1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by Two Degrees Business. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: I'm Peter Griffin and in this episode, we're unpacking one 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: of the most impactful changes coming to New Zealand's financial 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: landscape and years, the rollout of a mandatory open banking 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: regime from December. After years of frustration with the slow 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: pace of progress, there's finally light at the end of 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: the tunnel. New regulations set by the Ministry of Business, 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: Innovation and Employment are about to make open banking a 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: reality officially, not just a promise, but a regulated system 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: stitched right into the Customer and Product Data Act. What 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: does that mean for you? In practical terms, it's about 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: taking control. Soon you'll be able to securely connect your 13 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: bank account to budgeting apps, accounting software, and loan applications 14 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: without handing over your log in credentials. We're navigating a 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: web of voluntary, unsanctioned connections. For years, third party FinTechs 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: have worked in a sort of gray area, relying on 17 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: things like screen scraping and ad hoc contracts around things 18 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: like application programming interfaces. But all that's about to change. 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: This week. I'm joined by Josh Daniel, co founder of Akahu, 20 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: one of the local pioneers in open banking connectivity. We 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: break down a new regime's impacts on not only consumers, 22 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: but on competition in the banking sector. Josh explains how 23 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: New Zealand's approach borrows lessons from the UK and Australian particular, 24 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: where uptake has been a bit slow, and crucially why 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: our rules are likely to deliver faster broader adoption. The 26 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: four big banks will finally be required to provide APIs 27 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: to any accredited third party. We get into the promise 28 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: and the limitations of real time payments, how news services 29 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: could finally make switching banks easier and arise hopefully of 30 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: maverick companies poised to shake up the staid financial landscape. 31 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: And as with anything involved with your money, we'll tackle 32 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: the big questions of the privacy and trust, what protections 33 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,399 Speaker 1: will be in place and what risks remain when more 34 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: companies can access your financial data. It's a fascinating look 35 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: at the pivotal tech shift that's coming to fintech and 36 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: open banking, one that hopefully will finally spare some real 37 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: innovation and better deals for key consumers. Here's my interview 38 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: with Okahu co founder Josh Daniel. Josh, Welcome to the 39 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: Business of Tech. Very good, please to be here, Josh, 40 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: I'm enlisting your help to try and unpack where we've 41 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: got to with open banking in New Zealand. We've been 42 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: talking about it for a long time. There's been a 43 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: lot of frustration that it's been slow to get going. 44 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: But in the last year eighteen months, a flurry of 45 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: activity and on December one, the open banking regulations that 46 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment have been finalizing 47 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: will become operational. So waho about that. Still work to 48 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 1: do around standards and operationalizing open banking, but it will 49 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: soon be a mandated thing, dovetailing into the Customer and 50 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: Product Data Act. Before we get into exactly what all 51 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: of that means, Josh, give us the background of your company, 52 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: a Carho, which you co founded in December twenty twenty 53 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: with Ben Lynch. What exactly does a Carho do. 54 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: We're in open banking intermediay, so that means that we 55 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: specialize in data integrations with New Zealand banks and other 56 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: financial service providers, and we provide that connectivity. 57 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 3: To other products. 58 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: So the way this shows up for consumers as say 59 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: you're using accounting software where you want bank feeds so 60 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: that your transaction data automatically feeds into accounting software. 61 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 3: We'd be the data pipes that. 62 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: Enable that connection with your bank account. Same for personal 63 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: budgeting tools where again you want that account information to 64 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: feed automatically in, or a loan application where you want 65 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: to share your financial data with the lender to simplify 66 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: that application process. So basically you can think about it 67 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 2: like programmatic connectivity with your bank account, and then you 68 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 2: as a consumer can choose whether you want to grant 69 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: that access to a third party. So you'll wear the 70 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: infrastructure layer in open banking, and we provide our services 71 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: to a little over eighty five products around New Zealand, 72 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: and we're just New Zealand focused. 73 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: So until now, many organizations have been getting access to 74 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: customers bank data to offer a range of third party 75 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: financial services. It's probably not very transparent to the customer 76 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: what goes on in the background to make that happen. 77 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: It's unregulated. The involvement of the bank's been pretty much 78 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: voluntary to date, and there's been varying levels of enthusiasm 79 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: around that. I've heard of companies using methods like screen scraping, 80 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: which is effectively giving a bot access to a customer's 81 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: bank account and automatically capturing the data on the screen 82 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: in the background without the customer needing to be present, 83 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: and in using that data outside the customer's banking portal. 84 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: There's been more extensive use of so called application programming 85 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 1: interfaces APIs in conjunction with the banks too, which is great. 86 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: So Josh, what exactly is now changing with this move 87 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: to the new regulated system. 88 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if you think about products like zero 89 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: been around for about nineteen years, Pocketsmith with personal budgeting 90 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: tools for over seventeen years. There are a whole lot 91 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 2: of products where consumers in New Zealand have been able 92 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: to connect their bank data to those products, but the 93 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: way that those connections of work has been unregulated. There 94 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 2: are different methods that are used in market, and they're 95 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: not optimal because the consumer doesn't have full control of 96 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: how those connections work. And any product that wants those 97 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 2: kind of data feeds either has to go and get 98 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 2: a contract with each bank in order to integrate with them, 99 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 2: or they have to do it in a way that 100 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: isn't sanctioned by the bank, so they have to connect 101 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: to bank systems in a way that is unsanctioned. So 102 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 2: over the last twenty years there has been a build 103 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 2: up of consumer demand for this type of connectivity to 104 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: a point where there's more than a million kiwis each 105 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: year in New Zealand using unregulated open banking methods. So 106 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: around the world and in New Zealand, there has been 107 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,559 Speaker 2: this move towards regulating this because that can sweep away 108 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 2: the patchwork of contracts that allow all of it to 109 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 2: work currently and put the consumers in control. Because with 110 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: the regulated system, a product provider or an intermediary like 111 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: US can become accredited, and once you're credited under that regime, 112 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: as of right, you get to access these regulated open 113 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 2: banking APIs. So that puts the consumer more in the 114 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 2: driving seat, because it's now not up to each bank 115 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: to determine which products a consumer can share their data with. 116 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: It is now up to the consumer to choose, and 117 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: so that centralized accreditation is key to the whole thing. 118 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: And another key component of the regulated system is that 119 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: now everyone can have confidence that here are the rules 120 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: of the game and that can be enforced whereas in 121 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: the contractual the voluntary version of open banking that we've 122 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 2: been in, you beholden to the custom terms in each 123 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: contract and to be planted, there hasn't been much negotiating 124 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 2: power if you wanted to use those APIs. So what 125 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: we're seeing as open banking transitions to a regulated system 126 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: is increased interest from organizations that are interested in using 127 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: open banking, but they've previously been on the sidelines because 128 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: it hasn't felt like the right kind of environment for 129 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: them to jump in. But now the long term operating environment. 130 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: But this regulated system is coming and it's well designed 131 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: and everyone knows the rules of the game, and that's 132 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: leading to more investment and products that use open banking. 133 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: So we've got this regulatory regime coming in. Is it 134 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: fit for purpose? Is it well designed? Because we went 135 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: the first to this, The UK went a few years ago, 136 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: Australia more recently, but still years ahead of us. Did 137 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: we learn from those experiences and putting this together? 138 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: So the way this regulatory system hangs together. You've got 139 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: the Customer Product Data Act that was finalized in March 140 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 2: this year. Then you've got a secondary regulation that was 141 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: finalized last week and then NBA is currently consulting on standards, 142 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: which are like a tertiary form of the regulation that 143 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: fits in, so we know for sure what's in the 144 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: act and what's in the secondary regulation, and we think 145 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 2: it's really well designed. We're really happy with that. What 146 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: we've seen in other regulated systems around the world, like 147 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: the UK, Australia, Brazil, is that the design of the 148 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: regulated system really does matter for customer uptake. And you know, 149 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: one example is in Australia, they you know, from my perspective, 150 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: over engineered some aspects of that regime and as a result, 151 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: some organizations haven't actually transitioned to that regulated open banking 152 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: system yet if they need data exchange with the banks. 153 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: An example of something that made it tricky there is 154 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: that there are certain rules that follow data that you've 155 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 2: collected out of that regulated system. So if you're a 156 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 2: product provider and you're collecting data via different methods, there's 157 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: data that you collect out of the open banking system 158 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: in Australia has to be treated differently than the other 159 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: data that you've collected. So things like that can make 160 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 2: it practically hard to adopt the system. In New Zealand, 161 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: we think that NB really learned from those regimes that 162 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: have gone in front of us, and we think the 163 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: regulation is well designed. It's simple, it sets out a 164 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: data sharing system and it doesn't try to move into 165 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: things like data protection, which is left to the Privacy Act. 166 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 2: So yeah, overall we're really happy with where that's landed. 167 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: Well, that's good to hear because you know, people like me, 168 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: we're critical of the government really trying to get it 169 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: to move, saying well, look at Australia, look at the UK, 170 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: they're already doing it. But the reality was that the 171 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: uptake hasn't been that great in those countries, so there 172 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: was something obviously fundamentally holding back the industry, both in 173 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,959 Speaker 1: Australia and the UK. So do you think that we've 174 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: learned from those mistakes and likely to get better uptake here? Yeah. 175 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: I think there are a few reasons why we're going 176 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 2: to get stronger uptake on a per capita basis, at 177 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: least than Australia and the UK. One is the design 178 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: of the regulation, which we've just talked about, where our 179 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 2: regulation is better than those other regimes. The second is 180 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: that the New Zealand region covers both data and payments, 181 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 2: and there are a lot of use cases that combine 182 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: both of those those functionalities. So you know the fullness 183 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: of what is going to be available in the first 184 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: couple of years of the New Zealand regime is more 185 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: than what Australia currently has, for example, So there are 186 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: more use cases that are viable. And the third factor 187 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: that I think is important here is that the banks, 188 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 2: at least the largest four banks, have been delivering early 189 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: versions of an open banking API, so they're not starting 190 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: from zero. They have been in that voluntary chapter of 191 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: open banking with open banking services and market So what 192 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: we hope is that some of the data quality or 193 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 2: API quality issues that have plagued the system in Australia 194 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: will be pasted. A lot of those things. There will 195 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: still be issues to resolve, and we're really happy that, 196 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: you know, there's going to be a regulator that can 197 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: jump on them, but we do think that the issues 198 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: are going to be fewer than what we've seen in 199 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: those regulated systems that have gone from zero to one 200 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: when the regulated system began. 201 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: That's great, so they've been that on a voluntary basis. 202 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: In New Zealand, we talked about these regulations designate the 203 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: Big Four a did asbbns IN and west Pac as 204 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: data holders from the first of December. What does that 205 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: actually mean, you know, how does that change compared to 206 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: what was in place before. 207 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: The key thing is that the regulations require those banks 208 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 2: to offer an open banking API to any accredited party, 209 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 2: so that that party is called an accredited requestor under 210 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: the regulation. So if you're a credited you have the 211 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 2: right to access an open banking API from those banks. 212 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: And by the way, QBI Bank is designated too, It's 213 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: just that their delivery dates fall in twenty twenty six, 214 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: so it's just as you say, the Big Four from 215 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 2: one December. So yeah, it makes it. It turns it 216 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: from a voluntary offering of an open banking API to 217 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: a mandatory offering. And it also means that you don't 218 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: need a contract with each bank in order to use 219 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 2: those APIs. You become accredited centrally and then you have 220 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: access to all regulated APIs in that system. 221 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: And the Commerce Commission recommended this in twenty twenty four 222 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: Open Banking and its Banking Competition Report. So there's a 223 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: lot of other stuff going on and banking. There are 224 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: concerns about the structural makeup of the banking sector. But 225 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: they obviously thought that part of unlocking the sort of 226 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: the bottlenecks in our banking getting more competition into the sector, 227 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: that open banking is a key component of that. 228 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, we think of open banking as doing that, as 229 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: driving competition and innovation within the banking sector, which is 230 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 2: obviously the focus of that Commerce Commission market study. But 231 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: open banking is used for a whole lot of use 232 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 2: cases outside of that. So you know, at the start 233 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: of this conversation we were talking about use cases like 234 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 2: accounting and tax solutions, or personal budgeting tools, or you know, 235 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: there are a whole lot of SaaS products that use 236 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 2: data feeds make payments. Those use cases aren't driving competition 237 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 2: or innovation within the banking sector. But to narrow in 238 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: on what the Commerce Commission is talking about there in 239 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 2: the banking sector, good example would be if there was 240 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: a challenger in the banking sector that was offering fundamentally 241 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: a better rate on deposits and or loans, then they 242 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: can make it simple for people to connect their external 243 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: accounts and then switch. 244 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 3: Across to those better products. 245 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: So the Commerce Commission also pointed out in their market 246 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: study that open banking peers well with a challenger or 247 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: they refer to a maverick in their market study, because 248 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: without that maverick, you know, if you're just using open 249 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: banking to compare rates and all the rates are the same, 250 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: then you don't actually get the benefits of the competition. 251 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: But if there is a maverick, then open banking makes 252 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: it easier for them to go and allow people to 253 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: compare and switch to better products. 254 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: And look, we've seen in related area areas look at 255 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: chairs ease and share broking, when you have a maverick 256 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: come in, the difference it can make and the customer experience, 257 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: the fees, everything can be dramatically better. So we're hoping 258 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: this will unlock all of that in banking as well. 259 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: The framework includes payment initiation. That's really interesting, sounds quite technical. 260 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: What does that enable for consumers? Are we talking about 261 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: the potential to bypass things like credit card fees, to 262 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: do app to app transactions beyond the traditional way of 263 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: paying for things. 264 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 3: That's exactly right. 265 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: So everyone is familiar with paying for things via the 266 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: card networks. Often your card is attached to your bank account, 267 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 2: so in a lot of people's minds. Those two things 268 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: are the same, but when you use a card it 269 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: is often using the Visa or MasterCard or MX payment 270 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: system rather than the interbank payment system. So what open 271 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: banking enables you to do allow third parties to initiate 272 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 2: payments from your bank account to another bank account. So 273 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: you see this in New Zealand already with online poly 274 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 2: you've got blank pay Volley when. 275 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 3: Cave has a solution. 276 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 2: So there are all sorts of account to account payment 277 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 2: solutions and they will all I would expect transition to 278 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: these regulated open banking APIs for those one off payment 279 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: use cases. To me, there are some exciting other use 280 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: cases that will be opened up through this regulation. I 281 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: often go to the example of the Uber app, where 282 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: you've got a card stored and then when it comes 283 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 2: time for payment, it just happens in the background. You 284 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 2: leave the Uber and the payment happens bya the card network. 285 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: Worth open banking, you can essentially put your bank account 286 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: on file, like putting a card on file, so you 287 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 2: can have it exactly the same experience. You leave the 288 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: Uber and you're paying via a bank payment rather than 289 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 2: a card payment. And the benefit here is a cost. 290 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: One is just cheaper to process an account to account payment. 291 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 2: Then it is the process that same payment over the 292 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 2: card network, So that is the benefit, and then it's 293 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: really up to merchants to decide how does that benefit 294 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: that extra margin get allocated between the merchant and the customer. 295 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: And can we do this in real time bank to 296 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: bank transfers that's been I think one of the barriers 297 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: to date is that we don't have that real real 298 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: time settlement between different banks. It's improved, it's happening multiple 299 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: times a day, but is that possible. If I am 300 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: using an uber type app and I want to pay 301 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: with my bank account with open banking, can I do 302 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: that instantly? 303 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 2: The settlement timeframes are the same as if you went 304 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 2: into your bank cap and made the payment, So it's 305 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,479 Speaker 2: basically a way to interact with that same payment system 306 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 2: from a third party service. So, given that that bank 307 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: payment system is not real time settlement, neither are open 308 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 2: banking payments. But the important thing here is that when 309 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: you initiate an open banking payment, so when you send 310 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 2: that payment request to the bank, you get statuses in 311 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: real time, and so you're basically waiting for a status 312 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 2: that says that payment request has been accepted and it 313 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 2: will cecile and so that should happen within seconds. The 314 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 2: merchant has the certainty that's required to release the goods 315 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 2: or services, so they shouldn't have to wait for settlement 316 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: in order to have certainty of receiving funds. They wait 317 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 2: for that status that they get back within seconds and 318 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 2: then can go ahead with the purchase. And that's good 319 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: enough for these use cases because you know, in the 320 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 2: Uber example, they're not actually getting settlement into their merchant 321 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 2: account by the card network until you overnight or some 322 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 2: periodic cadence, and so it fits in with what their 323 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 2: expectations are in settlement there. They just need certainty that 324 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: the payment will go through an open banking does deliver 325 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: it out that's great. 326 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's no prospect of double dipping or anything 327 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: like that, being able to spend all this money that's 328 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 1: pending or something like that. That API will say this 329 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: money has left that person's bank account. It's not going 330 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: to arrive immediately in your bank, but they're not going 331 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: to be able to spend that money. 332 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 2: Now, that is what it should do with any of 333 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 2: these new APIs. You know, we need to test them 334 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 2: and validate that those statuses are reliable and everyone can 335 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: be certain on the back of them. And we're not 336 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 2: quite there yet, so there is different behavior that we've 337 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: been observing with those payment statuses. And this is the 338 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: kind of issue that has been hard to resolve from 339 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: the voluntary version of open banking because there really isn't 340 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: much leverage that we can bring to be able to say, hey, 341 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 2: this needs to be certain. Can you please clarify what 342 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: the status means or only provide this status of xyze 343 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 2: have happened with the regulated system, there is a regulator 344 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 2: that has teeth and can enforce that kind of quality, 345 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 2: and it is essential to making it work because you know, 346 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: if that attribute of open banking payments is important for 347 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 2: the use case I want to wait for settlement, they 348 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: want a status within seconds, then it has to be reliable. Yeah, 349 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 2: i'd say where we're not quite there, but if the 350 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: system is working as designed, then we will get there 351 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 2: on that point. 352 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, payments are really at the pointy end 353 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: of the financial sector, so we've got to get that right. 354 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: But yeah, give us a couple of other examples, maybe 355 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: around things that are less time sensitive, like appliqued for 356 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: a mortgage or a small business load. Those sorts of 357 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: things will be sped up and facilitated by open banking 358 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: as well. What sort of ways will that work in? 359 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, here's an example of an applet launch recently 360 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 2: called Fijoa that does round ups into your qisaver. So 361 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 2: they get a feed of transaction data from the accounts 362 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 2: that you select and choose to connect to Fijoa, and 363 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: then they round up the transactions that you specify and 364 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 2: then they periodically make a contribution of that round up 365 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: amount into your kiisab. So that's a good example where 366 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 2: it's not so time sensitive. You don't need an immediate 367 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 2: payment status. It just happens on autopilot in the background. 368 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 3: Yes. 369 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: Same with the loan application experience that you mentioned. It's 370 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: really a one time pull of data to verify your 371 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 2: income and understand your spend and basically assess whether you 372 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 2: can afford to service the loan that you're applying for. 373 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 2: So there is time sensitivity on getting the data and 374 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 2: making that assessment. And there are new lenders like Indy 375 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 2: for example, that can do straight through processing with the 376 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 2: status automated decisioning on your loan application. But there is 377 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 2: a payment component necessarily with those types of use cases. 378 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: So yeah, some of these use cases are very time 379 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 2: sensitive and the data quality has to be great for 380 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 2: it to work well. Some of these use cases, you know, 381 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: the background processes that just run and like an accounting 382 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 2: app would be a good example. Your transaction data feeds in, 383 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: but you're probably only doing your reconciliation once a day 384 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: or once a week, So as long as it's relatively 385 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 2: up to date, that's okay. So all these use cases 386 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: have different requirement. 387 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: It's on the system, and it'll be really basic ones 388 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: like the one that has caught me a couple of 389 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: times is settlement day when I buy or sell a 390 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: property and everything has to happen on that morning. All 391 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: the legal papers have to be signed, the money has 392 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: to be transferred. And I had a situation last time 393 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: I moved where the moving man was sitting there with 394 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: all my furniture in the truck wasn't allowed into the 395 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: property until all the paperwork had been done. And that 396 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: was literally just bureaucratic process is slowing everything down and 397 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: costing me money. That's a center for open banking, where 398 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: the feeds, all the data is authenticated, the deal has 399 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: been done, the money is transferred, you get this notification 400 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: that the money has transferred, hand over the keys exactly. 401 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: So that's a good one. I guess a lot of 402 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: people will be listening thinking, Josh, this sounds great, but 403 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: I'm basically authorizing handing over my bank data to third parties. 404 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: And there are a lot of them there, names Dosh, Revolute, 405 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: a lot of them popping up offering really cool services. 406 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: Will be going all in on open banking. What about 407 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: the privacy concerns? Are they genuine? And this is so 408 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: called accredited companies? What do they have to go through 409 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: to be given the right to access our banking data? 410 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 2: So an accredited party under the regulated system will have 411 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: obligations around fit and proper people, insurance requirements, security or requirements, 412 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 2: and other things that you would expect with that kind 413 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 2: of vessing system. But like I would still say that 414 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 2: on your first point, people absolutely need to consider the 415 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 2: party that they're dealing with and decide whether they trust 416 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 2: them with sensitive. 417 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 3: Data and regulator. 418 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 2: Open banking doesn't change the decision they need to make there. 419 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: They're still going to have a third party that has 420 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: access to sensitive information or the ability to make payments 421 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 2: from their bank account. They need to trust that party 422 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 2: in order to grant that access. One of the things 423 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 2: that we see time and time again across the products 424 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: that we support is that consumers basically make a decision 425 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 2: based on how much value they're going to get from 426 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 2: sharing their data. So trust is one component, but the 427 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 2: value that they're going to get is really critical to 428 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: their decision. And if you think about Zero nineteen years 429 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: ago launching a product, one of the things that made 430 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 2: that product better was bank feeds, the ability to link 431 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: your bank data into the accounting software so you don't 432 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: have to manually import it each time you want to 433 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: do bankreck. And so consumers look at something like that 434 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 2: and go, Okay, well that's valuable, happy to go through 435 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 2: this process if they trust that party and regulated open banking. 436 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 2: I mean, you could make an argument that there is 437 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 2: obligations of the regime and therefore kind of a stick 438 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 2: hanging over the direct participants in that regime. But really 439 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: from a consumer's perspective, I think they not in the 440 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 2: detail there, and they're still making a decision about do 441 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: they trust third party with the access that they're requesting, 442 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 2: and do they actually think they're going to get value 443 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: from it, and that's what drives your decision to link 444 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 2: their data in some way. 445 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: The Big Four and Kiwi Bank, you know, for better 446 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: or worse, you know, are trusted institutions and that's why 447 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: we have a very stable banking sector. But this isn't 448 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: necessarily going to be bad for them, right, It's not 449 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: as tho we're going to see all these new banks emerge, 450 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: because you still need to have the capital requirements. You 451 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: have to meet a very high regulatory threshold to be 452 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: a bank in New Zealand. But you are going to 453 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: see that data that banks hold on our behalf feeding 454 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: all these other innovations, and presumably that's going to force 455 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: the banks to innovate as well totally. 456 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: I mean, we've been talking in this conversation about banks 457 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 2: providing open banking APIs, but absolutely they will. We think 458 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 2: at least a couple of the larger banks will start 459 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 2: consuming them next year as well. And the obvious places 460 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 2: and own applications. So if you apply for a loan 461 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: with a bank, they can allow you to share data 462 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 2: from other banks using official open banking APIs. That's an 463 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: obvious one. Another obvious one would be account aggregation so 464 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: that you can link those external accounts and then they 465 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 2: can basically present offers if they can do you a 466 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 2: better deal on your deposits or your loans. And other 467 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 2: example would be if you are a bank, you know 468 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 2: that most of your customers have relationships with other financial 469 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 2: service providers, so they might be non bank can we 470 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 2: save providers or other banks. So if you allow someone 471 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 2: to link that data and get a full picture of 472 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: their financial life in your applications, then you're the home 473 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 2: base and you want to be the owner of that 474 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: experience layer because that's where people are making decisions or 475 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 2: stay in touch with their financial life. So yeah, there 476 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 2: are a lot of use cases that we think banks 477 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: will adopt over time, so they'll be suppliers into the 478 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 2: system but also consumers of it. 479 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you look at a country like China 480 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: which has we Pay and reach Out, which is just incredible. 481 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: You know the big Chinese banks who are well integrated 482 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: into there, but so too our e commerce providers, health providers, 483 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: insurance providers. It's all one unified experience. When you pay 484 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: for anything, it's just a scanner for QR code. I 485 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: know the guys from Dash came back from Singapore with 486 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 1: that same sort of vision. What are we going to 487 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: have to do to enable that frictionalist sort of financial world. 488 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: So I guess we have the building blocks. It's going 489 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: to take a while, isn't it for it to roll out, 490 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: to get all the pieces together? But are you pretty 491 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: confident that what has been put in place here and 492 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: will roll out next year is particularly when you see 493 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: those standards, is it going to sort of enable that future? 494 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I am confident of that. 495 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 2: I mean, my starting point on adoption is looking at 496 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 2: the more than million kiwis that use unregulated forms of 497 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: open banking every year, and that activity should transition across 498 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: to this regulated system within the first year or two. 499 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: Certainly the traffic that a car who is responsible for 500 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: will transition next year. For the big four banks, then 501 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 2: there is new activity because we don't just want the 502 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: system to facilitate the existing activity. We want it to 503 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 2: spur on new products that are going to bring new 504 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 2: competition and invasion. 505 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 3: And we are seeing more people. 506 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: Interested in using open banking because this regulated system is 507 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 2: close to becoming operational. So we are seeing a good 508 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 2: new use case that we didn't think about until this year. 509 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 2: Is can we save a hardship applications where the applicant 510 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 2: is sharing financial information to evidence that they are in 511 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: financial hardship and that information needs to be collected somehow, 512 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 2: and open banking is a great method for doing that. 513 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 2: So over time there'll be new use cases like that 514 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 2: that pop up. But I think that, you know, in 515 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 2: terms of new activity, the most exciting thing is those 516 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: organizations that have been on the sidelines thinking open banking. 517 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: It's been sort of too shaky in this voluntary phase, 518 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: but the regulatory phase looks good. We know the rules, 519 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: that's the long term operating environment, so we build for 520 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,479 Speaker 2: that environment that's going to be the long term, and 521 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 2: they are waking up and making decisions about what they're 522 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: going to do now. 523 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: Recently I had Paul James, the Chief Digital Government, Chief 524 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: Digital Officer, I think he's called on the show talking 525 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: about the All of Government app, the Digital Trust Framework 526 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: that's going into authenticate our identity as citizens. So you 527 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: can imagine a future scenario as an opt in thing 528 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: they've said it will be. But if you are dealing 529 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: with inland revenue MSD or whatever, through that app, you 530 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: could plug into your bank account information as well to 531 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: facilitate your interaction and hopefully the services that you get 532 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: from the government. So you know, it's probably a while away, 533 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: but this is the start of sort of unified not 534 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: having silos of data about yourself, whether it be health data, 535 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: government data, financial data. It's bringing that together in a 536 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: safe way. 537 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 2: Totally agree that that digital identity piece fits in nicely 538 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: with a lot of open banking use cases, and to 539 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 2: make that tangible. 540 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 3: There are a lot of people that have. 541 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: Not optimized the products that they're in with their deposits 542 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: and their loans, and part of the inertia there is 543 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: comparing offers and making the decision to switch. But then 544 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: the next piece of inertia is actually signing up with 545 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 2: that new provider if you're not already on board with them, 546 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 2: And that's where the digital identity comes in. So if 547 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 2: you've got a service that in the background compare and 548 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 2: recommend other financial products suit you better, they're just fundamentally 549 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 2: better rates, and then you can tap a couple of 550 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: buttons to share your identity and onboard seamlessly to a 551 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: new provider. Then all of a sudden there'll be a 552 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 2: great optimization of the financial products that people are in 553 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 2: and that is worth billions of dollars each year in 554 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: terms of money that is left on the table from 555 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 2: people earning zero interests on their deposits or being in 556 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: loan accounts that are not at the best market rate. 557 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: And Josh, at some point a couple of months ago, 558 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: there was a lot of consternation that the fees that 559 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: may be involved in this new regime. I think the 560 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: banks were able to charge quite a big fee for 561 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: these API calls and that sort of thing. I think 562 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: there's been progress on there. Where is that landed in 563 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: terms of what this is actually going to cost open 564 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: banking participants. 565 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the background here was that in May there 566 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 2: was the release of some information about the secondary regulation, 567 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 2: and at that point, the policy was that banks would 568 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: be able to charge API fees up to a certain 569 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 2: per customer, and for some use cases they would have 570 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 2: been absorbable. For a loan application, for example, where there 571 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: are good margins and you're only doing a one off 572 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 2: pool of data, those fees that were proposed there would 573 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 2: have been viable, but a lot of use cases they 574 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 2: would not have been viable. And so there's a reaction 575 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 2: from a number of open banking enabled services that have 576 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 2: either got products in market or planning to deliver products 577 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 2: that were saying, hey, we won't be able to use 578 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 2: the regulated system if banks do charge fees up to 579 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 2: those caps, you know, to the government's credit, they really 580 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 2: listen to that feedback, reconsidered and changed their position, so 581 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 2: that new position came out last week and it's really simple. 582 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: There is a prohibition on banks charging API fees for 583 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: use of regulated open banking APIs. And to be clear, 584 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 2: that's the same as how it works in the UK 585 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: or Australia or Brazil, so it's not like New Zealand's 586 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 2: gone out and done something different than other regulated systems 587 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 2: around the world. But it was a change from the 588 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: original policy position. And the upshot is that the regulated 589 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: system will now be viable for much broader range of 590 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: products and as a result, there will be better customer 591 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 2: uptake because there are broad range of products available. So yeah, 592 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 2: the policy intents here is to drive competition and innovation. 593 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: So if you're going to maximize that policy objective, you 594 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: know it does need to enable all those products brilliant. 595 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad sense prevailed there, because that is what 596 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: the Commerce Commission was actually talking about. So that's great. 597 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: What does it mean for Akahu? Obviously we've got eighty 598 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: five connections or products that you're facilitating, so I guess 599 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: you'll get a lot better quality feeds, the ability to 600 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: do other things, potentially new products that you'll be able 601 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: to be involved in launching as well. 602 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: The main benefit of these official open banking APIs is 603 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 2: that people can create that connection between the bank and 604 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: the third party product without having to enter their log 605 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 2: and credentials into another service. That's really at the heart 606 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: of this because other methods generally require that. So it's 607 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: more secure and more comfortable for the consumer to create 608 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 2: these links using. 609 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 3: Official open banking APIs. 610 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: In terms of the data quality, look, I think that's 611 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 2: going to take a while to be honest, to get 612 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 2: up to par with how it has worked historically, because 613 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: the way it works historically is that these connections are 614 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,719 Speaker 2: interfacing with the weir or mobile APIs of the banks, 615 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: and these are the same APIs that are delivering the 616 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 2: data into their own experiences. 617 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 3: So it does work well. 618 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: The data quality is good, that's what you see when 619 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 2: you open your bank ap so we want that same 620 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: data quality with these third party open banking API. There 621 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: will be teething problems there already have been, but we 622 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 2: will get there. I would say there's also an increased 623 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: impetus to just build products using this regulated system rather 624 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 2: than the system we've had in this voluntary phase of 625 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 2: open banking. That's the real unlock from my perspective, is 626 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 2: that more people are coming off the sidelines building open 627 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,919 Speaker 2: banking enabled products because the rules of the game look good. 628 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 2: Those are connection flows and the data quality. Those things 629 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 2: more minor in my mind in terms of adoption than 630 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 2: the fact that we now have a regulated system that 631 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 2: is a foundational piece that everyone can get comfortable with 632 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 2: and happy to invest in building products in that environment. 633 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: And business banking obviously coming on board in mid twenty 634 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: twenty six. That's often higher value services and that so 635 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: I guess you and a lot of your colleagues in 636 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: the fintech space will be really looking forward to that 637 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: when you can start trying to appeal to farmers or 638 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: small businesses or enterprise customers with new types of financial services. 639 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a bit of nuance on the business account coverage. 640 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 2: So the regulation right from start has required support for 641 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: business accounts, and in fact the voluntary phase of open 642 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 2: banking has required support for business acounts, but it hasn't 643 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 2: been well done to date. So when this regulation got finalized, 644 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 2: essentially the banks asked for an exemption and have received 645 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: that until the middle of next year before they have 646 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 2: to actually provide good support for business accounts. Some of 647 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 2: the banks do that better than others already, so you know, 648 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 2: we're already supporting business account connectivity with some services, but 649 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 2: it's not as good as it should be. So I 650 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 2: think it's fair to say that middle and next year 651 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 2: is when that coverage is expected to be good. 652 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: At the moment of subpar And look, I think the 653 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: UK something like thirteen percent of digitally active customers are 654 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: using open banking, so it seems like slow or low uptake, 655 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: but you know, I definitely think on even on the 656 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: consumer side, once you get those sorts of innovative news 657 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: services that allow people to pay an app using their 658 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: bank accounts, avoiding fees, avoiding having to link it to 659 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: a credit card or something like that, I think we're 660 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: going to see hundreds of thousands of people using this. 661 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 2: I would like to think that we have hundreds of 662 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,959 Speaker 2: thousands of kiwis using the regulated open banking system before 663 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 2: the end of next year, and certainly we want to 664 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 2: be responsible for a lot of that traffic and driving 665 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 2: a lot of that traffic for the products that we support. 666 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 2: And we hope that other people are going to move 667 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 2: fast too and drive traffic to the regulated system. And 668 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 2: within three years I'll be disappointed if we do not 669 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: have a million kiwis having used it. I think that's 670 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 2: viable given all of the unregulated use of open banking 671 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: that currently exists, that there's a good benchmark for what 672 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,760 Speaker 2: we can achieve with this regulated system. 673 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: Well, good luck, Josh, and credit to you and some 674 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: a few peers in the industry who've done a really 675 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: good job. I think of sensibly advocating for this, and 676 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: the ComCom and the government as well for realizing maybe belatedly, 677 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: that we need action on this, so hopefully it will 678 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: pay off. It's part of what we needed to be 679 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: a small advanced nation. Other countries have done it with 680 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: varying degrees of success, so sometimes it pays to be 681 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 1: second or even to be last, so you can learn 682 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: from the mistakes others have made. So it seems like 683 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: we've done that. We're on the right track, So good 684 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: luck for what's ahead and thanks for coming on the 685 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:21,919 Speaker 1: Business of Tech. 686 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,280 Speaker 3: Thanks Peter, appreciate. 687 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: That that's it for this week's Business of Tech. Massive 688 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: thanks to Josh Daniel from a car who for coming 689 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 1: on and sharing his inside view on the new open 690 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: banking rules and what they mean for kiwis and the 691 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: wider thin tech sector. As Josh said, you know, around 692 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: a million kiwis have used services that rely on the 693 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: voluntary ad hoc version of open banking that is in place, 694 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 1: so we actually have a really good chance of getting 695 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: decent uptake with the new regime in place. That should 696 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: encourage new players to offer really compelling services that will 697 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: hopefully appeal to both consumers and businesses. It's going to 698 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: take a little while to bed in and those standards 699 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: to really be worked through, but I think there's a 700 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: really good opportunity here to accelerate much faster than open 701 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: banking did in other countries. We are a small country, 702 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: so that is a benefit for us in terms of 703 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: adopting new technology. I think this will really start to fly, 704 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: especially given that we when we do travel and go overseas, 705 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: we see how other people use banking services and we're 706 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: a little bit envious of it, so hopefully some of 707 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: that innovation will really come to New Zealand now. If 708 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, make sure to follow or subscribe 709 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: and tell a friend We're streaming on iHeartRadio and in 710 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: your favorite podcast app. Until next time, I'm Peter Griffin. 711 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to the business of Tech.