1
00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:04,280
Speaker 1: If there's an industry struggling to hold its ground in

2
00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:09,559
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, it's the media industry, with eroding advertising revenues,

3
00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:13,240
Speaker 1: forcing outlets to lay off staff, shrink their offerings, and

4
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,640
Speaker 1: in some cases shut down entirely.

5
00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's grim, indeed, But what's the answer. Some would

6
00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,079
Speaker 2: say government subsidies or taxing big tech to funnel money

7
00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,360
Speaker 2: into ailing traditional media outlets.

8
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,320
Speaker 1: Others are taking a different approach, following the audience, leveraging

9
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,200
Speaker 1: tech platforms and exploring new business models to make media

10
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:35,239
Speaker 1: ventures viable.

11
00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,080
Speaker 3: Thing I keep coming back to here is like, if

12
00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,240
Speaker 3: you're adding value, you're going to be able to find

13
00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,400
Speaker 3: a way to have an audience and.

14
00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:42,080
Speaker 4: To make money.

15
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,720
Speaker 3: Everything's easy or easier if you're actually adding value, and

16
00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:47,040
Speaker 3: so that should always be the focus.

17
00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,519
Speaker 2: This week on the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees,

18
00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,560
Speaker 2: Supermix co founder Xavier English takes us through a collection

19
00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,800
Speaker 2: of Kei we led media startups that are forging new

20
00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,040
Speaker 2: paths in the shifting media landscape and in some cases

21
00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,200
Speaker 2: attracting huge investment dollars in the process.

22
00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,199
Speaker 1: Xavier joins us shortly to talk about that, but first

23
00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,560
Speaker 1: we are looking at some of the big tech news

24
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: this week, and dominating it all is Apple's big AI play,

25
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,600
Speaker 1: unveiled at its Worldwide Developers Conference in San Jose on Tuesday.

26
00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 2: First of all, great presentation by Tim Cook. When we

27
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,960
Speaker 2: finally got to the bit about AI. Just Apple's knack

28
00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,319
Speaker 2: for making the complex simple if you compare that to

29
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,880
Speaker 2: Sundhaaripachai or anyone else. Frankly talking about AI just cut

30
00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,280
Speaker 2: right to the heart of it, and fundamentally, nothing radically

31
00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,320
Speaker 2: new here in terms of the features that they are touting.

32
00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,600
Speaker 2: You know, a supercharged SII which is now thirteen years

33
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,760
Speaker 2: old and has been a fairly average digital assistant for

34
00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,240
Speaker 2: all of that time. So the promises is that you

35
00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,880
Speaker 2: will be able to ask Siri about what flights you

36
00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,120
Speaker 2: have and it will cross reference SIT with your emails

37
00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,680
Speaker 2: and the flight information on the airline's website. Very useful,

38
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,520
Speaker 2: lots of stuff like that. Nothing that we haven't really

39
00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,040
Speaker 2: heard touted from Apple's rivals. The big thing, I think

40
00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,679
Speaker 2: is the architecture, the fact that most of this will

41
00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 2: happen on a device, and an expensive device that is

42
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 2: capable of doing this AI processing. So we're talking about

43
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,480
Speaker 2: the iPhone fifteen Pro and Promax and some of the

44
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,079
Speaker 2: later model iPads and max, so the bulk of Apple

45
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,680
Speaker 2: users will have to upgrade to access the on phone

46
00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,919
Speaker 2: AI processing. So you've got that architecture and any other

47
00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,920
Speaker 2: significant thing. Finally revealed was Apple opting to go with

48
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 2: open AI. There was speculation they may do a deal

49
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,360
Speaker 2: with Google or some other creator of large language models.

50
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,080
Speaker 2: They've opted for open AI, which led to a bit

51
00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,120
Speaker 2: of a backlash I think in some corners, but shows

52
00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,000
Speaker 2: interestingly enough that open ai is willing to work with anyone.

53
00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,440
Speaker 2: That relationship they had with Microsoft doesn't preclude it from

54
00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:07,960
Speaker 2: doing big deals with the likes of Apple and other

55
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:09,399
Speaker 2: potential competitors.

56
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, this goes back to what I said

57
00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 1: a while ago when we were talking about AI and

58
00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,360
Speaker 1: what Apple could do with it. If you look at

59
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,800
Speaker 1: the details of this announcement, it is thorough in terms

60
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:25,080
Speaker 1: of how they are integrating artificial intelligence across their operating system,

61
00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,920
Speaker 1: particularly with iOS. Like they said, they're supercharging sory, but

62
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,000
Speaker 1: that supercharging is being done by basically scraping all of

63
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 1: your information that you've given to your phone, which is

64
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 1: what you need in order to really deliver on the

65
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,920
Speaker 1: promise of generative AI. Now that said, we know that

66
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,720
Speaker 1: generative AI can be a little bit inaccurate and can

67
00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,440
Speaker 1: be a little bit funny about some things some of

68
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,840
Speaker 1: the time. So how Apples, who traditionally like everything to

69
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,320
Speaker 1: be kind of quote perfect, if they start to have

70
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,240
Speaker 1: these issues that we saw like with Google Gemini enabled search,

71
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,360
Speaker 1: or when Google again was doing these image generation and

72
00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:08,840
Speaker 1: ended up with questionable results around ethnicity of historical figures. Yeah,

73
00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:10,600
Speaker 1: how Apple might have to deal with some of that

74
00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,960
Speaker 1: would be very interesting. But maybe they've got a really

75
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,560
Speaker 1: good solution. Maybe they've been working really hard on the

76
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,000
Speaker 1: back end to mitigate some of those error prone sides

77
00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,480
Speaker 1: of generative AI. Will have to see. But I'm excited

78
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,599
Speaker 1: to see what Apple does because just their approach to

79
00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,200
Speaker 1: taking these technologies and making them work really well for

80
00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,479
Speaker 1: everyday people, be super accessible, super integrated into the device,

81
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 1: I think it could be really progressive in terms of

82
00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 1: where we see the technology going.

83
00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,799
Speaker 2: It's quite telling. I think that no journalists were able

84
00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:48,479
Speaker 2: to access so called Apple intelligence at the Worldwide Developers Conference.

85
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,640
Speaker 2: So that's where I think Google and others have run

86
00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,480
Speaker 2: into trouble, is that the day they publicly released a

87
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,960
Speaker 2: large language model or a new AI chatbot. They started

88
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,360
Speaker 2: experimenting with it straight away and through up a lot

89
00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,400
Speaker 2: of errors, so it suggests that they've got a little

90
00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,839
Speaker 2: bit more work to do before it's ready for prime time.

91
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,760
Speaker 2: Because Apple being a bit late to the AI game,

92
00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,120
Speaker 2: they have had AI processing on some of their phones

93
00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,560
Speaker 2: for quite a while in a sort of a lower

94
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,560
Speaker 2: level than what we expect now, but they always aren't

95
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,479
Speaker 2: necessarily first to the party, but they deliver the best

96
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,920
Speaker 2: experience and this is the thing that will differentiate them

97
00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,080
Speaker 2: in the AI world. We've seen some pretty patchy experiences

98
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,559
Speaker 2: delivered by the big tech companies, so if they can

99
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,839
Speaker 2: outshine them, that's great, and of course you know it's

100
00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,279
Speaker 2: This architecture is really interesting in some ways, quite similar

101
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,880
Speaker 2: to what Microsoft unveiled with its co Pilot PCs, which

102
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,760
Speaker 2: is new chips that are AI centric, going into a

103
00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,840
Speaker 2: lot of Windows PCs that are already hitting the market

104
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,760
Speaker 2: which do AI processing on the computer as well. But

105
00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 2: then some of that material when it comes to Apple

106
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 2: will be sent to the cloud, and they're developing their

107
00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,960
Speaker 2: own AI processing capacity in the cloud on their own

108
00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 2: hardware and processors. From a security point of view, so

109
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 2: that will be the key thing, Is it accurate? Is

110
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,680
Speaker 2: it safe? Is it secure? Those are all the things

111
00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,200
Speaker 2: that Apple has always touted. Come into our walled garden,

112
00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,320
Speaker 2: and we will look after you, We'll treat you well,

113
00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 2: we will respect your privacy, and we will keep you safe.

114
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,320
Speaker 2: Can they live up to that promise?

115
00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 1: Yeah? And you know, little things like the what do

116
00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,520
Speaker 1: they call them, generative emoji, being able to design your

117
00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,680
Speaker 1: own emoji using generative AI, Like it's just such a

118
00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,440
Speaker 1: clever way of taking that image generation and making it

119
00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,679
Speaker 1: something that everybody's going to want to use and reminds

120
00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,359
Speaker 1: it of like that Guardians of the Galaxy quote where

121
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,000
Speaker 1: the main character discovers he can like manipulate the world

122
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,680
Speaker 1: at will, and he's like, I'm going to make some

123
00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,360
Speaker 1: weird shit, Like I really curious to see what kind

124
00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,480
Speaker 1: of emoji I can come up to, said my friends.

125
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and we've already seen this year the Samsung,

126
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,760
Speaker 2: which is effectively Apple's big competitor, came out with its

127
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 2: AI features but really like incremental stuff, nothing to blow

128
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,160
Speaker 2: you away. So they really do have a clear runway

129
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 2: to come out with something with the next generation of

130
00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,080
Speaker 2: iPhones when they're launched later in the year that really

131
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 2: is quite impressive. A bit of reaction from some New

132
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,680
Speaker 2: Zealand iPhone users. Rod Drury Zero, co founder, had a

133
00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 2: very thoughtful poster on LinkedIn, which we will put in

134
00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,240
Speaker 2: the show notes, and he said it's going to for

135
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,280
Speaker 2: Apple users who maybe like him, have all of their

136
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,920
Speaker 2: email and productivity in the Google Suite on Apple devices,

137
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,320
Speaker 2: it's going to be a bit of a dilemma for them.

138
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,880
Speaker 2: Do you keep doing what you're doing, which is everything

139
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,520
Speaker 2: is as he says, atomic, it's in the cloud, or

140
00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 2: do you adopt Apple's model from mail, which is at

141
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,360
Speaker 2: the heart of productivity if you use Apple Mail, where

142
00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,680
Speaker 2: everything is sort of sitting on your phone, it's processed

143
00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,720
Speaker 2: by this AI chip. Which way do you go keep

144
00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,680
Speaker 2: the existing web based email model or opt into Apple's

145
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,840
Speaker 2: model where messaging an email is downloaded so Apple can

146
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,920
Speaker 2: build your personal graph and make Siri hopefully magical.

147
00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,720
Speaker 1: I guess one thing is that I am a Gmail user,

148
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,560
Speaker 1: but I'm also an Apple Mail user. So you can

149
00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 1: have your back end in Gmail and use Gmail on

150
00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:37,120
Speaker 1: your desktop, but then have mail ingesting it all as well.

151
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,439
Speaker 1: You could even have mail ingesting it all turn off

152
00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,320
Speaker 1: notifications for Apple's Mail app and still use the Gmail

153
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,920
Speaker 1: app for receiving and sending email. True, still have it

154
00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 1: ingested into that mail app. So there are going to

155
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,360
Speaker 1: be ways that you can still feed sirih that information.

156
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:52,840
Speaker 4: I think.

157
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:58,199
Speaker 2: Yeah. Some more feedback from someone we've had on the podcast,

158
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:03,320
Speaker 2: AI expert Matt Ins from Frankly AI, the startup from

159
00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,880
Speaker 2: within Becker the engineering firm. He says his initial observations

160
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,240
Speaker 2: more startups will be killed off and more mature ones

161
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 2: this time.

162
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,319
Speaker 1: On that note, I guess before we move on from

163
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,200
Speaker 1: Apple AI, because I could talk about it for the

164
00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,080
Speaker 1: entire podcast if you let me. But it also may

165
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,800
Speaker 1: spell the death knell for the rather embattled Rabbit because

166
00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,920
Speaker 1: if you dug into some of the announcements, then Apple

167
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,599
Speaker 1: actually said that Siri may be able to take actions

168
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,480
Speaker 1: on some of the apps. It's just the Apple apps

169
00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,960
Speaker 1: at the moment, I think, But if they make that

170
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,280
Speaker 1: an API that's available to developers eventually, that could really

171
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,680
Speaker 1: make something like the Rabbit r one moot.

172
00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:43,959
Speaker 2: They're the ones to do it, you know, it was

173
00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:48,319
Speaker 2: great concept floated by Rabbit this os for AI. They

174
00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,480
Speaker 2: haven't executed that, but everyone else has been thinking about that,

175
00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:56,000
Speaker 2: and no better candidate to do it than Apple, and

176
00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 2: staying on the theme of AI, a big backtrack from Adobe.

177
00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,200
Speaker 2: Last week they pushed out quietly some updates to their

178
00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,199
Speaker 2: terms and conditions which had some pretty vague language in there,

179
00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,000
Speaker 2: which talked about having the right to automatically or manually

180
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:19,120
Speaker 2: access the content of Adobe users, which a lot of

181
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,200
Speaker 2: people read as you're going to take our content and

182
00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,360
Speaker 2: use it to feed your large language models or improve

183
00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,680
Speaker 2: your products without our specific permission. So that led to

184
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 2: quite a ground swell of opposition on social media. Now

185
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,360
Speaker 2: they've sort of come out ben and said they're going

186
00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,960
Speaker 2: to clarify that in the upcoming tweaking of their terms

187
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,960
Speaker 2: and conditions, they'll make it explicit what exactly they're going

188
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 2: to do with your content if anything.

189
00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for start, as they have said that they

190
00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,439
Speaker 1: probably won't be using it to train generative AI. I

191
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 1: think one of the key things is that anything that

192
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,280
Speaker 1: is stored on their servers, So if you're using Adobe

193
00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 1: Creative Cloud to actually store your projects Adobe, I believe

194
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,000
Speaker 1: from what I've been kind of reading, is that they

195
00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,320
Speaker 1: have to be able to review that for moderation purposes,

196
00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,520
Speaker 1: because if they are storing harmful content objective content. Then

197
00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,720
Speaker 1: they could find themselves in hot water themselves, although that

198
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,960
Speaker 1: may be a convenient excuse, and actually they've gone, oh no,

199
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,200
Speaker 1: we've suddenly got this ground swell against us training it,

200
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,320
Speaker 1: so we'll say we never meant to do that. Who

201
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:25,080
Speaker 1: knows for.

202
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,800
Speaker 2: All the audiences to upset, you know, it's creatives who

203
00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,240
Speaker 2: are already bruised by the prospect of their work going

204
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,280
Speaker 2: out onto the web and then being sucked up by

205
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,520
Speaker 2: open ai and others to train their large language models.

206
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,160
Speaker 2: And then you have a company you've relied on for

207
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,559
Speaker 2: thirty years to provide you with the tools of your trade.

208
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,800
Speaker 2: It's potentially saying we're going to do the same thing.

209
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,120
Speaker 2: So it really is about trust, and hopefully the sets

210
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,480
Speaker 2: a precedent for other software companies that they won't try

211
00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,679
Speaker 2: and sneak in these sort of vague clauses that give

212
00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,240
Speaker 2: them a lot of leeway. That they will be super

213
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 2: explicit about what they're going to do with your content,

214
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,800
Speaker 2: including whether it can be used to train large language models.

215
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,440
Speaker 2: And actually some people will be quite happy for that

216
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,000
Speaker 2: to happen, and maybe they can be rewarded in some

217
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,000
Speaker 2: way with tokens or discounts or something like that for

218
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,920
Speaker 2: contributing to Adobe's large language model production. After all, Adobe

219
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,720
Speaker 2: needs to have real world data to improve its large

220
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:33,240
Speaker 2: language models. It's AI to improve the Adobe suite of products.

221
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,560
Speaker 2: So maybe there's some upside there, but it's got to

222
00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,319
Speaker 2: be explicit, it's got to be opt in, and it's

223
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,440
Speaker 2: got to be communicated a lot better than it was

224
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:42,760
Speaker 2: in the last couple of weeks.

225
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think big business has gotten really really used

226
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,079
Speaker 1: to over the past few decades harvesting data and using

227
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,520
Speaker 1: vake clauses in terms and conditions to say, well, we're

228
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,240
Speaker 1: offering you this thing for free, and so that means

229
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,320
Speaker 1: we can harves your data or you know, you're paying

230
00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,680
Speaker 1: a subscription and so we're going to harvest your data

231
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,520
Speaker 1: or or whatever, varying that. But the advent of AI

232
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,640
Speaker 1: and the way that it's repurposing that data, whether that's

233
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 1: text or video or audio or whatever, it's a step change.

234
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,640
Speaker 1: And so now people are wanting transparency, they're wanting things

235
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,520
Speaker 1: to be really clear. There's no longer hiding behind ts

236
00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:18,760
Speaker 1: andcs when it comes to how data is being used.

237
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,520
Speaker 1: The value of data is becoming realized more and more

238
00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,560
Speaker 1: by more people. Worldwide, which I think is a good

239
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:24,840
Speaker 1: thing now.

240
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,400
Speaker 2: A big user of Adobe products like Photoshop and Premiere

241
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,200
Speaker 2: Pro is the media, which is particularly concerned about having

242
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 2: the content news without permission to feed these large language models.

243
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,280
Speaker 2: The Atlantic Magazine has become the latest media outlet to

244
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,440
Speaker 2: do a deal with open Ai to license its content

245
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,960
Speaker 2: to the chat GPT creator. But the mainstream media faces

246
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,640
Speaker 2: actually a much more existential threat.

247
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:50,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

248
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,880
Speaker 1: Its audience is fragmented and the linear model of delivering

249
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,040
Speaker 1: news is on its way out.

250
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,560
Speaker 2: Media outlet can fight that trend or embrace it as

251
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,680
Speaker 2: a number of New Zealand startups have focusing on lucrative niches,

252
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,560
Speaker 2: building online communities and looking beyond advertising to generate revenue.

253
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,760
Speaker 1: Xavier English is one young entrepreneur doing exactly that with

254
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,800
Speaker 1: his company Supermix, which is powering a roster of popular podcasts.

255
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are several more too, going deep in certain

256
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,600
Speaker 2: areas of content and building large audiences. But does it

257
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 2: work for the hard, expensive public interest journalism so important

258
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:29,400
Speaker 2: to society.

259
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,840
Speaker 1: It's a great question and one you put to Xavier English.

260
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 1: So here's your interview on all of that and more.

261
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 2: Xavier, Welcome to the business of tech. Thanks so much

262
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,240
Speaker 2: for coming on and thanks for getting in touch. You know,

263
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,440
Speaker 2: I've written a bit in recent months and we've had

264
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,680
Speaker 2: a few guests on the show talking about the state

265
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 2: of media, and it's pretty woeful.

266
00:14:58,840 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 4: You know.

267
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 2: We've got news Hub shutting down, TV AND's Hed has ditched,

268
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:07,080
Speaker 2: It's Midday and Evening, Bulletin's Fair go Sunday, big titles

269
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,680
Speaker 2: have gone. Media Works last week reported a one hundred

270
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,760
Speaker 2: million dollar loss. So it is a grim time for media.

271
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:15,200
Speaker 2: But you got in touch with me a few weeks

272
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,640
Speaker 2: back to point out there is actually some green shoots

273
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,440
Speaker 2: appearing in the media scene, including the startup scene, where

274
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,000
Speaker 2: a lot of Kiwi founders are doing really great things.

275
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,520
Speaker 2: So let's go through some of them. You've got like

276
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,360
Speaker 2: a list of five of them, including your own company,

277
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,160
Speaker 2: which we're going to get to, but let's start with

278
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,080
Speaker 2: the big one that has a New Zealand co founder, Substack.

279
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,200
Speaker 4: First of all, thanks for having me, Peter.

280
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,000
Speaker 3: Before I speak to Substack, maybe just the themes to

281
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,920
Speaker 3: look out for here, I think in general, just around

282
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 3: the ways in which the barriers to entry to starting

283
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,560
Speaker 3: and distributing media have come right down at the level

284
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,880
Speaker 3: of Platus forms making that easy and then also just

285
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,400
Speaker 3: for individuals navigating the space, like people can find niches

286
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,760
Speaker 3: and make them financially viable. So substack is a huge deal.

287
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,840
Speaker 3: It's co founded by a Kiwi Hamish McKenzie. You might

288
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 3: know a bit more of his backstory than I do

289
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 3: because he used to be a New Zealand journalist before

290
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 3: starting subsack, but basically what he's done has made it

291
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 3: really easy for anyone to launch a newsletter, and by

292
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,120
Speaker 3: newsletter I mean being able to write and send information

293
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,360
Speaker 3: text to someone's email. And the reason that's a big

294
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 3: deal is it used to be really hard to do that.

295
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,320
Speaker 3: You would have to set up a tool that can

296
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,880
Speaker 3: collect email addresses and that can send a lot of

297
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 3: emails without getting blocked by Google and can track who's

298
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 3: opened them. And on the monetization side, which is obviously

299
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,120
Speaker 3: very important to making this viable, you had to set

300
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 3: up a way to take payments for something like that,

301
00:16:58,280 --> 00:16:59,920
Speaker 3: and if someone's paid then they get it in a

302
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,400
Speaker 3: they haven't then if they haven't paid, then they don't

303
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,560
Speaker 3: get the newsletter. What substack does is kind of like

304
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,119
Speaker 3: a newsletter newsletter set up in a box, so it

305
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,960
Speaker 3: just makes all those things dead easy. You can send

306
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,359
Speaker 3: the newsletter through the app. It makes it really easy

307
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,959
Speaker 3: to set a subscription price, collect the payment, send out

308
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,600
Speaker 3: the newsletter. See you get some analytics on who's opened it.

309
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 3: They help you grow the newsletter and find ways to

310
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,119
Speaker 3: get find that audience. And it's really taken off. I

311
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,280
Speaker 3: think it raised some money a year or two ago

312
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,520
Speaker 3: at around a six hundred mili usd evaluation, so maybe

313
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,760
Speaker 3: somewhere towards a billion New Zealand dollars. And it's really

314
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,080
Speaker 3: culturally relevant because some of the biggest writers in the

315
00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 3: world and some of the most sort of important ideas

316
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,120
Speaker 3: in the world are happening on substack because that's where

317
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,520
Speaker 3: people are enabled to share these things.

318
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a brilliant model. The technology is very slick,

319
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 2: it's very easy, and we've I've seen personalities in New Zealand,

320
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 2: like most famously Bernard Hickey with the Kaka substack has

321
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 2: I think three thousand subscribers. That is now a viable

322
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:16,240
Speaker 2: media operation in its own right. Maybe Bernard, I think

323
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 2: his partner and a couple of others are running that.

324
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,320
Speaker 2: But they're earning good salaries, they're producing great content. They

325
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,679
Speaker 2: don't have to run a whole website. They're doing it

326
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 2: all off the infrastructure that Hamish and his team have created.

327
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:31,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

328
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 3: And so to put it in context, say you've got

329
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,640
Speaker 3: thirty thousand people signed up to the free newsletter, which

330
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,440
Speaker 3: is it's really easy for people to sign up as well.

331
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:40,119
Speaker 4: It's one of the values.

332
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,240
Speaker 3: They click a button and now they're signed on to

333
00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 3: your system and they get x amount of emails per week.

334
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,880
Speaker 3: Ten percent of them are paying you. And so that's

335
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,680
Speaker 3: three thousand people paying one hundred and twenty dollars a year.

336
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 3: It doesn't sound like a whole lot, but that's three

337
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,320
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty thousand dollars of revenue.

338
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,359
Speaker 2: Take us on to the next one. This is another

339
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,400
Speaker 2: New Zealand sort of founded startup that has a international

340
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 2: focus doing really well. Spolk.

341
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Spok and then another one I'll tell you about.

342
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,880
Speaker 3: I think the theme here is when there's lower barriers

343
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 3: to entry to starting things, and when you can reach

344
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 3: a global audience more easily because of technology, what you

345
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 3: get naturally is a lot more niches, a lot more

346
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,639
Speaker 3: technology and media that can target something really really specific.

347
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 3: And so Spork is another key we founded startup that

348
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,919
Speaker 3: is creating a platform around one of these niches, and

349
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 3: that niche is localized live sports broadcasts, and their specialty

350
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,239
Speaker 3: is enabling multi lingual commentary. So that's you know, if

351
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 3: I'm watching the NFL from New Zealand, I can get

352
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 3: localized commentary, and if we spoke a different language, if

353
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,640
Speaker 3: I was in Spain, I could get it in Spanish

354
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 3: from someone local, which is obviously a big impact on

355
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 3: that experience. And the other thing they're doing is they've

356
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 3: created a talent marketplace for commentators. It's another example of

357
00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,920
Speaker 3: the barriers getting taken down to going and getting work

358
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 3: and doing your craft and adding value to the world.

359
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,639
Speaker 3: You don't know if to go through Sky Sports, you

360
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 3: can jump on Spork, be a great commentator and find

361
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 3: work and then make the use of the technology to

362
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 3: again build your own audience. They are working with some

363
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,360
Speaker 3: huge outfits NFL six Nations, Rugby. I think they might

364
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 3: also be doing Major League Rugby in America, which is

365
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:36,359
Speaker 3: pretty cool.

366
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 4: Sky and a bunch of household names.

367
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,959
Speaker 3: Because again they've picked a niche and they've just nailed

368
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 3: that niche.

369
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:50,159
Speaker 2: These broadcasters are obviously realizing, look, we do official commentary,

370
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 2: but not everyone is going to be into that. So

371
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 2: if we want to maintain and attract and grow our audience,

372
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 2: particularly with younger people, we want to have alternative commentary

373
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 2: that's relevant to the younger demographic and potentially regionally as well,

374
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 2: and in different languages. So let's layer that on top

375
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 2: of our broadcasts. And here's a company that's making it

376
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 2: easy to.

377
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 3: Do that, exactly exactly, And I think that kind of

378
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 3: solution is what you land on when you're starting from

379
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 3: how can this actually be valuable to people? I think

380
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,879
Speaker 3: Spoke's a really good example of just where you can

381
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 3: land thinking backwards from being valuable.

382
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, founded by Michael Prendegast and Ben Reynolds. Has still

383
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 2: has an operation in Auckland, but also New York and London,

384
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 2: so very much international. The next one on your list

385
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: also has gone massive overseas. Letterboxed.

386
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, Letterboxed is a huge deal.

387
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 3: It's it's under the radar, but if you talk to

388
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 3: anyone who's a movie buff, they might care more about

389
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,399
Speaker 3: Letterbox being from New Zealand than Lord of the Rings

390
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 3: because it's really mediating their world and their passion. So

391
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 3: Letterbox is founded by a couple of kiwis. I think

392
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,640
Speaker 3: they're still based in Auckland. They also get a rising

393
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 3: trend and sort of community lead media. And what I

394
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 3: mean by community lead media is facilitating as the media provider,

395
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 3: facilitating people to talk to each other and be part

396
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 3: of something together. As opposed to Hey, I'm on TV

397
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 3: and I'm broadcasting to you. It's like, okay, those people

398
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 3: on the other end, we're all shared around. We all

399
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 3: joined here around this common interest and now let's meet

400
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 3: each other. And there's a lot of platforms that facilitate

401
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 3: that and aggregate people in that way, and Letterbox is

402
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 3: one of them. So they're an app for movie buffs,

403
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 3: people who love movies to discover, review and discuss movies.

404
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 3: So they can do things like record the movies they've

405
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 3: watched and leave a review on their profile. They can

406
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 3: pick their favorites, they can give them star ratings, and

407
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 3: they can go follow other people. And on this platform,

408
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 3: there's like influencers on that platform who everyone waits for

409
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 3: their next review and loves reading up on it. And

410
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 3: to put in context how well Letterbox is doing, they've

411
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,439
Speaker 3: just sold a stake in their business at a fifty

412
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 3: to sixty mili USD valuation. I think those are unofficial numbers,

413
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 3: but it's somewhere around there. And they have something like

414
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 3: ten million users, which again might not seem like many,

415
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 3: but in this new world of being able to reach

416
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 3: a global audience and use technology to really nail an ish,

417
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 3: they've been able to find over ten million people who

418
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 3: are doing this and creating a really valuable business.

419
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 2: Probably not as well recognized as brands like Rotten Tomatoes

420
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 2: or IMDb, but is up there and the rich data

421
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 2: that they must be getting. It's why Rotten Tomatoes and IMDb.

422
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 2: It's why Bezos sort of set that up, because the

423
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 2: out of aggregating all of that movie information and particularly

424
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 2: the reviews, getting sentiment on what's hot and what's not.

425
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 2: They sell that to the entertainment industry. That that informs

426
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 2: what people in Netflix are putting on the roster for

427
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: new shows and movies exactly.

428
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 3: And that's the kind of thing that is unlocked when

429
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: you have that community lead.

430
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: Approach great company another great company, a bit newer but

431
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 2: growing very quickly. Girls that invest tell us about that one.

432
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Girls and That investors founded by a couple

433
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 3: of Kiwis who are both under thirty Simran Kaur and

434
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 3: Sonya Guptan, And this is an example of individuals making

435
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 3: the most of this new ecosystem and kind of doing

436
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 3: the winning playbook, which is to peck a niche, add

437
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 3: tons of value to it and then go cross platform,

438
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 3: publish everywhere and monetizing creative ways. So what they're doing

439
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 3: that around is making financial literacy more accessible for people,

440
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 3: particularly minorities and particularly women. And so that's a niche, right,

441
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 3: that's pretty specific. And then what they've done around that

442
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 3: is they've gone and started a podcast where they discuss this.

443
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 3: They've started a newsletter I believe they use substack around

444
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 3: the same topic. They have hundreds of thousands of followers

445
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 3: on all platforms including podcasts and newsletters but also TikTok, Instagram.

446
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 3: They're everywhere sharing the similar insights around the similar niche

447
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 3: to the same kind of audience. And then the way

448
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 3: they're monetizing that is more than just ads. They're also

449
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: selling a financial literacy course, which makes a lot of

450
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 3: sense for an audience you know, is interested in financial literacy.

451
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 3: They sell a book on the topic, and then they

452
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 3: also have these ads across the platforms and who knows

453
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 3: how they might monetize in future. I mean for a

454
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 3: business like that, it's not off the table that they

455
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 3: start a fund of their own and now all of

456
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 3: a sudden they're fund managers.

457
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 4: So yeah, good on them.

458
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 2: That's ambitious. But hey, look they have a huge Every

459
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 2: time I go on LinkedIn, they're popping up. Whatever they're doing,

460
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 2: they're reducing the algorithm really well, they're getting a lot

461
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 2: of exposure. They've got paid products that are generating revenue

462
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 2: as well, so they're diversifying. Let's have a quick chat

463
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 2: about your own company, super Mix, which you co founded

464
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: with Zach good Sir. What does Supermix do.

465
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 3: So we're putting big tech's best career and product playbooks

466
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 3: in everyone's pockets. And when I say everyone, I mean

467
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 3: people who are in Silicon Valley, but also New Zealand, Mumbai,

468
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 3: wherever around the world. And the way we're doing that

469
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 3: is through this new media ecosystem, primarily at the start

470
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 3: through podcasts and newsletters. So at the moment, we're working

471
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 3: with some of the biggest thought leaders in the world

472
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 3: on this kind of new media side who have been

473
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 3: operators in tech and are now sharing their insights. So

474
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: Our typical customer would be people like the founders of

475
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 3: Girls That Invest, people with big Twitter followings, they have

476
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 3: a big sub stack, they have a big podcast audience.

477
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: They're kind of doing this new media playbook. They're self published.

478
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,479
Speaker 3: There's no one else that they're doing this through, and

479
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 3: we're kind of like the back office for them. So

480
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 3: we make it really easy for them to do what's

481
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 3: required in this new media world, which is like find

482
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 3: your niche, nail your value, but then also produce a

483
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 3: bunch of content and share it across platforms. And to

484
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 3: give you an idea of the kinds of content they're

485
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 3: talking about, it's often how to make people better at

486
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 3: their tech jobs or at creating tech companies. So that's

487
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: our little hyperniche. And so guests on these podcasts that

488
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: we're producing would be people like Brian Chiskey, founder of Airbnb,

489
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 3: Cam Adams, the founder of Canva, and elizabe Stone, the

490
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: CTO at Netflix. And so they've got a playbook and

491
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 3: it didn't used to be shared with the world, but

492
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 3: now it is.

493
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 4: Now it's on all.

494
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: Platforms, it's in everyone's pockets, and you don't have to

495
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 3: move to San Francisco to get it. So that's what

496
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 3: we're trying to enable.

497
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 2: Presumably, it's a sort of a fee based service, so

498
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: you charge your fee to these personalities who want to

499
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: do a podcast but don't want all the administration and

500
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: all the stuff that goes on in the background to

501
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: create a slick product. They are happy to hand that

502
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 2: off to you.

503
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 4: Yep, exactly.

504
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 3: They pay a subscription typically for us to handle all

505
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 3: of that side of things so they can focus on

506
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 3: what they're really good at, which is sharing insights, interviewing people,

507
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 3: and so on. I think maybe one thing we're an

508
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 3: example of as we speak to the future of media

509
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: is the kinds of jobs that new media is creating

510
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 3: behind the scenes. I think there's a misconception that there's

511
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: no room for me here. If I used to be

512
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: a journalist, so I used to be a radio producer

513
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 3: or something like that, there's no place for me here

514
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 3: anymore because everyone just goes completely direct. While that is

515
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 3: true to some extent, those kinds of roles aren't as

516
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 3: necessary for like smaller creators, but I mean, we're hiring

517
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 3: all those.

518
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 4: People like we love.

519
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: We're looking for people with those skill sets because the

520
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 3: new media still needs people who have good taste, who

521
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,959
Speaker 3: can produce really good audio, who can edit content, who

522
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 3: can write, and so on.

523
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 2: These are some great companies you've outlined there. It strikes

524
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: me that, apart maybe from Substack, they're not really focused

525
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: on you know, where the real problem is with journalism

526
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 2: is public interest journalism, the stuff that's really expensive, legally challenging,

527
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: hard to do, but really important to society, what we

528
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: would call public interest journalism. That's why they've got rid

529
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 2: of Sunday and fair Go because these are expensive shows

530
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 2: to put together. What are your thoughts on the new

531
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: media landscape and the potential opportunities to keep that sort

532
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: of stuff alive in the commercial area, so we don't

533
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: just rely on rn Z to public broadcaster to do

534
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: all the public interest journalism.

535
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 3: I would argue that, depending how you define public interest journalism,

536
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 3: it's arguably alive and well, it's just happening in different

537
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: places and with different notions of what makes a credible source.

538
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 3: So if public interest journalism is promoting civic engagement, for example,

539
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 3: I would argue that a Reddit post that I saw

540
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 3: recently where someone was complaining about Carmel Sepalone's bill a

541
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 3: really thriving comment section where people were learning about Bill

542
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: and some were liking it and some were hating it,

543
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 3: And that to me looked like promoting civic engagement. Or

544
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: you might say, yeah, but public interest journalism requires some

545
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 3: amount of investment and difficult stuff. I can invest in

546
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 3: stigative journalism. So if you look at the YouTube channel

547
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: coffee Zilla, this is a guy who just went on

548
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 3: his own. There were no barriers to entry. He didn't

549
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 3: go through news organization. He just started covering this stuff.

550
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 3: He started covering scams and Ponzi schemes and people on

551
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 3: the Internet, particularly around crypto. He had a big blow

552
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 3: up where he was kind of he calls himselves like

553
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 3: the Internet's detective, and he does these long form, sort

554
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 3: of twenty to thirty minute highly research videos. And now

555
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 3: at this point he's genuinely taking down, you know, multi

556
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: billion dollar Ponzi schemes with his journalism.

557
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 4: And he goes really deep.

558
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 3: He does multiple interviews, he goes and reads the relevant

559
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: material and he packages it all up in this pretty

560
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: entertaining YouTube formatt.

561
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: There are lots of them, and some of them. Another

562
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: one you mentioned was boy Boy, a great Australian YouTube

563
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: channel recently they two of them, I think, snuck into

564
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: Pine Gap, the military facility in the middle of nowhere

565
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: in Australia. So that got five million views two months on,

566
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: so and really good content, like the planning of that,

567
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 2: talking to their lawyer about how they're going to do it,

568
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: what they discovered about about the US Australia surveillance and

569
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: security relationship. So it was a serious issue but packaged

570
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 2: in a different way that maybe our mainstream media hasn't

571
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: innovated around, isn't as good at delivering.

572
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

573
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 3: And one of the points they make in that video

574
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 3: is they're talking to a few people about about the

575
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 3: issue of Pine Gap, and the people are saying, hey,

576
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 3: thank you so much for talking to me about this,

577
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: because I just couldn't get any runtime in any of

578
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: the traditional media, whereas in this new media world, the

579
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 3: YouTubers can go direct and if there's information that is valuable,

580
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 3: and clearly this was. It's cause sparked a lot of

581
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 3: debate and it's gone a lot of traction. You can

582
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 3: just go and get that information and present it to.

583
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: People and how do we deal with with the issue

584
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: of trust? And you know, the spread of misinformation. I mean,

585
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: needs are all really entertaining content creators in the traditional

586
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: news media. There's a there's a whole machine behind it

587
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 2: off you know, starts in journalism school where you learn

588
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: ethics and all that sort of thing and go through

589
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: and it's not perfect, but you know, there is a

590
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: level of trust in journalism that typically aren't going to

591
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: get in sort of random YouTubers. Or is that changing

592
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,719
Speaker 2: now or are there ways to verify trust that are

593
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: starting to gain momentum.

594
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is this is probably the most contentious

595
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 3: and difficult topic. A lot a lot of people will

596
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 3: if I think about a lot of my peers who

597
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 3: just never watch TV, never read a newspaper, and they've

598
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 3: got their favorite two people on substack three podcasters and

599
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: that's all. That's their full source of all information they

600
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 3: get about anything. I think if I ask them about it,

601
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 3: they would say, this is more trustworthy because I'm just

602
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 3: going direct. I mean that all that infrastructure around traditional

603
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 3: journalism is what's warping the incentives of the reporter and

604
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 3: giving them other goals that aren't just giving me the

605
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 3: best information. And like in theory, it's available to know

606
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 3: something's coming from the Herald because it's this entity. But

607
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 3: I'd rather people trust people a lot more than they

608
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 3: trust entities. That's what a lot of I think my

609
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 3: peers would say, And I think there's there's kernels of

610
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 3: truth in that, and there's probably things that traditional media

611
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 3: can can try and emulate a bit more. The other

612
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 3: side of it is what you said around there are

613
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 3: just certain journalistic principles that make sense that aren't We're

614
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 3: not seeing them in the new media landscape, and it's

615
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: pretty obvious how misinformation can get out of control without

616
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 3: those principles mediating things.

617
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 4: For me, a big factor is.

618
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 3: Having an ongoing entity that actually has to protect its

619
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 3: reputation in the first place. Now, there's some amount of that,

620
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 3: and that if you have a YouTube channel, you're still

621
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 3: playing the same trust game. You need people to trust

622
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: you next time. But on TikTok, for example, I could

623
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: start a new account tomorrow and I could say whatever

624
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 3: I like, and I could genuinely get ten million views,

625
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 3: and it could even be in someone else's voice. I

626
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: could actually put you on TikTok, Peter tomorrow and say

627
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 3: anything I want and your voice as you get ten

628
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 3: million views, and there's no incentive. There's no punishment for

629
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 3: me if I do break trust, because I go viral

630
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,479
Speaker 3: for a moment and then it's okay that I'm gone.

631
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: The next day, I'll just start another account. Where I

632
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 3: can see this going is with the proliferation of AI,

633
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: I think we're going to see a whole lot more content,

634
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 3: and we're going to see a whole lot more fake content.

635
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 3: And when that problem gets big enough, then I think

636
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 3: people are going to want to go back to whoa, whoa, whoa.

637
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 3: There's too much stuff out here. I don't know what

638
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 3: to trust. We need some trustworthy aggregators who can tell

639
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 3: me what even matters amidst all of this.

640
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: So the other sort of thing looming in the background

641
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: you talked about AI, which is going to be massive,

642
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 2: but we still have this case which is really at

643
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: the root of the problem. For a lot of media outlets.

644
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 2: The advertising revenue has departed. And I saw this firsthand

645
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 2: when I was at the New Zealand Herald over twenty

646
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: years ago, where the classified ads was just a cash

647
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: cow for the company. And then Google arrived and then

648
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 2: Meta and they just sucked up all of this online advertising,

649
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 2: and these old media dinosaurs just weren't able to replicate

650
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 2: that sophisticated ad business in the digital world. So now

651
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 2: those two companies between them controlled nearly ninety percent of

652
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 2: the digital ad market in New Zealand and in most countries.

653
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: Is that just.

654
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 2: A facet of how innovative they were and they are

655
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: providing utility to a lot of businesses and people. Do

656
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: we just accept that or these moves to try and

657
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 2: do something about it, either a digital levy, take some

658
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: of that money back, changing the laws, or even clamping

659
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 2: down on them more directly, like some countries have done.

660
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 2: What's the way forward with this ad market? Or do

661
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: we just as some of these companies you've talked about,

662
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: do you've got to look for different ways of making money?

663
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 4: I'd say two things. One add value.

664
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 3: Again, that's kind of the theme I keep coming back

665
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 3: to here, is like, if you're adding value, you're going

666
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: to be able to find a way to have an

667
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 3: audience and to make money. Everything's easy or easier if

668
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 3: you're actually adding value, and so that should always be

669
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 3: the focus. Is not like when is the next policy

670
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 3: gonna make these ads harder for Google to run so

671
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 3: that I can X y Z. It's just Okay, thinking

672
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 3: backwards from the actual end user, it's like, how can

673
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 3: you be valuable to them? And then the second thing

674
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: I would say, which is a bit more tactical, is

675
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 3: this is why it's so important to own your audience.

676
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 3: And what I mean by that is if it has

677
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 3: to come through Google, Google owns it, not me.

678
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 4: What it looks like to.

679
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 3: Own an audience is to have their emails, I think

680
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 3: is a big One of the most obvious ways to

681
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 3: own them is you have their email address, and now

682
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 3: you always have a direct line to that person's attention

683
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 3: so that you can show them value in their world.

684
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 3: And there's various other ways to make that connection so

685
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 3: that you can keep coming back to that person without

686
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 3: these platforms mediating it in between.

687
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree with that, is particularly if you're

688
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: in self publishing. And that's a great thing about the

689
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 2: likes of substack is all of those people come register

690
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: on substack. Substack doesn't own those contacts. They own the

691
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 2: system that they sit on. But you can take those

692
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: email addresses and send them other product offerings or whatever.

693
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: You can track their interaction with your products, so you

694
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 2: have a lot more insight and ownership over your audience exactly,

695
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: so super makes What are your priorities for the next

696
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 2: year in terms of growth in your business plans.

697
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 3: So far, what we've done is prove that we can

698
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 3: produce the world's best podcast content for existing podcasts, and

699
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 3: that gives us cash flow. It also lets us have

700
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 3: an excuse to build this awesome team of people that

701
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 3: can produce world class content and lets us look under

702
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 3: the hood and figure out how these things work. Now

703
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 3: we're working with top ten tech podcasts, so phase one

704
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 3: was learning how to do that and building a team

705
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 3: and that's working. We're working with a handful of the

706
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 3: biggest podcasts in the world. In terms of our priorities, next,

707
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 3: we want to launch our own network of original content

708
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 3: and become a media company. We want to own the

709
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: stack of the content itself, the IP, but then also

710
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 3: the incentive to find these new revenue models, to find

711
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 3: these new distribution mode as we go cross platform and

712
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 3: so on and so on. So we'd love to be

713
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 3: you know, have like the majority of top ten tech

714
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 3: podcasts in the world and twenty twenty five.

715
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: Great, that's a yeah, that's a huge goal to have.

716
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: And you're in Melbourne at the moment, But where's the

717
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 2: company sort of headquartered and do you plan to keep it?

718
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: If it is in New Zealand, you plan to keep

719
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 2: it here.

720
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 3: So I would say we're headquartered in New York, which

721
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 3: is where my co founder is, but we hire an Oceania,

722
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 3: especially in New Zealand, and we're trying to get a

723
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 3: little critical mass of people in New Zealand so that

724
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 3: we can have an in person office there. The attraction

725
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 3: to America is largely because a lot of the best

726
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 3: tech podcasts in the world are from and living in

727
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,439
Speaker 3: San Francisco or they're in These people are in New York,

728
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 3: and that's the majority of our customers. We really would

729
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 3: love if we can, if we can be part of

730
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 3: how New Zealanders get to the forefront of the future

731
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 3: of media by hiring New Zealanders who get to work

732
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 3: on the best content in the world and then make

733
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 3: a mark through this network we're building, be the people

734
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 3: who built that. So yeah, we're trying to hire in

735
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 3: New Zealand as much as possible.

736
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 2: Well, good luck for your expansion and trying to scoop

737
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: up those big tech podcasts. I'll have to get some

738
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 2: tips from you for my own tech podcast. Thanks so

739
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: much for being on the business of tech, and good

740
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: luck with super mix, and we'll put links to all

741
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: of those companies you mentioned in the show notes. Thanks

742
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: very much.

743
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 4: Awesome cheers, Peter.

744
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: An absolutely fresh take on media from Xavier English. You know,

745
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: you and I work in mainstream media a lot of

746
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: the time, and we get very used to certain ways

747
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 1: of thinking. So to hear someone come in with such

748
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 1: ideas that are so counter to the fundamental ways that

749
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: we think a lot of the time, it was really interesting.

750
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: You know, I can't say I completely agree with everything

751
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 1: he said. I think it's a little bit optimistic of

752
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: certain things, But optimism sometimes is what we need to

753
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: get through, isn't it.

754
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, for me, it was very refreshing and sort of inspiring,

755
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: because we've all been sort of frankly worried about the

756
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: future of our industry and our job and all of

757
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. But as Xavier points out, you know,

758
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 2: if you're really adding value to your customers' lives, they

759
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 2: are going to reward you with either a subscription or

760
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: clicking on ads around your content, or something that is

761
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: going to allow you to monetize that content. So the

762
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 2: value proposition has to be there, and frankly, as he said,

763
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 2: for a lot of his peers, the value proposition in

764
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: mainstream media is not there any longer. The other thing

765
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: I really liked about what he was saying is going

766
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 2: deep in these niches. So letterboxed is all about movies.

767
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: Girls that invest is a very particular niche women who

768
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 2: are interested in investing, and younger women as well, So

769
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 2: they are trying to appeal to them as mentors and

770
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: give them some guidance. These are really lucrative niches that

771
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 2: aren't necessarily going to replace court reporting on the New

772
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 2: Zealand Heralds, but they are lucrative little businesses. And in

773
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: the case of Substack, I mean that is actually a

774
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: big business now and is enabling a platform for investigative journalism.

775
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: If you do want to go deep on court reporting,

776
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: you could become a substack person in Auckland who just

777
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: monitors the courts. If you can get five hundred or

778
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 2: one thousand people paying you ten bucks a month, that's

779
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 2: a very lucrative business. So it does show that if

780
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 2: you think a little bit differently about this, what are

781
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 2: you really passionate about as a content creator and go

782
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 2: after it, there may be a business there. Hopefully in

783
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 2: the next wave of this stuff we will see some

784
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: sort of aggregation or something that's easier to discover track

785
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 2: keep tabs on all these people, and see some verification

786
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 2: and ethical credential to something that says, yeah, trust this person,

787
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 2: because we have seen many instances of Instagrammers and YouTubers

788
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: who have been busted for unethical behavior and there's no

789
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 2: standards applied to them.

790
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, I do think there's a slight issue with

791
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: this idea of if you can find your niche, you're

792
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: going to make money from it, because it's just not

793
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: true of all niches. For example, local reporting for locals

794
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: in low income areas, they're not necessarily going to have

795
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 1: the money to spend on a subscription, and maybe they're

796
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: not that valuable to advertisers. So you are going to

797
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: need people who are able to kind of be in

798
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: there and do that kind of work. Yeah, that's just

799
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: one example. I think even if you look at certain

800
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: New Zealand focused topics, if you want to talk about

801
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: a niche in New Zealand, that inherently limits the possible

802
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: audience because New Zealand is itself a small country. So

803
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, this idea that if you find your niche,

804
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: you can make money from it. I just don't necessarily

805
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: think that's true. I think there are always going to

806
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 1: be niches that are going to need either bigger corporate

807
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: funding or governmental support, or some other way of actually

808
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: supporting the work that they do rather than just asking

809
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: for subscription or posting ads.

810
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I think his point really is.

811
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: I think he knows that that, you know, we will

812
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 2: need public broadcasters, and that it's from the point of

813
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 2: view of young entrepreneurs who are looking at what business

814
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: do I want to get into a lot of them

815
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: would have steered away from from media. What he's actually

816
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 2: saying is there are some lucrative niches out there, not

817
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 2: all of them, but go for the ones where you

818
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 2: can build an audience and if you're passionate about it,

819
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 2: even better. And you know, I like his ambition about

820
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 2: building with super Mix not only a platform for other

821
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 2: people to do tech podcasts and you know, do all

822
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 2: the back end stuff for fee, but actually start a

823
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 2: media company and that's when they'll be able to take

824
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: a revenue share. So it becomes a much more significant

825
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 2: type of enterprise for them, So five companies to watch

826
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,959
Speaker 2: there really like where Xavier is coming from, the son

827
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 2: of Sir Bill English, the former Primes of New Zealand,

828
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: so he's had some good mentorship and I'll be watching

829
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 2: to see how they go, and particularly those other ones

830
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 2: like Letterboxed and Hamish McKenzie's sub Stack, which I think

831
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: you know Xavier was saying almost a billion dollar valuation

832
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: on that company and was co founded by a journalist

833
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 2: who used to work for the New Zealand Listener.

834
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.

835
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: I totally agree with a lot of what he's saying.

836
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: There is a huge amount of opportunity in new media.

837
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: I guess I don't necessarily agree with it being positive

838
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: as a good alternative for traditional media completely as well. Like, yes,

839
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: it's going to come and it's going to have a

840
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: huge groundswell. There's going to be a lot of exciting

841
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: stuff come up out of it. But I think Row's

842
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:01,760
Speaker 1: going to be the press as well with the Capital

843
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: pe hopefully.

844
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 2: Otherwise we're going to have to go into our own startups.

845
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, I'll just start a Stubstack. I'll just start

846
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: as Substack when I learned to say it.

847
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 2: That's it for another episode. Thanks so much to Xavier

848
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: English for coming on the show and giving us a

849
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 2: bit of inspiration. Show notes in the Tech section at

850
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 2: business deesk, dot co, dot ian Zed feature links to

851
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: all of those companies and YouTubers mentioned in this episode.

852
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: You'll also find our reading list there featuring the tech

853
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: stories that have caught our attention this week. The Business

854
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: of Tech is on all major podcast platforms, as well

855
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: as iHeartRadio, where you can stream every episode, leave us

856
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 1: a review and share it with your friends and colleagues.

857
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 2: Get in touch with feedback, ideas, topics, and guest suggestions.

858
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 2: Email Ben on Ben at businessdesk, dot co, dotian Zed.

859
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 2: We'll find both of us on LinkedIn and x We'll be.

860
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: Back next Thursday with another dose of the Business of Tech.

861
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 2: Till then, a great week, mm hmm