1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: So we've got a new mega merger in the public service. 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: The ministries of Environment, Transport, Housing, urban Development and then 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: the local government functions of internal affairs will all come 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: together in the new m SERT, which is the Ministry 5 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: of Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport. Oliver Hartwich is the 6 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: New Zealand Initiative Executive Director and with us Morning Oliver. 7 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 2: Good and Morning Heather is bringing them. 8 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: All together is the aim as obviously to get them 9 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: to work together. But will that necessarily work. 10 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: We'll find out. I mean, the whole things showed to 11 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 2: operational in a half a year's time, so that's quite 12 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 2: ambitious in itself. I mean, to start with, I think 13 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 2: some mergers make sense because we have forty three government 14 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 2: departments and ministries in this country, which is a ridiculous number. 15 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 2: We also have eighty one ministry or portfolios, which again 16 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: is a totally ridiculous number. So some consolidation makes good sense. 17 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 2: And still I'm not entirely sure whether this current merger 18 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 2: in front of us actually will work. 19 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, why, okay, give me the reasons, because I've got 20 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: some of my own. But give me the reasons why 21 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: you think it might not work well? 22 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 2: The first thing is timing, because the ministries in question 23 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: are currently super busy because we are getting through the 24 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 2: IMA reforms and that will take all of their resources. Now, 25 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 2: putting a super merger on top of that, I think 26 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: maybe asking too much of the ministries. But the real 27 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 2: problem I see is actually we're creating another government ministry 28 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: a bit like MB. MB reports to twenty one ministers 29 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 2: at the present time. I mean in Ireland they only 30 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 2: have fifteen ministers in cabinet. We have more ministers reporting 31 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: to MB or the other way around. Quite so sure 32 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: then Ireland has in its entire cabinet and it will 33 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: be the same with MSERT. So MSERT now unites all 34 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: of these various functions. That makes perhaps some good sense, 35 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: But in the end we will still have the same 36 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 2: ministers now in charge of individual portfolios. So it's not 37 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: as if MSERT will in the end report to just 38 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: a single minister, but there will be various ministers that 39 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 2: EMSER deals with. And I'm not sure whether that's the 40 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: right structure right. 41 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: So you just changing the location, but the problems continue. 42 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: Is it also not possible, Oliver, that you can have 43 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: an organization, the final organization that is so enormous and 44 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: so just it's just so mind blowingly big that it 45 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: doesn't actually matter whether they're in the same building or 46 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: in multiple buildings. They're not going to know that. It's 47 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: not going to break down the silos. 48 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 2: No, and that's the problem really with MB. I mean, 49 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: MB is currently I don't know, six or seven thousand employees, 50 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 2: and at that stage it's of course an organization that's 51 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 2: simply too big to function properly. So I think actually 52 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 2: it would be better to have a more coherent approach 53 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: to government consolidation. As I said, forty three government departments 54 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: and ministries, that's too many. We should certainly consolidate, but 55 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: maybe do it in a more systematic way. Consolidate them 56 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: all at once, then make sure that you also have 57 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: a principle of one minister in charge of one department 58 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: and not the eighty one portfolios we currently have, and 59 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: then you might have a solution in the end. But 60 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: probably also try not to do this while you're doing 61 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: massive reforms and in an election years, so timing wise, 62 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 2: I'm a bit skeptical. 63 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, Oliver, thanks for Oh by the way, can I 64 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: just ask you really quickly we're talking to Nicola Allus 65 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: after seven thoughts on the surplus being pushed out meat again. 66 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: Not a great surprise. I mean, after the economic term 67 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: development we've seen over the past few months, everybody was 68 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 2: kind of expecting it. But yeah, I mean we have 69 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: to get to surplus rather sooner than later. 70 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Okay, Oliver, Thanks so much. Oliver Hart, 71 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: which the New Zealand Initiative executive directed. 72 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: For more from the mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 73 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: news talks. It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 74 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.