Speaker 1: of my daughter, and she's not even one hundred percent sure,
Speaker 1: and it's, you know, getting close to making a decision.
Speaker 2: It's stressful. It is stressful. Are you happy with where
Speaker 2: you're at in your career?
Speaker 1: I am most of the time. When I start doing
Speaker 1: research for things like this FRENCHISCA. And it was the
Speaker 1: same with the mental old episode, I start, a little
Speaker 1: bit of feminist anger does build up in me, a
Speaker 1: little bit about just the way things have turned out,
Speaker 1: and perhaps that I haven't made decisions. I've gone with
Speaker 1: the flow a little much, you know, a little too much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, I said to you. You know, I'm working
Speaker 1: for the same salary I was on in two thousand
Speaker 1: and four when I went on maternity leave, probably responsible
Speaker 1: for managing more money for the organization, research outputs, all
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. And yeah, it's not It's fulfilling,
Speaker 1: but not financially fulfilling, and that is one of the
Speaker 1: things we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 2: I think, what about you. Yeah, I'm happy with where
Speaker 2: I'm at. That's good.
Speaker 1: But you know, it required me to, like, I'm loving
Speaker 1: radio and this is a relatively new career for me.
Speaker 1: I've only been doing it for five years, and it
Speaker 1: took a lot of courage to say yes to it.
Speaker 1: You know, Like I got the call when I was
Speaker 1: in my mid forties, mid to late forties, someone saying, Hey,
Speaker 1: would you like to give this a go? Would you
Speaker 1: like to work over the summer in a holiday show.
Speaker 1: It's a very simple show. Would you like to give
Speaker 1: it a go? Every part of me was going, no,
Speaker 1: that's terrifying, but I knew I hate to say yes. Immediately.
Speaker 1: I knew I couldn't think about it. I knew that
Speaker 1: this was a really amazing opportunity. They don't come along
Speaker 1: very often, and even though it terrified me, I knew
Speaker 1: I just had to say yes.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: I remember I remember talking about it on a run
Speaker 1: or something, and You're like, I've got to do all
Speaker 1: the buttons.
Speaker 2: I was like, this is ridiculous. They're going to let
Speaker 2: me do this nationwide show.
Speaker 1: I have no idea what I'm doing, and I can
Speaker 1: remember just before that show started, that first show, I
Speaker 1: remember sitting here at the desk going, Okay, are they
Speaker 1: going to sink or swim? Right, I'm just going to swim.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to do this and I'm going to swim.
Speaker 1: And you know, over time, more work came and I've
Speaker 1: been able to sort of start a new career in
Speaker 1: my mid to late forties, which you know, I'm very,
Speaker 1: very fortunate about, but.
Speaker 2: It did take quite a big, sort of.
Speaker 1: Courageous fay to do it and yourself, Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: So look to give us some inspiration and information on
Speaker 1: how to advance our careers, future proof our careers, find
Speaker 1: the right career. We're joined by Joe crib today. Joe
Speaker 1: is an Experience oriens chief executive, a board member, a strategist,
Speaker 1: a gender and policy experts. He's also a coach and
Speaker 1: a career mentor and co author of books such as
Speaker 1: Take Your Space, Successful Women share their Secrets and Don't
Speaker 1: Worry about the Robots, How to survive and thrive in
Speaker 1: the New World of work. Welcome Joe, Thanks for being
Speaker 1: with us.
Speaker 3: Oh, Curra, it's my absolute delight.
Speaker 2: Lovely to me.
Speaker 1: You, Hey, look, could we start with you telling us
Speaker 1: a little about your career, Joe, because it's quite a
Speaker 1: CV and you know what kind of interesting sort of
Speaker 1: challenges you face during your career.
Speaker 3: Well, the first thing, looking at it, it probably looks
Speaker 3: very coherent, but when you're in the midst of it,
Speaker 3: it didn't seem at all like that at all. So
Speaker 3: I started out in my first roles, going to Wellington
Speaker 3: to work in policy roles, and I was I guess
Speaker 3: I had that young twenties gosh, I was going to
Speaker 3: change the world where, whether it liked or not, kind
Speaker 3: of erving was lucky enough to move up the ranks.
Speaker 3: I had my first team leader job when I was
Speaker 3: about twenty seven twenty eight, and I was absolutely rubbish
Speaker 3: at it. I was the youngest person and in the team,
Speaker 3: trying to prove myself, trying to be perfect at everything,
Speaker 3: and luckily some of those team members when I bump
Speaker 3: into them, are polite enough not to cross the road.
Speaker 3: I then was in. I guess I looked around my
Speaker 3: industry that I was working in. It was the public service.
Speaker 3: It was twenty years ago, and there were very few women,
Speaker 3: and you did never talked about your children, and it
Speaker 3: was not an environment that was going to be particularly
Speaker 3: friendly if I wanted to have children. My partner and
Speaker 3: I decided to. So I took a side step out
Speaker 3: and did my PhD while I had two children, and
Speaker 3: I was very lucky that they arrived sort of when
Speaker 3: I want to, and I just want to acknowledge that
Speaker 3: that doesn't happen for everyone. And what it really did
Speaker 3: is just buy me the time to be a mum,
Speaker 3: because I don't think the system where I was operating,
Speaker 3: particularly with in a team leader kind of role, fast
Speaker 3: moving policy, was in any way going to help me.
Speaker 3: I then went back after my doctorate and went into
Speaker 3: a general manager role again. I think I had my
Speaker 3: first actual I think we need to talk about it,
Speaker 3: quite honestly. So I had two children, two toddlers, again
Speaker 3: trying to be perfect, do you know, the perfect house.
Speaker 3: I would stay up at night and wrap presents for
Speaker 3: all the thousands of parties the kids would go to
Speaker 3: because they're in daycare and put ribbons on them, and
Speaker 3: as well as trying to be the perfect manager and
Speaker 3: the perfect everything. And I literally got to the point
Speaker 3: it didn't take very long where I one day got
Speaker 3: out of bed, called my boss and said, I can't
Speaker 3: do this anymore. And I think some of us reached
Speaker 3: that and some of us don't, but I think I
Speaker 3: was brave enough to ring up and said something has
Speaker 3: to change. Either I have to give up trying to
Speaker 3: be perfect in every aspect, or I have to find
Speaker 3: a different way particularly of doing the job, or maybe
Speaker 3: I should just quit and do something easier. I was
Speaker 3: lucky enough to be accepted into a leadership development program,
Speaker 3: which sounds very ironic, but basically they broke you down
Speaker 3: and said what does good leadership? And good leadership isn't
Speaker 3: trying to be the best and perfect everything. It actually
Speaker 3: is creating an environment where people thrive. And it took
Speaker 3: a whole lot of letting go and trust and all
Speaker 3: sorts of things, but I did step up into that space.
Speaker 3: And then you don't have to work a million hours
Speaker 3: and have the whole I guess organization on your shoulders.
Speaker 3: So that was a particularly stressful and difficult time. I
Speaker 3: then was able to step up into more I guess
Speaker 3: sing your roles, with the last role being a see
Speaker 3: of the ministry for women. When I did that, my
Speaker 3: husband and I decided we'd have five years on five
Speaker 3: years off. So he took heeded his PhD. I'd just
Speaker 3: like to say, for the record, took him five years.
Speaker 3: Mine took two and a half. When I was doing
Speaker 3: it part time, do you think there's a wee bit
Speaker 3: of focus here, Like there's nothing like having to breastfeed
Speaker 3: at two o'clock to get your PhD down.
Speaker 2: Don't you think those soft skills of mother and come
Speaker 2: into place.
Speaker 3: So there's a focus, there's a I would when I
Speaker 3: was at the ministry for a woman, I sought out
Speaker 3: woman who wanted to work part time because I think
Speaker 3: they would just come and laser focused perform. They're amazing.
Speaker 3: So rather than seeing part time as a as something negative,
Speaker 3: I went searching for it and we just created an organization.
Speaker 3: We mainly had a on Wednesday everybody should be in
Speaker 3: so that we have some connection. And then then it
Speaker 3: didn't matter when people work, and by gosh, we performed.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and so interestingly, I had the five years
Speaker 3: and then we sort of jiggled. I've had enough of
Speaker 3: the big roles. I stepped back into it and started
Speaker 3: my own consulting business, he stepped up into more technical roles.
Speaker 3: I was still around, if that makes sense. I run
Speaker 3: my own business, and I think through my teenage kids
Speaker 3: years it was really important that often come into my
Speaker 3: office and download, which I don't think they would do
Speaker 3: if we were both not in the house. So I
Speaker 3: think that kind of protected us through those years. And
Speaker 3: now they're both off at university and only rang when
Speaker 3: they want money.
Speaker 1: I feel that thank you so much for explaining that,
Speaker 1: because you did right, I would have not you know,
Speaker 1: I was reading about you, and I would never have
Speaker 1: known all the trials and tribulations, in the ups and
Speaker 1: downs that you've had to go through to be we
Speaker 1: who are at today.
Speaker 2: The conversations and decisions that you have to make.
Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, and there is I guess trade offs
Speaker 3: and choices and what I think there is is a
Speaker 3: lot of learning for me. If I wanted to be
Speaker 3: in those senior roles. I completely had to rethink about
Speaker 3: what leadership was, which isn't easy, right, So you need
Speaker 3: to let it go. Let go of all the things
Speaker 3: you're actually good at, which I was quite good at
Speaker 3: technical stuff. Let it go and then learn how to
Speaker 3: be a good creative environment where people could thrive. And
Speaker 3: it's a completely different skill set and you're doing this
Speaker 3: and you haven't really had a good night's sleep for
Speaker 3: five or six years. So I just think we need
Speaker 3: to just share that. It isn't all Rosie and I
Speaker 3: have got some of stories I'd like to share that
Speaker 3: just keep it real. One of my roles was the
Speaker 3: Deputy Children's Commissioner, a role I loved. We're doing some
Speaker 3: work on child poverty and we were briefing the Prime
Speaker 3: Minister in a very small room in Parliament and I
Speaker 3: was quite close to him, and then I walked out
Speaker 3: and I'd missed a call from daycare. I had to
Speaker 3: go and pick the kids up because both of them
Speaker 3: are riddled in knits and so was I, and I
Speaker 3: probably gavens to the Prime Minister and his advices. I
Speaker 3: think we're probably you've got to keep it real, right,
Speaker 3: And it.
Speaker 2: Didn't forgotten about it at.
Speaker 3: The time, did it? And then on our bathroom mirror
Speaker 3: we had to because my husband is an engineer, so
Speaker 3: we had post it notes and when we had to
Speaker 3: comb and it was too weak, trying to get these
Speaker 3: little yeah you can out of our lives right, and
Speaker 3: and one you get the girl like, how did I
Speaker 3: miss it? Because they had quite light and how did
Speaker 3: I miss it? And then how did I get it?
Speaker 3: Of course you had your kids, and I'm sorry, so
Speaker 3: sir john Key, if you if you.
Speaker 2: Ever got that, if you wondered where they came from.
Speaker 3: And the course of your meeting, it was probably me.
Speaker 3: I'll confess now.
Speaker 1: I have PTSD with It's remember one of my children,
Speaker 1: they had them on and off for two years. They
Speaker 1: were in the same classroom for two years. And and
Speaker 1: this kid claims that they were They were in the
Speaker 1: you know, they put the carpet on the walls, and
Speaker 1: they used to sit with the head against the That's
Speaker 1: where they came from.
Speaker 2: And that's like I don't know. But my goodness too.
Speaker 3: Isn't there too that it's not It's just one of
Speaker 3: those things like the like the eyes they get what's
Speaker 3: the one where the eyes get or some CONJUNCTI. Oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: we've had a lot of fat we had doing keynote
Speaker 3: presentations with you know, big panda eyes, Joe.
Speaker 2: What generally happens to women in the workplace when they
Speaker 2: hit middle age.
Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of myths around that we become invisible.
Speaker 3: And I do think there is ageism in the workplace.
Speaker 3: I do think there is something, and I just can
Speaker 3: I just speak from my experience. We get to the
Speaker 3: point where you really are very focused on what you
Speaker 3: care about. You know, you care less about what less
Speaker 3: people you do, care less about what people think. You know,
Speaker 3: you've got a certain amount of time left on the planet.
Speaker 3: You want to make the difference in the area. We
Speaker 3: actually become more more determined and more discerning. I'd like
Speaker 3: to throw a little bit of perimenopause and menopause in there,
Speaker 3: which can give you a nice little edge. I sometimes
Speaker 3: think it's I wish I had that when I was twenty.
Speaker 3: You know, their edge, Yeah, I agree, and you stop
Speaker 3: sort of being the nice girl. So in some ways,
Speaker 3: I think we should be a superpower. So I think
Speaker 3: we should reframe this what happens to women in middle
Speaker 3: life as they become invisible. I think we should be
Speaker 3: taking our space more because we are so skilled, so experts,
Speaker 3: so focused, and we're not going to take it. We're
Speaker 3: not gonna put up with anything. We're like the perfect employees, really,
Speaker 3: So that's certainly been my experience, and I just intend
Speaker 3: to keep stepping up, right. I can see the space,
Speaker 3: can see what's needed. I'm just going to get on
Speaker 3: and do it. So yeah, I just banish the myths, right,
Speaker 3: they're just trying to control us and put us in boxes.
Speaker 3: Let's just smash them.
Speaker 2: Love it.
Speaker 1: So is it then our responsibility to express that to
Speaker 1: our employers.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, if you've got some ambition, if you've got something
Speaker 3: you want to do, like you were in your twenties,
Speaker 3: you would have said what you wanted. Why would we
Speaker 3: stop doing it now? In fact, we're in a much
Speaker 3: better position. We often don't have as many child care responsibilities.
Speaker 3: Often we are able to take more risks. In fact,
Speaker 3: if you look at the research, some of the most
Speaker 3: successful businesses are started by a women in their forties
Speaker 3: and fifties. So I do think we have to fight
Speaker 3: the images that are coming at us that we're aging
Speaker 3: and there's something wrong with us and we're kind of dowdy,
Speaker 3: because I don't know any middle aged women that are
Speaker 3: to know. Yeah, I just think it's a controlled It's
Speaker 3: another part of just being controlled, right, and we should
Speaker 3: just step right the way through it with a smile
Speaker 3: on our face and probably bright red lipstick.
Speaker 1: You said something earlier about the beginning of your career
Speaker 1: feeling like you know that one person can make a
Speaker 1: difference kind of thing.
Speaker 2: I was begging then.
Speaker 1: I was always being told, Luise, one person can't make
Speaker 1: the difference. And I was going home all through my
Speaker 1: sort of late twenties in my career about that, right,
Speaker 1: And then I think I did lose that and kind
Speaker 1: of just went into the meanly of life and jaded
Speaker 1: is the best way to describe it. And I think
Speaker 1: you're onto something with the menopause thing too, because you
Speaker 1: go back to going, well, if I don't try and
Speaker 1: make a difference, what's the point? And you dropped the
Speaker 1: people pleasing but enhance my compassion, I think.
Speaker 3: Mate, absolutely, absolutely, And I have a daughter and I
Speaker 3: want her not to have some of the experiences I
Speaker 3: had coming in the workplace. I sit there and think
Speaker 3: about it when we've looked too older, and you know,
Speaker 3: the generation above or often in the leadership positions while
Speaker 3: they're not, because we are the generation above and we
Speaker 3: need to stand there and stand strong. When I was
Speaker 3: coming up through I guess the leadership ranks there was
Speaker 3: like a little handful of women like three when I
Speaker 3: were looking three or four and they didn't have good reputations.
Speaker 3: They were probably tarred with them more male than male
Speaker 3: kind of brush. And when I look back at them,
Speaker 3: they were absolutely pioneers, right, I think my hat off
Speaker 3: to them. Amazing, But I mean, there wasn't There was
Speaker 3: probably when I was chief executives, probably four or five
Speaker 3: of us out of thirty, so we're still a very
Speaker 3: small monent. I just remember working walking into my first
Speaker 3: sea meeting where they all meet, that's all the seas across,
Speaker 3: and just seeing a sea of blues pin striped suits
Speaker 3: right with everyone. They all sit the same too. I
Speaker 3: shouldn't say that, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: But do you know?
Speaker 3: Yeah? But there was a three or four of us,
Speaker 3: and we said, well, let's lead in a different way.
Speaker 3: Let's actually try and lead in the way let's talk
Speaker 3: about our children's let's celebrate the fact that we are
Speaker 3: mums or of it. If we're not mums, that you know,
Speaker 3: we're human. Let's bring some of this authenticity and let's
Speaker 3: support the woman coming up. Let's see that as our role.
Speaker 3: And a group of us said, if we couldn't say
Speaker 3: something polite and encouraging about a woman, we would not
Speaker 3: talk about her at all. Does that kind of make sense?
Speaker 3: So there was an unwritten rule because there's a sense
Speaker 3: of we're not going to be pitted against each other,
Speaker 3: We're not going to behave like that. We're acually go
Speaker 3: on to set a code and we've going to model that.
Speaker 3: And I think we're seeing that pay off, hopefully for
Speaker 3: the next generation of women who can even lean into
Speaker 3: it even more and be the leaders that they want
Speaker 3: to be. So hats off to those women who broke
Speaker 3: the ceilings. But now us, as middle aged women, we
Speaker 3: have to create again the kind of leadership and kind
Speaker 3: of impact we want as well. And there's enough of us,
Speaker 3: and we're smart, and many of us have got resources,
Speaker 3: and we're in positions. Yeah, we should unite and get
Speaker 3: things sorted.
Speaker 1: And it would be wonderful if we've been able to
Speaker 1: do that regarding the pay gap. But that is still
Speaker 1: an issue facing women, isn't it.
Speaker 3: It just gets me a bit angry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too, me too, Come with you.
Speaker 3: I just can't believe we're still talking about it. And
Speaker 3: it's not for having given it an awful lot of shove.
Speaker 3: You would have many of you would have seen the
Speaker 3: work that are co led onmind the gap. We really
Speaker 3: got close to having the laws in place. We still
Speaker 3: are working. I'm still working away in the background. I
Speaker 3: won't give up up. I do not want my daughter
Speaker 3: to She were times ticking right. So she's at university
Speaker 3: and she's going to hit her first job in two
Speaker 3: or three years. You want the protection that there's transparency,
Speaker 3: that at least it's giving a shove. We know it works.
Speaker 3: What we are learning is more and more about the
Speaker 3: pay gap though, so I guess in the last few
Speaker 3: years we've been able to pull the data apart and
Speaker 3: see what their Pacific woman's pay gap is, what our
Speaker 3: Mardy colleagues are pay gaps like, and more and more
Speaker 3: we'll start to understand what it means for somebody who
Speaker 3: is disabled. I think the pay gaps are just going
Speaker 3: to be, you know, an absolute crime whom we can
Speaker 3: get good data. For those who are neurodiverse, we're going
Speaker 3: to see all sorts of different like humans just find
Speaker 3: so many ways to discriminate against people based on who
Speaker 3: they are, not what they do, and not how they perform.
Speaker 3: That's the essence, right, you be paid for what you contribute,
Speaker 3: not for some box that somebody's put you into. Right,
Speaker 3: I think that all of us, if we're in positions
Speaker 3: of power, if we lead people, have an opportunity to
Speaker 3: tackle the pay gap. And it is just one decision
Speaker 3: at a time across the country. So if you are listening,
Speaker 3: and if you do have team leaders, make sure that
Speaker 3: you have no gaps, that you nothing that you can't justify,
Speaker 3: nothing that isn't completely rational in your team.
Speaker 1: From my experience, Joe, if I'm in a negotiation or
Speaker 1: over a contract and paying things like that, I tend
Speaker 1: to be so excited that I've got a job that
Speaker 1: I forget to step back and be And I've got
Speaker 1: better at it as i've got older. I've pushed back
Speaker 1: and I've questioned things, and I've asked for more. But
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the time we might get
Speaker 1: a job offer and there might be some flexibility with workouts,
Speaker 1: and we go, oh, that's so great, that's fantastic. You know,
Speaker 1: as a mother, that's really helpful. So I'm hugely appreciative
Speaker 1: of that. So I'll do yes, yes, yes, that's fine.
Speaker 1: And I think I don't know if we're really all
Speaker 1: that good. And I'm just speaking on my own behalf.
Speaker 1: But I'm wondering with women as a whole, are really
Speaker 1: good at actually stepping up and asking for that information?
Speaker 2: And what are my other equals getting paid?
Speaker 1: You know, we're just not really good at putting ourselves
Speaker 1: out there and kind of being a bit more inquisitive
Speaker 1: and demanding of our employers.
Speaker 3: Demanding, I think is the right word. Actually, the research
Speaker 3: would beck you we are likely to take the first offer,
Speaker 3: And if you talk to anyone who's in a recruitment company,
Speaker 3: they'll say the same thing. Women will take the first offer,
Speaker 3: men will ask for the second or third. And I
Speaker 3: think there's a lot into this, and I don't actually
Speaker 3: think it's just us not wanting to be demanding. There's
Speaker 3: very much a sense of if we did start to
Speaker 3: be demanding, are we're always already putting ourselves in the
Speaker 3: difficult woman category? And do you want to do that?
Speaker 3: Are we going to be typecast and stereotyped as we go?
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of things that are happening in
Speaker 3: and around the context, but one of the most powerful
Speaker 3: ways is actually to do your homework, know what the
Speaker 3: job is worth, have done your research, looked at what
Speaker 3: it's been advertised for. Ask the recruiter if there is
Speaker 3: one or hr what the band is? You know, do
Speaker 3: all your research or you're not going in there in
Speaker 3: any way emotional. It's quite a rational business transaction that
Speaker 3: you would expect. Take the emotion out of it and
Speaker 3: go listen, this is what my research shows a job
Speaker 3: and I am worth and don't say can I please
Speaker 3: have it? I don't want to be difficult, but no,
Speaker 3: I don't be difficult. Just make it a rational business
Speaker 3: transaction because ultimately that's what it is. You're selling your
Speaker 3: time and labor for a price, right, and just take
Speaker 3: it like you might go on Hagel when you want
Speaker 3: a discount off you know, your favorite shoes. Sometimes we
Speaker 3: go and ask. Sometimes we don't. Just pretend it's your
Speaker 3: favorite shoes and you want them, you want a bit
Speaker 3: of discount off them.
Speaker 1: There you go, gosh, you know that you said that
Speaker 1: band where bands do my head? And I'm in an
Speaker 1: organization where it's all about bands, And it can be
Speaker 1: the difference between you could do the same job that
Speaker 1: give it a different name exactly, and you've.
Speaker 2: Got to know those and they shouldn't be tricks like
Speaker 2: you say.
Speaker 3: It should be tricks, and that's why there's a gender
Speaker 3: paygapp right, because it's fascinating. When I talk to colleagues
Speaker 3: who are very unionized and have lots of bands, they say, well,
Speaker 3: we kind of protected from the gender pay gap, And
Speaker 3: I said, we'll go and ask where people are situated
Speaker 3: in what bands, and then where in the bands they
Speaker 3: are and see if there's any patterns, and not surprisingly
Speaker 3: there is. You're not necessarily protected by the structure. You
Speaker 3: need to know where somebody of your experience would usually sit.
Speaker 3: It is quite a rational transaction data gathering to do
Speaker 3: that as well, and it can actually then be powerful
Speaker 3: because you can argue upper band right, and that can
Speaker 3: be quite a substantial jump too. So use it as
Speaker 3: a tool for yourself as well.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Little Things and our guest on
Speaker 1: the podcast today is Joe kreb autho mentor and career coach,
Speaker 1: amongst many other things. Will be back shortly after this break. Joe,
Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about the motherhood penalty. Can you
Speaker 1: tell us what that phrase means?
Speaker 3: It basically means that even though you have some time
Speaker 3: off and often think about it, we often talk about
Speaker 3: return to work and This makes me so angry because
Speaker 3: I don't know anyone who's been at home with babies.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of work involved, right, So you're not
Speaker 3: returning to work, you're just doing a different type of work.
Speaker 3: Actually probably an easier type of work when you can
Speaker 3: go to the toilet by yourself and get a cup
Speaker 3: of d actually finished the cup of tea was kind
Speaker 3: of my experience. So the mother food penalty is that
Speaker 3: if you do take time out from the workplace, when
Speaker 3: you return, you often don't return at the same level
Speaker 3: as your peers, so the work that you've done at
Speaker 3: home isn't recognized, and often you'll go back in a
Speaker 3: part time capacity and we pay a part time penalty.
Speaker 3: We know again if the public service is a great
Speaker 3: example because you can get the whole set of data
Speaker 3: for the whole sector. Regardless, if you go back part time,
Speaker 3: you're going to be paid ten percent less than your
Speaker 3: colleagues at work full time. So there's these penalties built in,
Speaker 3: right in terms of that you've lost or your I
Speaker 3: guess any potential increments over the time that you're away,
Speaker 3: and if you want to go back into sort of
Speaker 3: a more part time perhaps even one inflexible. You're probably
Speaker 3: going to be punished for it over a period of
Speaker 3: time when we start to look at it, women don't
Speaker 3: catch up to their male colleagues usually, and so over
Speaker 3: a period of time you wear the mental motherhood penalty.
Speaker 3: And we can start to see this in our key
Speaker 3: we save our data. The Retirement Commission has done amazing work.
Speaker 3: We were retiring, you know, with twenty thirty percent less
Speaker 3: than somebody who've done a similar job. And now that
Speaker 3: makes huge differences in our We have huge differences in
Speaker 3: our life choices. Right, So yes, it's very clear, it's
Speaker 3: very well researched, it's very evidence based, and I think
Speaker 3: most of us have been through it. No, and I
Speaker 3: guess if it experienced it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll share a personal anecdote which just blows
Speaker 1: my mind. I left the workforce to have my Well,
Speaker 1: I didn't leave the workforce today. I went to the
Speaker 1: motherhood workforce in two thousand and four to have my
Speaker 1: first child and cut me board. I was earning reasonable
Speaker 1: money on a nice trajectory within a DHB setting. I
Speaker 1: had three children in the end, did part time work
Speaker 1: for various things, and then I went back at least thirteen,
Speaker 1: fourteen years ago, and I went back on twenty to
Speaker 1: the same job for twenty thousand dollars less, and I
Speaker 1: have still not caught up to the salary that I
Speaker 1: was on when I went on intentionally leave and real
Speaker 1: dollar money. You know, that means I've gone significantly backwards
Speaker 1: because he's twenty and that time. My husband just followed
Speaker 1: the trajectory, right. I mean, he's not the same, he's
Speaker 1: in the private sector, slightly different. But I just that's
Speaker 1: when I get I always get terry when I think
Speaker 1: about that, because I just, holy Guachamoley, it's just crazy.
Speaker 1: But I'm also one of those people as Francesca was
Speaker 1: talking about before that goes has justified it over and
Speaker 1: over again. Because I'm part time. I get a bit
Speaker 1: of travel with my job that I do. Now I've
Speaker 1: gotten to go to conferences overseas and I've gotten to
Speaker 1: do things. Wait a minute, If I'm worthy of going
Speaker 1: to a conference overseas and speaking to an international audience,
Speaker 1: I'm worthy of that salary on you know.
Speaker 2: So it's yeah, it.
Speaker 3: Sounds like you I have to put your big deal
Speaker 3: and you've got to have to do your research right,
Speaker 3: and so rather than saying this and take all the
Speaker 3: terry which I understand, out of it and just make
Speaker 3: a business case for yourself and have a we chat.
Speaker 1: Right, this is why we're talking to you. We need
Speaker 1: this motivation job. I was just laughing. I was just
Speaker 1: thinking the exact same thing going loo and I'm going
Speaker 1: to have to have a really good talk to ourselves.
Speaker 1: But this is partly why we're doing this too, Frenchy Skins,
Speaker 1: because you know, we're not invisible, and.
Speaker 3: What is what is the worst that can happen? They say, no, oh,
Speaker 3: do you know? Like I mean, obviously there and you
Speaker 3: might have to think about what plan B is then,
Speaker 3: But I mean the chances are if you are both
Speaker 3: valued workers and every day we forget this. Every day
Speaker 3: we're in a job, we're more valuable. We learn more,
Speaker 3: we have connections, we're more of the brand, we're more
Speaker 3: of the delivery. So every day you're more valuable. So yeah,
Speaker 3: pitch it.
Speaker 2: I think too.
Speaker 1: When you return to work after having kids, there is
Speaker 1: a bit of wave and self confidence sometimes, Joe, you're
Speaker 1: getting back into it. You're trying to you are trying
Speaker 1: to justify. Actually, I used to be very good at
Speaker 1: this and I'm back, and that's fine. I can do
Speaker 1: this while also having the mental load of carrying a
Speaker 1: family and looking after children and things like that. So
Speaker 1: I think that sometimes imposter syndrome or there's a little
Speaker 1: bit of self doubt kind of creeps in. I think
Speaker 1: that's very natural as well.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think about particularly my experience having two babies
Speaker 3: quite quickly. Your body completely changes, right, and all the
Speaker 3: sciences your mind has as well. You probably haven't slept well.
Speaker 3: And I just think my children knew when I had
Speaker 3: a big day coming up the next day, because that's
Speaker 3: when they'd come and you know, they'd start crying at
Speaker 3: three am in the morning. They're just knew. I think
Speaker 3: it was there their gift to keep me on edge,
Speaker 3: don't you think.
Speaker 4: Probably, Yeah, you're constantly I think we're constantly kind of
Speaker 4: living in that we don't know what's coming next, in
Speaker 4: terms of when somebody's gone to get sick, you know
Speaker 4: when you're going to get there phone call.
Speaker 3: You're always constantly on edge. There isn't a lot of downtime,
Speaker 3: and if there's downtime, you're probably sleeping. And all of
Speaker 3: this is a completely heady mix. If you wrote it
Speaker 3: down all the kind of conditions that you'd look at
Speaker 3: it and say, well, that's kind of nearly torture, not sleeping,
Speaker 3: not knowing what's on edge, when the lights are going
Speaker 3: to go, and what are you going to you know,
Speaker 3: and there's a lot to process because you're particularly for
Speaker 3: well this is my experience. My husband was amazing. He
Speaker 3: was at home for a few weeks and then he
Speaker 3: went back to his life, do you know, And it's
Speaker 3: you who kind of has to kind of juggle with
Speaker 3: or you know, often doing the huge amount of the
Speaker 3: emotional load as well on top of the load, so
Speaker 3: it's actually heading mix. I just think me and we're
Speaker 3: probably trying to keep our standards up too, like you know,
Speaker 3: no piles of washing or you know, if the cat
Speaker 3: is sick in the corner, you clean it up immediately.
Speaker 3: Like I don't know, even higher standards than that. We're
Speaker 3: putting a lot on ourselves. So I just I wish
Speaker 3: we'd be easier on ourselves and go this is actually
Speaker 3: just it would be tough for anyone. But I also
Speaker 3: think imposter SINDO syndrome doesn't go away. And all the
Speaker 3: people that I've talked to, men included, have it that
Speaker 3: it does come, and I always think of it as
Speaker 3: something sitting on my shoulder saying, we're going to catch
Speaker 3: you out. Can I again? I can tell you that
Speaker 3: if you ever think you've got a slightly mad I'll
Speaker 3: give you a story that's even worse. So I did
Speaker 3: my PhD when I had my two kids and I graduated,
Speaker 3: and I was actually had done it quite quickly, and
Speaker 3: I was quite proud of it. But I also when
Speaker 3: I got the massive, big PhD certificate, I left it
Speaker 3: in the drawer of my front dresser. But you know,
Speaker 3: have you got one of those in the hallway where
Speaker 3: you just all the crap goes? Anyway, I left it
Speaker 3: in there because I just had this sneaky feeling that
Speaker 3: university would come and ask for it back and it
Speaker 3: should be near the front door.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's total right. So it taught me years to
Speaker 3: be able to hang it up to go. Actually I
Speaker 3: earned this because I think I was in that completely
Speaker 3: fragile state right that you didn't quite believe you were
Speaker 3: doing good work. We actually I always felt like I
Speaker 3: was actually never doing anything well, kind of constant feeling
Speaker 3: of never able to do anything. I know that feeling yeah,
Speaker 3: And I just think we need to lean into it
Speaker 3: and just go these periods of your life when actually
Speaker 3: there's just going to be the reality, and the more
Speaker 3: we can laugh about it and share about it and
Speaker 3: not pretend that we've got it all together, because I
Speaker 3: think there is a we kind of. I think even
Speaker 3: as women, we share. Do you know, we make it
Speaker 3: look good, like we put the bows on the presence, Like, really,
Speaker 3: I could have been sitting having a glass of wine
Speaker 3: rather than putting bows on presents for toddlers who don't care,
Speaker 3: do you know? But I was. You're not doing it
Speaker 3: for the toddlers, right, You're doing it to show that
Speaker 3: I'm you know, look at me, I'm awesome, I'm coping.
Speaker 3: Got it going on all levels. And really I think
Speaker 3: we should just say, just, I don't know, take the
Speaker 3: photo and put it on Instagram, Well what your lounge
Speaker 3: actually looks like? And it's probably left like mine, it's
Speaker 3: got a wreck with some mondays on it at the moment,
Speaker 3: But would.
Speaker 4: You do that?
Speaker 2: I think a franchise gas too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. We've talked over and over about and one thing
Speaker 1: I think I've realized is with age is literally nothing
Speaker 1: is linear, even our own fitness is not linear. Nothing
Speaker 1: is linear, So why would our careers be, why would
Speaker 1: our life at home be. It's just not like that.
Speaker 1: It's a big muddley mess sometimes.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And the more we can share that, I think,
Speaker 3: the more we're able to invite others, because I always
Speaker 3: used to. Once I got to see I can remember
Speaker 3: standing up and doing a really big keynote and saying,
Speaker 3: and I was wearing a back then it was still
Speaker 3: only like twenty twenty five. We wore dresses. I don't
Speaker 3: think I've worn a dress since COVID kind of, but
Speaker 3: I was wearing a dress, and I without any stockings.
Speaker 3: It was summer, and I said to them, if you
Speaker 3: look closely, you'll see my legs aren't shaped because I
Speaker 3: haven't had time. But I think it's really important to
Speaker 3: stand up to this big group of women and say
Speaker 3: I haven't met the beauty standards of our day. And
Speaker 3: everyone just laughed and laughed and laughed. But don't you
Speaker 3: think that's important that we kind of do that? And
Speaker 3: I even went to a meeting, an evening meeting where
Speaker 3: again I was doing a big presentation, and I gone
Speaker 3: home from work, cooked dinner. It spilt a bit of
Speaker 3: tomato source on my thing, and I still went to
Speaker 3: the meeting with it as an act of defiance.
Speaker 2: Makes sense, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: And I have never felt so good standing up and
Speaker 3: saying and owning the fact that I was a working mum.
Speaker 3: And you know what, it isn't always perfect. And if
Speaker 3: we can, for those of us in leadership positions and
Speaker 3: feel confident enough to do it, if we're doing that,
Speaker 3: do you know what, it just makes it. It makes
Speaker 3: those roles more accessible too, because you don't have to
Speaker 3: be this perfect superhuman because I don't know, I haven't
Speaker 3: met one yet. And actually it gives us more opportunities, right,
Speaker 3: You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to
Speaker 3: wait until the kids at X or you've got this
Speaker 3: under control. You can step into it because, as you say,
Speaker 3: it's messy, imperfect. Sometimes it's damn right funny.
Speaker 2: Sometimes really can be.
Speaker 1: I've just been to the fiftieth of a friend of
Speaker 1: mine who I would say is, you know, my most corporate,
Speaker 1: high level CFO. And she had this beautiful dinner with
Speaker 1: I think seventeen or nineteen people there, and as she
Speaker 1: introduced us, all she you know, I look at her
Speaker 1: and go, wow, how on earth? Like she's just a dynamo,
Speaker 1: right and got so much at fifty and so forth.
Speaker 1: But when she introduced us, all she introduced us as
Speaker 1: the people who've gotten her there, like literally everybody in
Speaker 1: that room had contributed to where she is, just not
Speaker 1: just in her job, but in her life. And it
Speaker 1: was really moving. It was one of the best. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's why she's still and what she's doing,
Speaker 1: because she's.
Speaker 2: So good at this stuff.
Speaker 1: But I just left floating on a cloud, and as
Speaker 1: did everybody there, because it was this appreciation and reality
Speaker 1: of the village that it takes just to raise a child,
Speaker 1: but to raise an adult. Absolutely, Joe, what if we
Speaker 1: do if we get to a point we might have
Speaker 1: been working twenty thirty, forty years and all of a
Speaker 1: sudden you think this isn't really hugely fulfilling anymore.
Speaker 2: I would love to make a change. How do you
Speaker 2: go about that? Where do you start thinking about it?
Speaker 1: Because it can be often just a lot easier to
Speaker 1: stay where you are with what you're doing.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And unfortunately I think a lot of people
Speaker 3: just do that, right, And I see so many people
Speaker 3: who just go to work and it does make me sad.
Speaker 3: I mean, there are financial realities and here people are
Speaker 3: doing a great job because they're providing for their families,
Speaker 3: and I just think that's amazing. But when I have
Speaker 3: not surprisingly, I have a lot of coaching clients who
Speaker 3: come to me and says, you know, life doesn't work.
Speaker 3: What I always say is go back to your values.
Speaker 3: And we don't actually think about them very much. We
Speaker 3: think about what we're going to have for dinner and
Speaker 3: are there enough sports socks to wear to the gym tomorrow?
Speaker 3: Do you know? Like that's the and rightly so, because
Speaker 3: that's really important and just to take that time to
Speaker 3: sit back and say what do I actually really care about?
Speaker 3: And there probably is only three or four things that
Speaker 3: probably if you look back, they've been enduring, and the
Speaker 3: chances are you've kind of drifted away from them if
Speaker 3: you're feeling unsatisfied, so you perhaps your job or the
Speaker 3: way you've structured your life is moving away from your values.
Speaker 3: That's when we really if we move too far away,
Speaker 3: that's where we really start to become you know, unhappy
Speaker 3: or all the emotions come out. And we can see
Speaker 3: that often we can see that in others, right you
Speaker 3: can see they're in spaces where they're so far away
Speaker 3: from who they are. So I think that's the point.
Speaker 3: I know that sounds all woo woo and should light
Speaker 3: a candle and dance around and sing folk songs or something,
Speaker 3: but it is and I think and there are a
Speaker 3: lot of tools online that can give you lists and
Speaker 3: lists and lists of values. So just go and I
Speaker 3: think that is a really good exercise. Take some time,
Speaker 3: look at them, do it over a period of a
Speaker 3: week or so, and then go and use it to
Speaker 3: order to your life. Is my job now giving me
Speaker 3: the opportunity to live to these values? Other way that
Speaker 3: I'm doing things living to these values? And I just
Speaker 3: think that's the anchor. Whether we like it or not.
Speaker 3: We probably have made even consciously or consciously made choices
Speaker 3: that take us there. But we can also drift away
Speaker 3: from them. So yeah, I know that it sounds a
Speaker 3: bit floaty. I think it's absolutely critical because then you've
Speaker 3: got the rock to go. Okay, not if if I've
Speaker 3: drifted away from them, what is going to take me back? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well, I think half the problem is actually you know
Speaker 1: you want to change, but you don't know what that changes.
Speaker 1: So that's how that's how you start taking those steps
Speaker 1: towards it. I think there are often lots of different
Speaker 1: ways that we can change what we're doing, whether it's
Speaker 1: going to your employer and going, look, I'm really loving
Speaker 1: what I'm doing, but i'd like to I'd like to
Speaker 1: step up. I'd like to go back and study. Can
Speaker 1: I go part time? And you know, would you support
Speaker 1: me in going to do some study or some retraining
Speaker 1: or up skilling or something I'm you know, so you
Speaker 1: might potentially sort of stay in the same job but
Speaker 1: find get some new inspission. Because I think it's really
Speaker 1: important that we are constantly learning.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I couldn't agree more. And we often think
Speaker 3: of study as this like school or university, so that's
Speaker 3: this big formal weight that we take on, but I
Speaker 3: actually think about I think we should think about learning
Speaker 3: and you can do that quite easy. And a lot
Speaker 3: of the education system are being developed so that they're
Speaker 3: giving us bite sized knowledge as we go, so you
Speaker 3: could even retrain and bite sized bits you don't. You know,
Speaker 3: there's all sorts of opportunities here that goes back to
Speaker 3: knowing what you want to do. But I also think
Speaker 3: there's another piece. The world that we are going to
Speaker 3: work in is only going to become more tech enabled,
Speaker 3: and we can see that coming at us from everywhere
Speaker 3: right whether we like it. Our phones are giving us
Speaker 3: AI prompts continuously. Everything is going to have a basis
Speaker 3: on it, and that's going to end up in our workplace.
Speaker 3: So we are going to end up having to work
Speaker 3: alongside all of us along AI assisted tools. We can
Speaker 3: resist them, we can fight it, or we can understand
Speaker 3: and be useful. The more discerning we are, the more
Speaker 3: useful these tools will be. Or we may not choose to,
Speaker 3: but at least we've lean into the conversation and there
Speaker 3: is so much on offer of free, good, bite sized
Speaker 3: learning to get our heads around what is when I
Speaker 3: put something into CHETCHPD, what is it actually doing? I mean,
Speaker 3: I have zero ten My tech assistant is my was
Speaker 3: my eighteen year old son, and now he's gone to
Speaker 3: university and I'm flying blind. Do you know we're at
Speaker 3: that level of tech? But I've worked it out and
Speaker 3: as soon as you kind of understand how clear it
Speaker 3: is and what it can do, but also what it
Speaker 3: can't do and why it's going to make mistakes. And
Speaker 3: I'm starting to do a little online course on prompt engineering.
Speaker 3: How can I get the best out of AI? So
Speaker 3: I'm leaning into it. So you're kind of not afraid
Speaker 3: when change in tools comes, you're going to be ready
Speaker 3: to use them. And I just think all of us
Speaker 3: need to think about our attitude towards tools and technology
Speaker 3: and how we can use it to help us and
Speaker 3: not be afraid. Right, it's only a tool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 1: I'm involved in participant based research, which anyone involved in
Speaker 1: participant based research will realize how much it has changed.
Speaker 2: You used to beat. My boss used to say, I
Speaker 2: don't understand.
Speaker 1: We just used to be able to phone someone at home,
Speaker 1: you know, a mother post nationally. Have you got time
Speaker 1: for an interviewer to come up visit, of course I have.
Speaker 1: You know people don'ly answer their phones anymore. We're going
Speaker 1: to have to get clever and use TikTok.
Speaker 3: Yep. Absolutely alien totally and you won't need to transcribe
Speaker 3: anything again. I mean the hours and hours and hours
Speaker 3: I did when I was doing my PhD transcribing. AI
Speaker 3: will do it as you go, right, and all you're
Speaker 3: doing is checking it, So it actually is going to
Speaker 3: those kind of tools can make things easier for us.
Speaker 3: But as you say, the way we might connect with
Speaker 3: people is going to be quite different, all through different mediums,
Speaker 3: and we need to have our heads around this. And
Speaker 3: I'll take it back to being I guess a middle
Speaker 3: aged woman in the workplace. The stereotype is that will
Speaker 3: be the ones that are frightened like that man. We
Speaker 3: got to don that, like, how can this make my
Speaker 3: life easier? Right? We should be thinking what's in this
Speaker 3: for me, what's not? And for me what are the
Speaker 3: opportunities here? But also what's the downside? And there are
Speaker 3: downsides and being part of the conversation and decision making
Speaker 3: around these tools rather than having the world done to
Speaker 3: us because we haven't got this far to take that.
Speaker 2: I agree, well I did.
Speaker 1: I did have a little giggle to myself when I
Speaker 1: read the title of your latest book, Don't Worry about
Speaker 1: the robots, because I do worry about the robots. So
Speaker 1: this is obviously perfectly aimed for me how to survive
Speaker 1: and thrive in the new world of work.
Speaker 2: That's really really good advice.
Speaker 1: Joe, Hey, could we finish off by just talking about
Speaker 1: how do we value women's unpaid work? How do we
Speaker 1: celebrate the contribution of mothers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's for me, it was. It's kind of the
Speaker 3: one of the last big hurdles. Does that kind of
Speaker 3: make sense? And I don't even think it's even It's
Speaker 3: more than motherhood, right, it's the emotional labor that women
Speaker 3: do in the workplace of you seen one of your
Speaker 3: male colleagues by a farewell gift.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: Do you know? So it's the it's the invisible glue
Speaker 3: that holds I think the planet together is women unpaid
Speaker 3: emotional labor, and it's invisible, right, and it's taken for granted.
Speaker 3: And as you say, it's raising the next generation of humanity.
Speaker 3: Not to say we don't have amazing dads. I think
Speaker 3: we are seeing a movement there in more and more
Speaker 3: dads wanting to be involved. But there still is a default, right,
Speaker 3: and there still is a whole lot of norms around
Speaker 3: that we still don't have. Even though they can, men
Speaker 3: don't tend to take their parental leave. I just think
Speaker 3: it's way more than it's the emotional load of who
Speaker 3: organizes Christmas, who gets to get togethers, who looks after
Speaker 3: people when they're sick, And if we could. I think
Speaker 3: that we need to kind of make it visible, is
Speaker 3: my sense. I think that's the first step. And we
Speaker 3: did have a time use survey in New Zealand in
Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties. We did it once and it was
Speaker 3: so enlightening. So people are that, you know, thousands of
Speaker 3: thousands of people given diaries and asked to write down exactly
Speaker 3: what they did all day, and it shed a light
Speaker 3: on just how much was happening in and around our
Speaker 3: communities and how important that was. I have advocated that
Speaker 3: we do it again because unless we see it, we
Speaker 3: can't and quantify it and make it visible. All this
Speaker 3: amazing work isn't valued, right because it just happens.
Speaker 1: It just seems like something that should happen each decade.
Speaker 1: I'm omened for that. I'll participate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll run it, I'll do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also think that amazing work that happens, say
Speaker 3: in our Pacific and Mali communities, in their amazing volume
Speaker 3: of work and productivity that happens here, that isn't necessarily
Speaker 3: measured by our GDP. Again, it's just making what actually
Speaker 3: happens and what actually matters invisible again, right, So the
Speaker 3: only thing that we really see data on is when
Speaker 3: we've been paid an hour, and that just is such
Speaker 3: a small piece of what happens in this amazing country.
Speaker 4: Joe.
Speaker 1: We're all about the little things and making small little
Speaker 1: changes in our lives rather than trying to sort of
Speaker 1: turn them upside down and everything. So, just to finish off,
Speaker 1: if you were going to give one little piece of
Speaker 1: advice to women, maybe middle laid women who are sort
Speaker 1: of thinking about their careers at the moment and where
Speaker 1: they want to go and where they're sitting right now,
Speaker 1: what would you say to them?
Speaker 3: I would say, poor, a very nice glass of chardonnay
Speaker 3: or sev one evening or a non alcoholic substitute, and
Speaker 3: google values and spend some time on your own working
Speaker 3: out what you actually care for care about, and then
Speaker 3: do an audit of your life and say, am I
Speaker 3: being true to myself? And then take the next step
Speaker 3: in the areas where you're not. And I think it's
Speaker 3: a really good investment and we should do it quite often,
Speaker 3: if not leave it to the point where we're tired
Speaker 3: and a bit burnt out. So just I think we
Speaker 3: look after everyone else, but I think we need to
Speaker 3: spend that little time in saying we're going to be stronger,
Speaker 3: we're going to be better, we're going to make more
Speaker 3: of an impact, We're going to make more of a
Speaker 3: difference if we're actually being true to ourselves.
Speaker 1: And I love that because if you do do that,
Speaker 1: I'm going to do that. I think you probably find
Speaker 1: that there are aspects of your life where you are
Speaker 1: really true to yourself. So it's not going to be
Speaker 1: a one thing. Oh I've got to throw it all out.
Speaker 1: It's going to be a oh I need to tweak
Speaker 1: that or I need to Yeah.
Speaker 3: Sure, and it's unlikely to be Thelma and Louise though
Speaker 3: if it is, but no, it and what it just
Speaker 3: does is take us back to how we are going
Speaker 3: to be the best version of us as if we
Speaker 3: are being true to ourselves.
Speaker 1: Joe, it has been such a delight to get to
Speaker 1: know you. Thank you so much for your time. We
Speaker 1: really really appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's been an extent pleasure. And thank you for
Speaker 3: the amazing work that you were doing.
Speaker 2: I so enjoyed meeting Joe. Louise. I am absolutely going
Speaker 2: to pick up her book.
Speaker 1: Her latest book is called Don't Worry About the Robots,
Speaker 1: How To survive and thrive in the new world of
Speaker 1: work because I am. I am worried about the robots,
Speaker 1: and I need to I need to be working on
Speaker 1: future proofing my career. Look, I could have avoided it
Speaker 1: till the cows come home, but the way she spoke
Speaker 1: about it made me want to embrace it. Actually, she
Speaker 1: was refreshing, honest, yes and positive. I guess this is
Speaker 1: the thing I'll take away about and I love her
Speaker 1: attitude towards middle aged women in their careers.
Speaker 2: It's time, It's our time. I just like the way
Speaker 2: she went.
Speaker 1: Don't think about being invisible, don't think about being ignored
Speaker 1: at work.
Speaker 2: Get yourself out there, front and center. Work out what
Speaker 2: you want, go for it, use.
Speaker 1: That lovely little ledge that we get and look, we
Speaker 1: no longer know feel the need to please everybody.
Speaker 2: And you know, I will.
Speaker 1: Be doing the values exercise and I'll be encouraging my
Speaker 1: daughter to do that too as she sets out on
Speaker 1: her studies for next year. Thanks for joining us on
Speaker 1: our New Zealand Herald podcast series, The Little Things. We
Speaker 1: hope you share this podcast with the women in your
Speaker 1: lives so we can all get a little bit more stoppy.
Speaker 2: And demanding of our employers. Nice.
Speaker 1: You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and for more on this and other topics,
Speaker 1: head to enzet Herald dot co dot nzet and we'll
Speaker 1: catch you next time on the Little Things